Big Cypress Concerns

[Anoriginal]

Hello folks. Often I am criticized when posting as being negative or coming across in an incorrect manner. Understand that what I am about to post is meant in the best of ways and simply intended to communicate a personal experience of mine over the last week.

On Sunday, December 26, 2004 I traveled to the Big Cypress Oasis Ranger station to get a new swamp buggy I'd recently built inspected and registered. As I pulled up, I noticed numerous ATV's (probably 8-10) in the parking lot being inspected and registered. I parked my truck, unloaded my buggy and drove it to the rear of the Oasis for weighing and inspection. I then walked in the side door of the building and to the front desk to get in line for inspection and allow the person who was with me to get his ORV operators license.

As I walked up front, I was greeted by two rangers I've come to know over the years who told me I'd have to wait a while for the inspection as there were numerous folks ahead of me. I told them fine, no big deal, I would just hang out and talk to my ranger friends.

While standing there, a group of folks came in obviously mad. They consisted of three grown men and four children that were all obviously under 15 years old. The men started complaining (after paying no mind to those in line in front of them) that they'd waited all morning for inspection only to be told that their underage children couldn't ride their new ATV's santa brought them in the park. The ranger politely told them that they should have recalled from their ORV licensing orientation and the clearly posted rules that no child under 15 without a learner's permit may operate an ATV or ORV of any kind in the park. Moreover, you can't ride double unless the ATV is specifically designed for double riders.

Well, after much huffing and puffing, the men and children went outside. As they did, the ranger and I talked about the exchange. In short, it became clear that the biggest problem the ranger's have down in the Big Cypress is the ATV crowd. They do not follow the rules, do not tread lightly, do not stick to the designated trails where indicated and required and seem to have the attitude that they have a "right" to ride in the Park. Although the rangers tried to remind this particular group that riding was a priviledge, they didn't get it.  Again, this is not something that has been confined to only that particular group.

Almost amazingly, soon after the first group walked out, another man and his 13 year old son came in and started arguing with the ranger about the exact same thing. They were not with the first group. He too huffed and puffed and then went outside.  The rangers just shook their head. I asked if they have a lot of those types of problems with the ATV'ers and they said "all the time". I asked if they had the same trouble with the swamp buggy owners and they replied "no".

Now, here's where it gets stupid. After inspecting and registering my new buggy, my friend and I decided to take a ride up the Oasis trail as it had been a while since I'd traveled it. We went up about 3 miles or so then headed back to the Oasis. On the way back, we came across the gentleman and his 13 year old son along the trail. With them were two rangers on a buggy giving them tickets because the san was riding an ATV on his own and niether one of them were wearing helmets. I couldn't believe it.

I love riding ATV's and will buy a new one this year for use in the Everglades. However, if the ATV'ers don't do something soon to change their reputation with the park service, its going to kill any opportunity we have to continue riding. Remember, we do not have any "right" to ride in the Big Cypress. Right now, ORV use is a priviledge that can be taken at any time. Any doubts? Look at all the closed areas north of the alley known as the "addition lands". All of this used to be open for ORV access.

Again, I am in no way pointing fingers or stereotyping anyone. I just thought everyone who is concerned about places to ride would be interested. As ATV riders, we are not looked upon favorably in the Big Cypress. It is up to us to change that opinion.

[Thrasher]

it's idiots like them as to why we have a hard time getting/keeping any sort of decent riding places...

on the other hand, I can easily understand why it would be the problem ATV'ers who would 'stand out' more in this case...I don't see too many younger folks who own/drive swamp buggies...it maybe just me..but i'm shooting for the obvious there...plus with a swamp buggy, u can fit a small family of 50 on some of them, so then the age thing wouldnt matter except for the driver...but the parent's seem to be the ones acting like idiots in a lot of cases.

As for the guy and his kid hopefully he took in a nice fine, he was told no, but went anyway, without helmets....What an idiot.

[450R_Matt]

There is alway a bad apple in a bunch that wreacks it for others no matter what there doing weather its ATV's, Buggies, Boats, Watercraft, so on and so forth. Thats why there is people to enforce the rules.  I saw people with buggies riding down the road this weekend in the Picaynue State Forest...  :-/   Not pointing fingers at anyone

[Anoriginal]

Absolutely. All ORV'ers have the bad apples. I can't tell the you number of times I've been in different location and seen all types of ORV's being used improperly. Unfortunately, Big Cypress seems to have a big problem with the ATV folks that use it.

[450R_Matt]

What do you think the ratio is from ATV's to Buggies. 20, 30, 40, to 1. Thats why they stand out espeacialey (sp) in South Florida. If we had a place to ride and the state or goverment had enough man power to enforce the laws than we would not stand out so much.

Maybe they should take that money for the Everglades restoration and turn Picayune State Forest into a ATV park and not waste our tax money on trying to flood it back.

My .02

[big-daddy]

the problem is that no one wants to read before shooting off their mouth. black and white http://data2.itc.nps.gov/parks/bicy/ppdocuments/ORV%20Map2%20low%20res%20distilled.pdf

[450R_Matt]

the problem is that no one wants to read before shooting off their mouth. black and white http://data2.itc.nps.gov/parks/bicy/ppdocuments/ORV%20Map2%20low%20res%20distilled.pdf

Not sure what you have there my pc wont open it... :-/

[JohnCue]

Hello... I'm new to the quad scene. Don't worry...I'll follow all of the rules : ) I'll be getting a 05 Raptor 660r in two weeks and I wanted to know other places to ride in south florida. I live in Coral Springs. By the way...thanks for posting the pdf site about Big Cypress. I'm reading the rules right now. That's very helpful for newbies like me.

Oh and...you need Acrobat Reader to view the link.
It's free. Click below to download it.
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readermain.html

[sk8r_dude]

I spend a lot of time at Big Cypress (been their 3 times in the last 2 weeks) and I can tell you that anoriginal is unfortunitely right. I believe the difference is that the quad crowd is a complety different group than the swamp buggy crowd. Quads are sold at any dealer you care to visit, swamp buggies are custom made for the most part and are a small fraction of the ORV sport in general. Riding at Big Cypress is a huge privilage. I just got back from an all day ride (almost 60 hard trail miles) and saw exactly 0 humans. I consider BC one of the most beautiful places I have seen.

The irony here is that if you look at the impact caused in the park by the two types of vehicles, you would think the rangers would like the quad group more. The swamp buggy ruts are big enough to swallow a quad in one bite. These machines carve huge tracks in the park. Don't get me wrong, a quad can cause rutting as well, but I dont think thier is any question that when comparing the two, the swamp buggies are the more damaging. I say this with no negative feeling to the swamp buggy crowd. They just happen to be the bigger and heaver machine. We all have a right to be their.

We are lucky to have a place like BC here in South Florida. With all of the riding places closed, BC will be under a lot of pressure with all of us going to the only place to ride in the area. Be kind to the Rangers, their job is to protect you while you enjoy the park and all it has to offer. Who knows, in your time of need, they may be your only hope. They have helped me.

[o4250]

I think its stupid how you have to be 15 and have A learners permit


Now I got no where to ride


Now I no im gonna get bashed from this but its just unfair

[Thrumud]

What gets to me is that the state / Gov, keeps taking PUBLIC LAND as if we have no part.  Public land is the peoples land, not the ******g Gov's land - and Sk8 _ dude, I agree with you.

[sk8r_dude]

To clarify, Big Cypress is not a riding area for sport quads. I am not sure, but I don't think a sport quad would even pass inspection for a permit due to tire width and other requirements. Even if one could pass inspection, with a 15MPH speed limit in the preserve and trails that even challenge a stock 4 wheel drive quad, I don't know what a sport quad rider would do their.

I don't want to get into the debate about age requirements in the park. I will only say that after spending a lot of time in the preserve, it is a very challenging place to ride and I am sure the rules are in place to protect us and our kids. BC is no play ground and shouldn't be looked at as one. It is not a place to learn how to ride an ATV.  

[Anoriginal]

I think the problem was hit right on the head by Big-Daddy. The rules are simple, easy to obtain and (for the most part) remain constant. The problems I see are caused by a combination of several things: 1. Ignorance (i.e. - not reading and remembering the rules); 2. Arrogance (i.e. - thinking you somehow have a "right" to ride); 3. Stupidity (i.e. - knowing the rules and affirmatively deciding to disobey them); and 4. Carelessness (i.e. - overestimating your abilities and underestimating the Big Cypress).

As far as the number of buggies to ATV's the ratio is much larger these days on the ATV side. ATV's are cheap, take little investment (can't finance a swamp buggy with Yamaha credit) and easy to transport. If you've taken the time to build and transport the buggy, your attitude is a bit different. (Just an observation)

Last weekend, I was approximately nine miles south of the alley (I came in from the south - that means I was 13.5 -14.5 miles from where I parked the truck) and approximately 6 miles east of Turner Grade when I came across a guy on his Bruin and his son on a 1986 Big Red. They had no idea where they were. I know because I asked them. They told me they were camped off of Turner Grade and were heading back to camp. Well, after pointing out to them that they were headed in the wrong direction and leading them to a trail that would deliver them straight out, I sent them on their way. I tell you folks this not to make fun of them, but to let you know how dangerous things can get.

The Big Cypress repeats itself. What I mean is that the terrain is very repetitive and similar. Cypress strands into sawgrass, into pines and palmettos and back to saw grass, cypress and on and on.... Add to that an overcast day with no sun for reference and being low to the ground hindering your perspective and it is simple to get turned around.

If you go, please be sure to know where you are going and plan your trip. Get a Quadrangle map and study it. Also, carry a GOOD GPS and extra batteries along with a regular old compas. If you stay to the hard trails only, you'll probably never have any trouble. Wander off and into the unbroken territory without being prepared and you're begging for disaster.

Cheers

[JohnCue]

Did anyone see my question ?

"Hello... I'm new to the quad scene. Don't worry...I'll follow all of the rules : ) I'll be getting a 05 Raptor 660r in two weeks and I wanted to know other places to ride in south florida".
(Sport Quads).  Thanks.

[o4250]

To clarify, Big Cypress is not a riding area for sport quads. I am not sure, but I don't think a sport quad would even pass inspection for a permit due to tire width and other requirements. Even if one could pass inspection, with a 15MPH speed limit in the preserve and trails that even challenge a stock 4 wheel drive quad, I don't know what a sport quad rider would do their.

 

[customrubicon]

I do not ride a sport quad but there are very few places to ride a sport quad in south florida. I think that you will find that you will be traveling north to ride.

[JohnCue]

Thanks. I found some places besides Big Cypress.
I see that this forum is more for 4x4 quads.

[450R_Matt]

Trust me aoriginal I agree with you on your thoughts. But ATV's are not cheep these days. Well not the new ones. I have 4 in my garage that I have more than 20k invested into  and a $2500 trailer to carry them all on. I have Built 2 buggies and 1 airboat. I would have to say that my experance is I like the ATV's the best. If you have a buggie or a xtream 4x4 truck around here you just end up towing someone out of a hole or back to the trailer.

We just need a place to take them legalley here in SW Florida and where someone can enforce the rules to make it a better place.

[450R_Matt]

I do not ride a sport quad but there are very few places to ride a sport quad in south florida. I think that you will find that you will be traveling north to ride.

well now we only have 1 place legaley to ride the sports quads. Seminole Tribe Moto-x Park. :-/
Something needs to be done or we are just going to have to make them street legal.

[o4250]

Thanks. I found some places besides Big Cypress.
I see that this forum is more for 4x4 quads.

No its not look around some

[Anoriginal]

1fast250r
I understand where you are coming from on the prices. However, one top notch 4x4 quad with all the goodies with a trailer will still cost you less than $15k. My last buggy build was over $25k for the buggy alone.

My point was more directed to the fact that quads (which are expensive these days) are more readily available to the average consumer.

By the way, I'd love to hear about your buggies. Do you still have them?

[450R_Matt]

1fast250r
I understand where you are coming from on the prices. However, one top notch 4x4 quad with all the goodies with a trailer will still cost you less than $15k. My last buggy build was over $25k for the buggy alone.

My point was more directed to the fact that quads (which are expensive these days) are more readily available to the average consumer.

By the way, I'd love to hear about your buggies. Do you still have them?

Well yes and no. I totally rebuilt an old 2WD that My, father in-law has that still is in the family (Johns out of Naples) but I got tired of fixing it when someone else tear's it up so It just sits there broke.
And I sold my other buggy to get a new truck to drive to work.. :-/  knowing there wasnt going to be any where to ride anymore. Anyway sorry to get off the subject in hand.

Post a pic of that $25k buggy

[Super Dave]

I spend a lot of time at Big Cypress (been their 3 times in the last 2 weeks) and I can tell you that anoriginal is unfortunitely right. I believe the difference is that the quad crowd is a complety different group than the swamp buggy crowd. Quads are sold at any dealer you care to visit, swamp buggies are custom made for the most part and are a small fraction of the ORV sport in general. Riding at Big Cypress is a huge privilage. I just got back from an all day ride (almost 60 hard trail miles) and saw exactly 0 humans. I consider BC one of the most beautiful places I have seen.

The irony here is that if you look at the impact caused in the park by the two types of vehicles, you would think the rangers would like the quad group more. The swamp buggy ruts are big enough to swallow a quad in one bite. These machines carve huge tracks in the park. Don't get me wrong, a quad can cause rutting as well, but I dont think thier is any question that when comparing the two, the swamp buggies are the more damaging. I say this with no negative feeling to the swamp buggy crowd. They just happen to be the bigger and heaver machine. We all have a right to be their.

We are lucky to have a place like BC here in South Florida. With all of the riding places closed, BC will be under a lot of pressure with all of us going to the only place to ride in the area. Be kind to the Rangers, their job is to protect you while you enjoy the park and all it has to offer. Who knows, in your time of need, they may be your only hope. They have helped me.

you need to go to webs off tuckers grade 4 month of the year the place in run to death by buggys no 4wheelers. by next year you would never know buggy where ever out there.now if 4wheelers could go it would be a mess.the yuka pan is a good exp. of what 4wheelers can do for damage this is why the pan is a sillhunt area so it can recoop.that will take years.just some facts & my 2c. o and i would like to see that $25k buggy to

[Anoriginal]

Here's a pic of it as we were building it. This pic is from November 2004. I'll post some finished pics once I find a good one.

Okay, having issues with posting a pic. I'll figure it out and post soon. [smiley=Angry.gif]

[o4250]

you need to go to webs off tuckers grade 4 month of the year the place in run to death by buggys no 4wheelers. by next year you would never know buggy where ever out there.now if 4wheelers could go it would be a mess.the yuka pan is a good exp. of what 4wheelers can do for damage this is why the pan is a sillhunt area so it can recoop.that will take years.just some facts & my 2c. o and i would like to see that $25k buggy to

I know right becuase 4 foot buggy ruts arent as much damage as 1 foot 4wheeler ruts