Anyone reading about the Everglades Headwater Proposal?

[digginfool]

Thanks for the effort digginfool. I read everything on the dep link that was there. This bombing range ridge looks to be totally a State managed project having nothing to do with the concerns expressed on this thread.
The concerns here are totally about any Federal Control being exerted and usurping State power.
We have many methods and people to deal with State entities but few to deal with the Feds hence the outrage at what the United States Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) is directly involving thamselves in here in Fl.

Federal involvement brings NEPA comments from everyone in US tilting the balanced mg't. scale against us with thousands enviro comments  plus politically u have 500 elected officials to deal with instead of a few local ones.

Additionally this ridge acquisition looks to be about 30,000 acres shy of being complete.

My thought is that your info is sort of like apples and oranges compared to the Federal Sprawl issues folks understand and are concerned with here..

I hope this helps everyone.

Gladesman

Actually, it's exactly what this thread has been discussing in regards to RR and to Federal, as well as state, land grabs in the name of environmentalism.  If you knew anything about RR, you would instantly recognize the green highlighted land is RR.  The RRPOA called me to inform me of the FED's plan to take this land away from us.  Aside from general apathy amongst our community, self-indulgent jackasses like you attempting to slap down and patronize others certainly isn't going to garner the support you profess to be seeking.  If you had truly studied the information contained within that article, you would see that a portion of that land would be acquired (read by emminent domain) at fee simple while the balance would be acquired at less than fee simple.  The fee simple price of a parcel of land is that price listed in the county tax rolls.  If this land grab were to go through, it would be at the rate of approximately $0.03 on the dollar, at least in respect to what I paid for my deeded property.  I would like to remind you that the subject of this thread was about the Everglades Headwater Proposal, which aims to preserve the watershed above the Everglades.  This land, and many of the other proposed land acquisitions in process(http://www.dep.state.fl.us/lands/FFplan_county.htm), defines the title of this thread.  If it's got anything to do with preserving the Everglades, by extension, it is a Federal project, whether by name or otherwise.  After all, its not Everglades State Park in case you didn't notice.  Get your head out of your ass.

[gladesman]

My personal interest in Headwaters is mainly preventing Federal jurisdiction over any more of Florida's so called public land. River Ranch experts like you and your lawyers are more qualified to deal with the technicalities of RR than anyone. I've been involved in 3 threads on this and could have gotten confused on who's priority is who's.
I do not agree that I am a self indulgent jack ass though. I am just a person that has sacrificed quite a bit over 14 years to stop the US Dpt of Interior of having its way anywhere near me or folks I care about. As I said before I got into this free for all to payback the help that folks up there and RR owners down here contributed for us in Big C by attending meetings and writing comments.
I apologize if you took my post as a slap down or patronizing since I would not intentionally do that to anyone but enviros and enviro-bureaucrats Federal or State who deserve that type treatment.
As per your advise I re-read the info at the link and still didn't see any mention of eminent domain regarding these acquisitions. Possibly you could lead me to it or maybe just skip it the main goal here should be as u said and I agree to unify everyone and get to the meetings.

'Nuff Said

[digginfool]

As I pointed out in my response, when they state that they plan to acquire some of the land at fee simple and the balance at less than fee simple, that means they plan on paying the current owner the value of the land as stated in the county tax rolls.  You tell me how they intend to get somebody to sell their 1.25 acre of land they paid $2,000.00-3,000.00 for (and in some cases, several times that amount) for the $334.00 as listed at the Polk County Property Appraisers office (or any other PAO).  There's only one way it will happen and that is by emminent domain.   

[Anoriginal]

Diggin and Gladesman have both provided some great information for all of us to digest and act upon. The key to this (at the state and federal level) is to get involved and do something about it. In the Big Cypress, getting involved with Lyle McCandless and his group to fight the feds is the single best thing you can do. With respect to the headwaters project, I really don't think a leader has emerged.

However, the waters are churning and that's a start. So, write, call, attend meetings, become educated, be well spoken, control emotion and always, ALWAYS address the subject from a mature, well spoken, well informed position. That is how we will maintain.

With respect to RR, unfortunately I think its a losing battle to some degree. They are eventually going to take that property. The RRPOA really has very little power to combat it since they don't own the majority of the land they claim within their POA. The individual property owners are going to have a tough time due to the very rules the RRPOA has enforced for so long. ie. - You can't build your camp on your property, etc. Without a true knowledge of where your land lies or, cultivation/development of your actual property, you'll likely be regulated to little more than the tax roll value.

I've been saying this for years and years on this board. Each time I was cussed, called all sorts of names and ridiculed. Well, now it's starting to heat up and, I am still here to help any way I can. You can save things in RR. Albeit, things will not be the same as they are now once the takeover comes down, there is hope that you will still be able to maintain your camp and use some of the property in some form.

The single biggest threat we all face is the designation of any of this area as "wilderness". It is the most restrictive designation (behind "refuge") the feds use. If an area is designated wilderness, your ability to utilize that area will be severely impacted and, the little use you will have isn't what most would call meaningful. 

[renmus]

Here is the deal.
This is going to change things up for many recreationalists.  Not just ATV riders. 
The monster will not just scare and eat some of the children, it will enventually consume them all.  I do not look at this as a RR only issue, SE issue only, ATV issue only.  I see it as a way the State, Feds and evironmentalists will once again dictate how our land will be used.  Frankly, I am tired of the intervention.  Time to say NO MORE.

[gladesman]

At a property rights convention I was sent to years ago I was speaking to Larry Pratt the leader Gun Owners of America (the little NRA). He made me aware of a small book he was selling. I bought 20 of them for members of the group that sent me there. Tha name of the book was "Confrontational Politics".

This book illuminated the main problem we usually have. If u are going to win at this stuff u cannot ever disengage from the fight because it never will end. We who are "conservative" and resistant to change usually fight a skirmish and either win or lose and then quit being engaged since we think the issue has been resolved one way or the other.

BIG MISTAKE

The other side (enviros and enviro agencies in many of our problems) never quit the fight.

Somehow we need to figure out how to keep the momentum moving and our side engaged and willing to fight endlessley since there is NO RUNNING AWAY from this fight as is being illustrated in Michigan and everywhere else.

Maybe the only solution is revolution

We are in a declared war now with terrorists and government leaders are supporting Federal takeover of Sovereign lands of Florida. I think that is ceddition and / or treason and those involved in it would be risking a firing squad if America worked the way it was designed to. The caviat though is that the Starte is allowing this and nobody is bitching at State elected officials to fulfill their oath to uphold the US and Florida Constitutions.

I know that is a big mouthfull but it is the way I see all of this when viewing it from a high altitude. No, I ain't high. LOL

Gladesman

[gladesman]

Sebring meeting looked to have at least 300 good people there. Everyone speaking in opposition spoke very well except in a couple instances speeches may have gotten a bit more meaner than required. I know they deserve it but only mention it because some there on both sides may have started to feel sorry for USFWS. That is hard to gage though(maybe impossible.) Just thought it was worth mentioning.
Upon speaking with a couple of USFWS staff after meeting I saw what to me seemed like some cracks forming in their confidence and resolve.
It would really be neat to get closer to the 1000 in attendance goal that some like me have.

Maybe that goal of 1000 attending can be met in Okeechobee on Wednesday, Feb the 9th. That would definetley widen the cracks I saw forming.

Please also try to remember if speaking to tell USFWS at some point that you OPPOSE the Headwaters concept as well as any Federal management or Oversight of management of any more land in Fl.

Quite a few folks forgot to do that which is understandable due the setting there which can be discumbulating to anyone. It ain't easy to have 300 people looking at u when u speak.

Thanks to the great work of one lady speaking near the end that problem was cured when she asked for a voice comment by the audience of Yes or NO to this bad idea. The NO vote was loud and clear.

That's it for now see y'all in Okeechobee next Wednesday.

Gladesman

[gladesman]

The post below originated from the facebook page Stop Federal Sprawl and I have pasted it here from southersairboat.com

Please read it carefully and take the actions advised to secure all of our future freedoms on the lands we love.

The suggested comments there WILL be very difficult for USFWS to handle or explain to elected officials. USFWSD will think they are standing in a pile of fire ants when they receive them.

Thanks in Advance for taking the time.


                                  *************************************************

Focusing on the Bullseye - here is a strategy pasted here from OUR Facebook page Stop Federal Sprawl (All Americans Can Help note) expanding on what riverrat did earlier-

This Strategy is VERY IMPORTANT in order to KILL this thing Dead. We want to put serious comments into USFWS just like a 270 ballistic tip bullet at 2900 feet per second slamming into the neck bone of a 12 point buck.

************ ******************** *****************

This process accepts comments from everyone in USA. Ourselves, friends and relatives and fellow Americans in all States can HELP US but only if we ask for it.



Please take the time Ask Them for Help. They can comment at EvergladesHeadwatersProposal@fws.gov Comment deadline is February 28, 2011

They will have to clearly state that they oppose the entire concept and plan and Why they oppose.



Hopefully the suggested Why's below will be just the torpedos neeeded to hit their powder magazines of deceipt to sink this USFWS enemy vessel into the abyss awaiting it below.



Feel free to use these suggestions whether rephrased to your words or copy and paste them in to your comments to USFWS at EvergladesHeadwatersProposal@fws.gov Good Luck on the road to maintaining existing Freedoms



Suggested Why's to Oppose Below:

Mapping Data supplied by USFWS for review prior to comenting at Scoping meetings was totally inadequate. There was not nearly enough map detail to develop substantive comments prior to being forced to by short notice of meeting times and places. This lack of necessary data forced attendees to waste limited speaking time allotments on asking questions of USFWS staff. Detailed data should be made available as to exact land parcels targeted by the USFWS for purchase and easements (possibly via Google Earth on the internet) to facilitate detailed analysis of this project by the public whose comments are being solicited presently.


I/We do not want USFWS to create Headwaters Refuge that we know will be used as a dumping ground for rogue hybrid cougar/panthers from Southwest Florida. These hybrids are causing problems routinely down there and we do not want them in our neighberhoods in Central Florida or anywhere else. Do you think we are stupid or what? We are not!!



As stated by Charlie Pelizza w/USFWS at the Everglades Coordinating Council meeting in Ft lauderdale on Feb 3, 2011 this program has unilaterally chosen a Refuge establishment process that avoids the scrutiny of the US Congress that I/We consider to be upper limit of bureaucratic arrogance exposing USFWS's intent to circumvent the foundational institutions of the United States government. Just Say No to this Subversive Federal Sprawl !!


I support ONLY Florida managing lands in Florida. This Federal Sprawl is unconstitutional  without cooperation of State government. Even With State government cooperation it is at a minimum a violation of every Elected officials Oath of Offrice which includes agreeing to support the US and Florida Constitutions.


I/We do not support USFWS's intentions to ban wind mills wherever they can on properties encumbered by USFWS conservation easements (the conservation area) much less the proposed Headwaters (refuge) as stated by USFWS manager Charlie Pelizza at a meeting in Ft Lauderdale Fl. with Everglades Coordinating Council delegates on February 3, 2011. Exposure of the tip of that iceberg verifies that this project is not so environmentally friendly. Even our President Obama supports renewable energy projects and has budgeted vast somes of money money for that purpose and from the looks of it USFWS and Partners are out to thwart his efforts.


USFWS's  tactic chosen to avoid scrutiny of my US Congress mentioned by USFWS's Charlie Pelizza at the Everglades Coordinating Council's meeting in Ft Lauderdasle Fl. on Feb 3, 2011 exposes a level of arrogance by bureaucrats that is unbelievable to this Citizen.


USFWS's language (bureaucratic speak) contained in USFWS's project proposal at pg 21, section XIV is convoluted to the point of almost concealing USFWS's intent to recommend/designate Wilderness in un-specified areas of this project are unacceptable.
                                                                      This proposal will undoubtedly destructively restrict/ban most if not all important existing traditional activities (ORV, ATV, Airboat, Hiking, DispersedCamping, General Dispersed Access etc.) on any and all Refuge lands, the only ones to be acquired by fee simple purchase as explained by Mr Pelizza w/USFWS at scoping meetings about how USFWS cannot allow any activity that will negatively impact any of the purposes that a refuge is established to protect.This result is consistent throughout all lands managed by USFWS or any other Federal agency in America and elsewhere. USFWS's inescapable and desired inclusion of Panthers as a purpose for this refuge will without doubt cause destructive restrictions/ bans and they and their Partners fully understand this.


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[gladesman]

Have put a detailed 2 part comment in on a Tampa Triibune, Highlands Today article written by Gary Pinnell about the Sebring meeting. He was the tall guy with a gotee and a camera around his neck. It would surely help if other folks commented in agreement with ,if nothing else, the panther problems portion of the comment.

Link to article and comments - http://www2.highlandstoday.com/content/2011/feb/06/protestors-oppose-everglades-headwaters-refuge/#comments
 
Other readers of the article (e.g. State Legislators, Congressmen and County Officials) will  take it more seriously when they see folks in agreement with the thoughts expressed.

[gladesman]

A Must Read
Here is a link   http://www.fws.gov/policy/602fw1.html to the USFWS Planning Overview for all Refuges including the Headwaters monster.

This document is long but at least item 1.5 H below which promises Wilderness style management to preserve Wilderness characteristics just like Big C and the Addition.

Headwaters must die in its infancy.

Gladesman

[AintSkeered]

"To help ensure consistent Systemwide consideration of the six priority public uses--hunting, fishing, wildlife observation and photography, and environmental education and interpretation--established by the Refuge Administration Act and to ensure that these uses receive enhanced consideration over general public uses in the Refuge System."
That says it all, folks!

[renmus]

Funny, the word that pops out to me the most is CONSIDERATION.  I can consider what pair of pants to wear, but that does not guarantee I am going to wear pants.  (OK...I am not going to be nekkid, but you know where I am going with the thought I hope.)

[gladesman]

My pg 3 post at 6:57:48 has been revised to remove some overheated rhetoric as recommended by ctry141 at Southernairboat.

Some of would wind up being counterproductive.

Double chek suggestions b4 using.

Gladesman

[renmus]

http://www.fws.gov/southeast/greatereverglades/pdf/02032011.pdf
Question:  Are "they" listening? 
Answer:  Only to what "they" want to hear.

[Anoriginal]

http://www.fws.gov/southeast/greatereverglades/pdf/02032011.pdf
Question:  Are "they" listening? 
Answer:  Only to what "they" want to hear.

I looked at that link. They did the exact same thing in the Big Cypress with the implementation of the designated trail system and with the addition lands fiasco. They acted like they were listening. Took in comments, answered questions, took their time...and then did exactly what they wanted to without any concern for the comments.

[renmus]

They are a great bunch of smoke blowers.  I think when they pass gas it comes out as smoke rings.  I was at the Okeechobee meeting tonight and told the comment "gatherers" that I felt a great disservice was being done by lumping the comments together.  I acknowledged that reading "against proposal because of X" 120 tmes is tedious, but that only crediting it as one opposition was not right.  I suggested that they remark that X number of responses were made for this reason.  

A Civil Liberties lawyer was at the meeting.  His wife is hearing disabled.  There was no resources available to assist her to hear the proceedings.  If someone was wheelchair bound it was too bad for them as the building was accessed by stairs only.  Despite the fact that the meetings have grown in attendance every time, the building they reserved only seated 458. (I would guess about 750 tried to attend.) They said they would only proceed if the overflow would leave for over an hour and a half and return when they rushed the first group through.  Due process?  Not hardly.  I found the entire meeting very poorly stuctured and handled.  Informtaion is vague and ever changing.  They had a woman who explained the real estate portion.  She actually turned her back on the attendees and very poorly read from the screen since they obviously feel that we are too stupid to be able to read ourselves.  I watch our government inaction this evening.  Inaction is intentional.  I do not mean IN ACTION.  

[Anoriginal]

As I read this thread, one thing keeps popping into my head...Where is the RRPOA? I mean, they jump up and down about rules, charging people fees, being organized, etc. etc. etc. Yet, why are they not right up front in this fight?

They should be the loudest opposition to this plan and, should have been WAY more involved and WAY more vocal a long, long time ago. It's not like the folks at RR didn't know about this years ago. Heck, I've been telling people on this website about it for over two years.

What have they done? How are they organized? What's their plan? What are their resources? If they don't have it together by now, it's probably too late.

If I were a RR member, I'd be pretty upset.

[gladesman]

As I have admitted after being jumped here, I don't know much about River Ranch although learning rapidly.
On this issue they must have a plan because they are front and center at all of these meetings with an attorney.
From the looks of it they are as engaged as any group to get rid of the Headwaters.
They are doing there best which is all that any of us can do.

The most important thing now is to maintain the head of steam we have built up and everyone go to Vero tonight.

[Anoriginal]

As I have admitted after being jumped here, I don't know much about River Ranch although learning rapidly.
On this issue they must have a plan because they are front and center at all of these meetings with an attorney.
From the looks of it they are as engaged as any group to get rid of the Headwaters.
They are doing there best which is all that any of us can do.

The most important thing now is to maintain the head of steam we have built up and everyone go to Vero tonight.

I am very, very gald to hear the RRPOA is involved and on the ball with this. That is awesome news.

[AintSkeered]

And, Renmus has been actively inviting/inspiring all RRPOA members to come for a discussion of this with a RRPOA Attorney, Saturday @ noon during RRPOA's General Assembly @ the RR Pavilion.

[renmus]

Actually, the audios of the Public Scoping meetings are posted on the River Ranch website.  You can find that here:  http://rrpoa.net/news/
And the site was actually developed and designed by Mr Bones himself!

[Anoriginal]

Actually, the audios of the Public Scoping meetings are posted on the River Ranch website.  You can find that here:  http://rrpoa.net/news/
And the site was actually developed and designed by Mr Bones himself!

 

[renmus]

overuse of the word ACTUALLY.  sorry.  

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2011/feb/10/supporters-opponents-turn-out-for-discussion-in/

[AintSkeered]

The news article states, "Comments on the proposal for the refuge will be accepted by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service through the end of February. A draft document that includes the actual boundaries for the new refuge will be released in June. A final plan would be ready by September, and if approved, the Fish & Wildlife Service could begin the process of buying land and easements shortly after."

[renmus]

It is a shame that the news cannot seem to get all the information out.  Parts and pieces and not all correctly reported.  See this link http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_indian_river_county/fight-to-preserve-wildlife-around-lake-okeechobee to hear that the Vero Beach Meeting was the first of many meetings.  It is the LAST of the public scoping meetings.  The public comments will be accepted until the end of this month.  We have no input after that until they decide what they want. 

Last night it was repeated over and over that they were not interested in RR or Holopaw.  Funny thing, the Land Acquisition man from a LARGE coneservancy group told us THEY wanted the land.  That group is nature's real estate agent and sells land to the government.  So, the government looks good not taking from unwilling sellers while the other group works behind the scene doing the dirty work.

Am I going to stop writing Congress and figure we "won"?  Oh heck no.  I owe it to our fellow recreationalists, the airboaters etc, to keep fighting this craziness.  Besides, these people have proven that they cannot be trusted.