What's up with the markers on the trail system?

[banana-man]

Now don't get me wrong, my whole family and I LOVE ONF, but the marked trail system is a mess!  I took my boys to the ONF for 4 days of riding, we hit Delancy loops, LL, Pipeline, HV, and TP trails.  On the maps, they look like a continous trail, but inside they're all hacked up, with unmarked branches, and crosses, also areas where the trail is marked and splits into 2 trails(you have no idea which way to go)?  They're all whooped out....It was posted months ago that they had machines to take care of this?  The whoops were sooo much worse on the marked trails.  I really wanted to park the truck, go into the forest on one side of the street, follow the loop(like the map shows), and come out the other side.  Once on the trail you'll come to branches that are unmarked and have no idea which way to go.  I always have the GPS, but the map would lead someone to believe that you don't need one, and they could be lost for days.  A hint would be to find the whooped out trails, and chances are good that you'll be back on the marked trail system. 

Another question:  Why are the trails 2 ways?  Many times we almost got slammed at 40 by an oncomming quad or bike.  It was a little freaky knowing that at any min someone haulin azz around that blind corner could kill you or your kid.  At least on the unmarked trails there's less of a chance of a head on with another OHV.  With the marked trails you will encounter (many times) others haulin azz straight at you comming from the other direction.  Unfortunatly it's only a matter of time.  Tell everyone that they have to use these trails, in either direction....more riders...it's gonna happen, and more bad press.

[viper]

And in April they will start charging you for this. Once they have your money do you really think the trails will be maintained?? Think about it.

I have found a website that has a map of the trail system, with the numbered roads you cross, it is a little better. At least I know some of the time where I am at. The website is http://www.freewebs.com/offroadinfo go to the north map. The south map is a map of the proposed south end trail system, along with other information.

Happy trials..

[Mars]

The marked trails criss-cross manny miles of old trails. The many old trails will get "close"  markes as time goes by.
 Forestry folks believe keeping the trails two-way will keep the speeds down.  Wear your gear and keep the kids behind you........

[viper]

but they should still be well marked, and you shouldn't need a gps system. I would want my kid in front and not behind me, so I can keep track of him and make sure he is safe.

[Stewards]

Mars - Don't get mad at this, but I am going to disagree with you, that is not why the trails are one way.

Bannana Man & Mars - History 101

The reason why the trails are one way is not to keep your speeds down, that is not what the USFS says. When the ONF had to go to a trail system they consulted with NOHVCC and a few other people in Idaho, and Oregon, and NOHVCC is working with the USFS on their trails, one way trails will become two way trails, so why not make them two way trails. That is the reason why they are two way. This was discussed on another thread about 7 months ago on this forum.

Mars do you know about the closed unless posted open theories? Here is history lesson 102 - all trails are closed unless posted open. If there is not a sign to tell you that the trail exists, then it is closed. Another words if the trail sign does not exist there is no trail.

They may criss cross old trails, but the trail system should be clearly marked, and by the sounds of what bannana man said, they are not clearly marked. If I see closed markers on the old trails I will be very surprised, I haven't seen one yet, in all the forest. Lets make clear what closed markers are - brown posts with USFS stickers on them, say closed trails. Don't exist.

As far as keeping the kids behind you, if he is a young kid, that is dum, I agree with viper there is no way to keep track of him. If he gets hurt, I want to know and if you think about it, if you are riding first you don't even see him.

Stewards of the Land

[banana-man]

Well we did see a few signs with the circle with the line crossed through it, but many more times we would come to a crossing and just have to guess which way to go, we saw several blank signs, and once we saw a broken sign laying down.  The rangers, sorry to say looked like the stereo typical county worker(no disrespect intended), but they were slow, and labored in their movement, masses at rest.....  I saw them flag down a quad flying down the right of way, and then let him go shirtless and without a helmet back down the right of way(spelled out as illegal in the rules).  Another riding on 97 was flagged down just to be let go on the right of way.

The fees will only hurt us rule abiding people, by forcing me to pay for something I thought I already paid for with my taxes, and my FL state reg fee.  I really don't see them chasing you down for a look to see if you have a sticker.  Where will the money go?  How will they enforce this?  Sorry but this is just another way to tax us, and we won't see sh!t for it.   

[Stewards]

Well we did see a few signs with the circle with the line crossed through it, but many more times we would come to a crossing and just have to guess which way to go, we saw several blank signs, and once we saw a broken sign laying down.  The rangers, sorry to say looked like the stereo typical county worker(no disrespect intended), but they were slow, and labored in their movement, masses at rest.....  I saw them flag down a quad flying down the right of way, and then let him go shirtless and without a helmet back down the right of way(spelled out as illegal in the rules).  Another riding on 97 was flagged down just to be let go on the right of way.

If the signs had an atv, motorcycle or whatever in the circle with a slash through it, you know what that means, I don't have to tell you. I haven't seen any with just a circle and a slash through them, interesting.

Also remember government workers are government workers, getting paid with yours and mine tax dollars.

First lets address shirtless and without a helmet, there are no rules in the forest on riding without a helmet and shirt, except for the children and that is the state rules, any child under 16 must have a helmet, I believe that is the only rule, and that is state mandatory.

Second - without a helmet back down the right of way(spelled out as illegal in the rules). If it was a ranger that stopped this person, I mean a person in Forest Uniform, he might not be able to give the person a ticket, because he/she is not autorized to do that. Also if the ranger was able to give out a ticket, it might have been the first offense, and decided to cut the person a break, I hope someone will do that to me. What that person should have done, is escort the person on the ohv back to a trail that he/she can ride.

The fees - your right the fees are only going to hurt the law abiding citizens, and I also agree with you that they are not going to chase them down to look for a sticker. Where they will look for a sticker is at the trail head. If you are talking about you state reg fees as the OHV sticker fee, that money goes back to the T. Mark Schmidt fund, which the OHV advisory board has control over. I am going to stay away from that subject.

Where will the money go - supposefully back into the trail system, for maintence, equipment etc. According to the OHV advisory board, this trail system has to substain itself, because it is too big.

I also think I pay the taxes to the government, the forest should be free and no fee.

Bannana Man - I hope I was helpful in answering some of your questions. The thing I hate the most is people giving out information that is not correct. If the person doesn't know the answer, they shouldn't answer.

Jack
Stewards of the Land

[tony pitts]

I am fine with fees just dont tell me where I can and cannot ride. I have ridden the forrest for over 6 years now. I dont care what person and what degree he has who ever came up with the 2 way trail system needs to go back to what ever state the came and screw up there trail system. the forest was fine with its own trail system. all i keep hearing is how much damage were doing to the forest. well 90% of the damage is caused by full size trucks and locals throwing garbage everywhere.If you want to see trail damage go right after hunting season and i will show you some damage to trails trees and anything else were getting blame for.1 day after we ride the trails with our sport quads you can't even tell we were there. and yes the trail system sucks unless you like going on a sunday drive through the forrest.I didn't buy a quad that goes 75mph to go on a sunday drive. so leave the dam trails alone and let us ride the way we want and i will pay any fee they want............

[Stewards]

Tony - I agree with you all the way.. but remember it is always easier to blame someone else for what is happening, it is not you, not me, not my brother, it is everyone that is responsible. We are all in this together. It is not only you that are getting blamed everyone is getting blamed. Example in the ANF, according to the USFS the motorcycle do as much damage as the 4 X 4 trucks. I know a few people that had to prove that wasn't true, unfortunately everyone is grouped into ohv's.

Stewards wishes everyone a Happy New Year.

Jack
Stewards of the Land

[Mars]

Mars - Don't get mad at this, but I am going to disagree with you, that is not why the trails are one way.
BIG SNIP

I don't get bent too easy...

I did ride 52 miles last time I was in ONF and I did come across many "close" markers. "Closed" as in croosed out ATV/bike/jeep pictures........

[alafiaoutlaw]

Now don't get me wrong, my whole family and I LOVE ONF, but the marked trail system is a mess!  I took my boys to the ONF for 4 days of riding, we hit Delancy loops, LL, Pipeline, HV, and TP trails.  On the maps, they look like a continous trail, but inside they're all hacked up, with unmarked branches, and crosses, also areas where the trail is marked and splits into 2 trails(you have no idea which way to go)?  They're all whooped out....It was posted months ago that they had machines to take care of this?  The whoops were sooo much worse on the marked trails.  I really wanted to park the truck, go into the forest on one side of the street, follow the loop(like the map shows), and come out the other side.  Once on the trail you'll come to branches that are unmarked and have no idea which way to go.  I always have the GPS, but the map would lead someone to believe that you don't need one, and they could be lost for days.  A hint would be to find the whooped out trails, and chances are good that you'll be back on the marked trail system. 

Another question:  Why are the trails 2 ways?  Many times we almost got slammed at 40 by an oncomming quad or bike.  It was a little freaky knowing that at any min someone haulin azz around that blind corner could kill you or your kid.  At least on the unmarked trails there's less of a chance of a head on with another OHV.  With the marked trails you will encounter (many times) others haulin azz straight at you comming from the other direction.  Unfortunatly it's only a matter of time.  Tell everyone that they have to use these trails, in either direction....more riders...it's gonna happen, and more bad press.

This is going to be a big problem with the designated trail system. Riders now are confined to a lot smaller area to ride so more traffic in these areas will be a problem. It will probably end up being a reason for them to shut the ONF down at a later time. They will use the excuse that there are alot of ATV accidents in the forest to have a reason to close the trails more than likely. Be carefull because this trail system is causing a hazzard to us as riders.

[BradG47]

PLEASE do NOT bash the trail system.  The mapped trails aren't perfect and will never please everyone but it is really, really good right like it is right now.   

With 30 years of off road riding experience in many states of this nation I can speak with authority that we have it REALLY good here.   As time goes by and the trail system matures and expands it will only get better.   I spoke to the camp host and asked what the situation is with the trail grooming and he stated that once Deer season is over (just ended Sunday) that the grooming will start.   It will be nice to knock down some of the whoops.   I rode at ONF Delancy this weekend and again we had an awesome day.   We had a total of 10 people in our group.  We had 6 bikes and 4 quads.  The riding ability ranged from beginner to A Class woods rider and we all love the place.   The really great thing about the trails at ONF is that there are long stretches where fast riders can go fast and the slower ones can catch up at the intersections.    You simply cannot do that at Croom.  We keep going back week after week and look forward to our next ride there.   If you don't like it, please don't go there and most importantly don't complain so it ruins it for those who are appreciative of what we have.

[banana-man]

Now don't get me wrong, my whole family and I LOVE ONF, but the marked trail system is a mess! 

I started my post off with how we love the ONF.  Not bashing, just expressing the MAJOR PROBLEMS with the system.  I have to totally dissagree with "really, really good right like it is right now" as would MANY others here.  If you've ridden the trails(we just got through with just about all of the No trails) then you would have to agree with the facts that they are inadequately marked, and not as promised.  This does not stop us from having a great time(family/friends+atv+out doors= great time), but making the comments that they are not delivering EXACTLY what they promised.  Unless they get feedback, they will never know the problems. 

2 way trails = TROUBLE

A perfect example of how the literature differs from the the trail system.  While we were there we searched many hrs for 3 young boys on bikes, that had been told that they could go on ahead, because their parrents thought the trail made a nice, clearly marked loop, like in the brochure, and they'd end up meeting up at the back of the group in an hr or so.   NOPE, confusing trails, unmarked intersections, ......they were lost, and were not found by the time we had to go, with a doz people looking for them.  I assume thay found them at some point because it was not on the news, but as of several hrs of searching, they were not found.

Now don't get me wrong, my whole family and I LOVE ONF, but the marked trail system is a mess! 

[lisa]

   Um BradG47, I hate to break it to you, but they are not going to expand this system. Please explain where you spent your time riding the trails with all that experience, and in what capacity. Many rangers who are for closures except for themselves and a few select people can claim to have the same experience you do.

   Pardon my skepticism, but you are the first one that I have heard to really praise the trails down here. No one, not us 4x4 (not all of us are the problem either guys) not the ATVers (I have seen some places along the roads I drive here in Lake CO. ripped up by ATVers too) not the motorcycles are happy with what the Forest does. We don't expect everyone to be happy, but there are too many problems with this system to think it is any good!