Tore up the Holey lands today

[Anoriginal]

From your pics, it looks like you are mudding right in his yard. If I came home and a stranger was stuck in the mud in my yard or washing himself in my hose I wouldn't be too happy about it. Might be different if that stranger was a female and better looking than you .

In my defense, that's not me...I'm behind the camera.   Anyway, I don't know if you have been there, but the pictures are deceptive. It is not in the yard at all. Many trails and ruts completely surround the place. Also, the pics are from two different camps. This is also literally in the middle of sawgrass air boat / fulltrak country.

What is wrong with you? It is someone's private property and yes, they do own it. Regardless of where its located (middle of the sawgrass or otherwise) it is not yours and was clearly marked with a no trespassing sign. You and your buddy decided it was okay to mud right in front of his place then wash off in his hose after entering his property. I also gather that you used someone else's picnic table too. You reasoning in your convolluted mind that you only used it two minutes and therefore it's not really trespassing is like saying someone is "sort-of" pregnant.

I own a camp that is right smack in the middle of the big cypress and surrounded by sawgrass, swamp and buggy trails. I pay the taxes on it, maintain it and spend a ton of money on it otherwise. I am sure the camp owners you violated experience the same. You my friend are what's wrong with this sport. You have no comprehension of decency nor any sense of responsibility. You actually posted pictures of mudding in front of someone's camp, tresspassing while standing in front of a no tresspassing sign and riding with no helmet. If I were one of the people trying to close Holylands to ATV riders, I'd sure as hell use your pictures as ammunition. 

What's wrong with you? 

[digginfool]

You make a good point, Anoriginal, regarding JackL's choice of mudding locations.  70,000 acres of mud and sawgrass and you chose the nicest camp out there to mud in.  The owners of that camp are very nice and accommodating when I've visited the camp.  I've sat on the front porch, watched lightening storms and drank beer with those guys.  Really down to earth people.  But I would never dream of making myself at home if they weren't there.  Lack of respect for private, as well as public, property is exactly what is killing this sport.

[Anoriginal]

You make a good point, Anoriginal, regarding JackL's choice of mudding locations.  70,000 acres of mud and sawgrass and you chose the nicest camp out there to mud in.  The owners of that camp are very nice and accommodating when I've visited the camp.  I've sat on the front porch, watched lightening storms and drank beer with those guys.  Really down to earth people.  But I would never dream of making myself at home if they weren't there.  Lack of respect for private, as well as public, property is exactly what is killing this sport.

My point exactly. We have to be ever mindful of our image and vigilant with respect to our actions. I want JackL and everyone else to be able to enjoy the Holeylands for years to come. Only by using common sense and having respect can we ensure our continued use.

[JackL]

What is wrong with you? It is someone's private property and yes, they do own it. Regardless of where its located (middle of the sawgrass or otherwise) it is not yours and was clearly marked with a no trespassing sign. You and your buddy decided it was okay to mud right in front of his place then wash off in his hose after entering his property. I also gather that you used someone else's picnic table too. You reasoning in your convolluted mind that you only used it two minutes and therefore it's not really trespassing is like saying someone is "sort-of" pregnant.

I have no trespassing signs on my house, but I rarely shoot people who come to the door...? Do you? I certainly wouldn't run out and blast a guy who rinsed his hands or took a sip from my water hose.
Can you tell me exactly how far I must stay away from no trespassing signs? I'm confused now. Is the entire 3A north off limits because of these signs on a camp in the middle of it?

I own a camp that is right smack in the middle of the big cypress and surrounded by sawgrass, swamp and buggy trails. I pay the taxes on it, maintain it and spend a ton of money on it otherwise. I am sure the camp owners you violated experience the same. You my friend are what's wrong with this sport. You have no comprehension of decency nor any sense of responsibility. You actually posted pictures of mudding in front of someone's camp, tresspassing while standing in front of a no tresspassing sign and riding with no helmet. If I were one of the people trying to close Holylands to ATV riders, I'd sure as hell use your pictures as ammunition. 

What's wrong with you? 

I don't know what has happened to you my friend. Maybe you were always like this. Violated..lol
You talk like a New Yark transplant. If you think <b>I</b> am a problem with this "sport" as you call it. you are seriously mistaken.
I am an adult, I don't need to wear a helmet BY LAW on my street bike at 130mph, why should I at 10 in the mud.

I hope I never run across your camp in BC, please put up a fence so I don't accidently 'violate' you. LOL

I have been running these swamps my entire life, and I have more than the little wheeler to do it with.

While I don't have a camp in BC, I 'did' have one in Piccyune for ten+ years, and by god I shared it with friends and strangers alike. No one ever stole any of my stuff, we all got along and many good times were had by all.


You need to look a little deeper at the people NOT posting pictures to see where the real problem is, but hey, the guy who used somebodies water and carted away a bunch of beer cans must be at fault because his pictures LOOK like he is tearing up someones lawn/camp.

[JackL]

You make a good point, Anoriginal, regarding JackL's choice of mudding locations.  70,000 acres of mud and sawgrass and you chose the nicest camp out there to mud in.  The owners of that camp are very nice and accommodating when I've visited the camp.  I've sat on the front porch, watched lightening storms and drank beer with those guys.  Really down to earth people.  But I would never dream of making myself at home if they weren't there.  Lack of respect for private, as well as public, property is exactly what is killing this sport.

You guys are really beating me up over nothing. The only reason a lot of pictures are from there is because I wasn't riding at the time. You are seriously stretching it to say I made myself at home there! The entire visit lasted maybe ten minutes!!

[Anoriginal]

JackL:

Your problem is that you're either too caught up in yourself or incapable of understanding what you did wrong. It was not your property. You set foot on it and used the facilities. In fact, you did so in the face of a no trespassing sign. Your discussion about shooting people who come to the door makes absolutely zero sense.

Regarding riding without a helmet, if you do so, you're ignorant. That's a fact, not open for discussion, case closed.

You carried out some beer cans. Well, kudos to you. That's great. Still doesn't change the fact that your pictures make us look bad. You are a problem if you can't bend your mind around the fact that you were wrong.

As far as a New York transplant, that's funny. You have no idea about who I am but, I can tell you that my family has been here since the 1810's. In fact, my great grandfather then my grandfather once leased all of the Big Cypress from Burdines to Monroe Station east of 29 from Barron Collier himself and shared many camps with him through the years. So don't attempt to preach to me about the Glades nor attempt to put on a holy southern gentleman face to me. I'm way beyond you in all respects.

Think about what you do and how you act. The wheels are in motion to take Holeylands away from us at ATV riders. None of the camp owners like us. The majority of the buggy guys have no use for us. (and by us I mean the recreational ATV rider) The FWC and state management would love to see us banned from Holeylands. Trespassing, no matter how short in time, is wrong. Posting pictures of you doing it in front of a sign combined with shot of you mudding in front of another camp while your cooler sits in their yard only adds fodder to the anti ATV crowd.

Use your head man. 

[cheropride]

Have a question for you, how did you get the water to come on? 

Most people know that a well requires power to bring up water!

You know when I saw the pictures, I had to look real hard.  Said to myself, who is that?  They don't look familar....

I don't think that you meant any harm, but as for me, if I don't know whose camp it is, I don't stop.  I also would not be 4-wheeling on their camp or even in front of their camp, it just makes it harder for them to access their camp.  Like it was said, there is plenty of room for that.  Using the water was a little bit much, I really don't think that in the everglades you just walk up to a hose and turn it on.  The other thing, for me, if it was my camp, I sure would not want my camp posted on a web-site, for all to see, and think hey what a cool place to hang-out. 

I happen to know the people that own those camps, actually stayed at the one.  Those camps are private property, and should be treated as such.  It is like if you are out of town, and you look on a computer and see that your backyard was host to people you did not know, may offend a little.  They are some really great people, who as you can tell, busted their a$$ building those camps.  So I would advise all to treat those camps with a lot of respect.  Respect what the sign clearly stated "No Tresspassing".  Suprised no one saw you, for they all watch each others camp....

[JackL]

Your problem is that you're either too caught up in yourself or incapable of understanding what you did wrong. It was not your property. You set foot on it and used the facilities. In fact, you did so in the face of a no trespassing sign. Your discussion about shooting people who come to the door makes absolutely zero sense.

It sure seems you advocate shooting anyone within a set amount of feet from a no trespassing sign, because they are 'trespassing', and don't belong there ever. I must have misunderstood.

Regarding riding without a helmet, if you do so, you're ignorant. That's a fact, not open for discussion, case closed.

Closed for you perhaps, but until the lawmakers decide otherwise, it is legal and acceptable. You can't pick and choose the laws you follow.

You carried out some beer cans. Well, kudos to you. That's great. Still doesn't change the fact that your pictures make us look bad. You are a problem if you can't bend your mind around the fact that you were wrong.

I'm sorry that I don't agree with you. Perhaps I'll take some new photos out there on Saturday and we'll see just who makes 'us' look bad.

As far as a New York transplant, that's funny. You have no idea about who I am but, I can tell you that my family has been here since the 1810's. In fact, my great grandfather then my grandfather once leased all of the Big Cypress from Burdines to Monroe Station east of 29 from Barron Collier himself and shared many camps with him through the years. So don't attempt to preach to me about the Glades nor attempt to put on a holy southern gentleman face to me. I'm way beyond you in all respects.

Believe it or not, I knew this already. A buddy of mine had an exchange with you about loop road area years ago on this site, and I am still in awe of your lineage...if any of it is true of course.
Reading your above paragraph, I do believe any southern hospitality you once had has long been erased by the current residents of this ONCE fine state.

Think about what you do and how you act. The wheels are in motion to take Holeylands away from us at ATV riders. None of the camp owners like us. The majority of the buggy guys have no use for us. (and by us I mean the recreational ATV rider) The FWC and state management would love to see us banned from Holeylands. Trespassing, no matter how short in time, is wrong. Posting pictures of you doing it in front of a sign combined with shot of you mudding in front of another camp while your cooler sits in their yard only adds fodder to the anti ATV crowd.

I have yet to see any records in any Broward county database that lists these leases in the first place, and I actually have been researching it this AM because of this very thread.

Lets see what I have found:

On Friday March 9, Officers William Carpenter and Scott Engstler were patrolling the L-5 levee when they observed several underage subjects drinking alcohol. After the officers watched each of the five subjects consume beer, they made their approach. Each subject threw their bottle in the bushes in an attempt to hide them. Consequently, they were all cited for consuming alcohol and littering.

On Saturday, March 10, Officers William Carpenter, Scott Engstler, Lindsey Bruening, and Reserve Officer Pat McDonald were patrolling the East Coast Buffer Strip when they observed numerous ATVs illegally operating on state lands. Ten citations were issued to violators.

On Sunday, Broward County investigators were patrolling Everglades 3A North when they observed several airboats operating during shooting hours. The suspect boats were stopped and citations were issued.


Investigator Skip Trubey was off duty when he observed two subjects illegally discarding yard debris. Officers Ernest Light and Scott Engstler responded to the scene and cited the subjects for littering. Additionally, one subject was jailed for an outstanding warrant from Okaloosa County for failure to appear on a DUI charge.

On December 29, Officers Scott Engstler and William Carpenter were working on the L-5 Levee
when they encountered several underage (under 21) subjects consuming alcohol. A closer
inspection revealed one of the subjects possessed less than 20 grams of marijuana. Officer
Engstler issued a notice to appear and seized the evidence.

On Friday, December 29, Officer Erika Zimmerman was driving to the Highlands County
Courthouse when she met an oncoming all-terrain vehicle (ATV) on the paved road. She slowed,
turned on her blue lights and signaled for the operator to stop. He sped away and was soon out of
sight on the curvy road. Officer Zimmerman contacted Lieutenant Dale Knapp, who was towing a
boat from nearby Lake Josephine, to help form a perimeter. Lieutenant Knapp set up on an
intersection to the south and a short time later was approached by the speeding ATV. The officer
pulled out to block the road, causing the ATV operator to go back north through the woods.
Lieutenant Knapp tracked him on foot and found where he had run the ATV into a downed pine
tree and got stuck. Highlands County Sheriff’s Office deputies responded with a dog and started
to track the suspect. During this time, the suspect ran across the road near where Officer
Zimmerman had parked. She drove through a yard to head off the fleeing man, then jumped a
fence and apprehended the subject. The man was handcuffed and taken to the county jail, where
he was charged with felony fleeing to elude, resisting arrest without violence, and operating an
ATV on a paved road.




On Saturday, December 30, Lieutenant Joe Allen observed an airboat enter Hickory Hammock
WMA. Several complaints had been received regarding subjects entering the area at this location
and hunting illegally. Lieutenant Allen walked to the area where he heard the boat shut down and
observed two hunting dogs in the WMA near the marsh. He then launched his FWC airboat and
approximately 45 minutes later, apprehended the man as he was attempting to leave the WMA in
an airboat. The subject had a 20-gauge shotgun loaded with rifled slugs and five hunting dogs.
The subject was charged with attempting to take deer and wild hogs during a closed season on
the WMA and hunting with dogs other than bird dogs.

Use your head man. 

I do, I just can't believe with all the things that go on out there, you are attacking me over what amounts to NOTHING. Oh well, I do understand. I like to argue for the sake of argument as well.

Believe it or not, I am one of the good guys.

http://myfwc.com/law/Weekly/


Have a good day.

[cheropride]

I assure you these are not squatter camps, they were grandfather in years ago!  And let's not post that they are, that just makes it worse for the camp owners! 

I understand that you really meant no harm, but perhaps if you would just look at it from a different perspective, you might see the other side of the coin.  For example, in the earlier post, you were actually telling people how to get to the camps.  Come on, that's just not right.  Look how people treat parking area, you know if you get enough people out there, you are going to have issues.  You also stated that you own a camp elsewhere and never got hit, well than you are very lucky.  I too own a camp elsewhere, and have been hit twice.  I surely would not want my camp posted, w/directions.

My point is, the more people know about a camp, the worse it is for that camp.  I will tell you, and everyone else, don't treat these as squatter camps, cause they are not. Also again say, those camps are monitored by alot of people, and an airboat can come up on you faster than you can say go.  Come on, who would dump that kind of time and money into a squatter camp.  I can only hope that Mr. Bones removes this post, just for the fact it not only shows someone's camp, but hell even gives them directions. 

[big-daddy]

JackL,

I keep two 50lb bags of lime for fools like you at my camp.   Matt you need to Sterilize this fool!  

[JackL]

I assure you these are not squatter camps, they were grandfather in years ago!  And let's not post that they are, that just makes it worse for the camp owners! 

I understand that you really meant no harm, but perhaps if you would just look at it from a different perspective, you might see the other side of the coin.  For example, in the earlier post, you were actually telling people how to get to the camps.  Come on, that's just not right.  Look how people treat parking area, you know if you get enough people out there, you are going to have issues.  You also stated that you own a camp elsewhere and never got hit, well than you are very lucky.  I too own a camp elsewhere, and have been hit twice.  I surely would not want my camp posted, w/directions.

My point is, the more people know about a camp, the worse it is for that camp.  I will tell you, and everyone else, don't treat these as squatter camps, cause they are not. Also again say, those camps are monitored by alot of people, and an airboat can come up on you faster than you can say go.  Come on, who would dump that kind of time and money into a squatter camp.  I can only hope that Mr. Bones removes this post, just for the fact it not only shows someone's camp, but hell even gives them directions. 

At least I didn't post GPS coordinates.   I've removed any directions to the camps from the other posts, as well as any squatter references. AS if they are hard to find, LMAO, it is like a damn main road.
Also, no air boats out there right now, I can assure you.

BTW: MY squatter camp had a substantial investment in it. It is part of the game.

[JackL]

JackL,

I keep two 50lb bags of lime for fools like you at my camp.   Matt you need to Sterilize this fool!  

I'll bet you do. Did it make your stucco stickier?

Are you listed in one of the FWC reports from the link in my other post? With an attitude like that, I suspect so.

[JackL]

Have a question for you, how did you get the water to come on? 

Most people know that a well requires power to bring up water!

Turned the handle. I didn't believe in a million years it would work. I assume it is gravity powered, but I honestly don't know. I wasn't there long enough, or really near enough to the property to find out.
That is the one question I have for the builder.

You know when I saw the pictures, I had to look real hard.  Said to myself, who is that?  They don't look familar....

Thank goodness, I have a feeling my house might get 'violated' after this thread.

I don't think that you meant any harm, but as for me, if I don't know whose camp it is, I don't stop.  I also would not be 4-wheeling on their camp or even in front of their camp, it just makes it harder for them to access their camp.  Like it was said, there is plenty of room for that.  Using the water was a little bit much, I really don't think that in the everglades you just walk up to a hose and turn it on.  The other thing, for me, if it was my camp, I sure would not want my camp posted on a web-site, for all to see, and think hey what a cool place to hang-out. 

I happen to know the people that own those camps, actually stayed at the one.  Those camps are private property, and should be treated as such.  It is like if you are out of town, and you look on a computer and see that your backyard was host to people you did not know, may offend a little.  They are some really great people, who as you can tell, busted their a$$ building those camps.  So I would advise all to treat those camps with a lot of respect.  Respect what the sign clearly stated "No Tresspassing".  Suprised no one saw you, for they all watch each others camp....

I honestly understand what you are saying, but seriously, anyone would have been friendly we encountered, we were just passing by! Ok, I do feel like a d*ick for using the water now, and posting the pictures.
I'm going to remove the offensive ones, and bring an extra case of Budweiser to them this weekend.

[Anoriginal]

JackL:

When and where did I ever advocate shooting someone? Is your mind that warped? You brought up the shooting issue, I merely pointed out that it was sensless. Something's not right with you.

Regarding helmets, it's not a matter of it being legal or not. If you ride without a helmet, on the rode or otherwise, you're a compelte and total moron. That's a fact that's not open for debate.

Regarding taking pictures of others, why? Just because you get pictures of people acting even more inappropriate than you did doesn't change the truth that you were wrong. Again, how is it possible for your mind to work in this way?

Your comments about my lineage are not worth responding to. But, as far as posting the weekly FWC report I'm still waiting for your point. Those reports and activities have ZERO to do with your conduct. You were wrong, face it. Yet again, I cannot fathom how your brain works to link your trespassing to the FWC reports. 

Thank you so much for not posting GPS numbers. Never mind the fact that anyone with a computer can get the GPS numbers using readily available GIS technology. As far as a squatter camp goes, it really is as insignificant as the rest of your arguments. If it was a squatter camp, you never owned it and have no right to complain when it was taken away. Essentially, someone finally terminated a long time repeated trespass.

Investment in a squatter camp is not exactly a smart choice. Those camps are privately owned and have been for years. Just like in the Big Cypress there are several private inholdings that were exempted out when the squatter camps were eradicated. These types of inholdings exist in just about all of the WMA's and Preserves in the Everglades watershed/basin.

Face it, you did not use your brain when you acted improperly and then posted pictures of it on a public forum. Now, to counter the well deserved criticism you've received you post babble about issues that have nothing to do with it. You need to go sit in the shade someplace and gather your thoughts before opening your brain through your keyboard. Your last attempts were infantile.

[cheropride]

Appreciated...

Look I think that it is really sad that things are the way they are.  Hell, in the old days, this would not even be an issue.  Yea, you did some 4-wheeling, yea, you used the water.  You weren't like some a/h that would go there and tear everything up.  I think everyone gets twisted, because it is so hard to have nice things now-a-days.  Yea, it use to be really nice when you could do camp runs and stuff, but hell most people ain't having a good time unless they are destroying something someone else worked so hard to build.  Trust me, it really stinks, when you get to your camp and someone has done a number on it.  If someone comes to my camp, I really don't have an issue, but then again, who can you trust anymore.  That's why a lot of people don't even post where they ride anymore, because you will get a bunch of idiots out there, and you're done.  May not be members of this site, but I am sure people get their information from this site.

And, yea it may be a main road to you, but you know what, evidently, many don't know where it is.  I would like to see them make that run in rainy season, trust me, it ain't fun.  Been there done that.

No hard feelings, I too had to learn the hard way, what to post and not post.  Sometimes we forget, the nit-wits are watching.  Looking for something else to screw up.  It's like you stated, you took pictures, so it ain't like you were hiding the fact.  And at the same time, you need to understand where people are coming from.  Because we have seen it time and time again.  Something gets out on web, and it's done.  

[cheropride]

Ah PS - Can you make that Mich Ultra Light - 

[Anoriginal]

Cheropride:

Great post. I agree with you. JackL, I don't think you're a bad guy, you just didn't think before you acted.

I too have had people come into my camp and use things around it (outside shower, fire pit, etc.) and even camp in my yard. They left it nice and clean and did no harm. I am glad they were able to use my place and have no probelm with it because they respected it. We're losing more and more ground because of poor choices we make for ourselves. I get really angry really fast when I see it happening. I'll never stop my activism no matter how some folks feel about it.

[JackL]

JackL:
Face it, you did not use your brain when you acted improperly and then posted pictures of it on a public forum. Now, to counter the well deserved criticism you've received you post babble about issues that have nothing to do with it. You need to go sit in the shade someplace and gather your thoughts before opening your brain through your keyboard. Your last attempts were infantile.

Ok, you are right. I'm calling the BSO right now to turn myself in for my crime.
Once released, I'm also going to tote 3 pallets of sod out there with the beer to fix any ruts I might  have made in the sawgrass.
Thank you for making me realise I'm just an idiot lawbreaker who should wear a helmet.

[backinsaddle]

JackL, I agree with cheropride and Anoriginal, however, going back to make things right with the owner is an awesome idea.

[JackL]

Ah PS - Can you make that Mich Ultra Light - 

Now that is no problem. I suppose I should have read the 'warning' that a new post was made during my last reply...I might not have hit it.

Oh well, AnOriginal. I'll bet you are a hell of a guy, and I hope to ride with you one day, even if your buddy wants to stuff me in a 55 full of lime.

[big-daddy]

I wouldnt waste a 55gal drum on you.

[JackL]

I wouldnt waste a 55gal drum on you.

You can pour it out when you are done, you know in the hole where you throw the doe and such.

[Joedirt]

Ohh snap Ya'll..... Hell Nawww

[greenmachine]

Ok well I guess since the owners are family of mine I will chime in. Yes you should have stayed out of the ST AUGUSTINE sodded front yard. The big hole right out in front of the camp is called "the gator hole" it is usually 6' deep in water & the owners son is usually in it on his quad as well, but it is usually underwater. These guys are some of the coolest guys with the best toys out there bar none. Go to the airboat & track show & look for "still killin time". As for the "no airboats' getting out there, you are way wrong. His boat will run out there on dry ground & back without sweating. But just to let you know his ful track is one of the fastest out there & yes it will outrun any quad you cold dream of taking out there. Yes if they came up on you, there would be a problem if they felt you were tearing things up & yes they would be really PISSED if they knew you were posting there camp on an open forum. BTW, Jim is 6'4" & goes 260lbs. That camp is theres & they are grandfathered in I can assure you of that 100%. That is why it is 2story & not 2000 sq ft single level. I hope you will take the time to remove all pics showing the camp. I am gonna forward this post to his email & I hope you all get to drink a cold beer sometime. But please remove the pics of the camp, because now every yahoo who has seen it wants to go there. That camp has survived many hurricanes & fires, but one jackazz vandal & thief can ruin it just from your pics. In closing, lets keep the holey lands holey & show respect to anyone who has built there camps out there to last for years to come. A lot of sweat & money is involved out there & A LOT of guys will fight for that camp, just be careful & always show respect & you will someday get a chance to party on that porch, drink cold beer & eat steaks with that crew.


Steve

[Joedirt]

Ok well I guess since the owners are family of mine I will chime in. Yes you should have stayed out of the ST AUGUSTINE sodded front yard. The big hole right out in front of the camp is called "the gator hole" it is usually 6' deep in water & the owners son is usually in it on his quad as well, but it is usually underwater. These guys are some of the coolest guys with the best toys out there bar none. Go to the airboat & track show & look for "still killin time". As for the "no airboats' getting out there, you are way wrong. His boat will run out there on dry ground & back without sweating. But just to let you know his ful track is one of the fastest out there & yes it will outrun any quad you cold dream of taking out there. Yes if they came up on you, there would be a problem if they felt you were tearing things up & yes they would be really PISSED if they knew you were posting there camp on an open forum. BTW, Jim is 6'4" & goes 260lbs. That camp is theres & they are grandfathered in I can assure you of that 100%. That is why it is 2story & not 2000 sq ft single level. I hope you will take the time to remove all pics showing the camp. I am gonna forward this post to his email & I hope you all get to drink a cold beer sometime. But please remove the pics of the camp, because now every yahoo who has seen it wants to go there. That camp has survived many hurricanes & fires, but one jackazz vandal & thief can ruin it just from your pics. In closing, lets keep the holey lands holey & show respect to anyone who has built there camps out there to last for years to come. A lot of sweat & money is involved out there & A LOT of guys will fight for that camp, just be careful & always show respect & you will someday get a chance to party on that porch, drink cold beer & eat steaks with that crew.


Steve

OK you have been asked to remove them.....ball is in your court...do the right thing.