Phase II of trail system

[GrizzlyBear]

The Forest Service has announced the Phase II trail system:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/florida/projects/

When you get to this page click on Scoping letter.

The are looking for comments and will have open house at the Seminole Ranger Station on Nov 7th and the Lake George Ranger Station on November 8th.

Basically what they are purposing is a 97 miles system that will have 2 routes going north out of the Big Scrub Campground. Ir will include stops at Blue Sink, Farles Prarie, Mill Dam, Juniper Campground, Shanty Pond, Lake Eaton sinkhole (you can not ride in the sinkhole) and connect into the 88 store and the trail system in the north.  There will be 2 loops.

A seperate road system is being purposed for licensed vehicles.

Comments on the trail system should be emailed to Rick Lint, Head Ranger at: rlint@fs.fed.us.  I would appreciate you sending me a copy of your email: Terry@onfa.org 

I believe they have come up with a workable system, but it could always be better.  NOW is the time to comment.  Also, if you have any additions for phase I, might as well bring them up again.  One of the things I did notice is that there is a trail out of the back of Ida_mann's subdivision that was included in Phase I, that noe connects into Phase II.  Also they are putting a spur from the southern end of the longleaf trail with a trailhead at the corner of rt 19 and 316 in Salt Springs, across from Elite Resorts.

[eldiablo64]

so you could ride from big scrub to lake delancey?that would be pretty cool

[bad2thebone]

but how many miles of trails do we have to ride on the adventure trail before we get to the long leaf trail and will there be speed limits.

[AintSkeered]

Grizz, thanks for your attention to this! We appreciate your efforts.

[Sleazy_Rider78]

Thanks for all your work on this Grizzlybear, how about another big group ride for the opening up of Phase II?

[GrizzlyBear]

I'm trying to work on another ride, before phase II, as it could be a year away.  I'm also open to ideas.

From Big Scrub to the Longleaf trail will probably be about 40 miles.

[indianjoe]

Grizzlybear,

That would be great and maybe things would work out and I could make this one...

[logger]

A simplified verison the the Route Designation is at http://www.freewebs.com/solora click information. A map will follow.

[eldiablo64]

yeah maybe I would actually get to meet some of you guys this time!!!

[Jeffgre]

Thanks Grizz.......You do a great job.....Let's ride again soon.....

[Eworm]

The Forest Service has announced the Phase II trail system:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/florida/projects/

When you get to this page click on Scoping letter.

The are looking for comments and will have open house at the Seminole Ranger Station on Nov 7th and the Lake George Ranger Station on November 8th.

Basically what they are purposing is a 97 miles system that will have 2 routes going north out of the Big Scrub Campground. Ir will include stops at Blue Sink, Farles Prarie, Mill Dam, Juniper Campground, Shanty Pond, Lake Eaton sinkhole (you can not ride in the sinkhole) and connect into the 88 store and the trail system in the north.  There will be 2 loops.

A seperate road system is being purposed for licensed vehicles.

Comments on the trail system should be emailed to Rick Lint, Head Ranger at: rlint@fs.fed.us.  I would appreciate you sending me a copy of your email: Terry@onfa.org 

I believe they have come up with a workable system, but it could always be better.  NOW is the time to comment.  Also, if you have any additions for phase I, might as well bring them up again.  One of the things I did notice is that there is a trail out of the back of Ida_mann's subdivision that was included in Phase I, that noe connects into Phase II.  Also they are putting a spur from the southern end of the longleaf trail with a trailhead at the corner of rt 19 and 316 in Salt Springs, across from Elite Resorts.

Hey Grizz, do you know if this means we will be able to ride out of Elite?
Also, you mention two loops. What do you mean by that? Will there be one-way trails or, extremely dangerous, two-way trails?

[GrizzlyBear]

The new trails are called the adventure trail,so that you will ride and enjoy the sights.  They will be two way.  Two loops so that you do not have to see the same things twice.  You will be able to park across the road from elite so that you can wlak to a resturant.  No entry or exit or parking.

[Eworm]

The new trails are called the adventure trail,so that you will ride and enjoy the sights. 

What are the ones now? Where are the trails we can ride safely on, without having to worry about someone coming around the corner?

[bad2thebone]

There will never be any trials your can ride safely on without someone coming around the corner. A copy of the map is located out on http://new.photos.yahoo.com/js2006raptor click on picture for enlargement

[Ida_Mann]

dunno what kind of scenery they are looking for except lots of whoops on the trails near my place up there,,,,,and what it looks like is that anyone from my neighborhood will have to ride illegally to get to the trails,,,,allthough I see one scenic part of the trails that goes near a very nice area,,,,but of course that area has been closed for years to any vehicles so you can't get to the scenic part unless you get off the quad and walk a couple hundred yards.

Id@

[Eworm]

I cc'd you, Terry

Hello Rick,

I represent a large group of ATV riders that are concerned about the new two-way trail system. First, we would like to thank you, Terry and the others involved for the hard work you have been doing and we want you to know that we are here to assist you in any way we can. However, I think there is a grave misunderstanding about the amount of riders and there level of experience in the forest at any given moment and I hope that it does not take, someone getting seriously hurt or even dying before things change. When we ride Ocala, we ride the trails at a high rate of speed. Currently, the forest is huge and finding another rider on the same trail is rare. By limiting our riding area, you now put the same amount of riders into a small space, and in many eyes, this scenario can be deadly. Ocala is becoming more and more popular and the accidents will increase if something is not done. We ride safe and we slow down on blind corners. However, we slow to about 20MPH and if someone is coming around that turn at 20MPH that makes the impact at 40MPH, not pretty on a quad. Please reconsider your two way system and make them one way!!! It is the safest bet and most ATV parks are adopting this philosophy anyways. The Ocala system would be referred to, as an example and a leader in trail systems. However, if we continue to ride two trails in a confined area the accidents and deaths will increase and the forest will be shut down to 4 wheelers quicker than anyone say, I told you so.....   

Thanks for listening,

[Ida_Mann]

I cc'd you, Terry

Hello Rick,

I represent a large group of ATV riders that are concerned about the new two-way trail system. First, we would like to thank you, Terry and the others involved for the hard work you have been doing and we want you to know that we are here to assist you in any way we can. However, I think there is a grave misunderstanding about the amount of riders and there level of experience in the forest at any given moment and I hope that it does not take, someone getting seriously hurt or even dying before things change. When we ride Ocala, we ride the trails at a high rate of speed. Currently, the forest is huge and finding another rider on the same trail is rare. By limiting our riding area, you now put the same amount of riders into a small space, and in many eyes, this scenario can be deadly. Ocala is becoming more and more popular and the accidents will increase if something is not done. We ride safe and we slow down on blind corners. However, we slow to about 20MPH and if someone is coming around that turn at 20MPH that makes the impact at 40MPH, not pretty on a quad. Please reconsider your two way system and make them one way!!! It is the safest bet and most ATV parks are adopting this philosophy anyways. The Ocala system would be referred to, as an example and a leader in trail systems. However, if we continue to ride two trails in a confined area the accidents and deaths will increase and the forest will be shut down to 4 wheelers quicker than anyone say, I told you so.....   

Thanks for listening,

Id@

[Eworm]

His response and then mine. Scroll down for his and mine is right below.

Gentlemen,

Please understand that this is a national study and it does not reflect a specific area, but a general rule for OHV areas. Most states have vast, wide open areas to ride in and the trails are cut wide enough for a two-way system. The layout in Ocala is unique, in that, it is heavily wooded, very tight at times, hilly and there are many blind corners. Many of us feel that this landscape is very dangerous, on a two-way trail system, when you take into consideration the amount of sport quads riding Ocala. Being that we are concerned citizens, how many of us would need to agree with this prior to making any changes? We are a large group and can grow if need be. Please let me know. Thanks you for your time.

Eric   


>From: Rick Lint <rlint@fs.fed.us>
>To: "Eric Palma" <ericpalma1129@hotmail.com>
>CC: Bret Bush <bbush@fs.fed.us>,Jim Schmid <jimschmid@fs.fed.us>
>Subject: Re: Ocala Trail System
>Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:47:44 -0500
>
>Thank you for your comments.
>
>Please reference the following information from NOHVCC and the Wernex
>Report (2002):
>
>Fogg (2002:98) in a National OHV Conservation Council (NOVHCC) publication
>discussed the difference of opinion in one-way versus two-way trails.  He
>states that one-way trails are actually not safer because of numerous
>access points, user’s knowledge of which is the correct direction, and
>others on the trail are not expecting anyone going the “wrong” way.  He
>adds that two-way trails double the experience opportunities, and strongly
>recommends that one-way trails only be used in structured, competitive
>venues and events.  In its publication for Off-Highway Motorcycle and ATV
>Trails: Guidelines for Design, Construction, Maintenance, and User
>Satisfaction, the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) does not make any
>recommendation for one-way traffic (Wernex 2002).  It, however, does
>recommend designing switchback and turn entrances and exits for riders
>coming from both directions (Wernex 2002:38).
>
>With what trails are in place for OHVs (not even including new trails
>proposed on the Apalachicola and Ocala), NF in Florida has more riding
>opportunities than any other state in the Southern Region of the Forest
>Service.
>
>Rick

[bad2thebone]

Eric: Your point was good, the wording was no so good. You have to realize the forest does not want to cater to the atv's that want to race, that is what the race tracks are for. What you might have done is left out the mph's and suggested a seperate place or trail to go faster.

The USFS is in partners with NOHVCC on this, they are not going to go against that. Just my 2 cents and a few suggestions. Actually what I think is the ONFA should have helped you out in this, they are the partners with the USFS.

[GrizzlyBear]

If Eric had sent it to me first, I would have suggested the same thing.

[Eworm]

Eric: Your point was good, the wording was no so good. You have to realize the forest does not want to cater to the atv's that want to race, that is what the race tracks are for. What you might have done is left out the mph's and suggested a seperate place or trail to go faster.

The USFS is in partners with NOHVCC on this, they are not going to go against that. Just my 2 cents and a few suggestions. Actually what I think is the ONFA should have helped you out in this, they are the partners with the USFS.

Good point. I am at work and can only give this so much attention? Please, feel free to send whatever you think will sound good and I will integrate it into my next email, cool?

[Eworm]

If Eric had sent it to me first, I would have suggested the same thing.

I will do that from now on, trust me.... Sorry Grizz, it just seems like I am on this boat alone sometime!!

[Eworm]

Here we go:
Please PM me....

I managed a very similar trail systems (almost exactly the same as in
Paisley) on the Kisatchie NF.  The question of one-way vs two-way came up.
We consulted with Tom Crimmins (OHV trail consultant) and he gave the same
advice as that referenced in the NOHVCC guidance.

Again, with the wide-range of user skills, the advice we've been given is
that one-way trails create the false expectation that no one is coming the
other way, which actually makes them more dangerous.  Someone decides to
turn around, someone gets turned around, someone breaks down and they go
back the way they came.

We get more and more users from urban areas that get lost a few feet from
their camp; they don't know the sun sets in the west and which way north
is; and they'd more than likely not be able to be expected to know which
way to go on the trail.

 If they were "one-way", it'd be in name only because, more often than not,
someone would be going the wrong way.   Then here the next person comes,
not slowing down.

No matter how you slice it, there's pluses and minuses and risks either
way.  We've chosen to go with people's advice that have been doing this all
over the country for 25+ years.

If you'd like to discuss further, if I'm missing something -- give a call
at 352-669-3153 and we can discuss.

Rick

[bad2thebone]

You are not on this boat by yourself --- what everyone has to start realizing is that it is not about what you want anymore, it is about what will make sense for the forest. It is also not about quanity but quaility. Although the USFS has not given much quaility. I want to ride down a trail, no matter how long or short it is, at the end of that trail, I want to rest for about 5 minutes, because it was awsome, and then I want to go tackle it again, that is quaility.

In response to Rick --- this was said on a different thread, what happens when I forgot to fill my gas tank, I am only two miles away, I'll turn around and go back. Hence now one way becomes two way. The other scenerio is going to be when his kid is not wearing a helmet, and he has to go back and get it. Again one way trails become two way trails.

Most of the trails out there are wide enough to incorporate what you want to do. There a sections that are narrow. Time to slow down.

[Chillinthemost]

Come on Eric, it isn't going to happen. You have to understand that the forest is not an ATV park but a national forest. If you want to ride one way trails come join me at a XC race.
 What happened to you at the group ride? I'm not going to ride much up there during hunting season but you will have to come up again. You stuck with me better than anyone else has.