What I don't like about our current president

[digginfool]

JackL, you take the Treaty of Tripoli out of context.  American shipping was being obliterated by the pirates operating out of Tripoli and the Treaty was demanded for, in its context, to prove we had no latent allegiance to England, with whom the Barbary Coast was in what amounted to a full scale war.  We HAD to present that treaty to them in that manner so that we could get relief from the pirate activities and we could resume commerce in the Mediterranean.  As for the Declaration and the Constitution, there was great motivation for the men of those times to seperate church and state.  The church ran rough-shod over England and our founding fathers never wanted to live under that type of rule again.  The seperation of church and state had more to do with rule by the people and defining our new government as secular, and writing The Constitution in that mindset, was their means of guaranteeing that the church would never rule this new country.  It had nothing to do with declaring the people or leaders of this country as god-free or aetheists, as so few, in their inimitable, disgusting way, try to cram down the throats of the majority.

[JackL]

Here's another fact for you Wiburz.  If Bill Clinton had gone in on any of the opportunities he had to kill Osama and the other leaders of al Qaeda and the Taliban, 3,000+ wouldn't have died in a single day on September 11, 2001!  Get over yourself.  More people die in a month on our nation's roads and highways than have died in the four years of this conflict.  Are you crying for them?  These soldiers joined the armed forces for what it stands for.  There was a calling they had to answer and that calling is freedom  Do you think for a second there hasn't been another "9/11" because the work our soldiers are doing in the Middle East hasn't made it possible?  What would these people have wrought upon us if we had continued Clinton's head in the sand response he made famous during his administration?  Why do you think they attacked us in the first place?  Because Clinton had proven this country is full of a bunch of panty-waste, tree huggin' Democratic pous-says that would rather look for a way to appease a bully than knock him on his ass.

If we would have just nuked Afghanistan like I wanted, none of our boys would have had to die and the world and OPEC would fear us, like they should. At this point we look like punks and our country is broke for years to come. Great job GW did making a bunch of people with rocks, sticks and camels hate us enough to strap on bombs and blow themselves up to try and get us.

National security hasn't been improved one bit since 9/11, and still no attacks on our soil. Just as always, these people are free to come and go here yet they do nothing. I have always believed they have all sorts of bad intentions against us till the moment they see what is going on and assimilate rather quickly with the first taxi driver job or 7/11 position they can get. Very few of the 'Saudi' hijackers knew they were going to die that day, they thought it was a regular hijacking. They were probably told they would be flying to Afghanistan, not into a building.

This war was the most colossal waste of time, money and resources in history, and as far as I am concerned GW and Cheney should be tried for treason.

[digginfool]

If we would have just nuked Afghanistan like I wanted, none of our boys would have had to die and the world and OPEC would fear us, like they should. At this point we look like punks and our country is broke for years to come. Great job GW did making a bunch of people with rocks, sticks and camels hate us enough to strap on bombs and blow themselves up to try and get us.

National security hasn't been improved one bit since 9/11, and still no attacks on our soil. Just as always, these people are free to come and go here yet they do nothing. I have always believed they have all sorts of bad intentions against us till the moment they see what is going on and assimilate rather quickly with the first taxi driver job or 7/11 position they can get. Very few of the 'Saudi' hijackers knew they were going to die that day, they thought it was a regular hijacking. They were probably told they would be flying to Afghanistan, not into a building.

This war was the most colossal waste of time, money and resources in history, and as far as I am concerned GW and Cheney should be tried for treason.

What you propose is called genocide and it would hardly be an appropriate response.  Study your history a little bit and you will find those same cave dwellers kicked the sh*t out of Russia (albeit with some shoulder fired help from the good old U.S.)  The suicide bomber 'phenomenon' is hardly new.  Fanatics have been blowing themselves up in every war going back to the invention of gun powder (we had our own suicide bombers during the Civil War - they piloted the original submarines).  So big deal; a bunch of slick-talking oil sheiks convinced a few hundred camel jocks to die for their taste of virginal flesh.  Don't lose sight of the fact that both sides are fighting for control of oil.  It's nothing new; every war in history can be traced back to an economic catalyst.  Without this colossal waste of time, money and resources, it's quite possible your forays into the Holeylands would be on foot.  And if Bush and Cheney should be tried for treason, then you better line up nearly all of Washington, including the previous administration.  After all, most of the intelligence used to 'justify' this conflict was collected in the years prior to GW ever taking office.  Only time and an inconvenient election schedule kept Clinton from pulling the trigger.  Don't believe for a second the outcome would have been any different if not for a few 'hanging chads.'

[FishaHallic]

Fish, I will also be chiming in but I'm headed out of town until Tuesday.  Unless my points have been covered, you can be sure your points will be picked apart piece-by-piece.  That post is typical, left wing puppeteering.  Talk about an earpiece; whose on the other end of yours?  I can't wait for the day I meet a Democrat that can actually bring an educated, fact-based argument to the table.  Can you actually think for yourself?  BTW, have you ever read the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution of The United States?  Have you ever read the histories of the men who wrote and signed these documents?  With one or two exceptions, they were all deeply religious men of God.  That doesn't mean I agree with all of this administration's agendas but to judge a president's performance on the basis of the deepness of his religious beliefs is asinine as well as a number of your other points.  I regret I have but one minute to devote to this argument.  I shall return!   

Here is a fact base argument that can't be argued:

This country will be hitting the big 4,000 for number of young men and women who have died in the Iraq conflict. That is undisputable. We should have left Saddam in charge and there would be 4,000 young people , like ourselves, alive now. What a waste! I am a suporter of our armed services but not for the Iraq conflict, a waste of American lives and money. So sad!

Here's another fact for you Wiburz.  If Bill Clinton had gone in on any of the opportunities he had to kill Osama and the other leaders of al Qaeda and the Taliban, 3,000+ wouldn't have died in a single day on September 11, 2001!  Get over yourself.  More people die in a month on our nation's roads and highways than have died in the four years of this conflict.  Are you crying for them?  These soldiers joined the armed forces for what it stands for.  There was a calling they had to answer and that calling is freedom  Do you think for a second there hasn't been another "9/11" because the work our soldiers are doing in the Middle East hasn't made it possible?  What would these people have wrought upon us if we had continued Clinton's head in the sand response he made famous during his administration?  Why do you think they attacked us in the first place?  Because Clinton had proven this country is full of a bunch of panty-waste, tree huggin' Democratic pous-says that would rather look for a way to appease a bully than knock him on his ass.

Diggin, Diggin, Diggin   .  You are the typical extreme right wing republican, you fit this example to a T.  I am reading a great book right now by John Dean called Conservatives without Conscience in the 1st chapter he goes about trying to explain what a right wing conservative is and I swear in the end he mentions your name.  John goes to great lengths to describe who these people are and what they want and it is not a pretty picture.  And one last thing to save you from trying to figure out who John Dean is, he was part of the Nixon administration (that's right a republican, and a conservative at that) until the extreme right wing went after him to blame him for the whole Nixon fiasco.  Then and only then did he learn what real right wing conservatives are all about they are nasty, morally corrupt, arrogant, hypocritical and do not like change.  Time is a changing son your part of the old guard, hop on over to the center the water is not that cold and the people are a lot nicer.

[JackL]

JackL, you take the Treaty of Tripoli out of context.  American shipping was being obliterated by the pirates operating out of Tripoli and the Treaty was demanded for, in its context, to prove we had no latent allegiance to England, with whom the Barbary Coast was in what amounted to a full scale war.  We HAD to present that treaty to them in that manner so that we could get relief from the pirate activities and we could resume commerce in the Mediterranean.  As for the Declaration and the Constitution, there was great motivation for the men of those times to seperate church and state.  The church ran rough-shod over England and our founding fathers never wanted to live under that type of rule again.  The seperation of church and state had more to do with rule by the people and defining our new government as secular, and writing The Constitution in that mindset, was their means of guaranteeing that the church would never rule this new country.  It had nothing to do with declaring the people or leaders of this country as god-free or aetheists, as so few, in their inimitable, disgusting way, try to cram down the throats of the majority.

I must say diggin, I look forward to some day shaking your hand and riding the little land we have left.

You are certainly the most intelligent and skilled debater I have encountered in a very long time.
I do not see the agenda of the ACLU and other groups you allude to as trying to cram atheism down anyone's throat, exactly the opposite in fact. Freedom of religion for everyone. Certain groups have attempted to re write history to their liking, but it just doesn't hold water IMO as I tried to illustrate in my other post.
I could write paragraph upon paragraph about the founding fathers intentions, as well as their beliefs, but I am tired and I doubt anyone here cares to read it anyway.

[JackL]

What you propose is called genocide and it would hardly be an appropriate response.  Study your history a little bit and you will find those same cave dwellers kicked the sh*t out of Russia (albeit with some shoulder fired help from the good old U.S.)  The suicide bomber 'phenomenon' is hardly new.  Fanatics have been blowing themselves up in every war going back to the invention of gun powder (we had our own suicide bombers during the Civil War - they piloted the original submarines).  So big deal; a bunch of slick-talking oil sheiks convinced a few hundred camel jocks to die for their taste of virginal flesh.  Don't lose sight of the fact that both sides are fighting for control of oil.  It's nothing new; every war in history can be traced back to an economic catalyst.  Without this colossal waste of time, money and resources, it's quite possible your forays into the Holeylands would be on foot.  And if Bush and Cheney should be tried for treason, then you better line up nearly all of Washington, including the previous administration.  After all, most of the intelligence used to 'justify' this conflict was collected in the years prior to GW ever taking office.  Only time and an inconvenient election schedule kept Clinton from pulling the trigger.  Don't believe for a second the outcome would have been any different if not for a few 'hanging chads.'

We didn't call it genocide in Japan, we called it kicking azz, winning a war and being victorious. I didn't propose wiping the country off the map, just showing the world we are number one because of our superior technology and not being afraid to use it. No sense in having a gun if you are going to pick up a stick when confronted with evil IMO.

I believe if we would have hit Afghanistan hard and fast, the entire middle east would be on notice that we are still the big dog and have no intentions of rolling over, and gas would be $1.00 a gallon. Saddam would be our lapdog and gave us Osama in a heartbeat to save his butt right along with the Saudis. Instead, we have mortgaged our countries future and put ourselves in a more vulnerable position than at any other time in recent history. If we needed to fight a ground war somewhere else right now for who knows what reason, the draft would have to be reinstated or use the nuclear option against someone that doesn't truly deserve it.

Hey, the way it looks now we might just give Iran a taste of the fat man if this new GW middle east 'peace initiative' fails.

[digginfool]

We didn't call it genocide in Japan, we called it kicking azz, winning a war and being victorious. I didn't propose wiping the country off the map, just showing the world we are number one because of our superior technology and not being afraid to use it. No sense in having a gun if you are going to pick up a stick when confronted with evil IMO.

I believe if we would have hit Afghanistan hard and fast, the entire middle east would be on notice that we are still the big dog and have no intentions of rolling over, and gas would be $1.00 a gallon. Saddam would be our lapdog and gave us Osama in a heartbeat to save his butt right along with the Saudis. Instead, we have mortgaged our countries future and put ourselves in a more vulnerable position than at any other time in recent history. If we needed to fight a ground war somewhere else right now for who knows what reason, the draft would have to be reinstated or use the nuclear option against someone that doesn't truly deserve it.

Hey, the way it looks now we might just give Iran a taste of the fat man if this new GW middle east 'peace initiative' fails.

Your point goes back to what I said about appropriate response.  Japan had proven, after four years of a viciously fought war in the Pacific and the death of hundreds of thousands of American service men, that a ground assault of Japan would be horrific in terms of human loss and economic hardship.  Americans were slowly but surely being crippled at home by the costs and hardships caused by WWII.  It was crucial to the future of this country that the bleeding stop in a big way and that is what prompted the well timed and appropriate response at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  As it turned out, Japan was in far worse shape than had been imagined and probably would have crumbled anyways.  Nevertheless, it ended the war and showed the world what a nuclear weapon was capable of.  Yes, it proved we were, finally, the true world power and paved the way for nuclear build-up and proliferation, but at the same time, kept everybody's finger off the trigger for fear of unleashing the nuclear devastation on themselves.  There is no winner in a modern nuclear war.  Imagine the response of the world had we set off a nuclear device in Afghanistan.  What about the nuclear powers to the immediate north and east?  What would their response be to the fallout?  Finally, would it truly make any sense to drop a nuclear bomb on an enemy that you really didn't know the location of?  Mountains make pretty good blast shields.  About the only thing that would have been accomplished is the collapse of any tunnels or caves within a few miles of the epicenter.  After that, little energy would have been left, having been directed upwards by the landscape.

As far as Iran goes, they have been probably our most dangerous foe for a long time.  They literally control the flow of oil out of the Persian Gulf and out to the world.  Don't believe me?  Get a globe, find Iran and find a little strip of water called the Straits of Hormuz.  All the oil leaving that area by tanker flows through that little strip of water and the Iranian shoreline bristles with Chinese Silkworm anti-ship missle batteries.  If Iran is allowed to develop nuclear weapons, they will single handedly control over half of the world's oil supplies and they will rule the Middle East.  The only thing stopping Ahmadinejad from implementing this is knowledge of world response.  However, with nuclear tipped missles (Iran is very technologically advanced and have missles they have developed that have the range, accuracy and capacity to deliver nuclear warheads hundreds of miles away), he can control the entire Middle East and would force any response to require the use of nuclear weapons, making the oil fields nuclear wastelands.  He effectively wins because everybody loses if he doesn't get his way.  In one foul swoop, Iran becomes the most powerful country in the world and $3.00 per gallon gasoline will seem ridiculously cheap.  This is the reality few Americans contemplate when thinking about the Middle East.  All they can seem to think about is the death of the kid that grew up down the street.  Yes, it's sad to see someone go before their time (does any of us really know what 'our time' is, anyways?) but there are real issues out there that require the use of America's military and until the day we are oil independent, those issues reside in the Middle East.  All wars have their roots in economics and the mother of all wars is looming if we don't exert our influence.  There is no way the rest of the world, let alone the United States, will stand by and let a single country dictate the cost of energy.  An oil free future is decades, possibly lifetimes, away and until that time, there will be oil conflicts.  The cost of war pales in comparison to the cost of energy should someone like Ahmadinejad ever control the world's oil spigot.  Why do you think the U.S. is getting support from the world in the Iranian crises?  Because of the truth that is truly inconvenient: You will either pay now or pay dearly later.

[digginfool]

Diggin, Diggin, Diggin   .  You are the typical extreme right wing republican, you fit this example to a T.  I am reading a great book right now by John Dean called Conservatives without Conscience in the 1st chapter he goes about trying to explain what a right wing conservative is and I swear in the end he mentions your name.  John goes to great lengths to describe who these people are and what they want and it is not a pretty picture.  And one last thing to save you from trying to figure out who John Dean is, he was part of the Nixon administration (that's right a republican, and a conservative at that) until the extreme right wing went after him to blame him for the whole Nixon fiasco.  Then and only then did he learn what real right wing conservatives are all about they are nasty, morally corrupt, arrogant, hypocritical and do not like change.  Time is a changing son your part of the old guard, hop on over to the center the water is not that cold and the people are a lot nicer.

I am well aware of who John Dean is and his little book must be taken in context.  He wrote it after being outed by his comrades.  It is human nature to lash out when you've been hurt.  And why not write the book?  Any hope of resurrecting a political life was gone, so the next best thing is put a little spin on an old story, poke a finger in the eyes of your accusers and call them mean, corrupt and immoral (are you sure he wasn't talking about Bill and Hillary?), put it on paper and watch all the little people go buy it and say "SEE?  SEE THAT?  I TOLD YOU THE DEMOCRATS WERE RIGHT!!"  It's pure political b.s.  As far as me being a so-called right-wing, fanatical neo-con, nothing could be further from the truth.  I walk the middle ground on matters of personal freedom but when it comes to business, economics and finance, I'm pure Republican, baby.  There's more to life than money but there's more fun in life with money.  I subscribe to the ideals of let the people choose how to spend their money and not have government spoon feed it to a bunch of professional baby-puking couch potatoes.  But, then again, that's another topic for another day.  All you whiners out there crying about the inequalities of tax breaks need to get a reality check.  Give the little man a couple hundred bucks in tax breaks, he runs out and buys a big screen tv.  Give Daddy Big Bucks a few thousand dollars in tax breaks and he invests it into the stock market, giving business a boost and building the economy.  Sounds hard core but that's the way it works.  And by the way, Daddy Big Bucks is still paying huge amounts of taxes even though his tax break is more than all the taxes you pay (or possibly more than you make).  Unless you are a latent fan of Karl Marx, I would much rather have Republicans running this country.

[trx#9]

Give the rich a tax break they need it. OK then, but were going to get rid of right offs then. Most large companies pay hardly no taxes right now, they fudge there books.
We need a flat tax across the board. 10% to everyone and no right offs.
Some billionaire guy that just came forward and said he pays less taxes than his workers do, that are making 50 to 60 thousand a year. I'm sure someone will remember his name.
Giving large tax breaks to the rich will result in no middle class. If you want to be like south America or Mexico OK then don't beatch when it happens. I going to car jack your a$$ first.
I think were heading there anyways with all the minority's taking over. We will probably have to go back home to our mother land of Europe in a few years. Soon as they can out vote us were screwed kinda like south Africa. One hundred thousand whites move out of south Africa a year. Do you know were there going, certainly not to this country. Australia!!!!!!! Digginfool and Anorignal you can't go they don't give the rich a tax break.  South America will suite your needs better.

[digginfool]

Give the rich a tax break they need it. OK then but were going to get rid of right offs then. Most large companies pay hardly no taxes right now, they fudge there books.
We need a flat tax across the board. 10% to everyone and no right offs.
Some billionaire guy that just came forward and said he pays less taxes than his workers due, that are making 50 to 60 thousand a year. I'm sure someone will remember his name.
Giving large tax breaks to the rich will result in no middle class. If you want to be like south America or Mexico OK then don't beatch when it happens. I going to car jack your a$$ first.
I think were heading there anyways with all the minority's taking over. We will probably have to go back home to our mother land of Europe in a few years. Soon as they can out vote us were screwed kinda like south Africa. One hundred thousand whites move out of south Africa a year. Do you know were there going, certainly not to this country. Australia!!!!!!! Digginfool and Anorignal you can't go they don't give the rich a tax break.  South America will suite your needs better.

Here's a 'right off' for you; why don't you get 'right off' your soap box until you learn to spell/type/probably speak intelligently.  Even if you had something worthwhile to say, you still look like an idiot typing like that.  If all else fails, try a dictionary.  I know, it will take a long time since you can't even seem to get the little words right (or is that 'write').  Come back when you get there (or is that 'their').  I'm sorry, I shouldn't poke fun at immigrants who haven't yet mastered the English language (you are an immigrant, aren't you?  If not, somebody needs to take your GED away from you).

[trx#9]

Sorry I thought this was a forum, not a grammer test. Next time all get off the phone.  I'll prove read next time too! I didn't realize there's such tight a$$es on here. Keep the insults coming buddy, make yourself look like a real jerk. Just like a right wing sicko you are.

[JackL]

There is no winner in a modern nuclear war.  Imagine the response of the world had we set off a nuclear device in Afghanistan. 

Shock and awe I imagine.

What about the nuclear powers to the immediate north and east?  What would their response be to the fallout? 

I figure Israel would throw a party, and all the money we have invested there would go a long way
towards keeping the Arabs at bay, since they would be more than ready to finish off what ever we missed. As for the fallout, I don't know what my opinion is anymore. The Bikini Atoll has the worlds most beautiful coral reef these days and I have been reading of the adventures of what very well may be the coolest girl in the world, Elena in Chernobyl  http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chapter1.html which both point to it being not so bad...

Finally, would it truly make any sense to drop a nuclear bomb on an enemy that you really didn't know the location of?  Mountains make pretty good blast shields.  About the only thing that would have been accomplished is the collapse of any tunnels or caves within a few miles of the epicenter.  After that, little energy would have been left, having been directed upwards by the landscape.

I'm pretty sure we have the technology and intelligence to have picked the right places to blast, while making a very strong point in the process.

As far as Iran goes, they have been probably our most dangerous foe for a long time.  They literally control the flow of oil out of the Persian Gulf and out to the world.  Don't believe me?  Get a globe, find Iran and find a little strip of water called the Straits of Hormuz.  All the oil leaving that area by tanker flows through that little strip of water and the Iranian shoreline bristles with Chinese Silkworm anti-ship missle batteries.  If Iran is allowed to develop nuclear weapons, they will single handedly control over half of the world's oil supplies and they will rule the Middle East.  The only thing stopping Ahmadinejad from implementing this is knowledge of world response.  However, with nuclear tipped missles (Iran is very technologically advanced and have missles they have developed that have the range, accuracy and capacity to deliver nuclear warheads hundreds of miles away), he can control the entire Middle East and would force any response to require the use of nuclear weapons, making the oil fields nuclear wastelands.  He effectively wins because everybody loses if he doesn't get his way.  In one foul swoop, Iran becomes the most powerful country in the world and $3.00 per gallon gasoline will seem ridiculously cheap.  This is the reality few Americans contemplate when thinking about the Middle East.  All they can seem to think about is the death of the kid that grew up down the street.  Yes, it's sad to see someone go before their time (does any of us really know what 'our time' is, anyways?) but there are real issues out there that require the use of America's military and until the day we are oil independent, those issues reside in the Middle East.  All wars have their roots in economics and the mother of all wars is looming if we don't exert our influence.  There is no way the rest of the world, let alone the United States, will stand by and let a single country dictate the cost of energy.  An oil free future is decades, possibly lifetimes, away and until that time, there will be oil conflicts.  The cost of war pales in comparison to the cost of energy should someone like Ahmadinejad ever control the world's oil spigot.  Why do you think the U.S. is getting support from the world in the Iranian crises?  Because of the truth that is truly inconvenient: You will either pay now or pay dearly later.

I agree with you here, this is and always was my objection to waging a ground war in Iraq of all places. This war on 'terror' was a colossal waste of time and resources no matter how you look at it. It has accomplished nothing. They were no threat to us at any point. It was simply a vendetta for ''After all, this is the guy who tired to kill my dad.'' and the entire country is bleeding for it.

I also agree the mother of all wars is looming if we don't exert our influence. I am just wondering when we are going to do that, and if we even could at this point.

IMO our President failed us miserably on so many counts he will be remembered as the worst in history, should be charged with treason, and my children's children will be footing the bill for his revenge trip which has placed our country in a seriously perilous state with nothing to show for it but a collapsing economy and a million plus people who really do want to put a hurting on us now.

At this point, I feel our best option is to invest heavily in nuclear powerplants and get all our internal combustion stuff on ethanol and vegetable oil. That will give us a good supply of DU to shoot at anyone who challenges us in the near future, namely China.

All of this would be mute if we would have put a big fat smackdown on Afghanistan in the beginning, at the cost of only a few million dollars and no American lives.

Oh well, time and history will tell all....

[Anoriginal]

trx,

I've already dominated you on every level. You should leave me out of your discussions. Believe it or not, you actually posted something I'm not opposed to trying.... the flat tax on a personal level only. Why personal only? Because most people are not business owners and the business tax breaks have historically worked quite well.

Oh, and I like it right here....in control.

[JackL]

Sorry I thought this was a forum, not a grammer test. Next time all get off the phone.  I'll prove read next time too! I didn't realize there's such tight a$$es on here. Keep the insults coming buddy, make yourself look like a real jerk. Just like a right wing sicko you are.

Come on now, you didn't realise their were such tight a$$es here?/?

Wow, you and diggin just gave me the best laugh I have had in a while!! Great stuff!!! Hahahaahah

[Anoriginal]

This thread really got off topic. Although, I am enjoying the diatribe being sold as original thought and/or debate. 

Thanks for the laughs.

[JackL]

This thread really got off topic. Although, I am enjoying the diatribe being sold as original thought and/or debate. 

Thanks for the laughs.

I just want to nuke something.

[trx#9]

trx,

I've already dominated you on every level. You should leave me out of your discussions.

One should only lawyer not judge!!! I bet you and d-fool damage your views more than helped it.

[FishaHallic]

Digginfool, if this statement is true     "I walk the middle ground on matters of personal freedom but when it comes to business, economics and finance, I'm pure Republican, baby.  There's more to life than money but there's more fun in life with money.  I subscribe to the ideals of let the people choose how to spend their money and not have government spoon feed it to a bunch of professional baby-puking couch potatoes.  But, then again, that's another topic for another day.  All you whiners out there crying about the inequalities of tax breaks need to get a reality check.  Give the little man a couple hundred bucks in tax breaks, he runs out and buys a big screen tv.  Give Daddy Big Bucks a few thousand dollars in tax breaks and he invests it into the stock market, giving business a boost and building the economy.  Sounds hard core but that's the way it works.  And by the way, Daddy Big Bucks is still paying huge amounts of taxes even though his tax break is more than all the taxes you pay (or possibly more than you make).  Unless you are a latent fan of Karl Marx, I would much rather have Republicans running this country".


If the tax breaks for the rich really help society as a whole then why is the gap between the very rich and the middle class growing?  We have had almost 7yrs of these fantastic tax cuts for the rich,  that should be enough time for these tax cuts to work there way down thru society but they are not.  If these tax cuts are so good for the rich and society as a whole then why is the stock market flat and has been for years?  Would not all this extra money floating around into the little guys hands help the housing market also? 

The economy sucks, and it is a reflection of your beloved president, not the democrats.

Don't even try to tell me about the morals of republicans and GW in particular because I know better.  Most politicians I believe are morally corrupt but the republicans are the ones with the holier than though attitude not the Dem's.

[trx#9]

Digginfool, if this statement is true     "I walk the middle ground on matters of personal freedom but when it comes to business, economics and finance, I'm pure Republican, baby.  There's more to life than money but there's more fun in life with money.  I subscribe to the ideals of let the people choose how to spend their money and not have government spoon feed it to a bunch of professional baby-puking couch potatoes.  But, then again, that's another topic for another day.  All you whiners out there crying about the inequalities of tax breaks need to get a reality check.  Give the little man a couple hundred bucks in tax breaks, he runs out and buys a big screen tv.  Give Daddy Big Bucks a few thousand dollars in tax breaks and he invests it into the stock market, giving business a boost and building the economy.  Sounds hard core but that's the way it works.  And by the way, Daddy Big Bucks is still paying huge amounts of taxes even though his tax break is more than all the taxes you pay (or possibly more than you make).  Unless you are a latent fan of Karl Marx, I would much rather have Republicans running this country".


If the tax breaks for the rich really help society as a whole then why is the gap between the very rich and the middle class growing?  We have had almost 7yrs of these fantastic tax cuts for the rich,  that should be enough time for these tax cuts to work there way down thru society but they are not.  If these tax cuts are so good for the rich and society as a whole then why is the stock market flat and has been for years?  Would not all this extra money floating around into the little guys hands help the housing market also? 

The economy sucks, and it is a reflection of your beloved president, not the democrats.

Don't even try to tell me about the morals of republicans and GW in particular because I know better.  Most politicians I believe are morally corrupt but the republicans are the ones with the holier than though attitude not the Dem's.

Good post!!!

[digginfool]

We have had almost 7yrs of these fantastic tax cuts for the rich,  that should be enough time for these tax cuts to work there way down thru society but they are not.  If these tax cuts are so good for the rich and society as a whole then why is the stock market flat and has been for years?  Would not all this extra money floating around into the little guys hands help the housing market also? 

The economy sucks, and it is a reflection of your beloved president, not the democrats.

Don't even try to tell me about the morals of republicans and GW in particular because I know better.  Most politicians I believe are morally corrupt but the republicans are the ones with the holier than though attitude not the Dem's.

OMG!!  You really don't have a clue, do you?  Have you ever looked at the growth of the stock market over the last 5 years?  Do you realize historical records have been smashed and by many analyst opinions, we are in a period of consolidation, poised to make another run towards new historical highs?  And as far as the housing market goes, I have no pity on anybody who is suffering through the so-called housing crises.  Nobody but the mortgagee signed those papers.  People making $60,000.00 per year have no business trying to purchase half-million dollar homes.  They gambled and lost.  Yeah, it was tempting to get into the thrill of the deal, but unless you were in and out early, and made intelligent decisions, you most likely got burned.  That's the way of the world in an open economy.  It's become so typical in America these days.  People make bone-headed decisions, usually based on greed, and then refuse to accept blame for their predicament.  Can you really look in the mirror and take yourself seriously when you say it's GW's fault that these dickwads bit off more than they can chew and now want to blame everybody else?  Do you really believe that all the people who used their brains should now bail out the greedy bassturds that got caught with their pants down?  Is that what you truly believe?  If so, you're a bigger fool than I ever thought you were and you represent everything that is wrong in this country today.  Nobody accepts responsibility for their actions anymore.  "It's not my fault!  I was taken advantage of!  Somebody's got to do something!  Lower my taxes, lower my interest rate, pay my mortgage!"  Hey, moron, that money has to come from somewhere!  It just doesn't disappear because somebody imposes a moratorium.  And here's something else for you to ponder, dimwit.  IF the economy sucks as bad as you say it does, why the hell is unemployment so low?  Do you know anybody who's trying to hire workers these days?  The only people that don't have jobs are the ones who don't want one in the first place.  I'm offering all time highs in hourly rates just to get people in the door to fill out an application.  Half the time, they don't even show up!  You listen to the Democratic rhetoric and you just automatically assume it's true without doing any research on your own.  The Dow was in the range of 8,300 in December 2002.  It closed today at 13,445.  I would hardly call that flat.  And if you need perspective, the Dow didn't break 2,000 until 1987 and today's closing is 3,000 points higher than the peak of the Internet bubble and the vaunted economy (in your eyes) of Bill Clinton (the Dow went up by 7,000 points during Clinton's term in office but much of that gain was due to the tech bubble and that corrected itself in 1999/2000.  It also had much to do with a Republican dominated legislature that helped foster strong economic growth that continued once George Bush took office and the shock of 9/11 wore off).  The housing market was another bubble just like the tech bubble; it was driven to highs that had no basis and when the truth came out, there was a correction.  It's not politics; it's economics.  The whole thing was driven by greed.  You want to blame somebody, blame the guy down the street that owns a $500,000.00 mortgage on a house that is now worth $275,000.00 and was only worth $190,000.00 four years ago.  Speculators are to blame, not George Bush.  So, if the 'mortgage crises' does cause a major market correction (which I don't believe will happen until after the election, if at all, and is a phenomenon with historical basis), you can blame the greed of your neighbors, not this administration.  As far as the trickle down effect of tax breaks for business goes, it does go into the hands of the little guy.  All that money floating around went into the hands of the little guys in the form of loans they now don't want to repay.  It went into the little guys hands in other ways, as well.  I gave a 10% (yes, 10%!!!) across the board raise to every employee in my company this past year and some of them have received more in the form of performance bonuses and additional raises.  So yes, the money I saved in tax breaks did trickle down to my employees.  Furthermore, through networking with my colleagues, I know we are not alone.  Nearly every company I know gave across the board raises.  Again, your whining about being held down by the establishment is typical.  Nothing is ever enough.  You want to be Daddy Big Bucks?  What the hell were you doing when you were supposed to be applying yourself in school?  When did you ever lay your nuts out on the line by signing the dotted line for millions in loans, putting your entire future in jeopardy, because you had faith in your business plan?  When did you ever even sit down and develop a business plan of any sort?  That, careful planning, execution, sacrifice and some God-given luck is what makes a succesful business and the right to receive breaks from the government so you can pass it down to your employees and/or reinvest in your company so that you can try to make their lives even better.  I've been in business for myself my entire life; I've never worked for somebody else, other than my customers, since I was 20 years old.  I've seen every economy and I've suffered and I've prospered but I never blamed anybody.  I took it like a man when it was bad and I spread it around when it was good and I've lived a prosperous life.  That's the difference between victims and victors, mice and men.  It's pretty clear what column you fall into.

[FishaHallic]

You are the typical right winger, and you proved it in your answer.  Which btw was the longest paragraph I have seen in a long time.

Did you call me a dickwad in that rant of yours, if you did I am truly hurt, I have not been called that since 8th grade or was it the 9th grade I don't remember because that was the mid 70's and you know about the free love and free drug days.

Dow was around 10,000 in August 2001 and now we are around 13,500  I don't think your comparison of the market just a month or so after 9/11 is a fair one, anyway that is not real bad but it is not great.  Now I reckon if you have money in big oil you would be doing good or maybe KBR but all in all the stock market is not on fire. 

Yes, the unemployment is low but so are the wages.  You need to come out of your gold filled office and look at the common man, the average Joe is worse off now than he was before your lover GW took office.  For one who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth you seem to know a lot about the average hard working American.  Maybe your nanny showed you how the poor people lived, but that is not the same as going out and looking around the country and seeing what it happening.

I never said that GW is 100 % responsible for the woes of this country but he has a lot to do with it, but it is a lot easier on your conscience to bury your head in  the sand as long as the little guy is footin the bill and you have more money in your pocket all is good.  That is the problem with your type, it's all about you, me on the other hand care about the good of this country.  I would not support higher taxes because I want to pay more but I would because it would be best for this country. 

And one more thing mister I don't care about nobody but myself, I never complained about the man holding me down, or my mortgage payment being too high or wanting the government to bail me out, you are just throwing those into the mix to cloud this issue.  The issue here is why I don't like your lover, GW.  I think it is becoming very clear that he is a liar, amoral, hypocrite, not all that bright and worst of all he is easily swayed by those around him.  Face it he sucks, and he will go down as one of the worst ever and you can't stand it, it eats at you that your lover sucks. 

Ok, make it two more things.  I don't need to go on the internet and hurry up and look up facts. I have lived it just like you but unlike you I don't get the republican talking points daily but I do read the papers, magazines, books and other periodicals and I also watch the news and from all this I form an opinion.  I know, it's a big liberal leaning media, all controlled by the liberals, my god it's a liberal conspiracy to bring your man down.  Give me a break anyone with half a mind can look at this country and say that we are NOT better off after 6 yrs of GW, that is unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

[FishaHallic]

Digginfool said  "That's the difference between victims and victors, mice and men.  It's pretty clear what column you fall into."

That is the other thing about you right wingers, you think your the school yard bully, try to talk tough, kick a little dirt and try to scare people with your wrath.  And believe it or not that works it does scare the weak minded and that's where you get most of your members, the weak minded followers of the school yard bully because if I am his friend he won't pick on me.  Too bad I am not a follower, I am a leader, I form my own opinion and I will meet the school yard bully on his turf if that is what he wants.  I have been living my life like that for many a year and it has served me well. 

I'm living in a nice house, drive a nice truck, have a nice quad, plasma, surround..........and on and on and on.  But what I don't do is expect other people to have to pay my way.  I don't expect gov't handouts (or in your case tax cuts) and I want to pay for my stuff myself.  You on the other hand do want gov't handouts in the form of tax cuts, so who do you think will pay for that? Your kids thats who, and their kids also, wait a minute you have such high morals and you care so much for all man kind because you are a right wing fanatic, you would not pass the buck to the next generation or would you?  The answer is yes you would and you are passing the buck, as long as your good and your getting your handouts why should things change. 

Wow you gave across the board 10% raise.  Now your workers are earning $7.70, are you paying for their insurance or how about 401k are you matching their contributions, retirement what about that or are most of your workers part time so you don't have to pay for these things.  Your type make me sick but by golly your weak minded followers look up to you.  Good for you, milk the system for all it's worth but I would rather not

[Anoriginal]

Yawn....

[digginfool]

This has become rather boring and I'm not so sure I will 'tackle' all the points.  Did I grow up with a silver spoon?  Not really but my family wasn't hurting, either (sorry, didn't have a nanny but I did enjoy our membership at the yacht club).  My father grew up on a farm during The Depression and made it on his own and he had no intentions of supporting us beyond the school years.  Once we were done with school, we were hustled out into the real world.  Yes, it was an eye opening experience for a long haired, pansy-assed, dope smoking white boy who was used to living on the Intracoastal, hanging at the yacht club and living an easy life.  Since leaving my sheltered life behind, I have been so low as to have to drag bed sheets through the grass flats off Grant to try to get enough bait to try to catch dinner.  On more than one occassion I ended up enjoying a nice pot of bait stew.  I've scraped barnacles off boats, worked longline and kingfish boats and crawled through attics in the middle of summer but I never cried about it and never stopped thinking about what the future had to bring me.  Since starting my business with absolutely nothing but an old work van, I've had weeks on end go by when everybody in the company was getting paid but me, the owner.  You try to downplay my 10% across the board raise; that cost me over $100,000.00 this year.  I would much rather put my half of that money in my pocket but as I have always done, I spread it around.  I will also hand out another $50-60K in Christmas bonuses this year as well.  Why do I tell you this?  Certainly not to make anybody feel sorry for me but to show that I do know what it's like to live at the bottom of the food chain (and I'm certainly not at the top but the view is pretty clear where I'm at).  I'm a Republican for a real good reason; for all but 8 years of the 25+ years I've owned my company, there has been a Republican president and, for the most part, a Republican dominated legislature.  For those with a dream and the drive to accomplish it, the administrations I have experienced created the economic atmosphere for me to realize my dream of one day creating my own little dynasty.  I did it on my own, except for the help my brother brought to the table (and by no means was it financial help - he was poorer than I was and also had a wife and two babies at home) when I made him partner in 1988.  Nobody but us ever put a dime into it, other than when we took loans from the bank to purchase equipment, and we did it all by the seat of our pants, learning as we went.  There was no guiding hand showing us the way or silver spoon feeding us; we did it alone and started from scratch.

Now, as far as calling you a "dickwad," go back and read that section.  That was the moniker I attached to the fools that caused this so-called housing crises.  So unless you are one of them (which you claim you're not but you do seem to only be able to focus on that one particular issue - that and you can't stand to be wrong), I never called you, specifically, a dickwad.  However, what part of my generosity makes you sick, dickwad?  When's the last time you got a 10% raise, in one year and still have your annual review and cost of living adjustment handed to you as well?  That's what I thought. 

Yes the Dow was at 10,000 in August of 2001 but had been stagnant and trending downward since the peak of 11,500 in December 1999.  December 2002 Dow was more than a few months after 9/11 (try 15) and is a perfectly legitimate starting place for his administration since he inherited the tech collapse and 9/11 in the first 9 months of his office.  This Republican administration rebuilt a severely damaged economy and gets full credit for doing so.  And before you start bitchin' about the housing crises again, you can't blame GW for all the speculators out there.  If you absolutely must put a name to the blame, try Carlton Sheets or one of the others that harked real estate get-rich-quick schemes on tv at 2 AM. 

Let me ask you one question; if GW is to blame for the Iraq issues, how come none of the Democratic candidates are harping about bringing the troops home anymore?  It's not because GW left them with such a mess that they can't leave now.  It's the oil and if you check history, you will see that everyone of them wanted to go into Iraq and do something about Saddam before GW ever ran for office, let alone got elected.  Explain that one if you can.  All right, I'm bored plus I have things to do.  Gotta go for now.

[FishaHallic]

NOW, I know you called me a dickwad and I did not misread that.  I see your tone has settled down some and now that you are more civil we can agree to disagree.  I want you to understand that I don't blame everything on GW but I know enough about economics and politics that he can certainly take the blame for alot of our countries problems.  True there are other factors but he is the is the main culprit.  His so-called war on terror (Iraq) has been a clusterf#@*, and is draining the financial resources of this country and in turn bringing down the economy.  Can you at least admit he screwed up this Iraq war, and don't blame the military, remember GW is the commander and chief.