2009 Rules, Classes, Schedules, Changes, Fee's- Opinions & Input

[fastrnrik]

I am working on the SDTA and Thunderbowl schedule and race details for 2009. There are some things I will be revising and changing for next year. This includes rulebook changes, fee structure changes, class changes, racing changes, etc.

I am looking for any opinions, input, or thoughts on any rule changes, classes, etc. You can post them here for discussion, or PM them to me or Rick Dugan.

Here's a few things that we're already working on:
* Vintage Quad Class- This class will be for the older 2 stroke quads. No other details yet.
* Discounts for running multiple classes at Thunderbowl on the same day. Not sure if this will     work for SDTA races due to outside track obligations.
* Several minor rule changes to help streamline the racing

Also, I have been asked several times about running two moto's (1 heat & 1 feature). This is how AMA and AHRMA races, as well as most MX races are run. We currently run a 2 heat & 1 feature race program, which is how most kart and stock car races are run.
I personally like the racing the way it is, for the simple fact that you get lots of riding time for your money. I don't forsee this being changed, but I would like to see some opinions on it.

Here's the open door to speak your mind. Remember if you don't speak up now, you can't b!tch about things later.

Thanks
Brady   

[derek330]

i vote 2 heats and 1 main.   do ya'll have an idea for when the first points race will be?

[jayman]

i vote 2 heats and 1 main.   do ya'll have an idea for when the first points race will be?

I also vote for 2&1

[yfz122]

Leave it the way it is. The more seat time the better.

[stgsali]

I like the format the way it is. However, if the TT and FT are going to be run on the same day, are you going to limit the number of laps to 8, 8, 12, or 6, 6, 10, depending on turn out for both? Personally, I'd like to see them on different days, but I also know that may not be possible.

[Gulley421]

I also vote to keep the two heats and a feature, I need all the seat time I can get.

[Fast66071]

Yeah, I personally like 2 heat and a feature too. I don't see that changing anytime soon. I think he's just getting opinions.

Unfortunately, the TT & flat track on the same day are simple economics. The turnout has been way down for both, so the only way to make it work is to run them together. The last couple combined races have went OK, but I know it drives Brady crazy to run the flat track after the TT because of what the the TT racing does to the oval. If after the first of the year the numbers come up, then I'm sure it will be split back up. It may be different weekends like before, or on the same weekend with flat track on Saturday night and TT on Sunday. We'll just have to see what next year brings for this stuff.

What about scoring the heats? This has been discussed. but not in any detail. The thinking is that it will help eliminate "sandbagging". I see plus's and minus's on this one depending on how ya look at it.

   

[stgsali]

Make it where you have the top 4 in the heat races transfer to the main. I know it would depend on the amount of competitors signed up for the class. Or, if the classes are light, transfer the top 3 then combine like classes to have 6 or more in the main. That would kill the sandbagging.

[YamahaBabe27]

Defiantly 2 heats one Main.

I think in the quad classes there should be some kind of CC limit. Not all of us have the money to go build huge motors but we have just as good or even better skill. Just a OPINION don't flip out on me people.

Have you ever thought of FT Sat nights and TT on Sun Mornings?

[Fast66071]

Yeah, I said that earlier about flat track on Sat night and TT on Sun morning. Its a possibility.

CC limit? You run built motors don't you? I'm sure the one you chucked on the ground a couple of races ago wasn't stock.....LOL

The problem with having a sh!tload of classes is that it takes a lot of riders to make it work. We have several classes now that no one has ever signed up for. One of them is a 450 production class. We will be pushing this class next year since I think we'll have the tech/protest situation figured out.

Thanks for the input. Keep it comin

[Scott270r]

The Vintage class sounds cool, and yes I like the 2 heats and a main just like its always been.

[supervcycle]

  i'd like to see the motorcycles go to a cc type structure when we get enough bikes to show up.

also the sdta needs to invest into some sort of promotion to try and get more riders and spectators to show up. most of the people i talk to have no idea flat track racing is going on in florida!!

2 heats and 1 main should stay the same

i'd like to see the track widened, the corners are to tight for my big butt. i think it would make faster lap times and better racing.

#38 nate

[stgsali]

i'd like to see the track widened, the corners are to tight for my big butt. i think it would make faster lap times and better racing.

Nate, I don't think widening the track would help you. You seem to have a special affinity for turn 2 now!    I will admit that the wall down the back straight can be intimidating. Besides, widening it to make faster lap times would just mean you would hit the dirt going faster. lol I don't care what you say, that track is still hard when you bounce on it.

I think having to make the main by placing in the top 4 in each heat race would stop some of the sandbagging Rick was talking about. That would depend on how many have entered the class. If there are 6 entries then the top two finishers in the heat race transfers to the main. If there are 8 then transfer the top 3. When there are 12 entries in a class then a transfer of 4 riders would go to the main. If it happens that there are less than 6 riders to a class combining the classes with with similar speeds and riding ability would work. You would still transfer the top 2 from each class. Even after suggesting this, I know that I may not always make the main. Such is life!

[squeezer]

I would prefer 2 heats and one main.  Seat time is great.  MORE FUN FOR THE MON!!!

I think your track is great, I really enjoy racing there.  Recently I went to Ohio, my friends at Kings Custom in Batavia have a fleet of flat track bikes and they will be down for bike week to race, I gave them your number. Also, my friend Charlie mentioned the Thunderbowl and his passion for dirt track racing along with information on the track in Full Throttle Magazine in the November issue.  He put a pic of the dude from Daytona riding the Rotax.  When the "new" flyer comes out please e-mail me one and I will make copies and distribute them around town at bike shops, functions etc.  My email is candisqueeze@comcast.net

[supervcycle]

who's sandbagging? racing is racing if your not going all out your not going to win or place. i'll give it up that me and chuck are riding dinosoars but when you add a lard ass to it, inertia will throw you toward the wall. it seems like turn 1&2 are wide going in but narrow coming out wereas turn 3&4 are narrow going in and wide coming out. i think in tihe infield is closer to the back straight than the front straight and should be moved closer to the front straight and at least try make both corners the same.                                                                                with the current low turn out we need the biggest show we can put on. later if we can get a hundred or more bikes showing up well then you would have to have qualifers.

#38 nate

[squeezer]

I would like to see six starting lines with bikes on each one!  The more the merrier!  I think everyone should make the main. 
Squeezer

[squeezer]

I raced motocross years ago and one time I was at an AMA pro track in Ohio and 65 bikes went into the first turn, what a HOOT!!  Everyone should get thier share of seat time!  See ya'll next season.
Squeezer  #713

[WJDTRI]

In My Own Humble Opinion:

1. Splitting the races between two dates even Saturday & Sunday has repercussions. Double Headers give Brady the most bang for the effort. Would the food truck show up for two events with 1/2 the crowd each day? Would the support people Brady has always want to spend 2 days for the same numbers? Right now, neither quads or motorcycles can stand on their own. I share Brady's & Rick's pain regarding running the oval after the TT. I do enjoy watching the TT's but part of my observing is trying to determine how much the oval will be impacted by the TT racing. Watching all the quads heat up their tires doing stationary burn outs in the turns during staging also makes me cringe a little. (sorry quads). Just adds to the rut factor.  Could run the oval during the day with TT afterwards. (swap programs).

2. Not in favor of qualifying until such time as we have enough riders to dictate such. If I am spending my money on a regular basis and only have ten riders and 6 qualify and the 4 go home. If I have to go home and then watch 6 riders race, I am bummed. Plus, we are trying to build up spectators as well. Spectators want to see alot of riders racing. Two line deep finals would be great. Until we have more racers than two starting lines can handle, then all should qualify. Growing pains would be a wonderful thing. As far as the sandbaggers, I might be guilty. I use my practice and heats to learn the track which is typically changing thru the night and tend to follow more in the heats and give it my all in the final. Maybe have the heats dictate whether you start on the front line or second line, assuming more than 6 riders. That would kick up the intensity a bit. Again, until you have more riders than the front line can handle, fastest guys usually win anyway. Hell, Rob McClendon wheelie past me on the start from the back row going into turn one.

3. Prefer the two practices, two heats and a final. Again until such time as we have so many riders that heats would be cut down on due to time restraints. If we have that kind of growing pain then possibly at that point in time, we would have our own separate venues. Then time constraints would be less of an issue again.

4. Class changes. Hey, personally I could care less what class I am in. If we had a 0-250 class, 250-500 & 500 & above class or anything like this. Doesn t matter, I just want to race. Don t have enough riders to break it down to small.

5. Discount for multiple classes. Good idea. Other organizations offer discounted second sign up.

6. I was talking with Rick after last Saturdays race and we briefly discussed possibly changing the make up of the clay. Adding something to it to make it a little more harder and less weather affected. Not sure how this would affect each type of racing. Seems like the hard track at Sumter was not favorable to quads. I may be wrong. I am also not a dirt/clay expert. I just know I like a nice smooth fast track to race on.  

In closing, I like the lap time that we get at TBowl. When I went to the panhandle, it was 2 short practices, 1 heat 1 final and yes....track time was noticeably less. Even though I had a BLAST, that day made me appreciate the lap time we get at TBowl.

Thunder Bowl has a great loyal group of racers, quad and bikes. But we have to shake it up some how (more riders) or even us racing each other regularly will lose its appeal.

Sincerely
Ward
#66Q
Vintage Motorcycle Class

[fastrnrik]

Lots of good opinions.

I'll address a couple of the points.

* I personally like at least 2 practices (time permitting) 2 heats and 1 feature, because it gives riders a lot of seat time. I've heard time and time again stories like Wards where people drive hours and hours to a AMA or AHRMA sanctioned race to get 10 or 15 minutes of riding. Granted those races have much larger turnouts so they have to do it that way alot of time to get the race done. I mentioned it because we're the only ones I know of doing quad and bike races that way and I wanted to get some feedback on it. I have no plans to change it.   

* I think everyone should make the main if possible. If the classes are large enough where we have to split them, there is a Last Chance Qualifier scenario on the books to handle that situation. We did it several times in '07, but I don't think we ever had to do it in '08.

* Classes- I'm always open to new classes as long as there are riders to fill them. I don't care if people want to race wheelbarrows full of puppy dogs- if they show up, I'll let them race. But like Rick said, there are some quad classes that have never had an entry.

* Discounted entry- Thunderbowl will have entry discounts next season. I don't know if the off site SDTA races will, since the individual tracks dictate their pricing and each have different business arrangements for our races.

* TT & Flat Track on the same day- First and foremost: I don't like it. It's hard on me, hard on the track staff, and hard on the track itself. This was done for strictly financial reasons. I couldn't justify the expense of opening two different days when the turnouts are way down. Also, I noticed several riders had to choose to run either TT or flat track and running on the same day eliminated that problem. The big downside is that TT racing can cause damage to the oval. We can not run TT at night and flat track during the day because the track lighting is not sufficient for running TT at night. It will stay being run on the same day for the next couple of races, and if turnout improves enough to split it back up, we will address it then.

* Wider /track/turns- This is an interesting topic from the tracks point of view. First, Thunderbowl is considerably wider than Jasper, Sumter, and Auburndale. The only tracks that we've raced on that are wider are Eastbay in '07 and Ocala Speedway in '08, both of which are car tracks. Thunderbowl is actually quite a bit wider now than it was in '07. First, Thunderbowl is not a straight oval, the radii are wider through turns 1 & 2 than through 3 & 4, similar to Darlington. I've made turn 2 and 4 more sweeping to help alleviate the "pinch off" effect of those turns. Anyone who raced out there before I was out there knows what I mean. (turn 4 used to be BAD). There is also more banking in 1 & 2 than in 3 & 4. The thing about having wider turns is that no matter how wide they are, the racers will always run to the very bottom, regardless of how wide the turn is.  For example, as wide as Ocala Speedway's turns are, everyone ran right to the bottom when we raced there. The other thing that I think frustrates people is that the racing line at Thunderbowl constantly changes. We move cones up and down, change the turns, grade it differently, etc. I actually do this on purpose to keep it challenging and to keep one guy from locking in a setup and winning week in and week out. (this hasn't worked for Travis Edwards LOL). For '09 we will do more to make the "racing groove" wider. No one, including me likes a one lane track. Also, Like Ward and Rick discussed, there are things that can be added to clay to help stabilize it, however there's a major catch to this. A couple of the most popular additives are mixing in portland cement or treating the surface with a track tack product. The problem is that once applied these products cause the surface to be very hard to grade on any kind of regular basis, as large chunks of material will literally tear out of the track. Anyone notice the large chunks ripping out on the outside of Jasper when we ran there? That's why. A track is a constant battle to keep right. I am a dirt guy so it drives me crazy the way the tracks change, and I am almost never 100% happy with any track I go to. I've only ever had my track to be what I consider "perfect" a few times.


I have a couple of other questions.... What kind of frequency would people like to have SDTA races? Once a month? One every other month? How about the season? One long season, or two short seasons? Dave and I would like some input on this as well.
I have my opinions, but I'll see what the response is before I say anything.

Also, for the Thunderbowl series, would people like to see the TT and flat track series combined or keep them seperate?

Keep up with the input. It's very helpful.

[ovalracer44]

i would like to see a series that begins after the ssqsa ends in feb and continues till about august so it will end before the ssqsa starts there new series. i have about 6-8 quads that want to run some tt and flattrack but don't want the hassle of changing there bikes from mx to flattrack every other week. also we will bring about 6-8 mini quads. i do have one question where would our youth quads fall they are crf250 hybrids with 12-14 year old kids on them. will they be allowed to run the youth class. thanks brady i have been there twice and you do put on a great show and you can tell you are a racer due to the decisions you make concerning the racing. my name is jerry and i had the crf450 hybrid that bud ran once a while back. just my 2 cents.

[Honda85]

My vote is 2 practices,2- 8 lap heats, 1-12 lap main.

One other thing the flat track has some very dark spots when the sun go's down--mainly the middle of turn 3 and 4,and the TT is lit up better than the flat track. Maybe some adjustment could be made till TT runs at night.

 Thanks again Brady for 08 and we are looking forward to 09.

[Fast66071]

We were looking at that last Saturday. I think the 2 lights in 3 & 4 have dropped down or something. I don't remember it ever being like that before? We had a manlift out there over Thanksgiving weekend with plans to limb up the trees on the back straightaway and adjust the lights, but of course it rained and we couldn't get out on the track.  

[squeezer]

We would like to race every other weekend

Squeezer

[fastrnrik]

i would like to see a series that begins after the ssqsa ends in feb and continues till about august so it will end before the ssqsa starts there new series. i have about 6-8 quads that want to run some tt and flattrack but don't want the hassle of changing there bikes from mx to flattrack every other week. also we will bring about 6-8 mini quads. i do have one question where would our youth quads fall they are crf250 hybrids with 12-14 year old kids on them. will they be allowed to run the youth class. thanks brady i have been there twice and you do put on a great show and you can tell you are a racer due to the decisions you make concerning the racing. my name is jerry and i had the crf450 hybrid that bud ran once a while back. just my 2 cents.

I remember Bud running the hybrid. That was a nice bike. As far as the crf250 hybrids, they would run in the youth class since they meet the cc and age requirements.
I don't think you need to do a lot of changing to run our TT. Alot of guys run MX set ups- Fox air shocks, no sway bar, etc. They just throw slicks on and go. They don't just run, they also win quite often. The mini's that come don't need to do anything different. We've had several mini's run TT at our place during the day, and then load up and go to Dade City to run MX that night. Most of the mini's run their MX setups, MX tires, etc.
Thanks for your comments.

[2 wheeled flat tracker]

First and foremost we all need to be and remain very thankfull for Brady Windsor and his staff, without them there would only be dirt track races once per yr during Bike week and the races would be every day for 5 days straight.

I 100% agree that all riders should qualify to the main event unless we start getting 20 or more entries per class, this is Amateur racing and we all do this to have fun, if you want to qualify for a race get your Pro license and go give it a try, trust me there is nothing more stressfull than spending all your hard earned $$ to drive whatever distance the race is away from home and then have to qualify just to start the main event.

Track surface and width, I agree that the turns seem narrower than in the past but maybe it is an illusion because of the new TT track, maybe we need to define the inside most line with tires or a small berm but this may cause havoc for the quads as evident by the (big boy belly flop that happened a few months ago when he clipped a cone). It does seem to effect the Flat Track surface when the TT is run during the day but until we can produce more riders/spectators I would also run both races the same day if I were in Brady's shoes. No matter what condition the track is in everyone has to race the same track and this is dirt track and not Asphalt racing sometimes this creates a new challenge for bike set up tire selection and even line selection.

The most important suggestion I personally would like to see improved is the pace of the program, there seems to be more down time than needed, could we have the line ups posted right after practice have our riders meeting and then go right into the heat races? I think you guys fixed the PA system and that will also be a tremendous help to have someone calling out the classes for the next race on a consistant basis.

All of these suggestions and topics are not going to really matter if we do not help Brady grow this sport in Florida. Ward has the list and is going to maintain it and grow it, this solves the problem of people that do not frequent this web site, please add a spot on the entry/membership form and have Jennifer/Liz make sure they include the info and it is legible, enter the info into an Excel spreadsheet and send to Ward each wk after the races, this will make sure we are inviting everyone that has signed up at least once.

Spectators:
Richard does a fantastic job creating the flyer's but who is taking responsibility to make sure the flyer's are being distributed to the local shops? I drag as many people possible with us as spectators but they are not going to show up on a consistant basis due to being 2 hrs away. The local Ocala people are our target audience and the ones that we need to get the flyer's to. I believe the local Motorcycle shops including Harley dealerships are a no brainer and most have a board to post these types of flyer's. Can we post flyer's on the fence at Ocala Speedway? I think they race on Fridays so the dates would not conflict. How about go cart shops or speed shops in Ocala? Truck accessory/wheel tire stores, feeds stores, heavy equip rental stores, Asphalt plants, trucking Companies, Auto parts stores, OK you get the idea Marketing 101 right! most of these shops will require a first time personal visit to explain and introduce yourself unless you already have established relationships with the Managers/Owners (Brady/Rick this were we need your Ocala heritage to kick in). So lets says this plan works and we start to see new faces walking around the pits and spectating our races, now it becomes our job as racers to capture these new people and show them how friendly we are, this means say hello and ask them if this is there first time and how do they like it would they ever like to race yada yada. When these new people come through the gate we need to be able to hand them a flyer that includes not only the next race but the entire series so they can take the flyer home and show there friends and bring them back next time.

Economic times are worst than ever right now and I'm sure that has an effect on all of these things but we still need to try if we want to continue to have a place to race/ride TT & Flat Track.

Respectfully submitted
Shawn McNary
Motorcycle #72
Dork on a quad#76