ONF accident

[Ride1Rob]

What most of you fail to realize is that 100% of the blame sometimes doesn't go against who caused the accident. (Sounds dumb, but keep reading). Not all ATVers have access to computers and most don't frequent ATV websites such as ATVFlorida.com. Most don't understand how dangerous ONF has become since this new system has been implemented. With that being said, it's not totally your fellow riders you should be upset with. Not everyone has enough common since to think SAFETY 1st when they throw that leg over their bikes. There are many that have no regard for their own safety let alone others (riding with no protective gear/helmet). Instead your anger needs to be towards the people who have taken thousands of trails with thousands of miles of riding area and crammed us all in a couple hundred miles of trails that go both ways. Sure, there was always the possibilty of collisions happening before. But now it ahella lot more likely to happen with this new system. That was my argument with DaddyGrizz when this was being implemented. He argued that it would make it safer because it would slow people down. There were those of us that argued things like this would be bound to happen. ONF will never be safe and there will always be accidents like this to happen as long as the trails system is setup the way it is. I've ridden the new system once and have no desire to go back b/c there are too many bikes in not enough trails.

[1FasterBlaster]

   There is nothing immature about debating.It is not a two year old word.This is how we figure out what the problems are and learn how to resolve them.That is the reason so many of us view these post and reply to them.
  I feel everyone on this site has an opinion that they want to be heard.That is the beauty of this site.There is nothing taken personal, unless someone starts name calling.As long as you don't take it personal, it's not personal.It's a debate.
   I understand that sometimes frustration tends to steer people in the wrong direction,But it's nothing we can't fix with a group ride!!
   My feelings towards everyone on this site.BRING ON THE RALLY!!

[AlterEgo]

Agree - debate toward solution IS what we're after.

I think we're in agreeance that there are two basic uses for the trail system - track style riding (generally sport quads) and day cruising/forest access (utes and utvs). I think we can also agree that the two are not compatible when you compress them into a limited, two-way trail system, often only wide enough for one-way travel and many bermed blind curves - as is evidenced by the many accidents over the years, including ours last weekend.

The following points are my own, you may or may not agree with them. The trail system belongs to all users. No rider is good enough to take a blind corner and pretend that they can avoid another on-coming rider. No rider should have to assume a safety risk of riding the trail, beyond their own skill, to allow another rider to operate however they feel is fun (just like you can't go 150mph down the highway because it's fun or you're running late - because it endangers other drivers).

So generally the problem is one of safety - and secondarily keeping trails open by avoiding legislation arising from safety issues concerning ATVs.

It has been explained to me since I first posted that one-way trails are not the solution. That one-way trails create a false sense of security that nobody is coming the other way and speed can be increased without worry on blind corners. One way trails have many entry points and a risk of somebody turning around and heading the other way because they don't want to complete the loop - but now with riders coming even faster from the other way because it's a "one-way" trail.

Speed limits are another solution - and it may come to that. This is very controversial and hard to enforce, but may provide incentive to slow down. And it can happen - take a look to the south at Big Cypress Preserve that employs a trail wide 15mph speed limit.

How about a closed-loop mx-style trail with no speed limit, designated as one way and its own trailhead/campground? Other trails would be made safer for day-cruisers with a posted speed limit. This is not perfect, because it becomes a battle of distribution of trail miles for riding types, but a suggestion to start debate.

Any other suggestions?

[qt314nfla]

I'm all for having a kiddie/day cruiser trail w/ speed limits and other trails w/ other speed limits for more experienced riders.  However, the problem I see w/ this is ppl already don't know what trails they are on or where they are due to poor mapping and signage.  It would be even worse to see a family w/ little ones pop out on a free for all trail and think they were on a 15 mph trail then have no where to go to get to another trail.

[AlterEgo]

That's why it would have to be closed-loop with its own trialhead/campground.

[Chillinthemost]

The other problem is that it is boring as hell for the kids to ride in dads dust all day and not have any open areas to ride with a little Independence. Rodman and Eureka pits were great for this and they are both no longer accessable.

[AintSkeered]

Thanks to all who've participated in this discussion, everyone learns. I myself enjoy a wide-open trail with no speed limit and wish I didn't have to go to the Miccousukee track and Durhamtown Plantation to feed that hunger. However, I wish I didn't have to go to work either, but, I must. If I could depend upon people to always do the right thing, I wouldn't be recommending victims of careless, reckless and/or negligent OHV operators call law enforcement. I simply won't give careless, reckless or negligent OHV operators any chance to flee their moral and financial responsibility to the victim(s) of an accident. A promissory note would be the only evidence, puts the entire burden of collecting restitution upon the person holding that note(e.g. OJ case) and you can't cash a promissory note in for a new eye, spine, spleen, child, etc.. BS! What do you say we remove Paradise(all trees, other blind spots) and put up a parking lot?

[1FasterBlaster]

   Yes , it is a pain to have to go to court...I know,I've had to do it.But it does work.

[ltz-400]

first off lets start this off by saying that everyone knows that if the forest was one way travel there would be none of these head on collisions happening. second we all have went fast through the forest from dirt bikes to atvs, giant go carts hell even jeeps. if i get into an accident in the forest im not going to be happy at all. i have kids and neices and nephews who ride also. everyone needs to be very careful and safe.

[AintSkeered]

It's not my intent to turn this into a pissing contest, but, if it's a "right" to expect all others to dodge you when you blast around a blind turn, then we're certainly forced to let the law determine that. So, when those "accidents" occur, call the Cops and prove your rights!

[Busta Nutt]

Shouldn't it be a common courtesy to slow down to a safe speed when approaching a blind corner to ensure the safety of yourself as well as any oncoming riders? I know that is my policy.

[Chillinthemost]

Shouldn't it be a common courtesy to slow down to a safe speed when approaching a blind corner to ensure the safety of yourself as well as any oncoming riders? I know that is my policy.

Exaxctly, thats my policy too. Doesn't mean you have to go slow, just always assume somebody might be coming around the corner.

[offroadjunkee]

Hey LTZ bring your ass on out in the open. You talk big sh*t on here so let's see in person what you're about. I'm quite sure I'll handle anything your ass can bring on and if I can't I'll damn sure have fun trying.

A typical response. Exactly why we don't ride there anymore. Last year a young kid in a group we were hanging with stole stuff from my truck. I was mad and played it as cool as possible.... then came the outburst... "Dem's fightin' wurds". Yup... I spelled it wrong on purpose..... Not to say all trips to the ONF were bad, but this one caused us to stop going.... This mentality, carried by a small percentage that ruins it for the rest of us. It seems more like the locals try to run the forest and ruin it for those who are trying to enjoy a day off.

I am glad no one got seriously hurt..... That really sucks when someone is clearly not paying attention and hurts themself or someone else.

Another quote:
"I pray you and the and the other rider is o'k.  If we go around and start beating up each other in the forest what will that do?  Are we no better off than the people who wants to stop us from riding in ONF?"

[MadMudder]

Well heres what I have to say. We ride like allot of people on here. Slow and taking breaks and stopping to play in the mud and just crusing around all day. But consider this from a sport quad riders perspective. We are all saying that people who ride fast are menaces and are going to be the downfall of our riding area here. But what if im a guy who has a tricked out 450r or yfz and I have beed riding fast for years before they put this stuipid new system in. So now I have to ride at 15 just because some guys with rhinos and utes want to ride slow? Its the same idea. I personally think if you want to ride fast then go ahead! They could deveise a system to have trails sutied for fast riding and have others for utes or something but they shouldnt have to change their ways just because we want them to.


   We all know what were getting into the moment we back off of the trailer. We all know you could hit a log stuck out in the trail and fly into a tree. We all know that there is a high risk of accidents. So why are we pointing fingers at each other and saying the other is wrong? IF you cant handle the fact that somebody might come around the turn and smash into you then dont ride.

     I would also like to note if somebody from the first paragraph comes around the corner and hits you or exaticly like what happened in the wreck and you leave them there while there bleeding or have something broken the you should be dragged through a briar patch by a tractor. Im sorry but that is just terrible. If you can look a fellow rider dead in the eyes while there just laying there and walk off then I hope you fall in a well. That is one of the most inhumane terrible things you can do to a person. If they did it on purpose with the soul intent of running you over then its different. But if it was something that they didnt mean to do then, well you get what I mean. What if your driving down the road in your car and a kid runs out to get a ball or something and you hit them. But the stupid kid dented your car. So its their fault and all you should do is call the police and let them deal with it? Well, thats different! NO ITS NOT. Its the same idea and if you can do that then I wish you woudnt ride at all.

  

[1FasterBlaster]

   There are places for hauling azz and going slow.Never go fast around blind corners.
   And guys, please don't get so personal on here.This is a family forum.That kinda behavior has gotten people kicked off of here.This site is very valuable in a lot of ways,I would hate to see you lose this.
   Like I said," this is a debate, not a personal attack on anyone."

[AlterEgo]

Mad Mudder - the only finger pointing going on is at riders that won't slow down for blind coners and put other people's safety at risk. We encountered many different riders over the weekend, from jeeps to mx bikers to utes and utvs to sport quads. 99% of them were very courteous and tried to accommodate each other - either slowing down or pulling to the side and waving. However, it was the one rider that replaced common sense with a selfish need to ride carelessly that ruined the day. We were lucky in this incident - most times a head on at 30+ doesn't come out so good.

When you're old enough to drive, you'll learn that's what traffic laws are all about - being able to accommodate all drivers while keeping everyone safe.

[Wildbrain400EX]

Hey LTZ bring your ass on out in the open. You talk big sh*t on here so let's see in person what you're about. I'm quite sure I'll handle anything your ass can bring on and if I can't I'll damn sure have fun trying.

     YA SURE GOT SOME BIG INTERNET MUSSLES FELLOW   

[AintSkeered]

I'm sorry, indeed, I did say that I would not let my family render first aid to you if you crashed into us. That is just plain wrong, but, it's also just something I carelessly said, not did. Big difference! Perhaps, it might make a difference to some to know that I'm a Florida licensed Registered Respiratory Therapist and Registered Nurse who runs a Cardiac Catheterization Lab. I've by my actions of 30 years that I care about sick and injured human beings. And, I also believe that if I left you injured in the forest, I'd lose my licenses. However, I take very strong exception to the ignorant statement that, "We all know what we're getting into the moment we back off of the trailer. We all know you could hit a log stuck out in the trail and fly into a tree. We all know that there is a high risk of accidents. So why are we pointing fingers at each other and saying the other is wrong? IF you cant handle the fact that somebody might come around the turn and smash into you then don't ride." I can understand this nonsense only if the ATV operator is as intelligent as that log sticking out in the trail! That log is not selfishly, irresponsibly and negligently racing around a blind corner with the full knowledge it could permanently injure another human being! WTF are YOU to tell anyone not to ride in ONF? You're exactly who we need to be worried about and who we need law enforcement to protect us from. Call the cops on these guys, folks!

[1FasterBlaster]

   I'm done with this one!!!

[MadMudder]

Yeah im out too. If you want to call the cops on me because I said what I said then go right ahead. Ill even tell them how to get here. I didnt say who can and cant ride in ONF. I did say that if you cant handle the fact that you could get hurt and you would beat the crap of of another rider while they are laying on the ground after an accident then I would wish you wouldnt ride. But I didnt say you our anyone else couldnt. And im sorry for saying the whole tractor thing if you didnt mean it. But if it seriously offends you to the point where you would call the cops on a 15yr old kid that made a harmless post on the internet then go ahead. Like I said ill give them directions and everything. IM not even saying that you should ride stuipid. I just wanted people to look at the situation from a different point of view. Thats all.

[AintSkeered]

Hold on there my friend. I'm not saying call the cops on you for voicing your opinion. You're entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that it's selfish, reckless and irresponsible to race around blind corners without regard for the safety of innocent human beings who'd also like to enjoy ONF. And, since ONF is immune from lawsuits of this nature, I'm willing to bet that no civil court jury will make a judgement for you, if you run into someone and they sue you. So, if you insist upon your right to do so, I'm advising anyone/everyone to call the cops on you. ONF belongs to all of us, not just you! Go use an MX track, if you want to race around turns, that's what they're designed for. This is getting more and more like the cigarette smoking issue. The less willing people are to compromise for the safety of all, the more anti-this and anti-that legislation it spawns.

[MadMudder]

So I have to have the cops called on me because im not on an MX track? So your saying that you have to ride slow otherwise your area menance a should be arrested for riding fast? l really think its bad that people that are used to riding fast have to quit riding because of this stupid trail system. If someone comes around a turn and hits you and they didnt get your name and hunt you down to hit you then its called an accident. SO your basically saying you should call the cops over someone that might hit you somewhere in the future? Wow. But ok..... Next time everyone sees me or anyone else that you think might hit you then whip out that phone and make sure you have the police on their way!



    Worst part about all this is the fact that I dont even ride like this. I have a 250 mudbike that might get to 30mph on flat ground. I was just trying to get people to see the issue from a different point of view besides their own. But I guess we cant do that. Everyone thinks its their way or the highway. Im not endorsing riding stupid. Theres fast trail riding and then theres stuipid. But you know the risks before you show up that this stuff could happen. Besides what are the cops gonna do? Ride infront of you and protect you from a kid riding a quad??!

[stacktester]

Couey needs to be drug thru the forest behind some of these fast sport quad riders lol. That sob doesn't deserve the chance to have another breath. We will never learn that these types need to have their nuts cut off. I have a 9 y/o daughter and I can't imagine how this man feels who lost his child.

[novadave]

Your not gunna change the way people like to ride.  What needs to be changed is the trail system. They need to be 1 way. I ride in ONF alot and I've had more close calls with logs and stumps on the trails then head ons with other riders. This debate has turned us against eachother ,but we are all on the same team. Remember this is the time when we need to rally together or we won't have any places to ride in the future. So lets  and make up.

[1FasterBlaster]

   I don't know...do you have double D's and a great azz? LOL