I don't get it! Please explain it to me

[debatethis]

Dan - I see where some may get heated over such a discussion, but it won't be me. I am willing to ask such a question as I did actually looking for an answer that makes sense so motivation is not an issue.
Israel was not exactly the focus, just an example. However, they took their land by force fighting several countries at the same time. We took our land from the Indians, does that mean we should give it back? all land since the history of time has been taken and kept by land so looking back and saying they aren't welcome because they took some won't cut it. the thing is that they are there and now they are hated because they are non-muslims that hold land in a muslim dominated region.

back to the original issue - I don't look at Islam as a regligion as a "problem". I'm sure there are tons of Muslims that are great peaceful people. But there are many more that believe that by being Muslim that they have the right and even the responsibility to kill anyone that is not of the same faith.
If they had their way the Muslims would kill all Israelites just because of their faith. When they finished with them they would (as they have before) turn their sites to us. The ultimate goal of many that practice Islam is that of a world composed solely of Muslims.

YEs many wars have been perpetuated based upon religious beliefs, which is usually more of a territory thing. The difference is that while religions (including Christians) have fought each other divided among religious lines, they don't seek to kill everyone in the world escept their particular denonination as the Muslims do. In fact the Muslims obviously are willing to kill their own as evidence by the Iran Iraq war and the crimes committed by Sadam when he gassed so many of his own country.

I don't think the fact that so many hate and kill in the name of Islam is so much my question, it's more of why is it that they are excused? We can' tolerate our soldiers putting panties on an enemy captures head, while they can torture and behead our civilians? not to mention we catch hell for liberating a country (regardless of political point of view or reasons for going in) and they aren't even held to the UN resolutions passed to disarm the terrorists.
The Pope is seen as a horrible person for saying muslims are a violent people, yet the muslims that decided to go out and attack non-muslims are seen as the victims? I still don't get it.

[UncleRico]

Uncle Rico, I like your post and most are very funny but in this case I must be missing something, I don't really understand what your trying to say.  Are you saying Musliim extremist are not the biggest problem the world is facing this very minute?  Please explain!

Also the towel head would not have to wear a helmet because the bed sheet would cushion his closed minded little brain.

Let me clarify:

I was saying that not all Muslims should be held accountable for the actions of a few.

I think that the problem of muslim extremists are second only to the poisioning of spinach in this country by those who hate freedom, namely Ecoli.

[FishaHallic]

Rico, as much as I hate to quote GW but here goes "You either with us or your against us
'  damn that hurt I never thought I would quote him.  I see we have a small difference of opinion on this subject but that's why open discussions are a good thing, we can discuss differences without pulling out a sword and beheading someone.  But just in case I will be bringing my sword to the Ocala ride  .

[UncleRico]

Rico, as much as I hate to quote GW but here goes "You either with us or your against us
'  damn that hurt I never thought I would quote him.  I see we have a small difference of opinion on this subject but that's why open discussions are a good thing, we can discuss differences without pulling out a sword and beheading someone.  But just in case I will be bringing my sword to the Ocala ride  .

It's all good, I abhor violence. I don't even like to see people who deserve to die, die. That's how much of a tree huggin, bleedin' heart liberal I am.

But hey, like you said, it's good that we can agree to disagree, and not cut each other's heads off.


Proverbrs 31:6

[UncleRico]

Rico, as much as I hate to quote GW but here goes "You either with us or your against us
'  damn that hurt I never thought I would quote him.  I see we have a small difference of opinion on this subject but that's why open discussions are a good thing, we can discuss differences without pulling out a sword and beheading someone.  But just in case I will be bringing my sword to the Ocala ride  .

It's all good, I abhor violence. I don't even like to see people who deserve to die, die. That's how much of a tree huggin, bleedin' heart liberal I am.

But hey, like you said, it's good that we can agree to disagree, and not cut each other's heads off.


Proverbs 31:6

[fastrnrik]

 Once again, I know I'm going to regret getting involved in this discussion, but what the hell, I'll throw in my 2 cents.
 The problem with the majority of our opinions is the fact that they are based on information supplied to us by a media that does not portray an accurate picture of actual events. Don't kid yourself, all big media has an agenda, and is controlled by  powerful people and/or corporations who also have agendas.
 The average US citizen has no idea what the real story is. We are force fed "the hard hitting truth" from the media, and constantly reminded of terrorism by the government. The government knows that people would never allow them to "take" their rights. However, a basic rule of psychological warfare is to make you afraid of something, and then offer to protect you from your fears, "but" the trade off is that it's going to cost some of your rights.
 If you really start to research terrorism, and 9/11 in particular, it is clear that this was not something just planned by some Islamic extremists. There was much more involved. I'm not going to go into a whole spill, because I don't want to be dismissed as a "conspiracy kook". Look at the video Uncle Rico posted a week or so ago. It's just a breif overview of what I'm talking about. There too many holes in the entire situation for it to even begin to be true. Start researching it further and you will really start to question what's up.
 
  

[310R_Dude]

310R_Dude , First off why can't this be discussed or debated on this forum?  This is an open discussion forum so I would say this is the best place to discuss this.  I don't see the need to open a whole new website to discuss the Islam problem.   

Secondly, WE (the United States) did not put Isreal where it now located, I believe it was the decision of the League of Nations or the United Nations which ever one they had at the time which was in the late 40's.  Why they did it I don't know but if that area is NOT the Jewish homeland then I don't know where it would be.  Now even if is not the proper place for Isreal it's too late now.   What's done is done and there is no way in he ll that they can move it now.

We must accept the fact that Isreal is where it is and is not going anywhere so now the only question is what can we do to solve the Islamic war on the West?  What are your thoughts?  Whether I agree or disagree with you I still would like to hear others opinion (no matter how wrong they are  ).

1)We have all seen how these threads go "usually", that's all I was stating. Maybe
   this time it will be different
 
2)"We must accept the fact that Isreal is where it is..."  NO, THEY must accept it.
   That is quite different.  Imagine if someone was capable of taking the middle of
   the USA for their own, how would WE think, feel and/or act.

3)Solving the problem... Develop alternative fuel and then they can fight 'til the end
   of time if they desire. the only reason we have interest is OIL, plain and simple!

Peace,
Dan

[FishaHallic]

I'm sorry but IMO that's not even worthy of discussion.  The conspiracy theories have way too many holes in the story to debate and one of them is that there would have to be 1000's of people involved and yet none of these people has talked, not likely.  The fact is we were attacked by Islamic extremist on 9-11, we have seen OBL admit it on tape, and we know who the perps where, all Islamic extremist.   Do you guys think that the liberal leaning press as you call it would not be all over the story of our government being involved in 9-11, that's pulitzer prize winning stuff.  Anyhow that is a whole nother thread that will need to be addressed after we take care of our current problem........................Islam.

[310R_Dude]

Dan - I see where some may get heated over such a discussion, but it won't be me. I am willing to ask such a question as I did actually looking for an answer that makes sense so motivation is not an issue.
Israel was not exactly the focus, just an example. However, they took their land by force fighting several countries at the same time. We took our land from the Indians, does that mean we should give it back? all land since the history of time has been taken and kept by land so looking back and saying they aren't welcome because they took some won't cut it. the thing is that they are there and now they are hated because they are non-muslims that hold land in a muslim dominated region.

back to the original issue - I don't look at Islam as a regligion as a "problem". I'm sure there are tons of Muslims that are great peaceful people. But there are many more that believe that by being Muslim that they have the right and even the responsibility to kill anyone that is not of the same faith.
If they had their way the Muslims would kill all Israelites just because of their faith. When they finished with them they would (as they have before) turn their sites to us. The ultimate goal of many that practice Islam is that of a world composed solely of Muslims.

YEs many wars have been perpetuated based upon religious beliefs, which is usually more of a territory thing. The difference is that while religions (including Christians) have fought each other divided among religious lines, they don't seek to kill everyone in the world escept their particular denonination as the Muslims do. In fact the Muslims obviously are willing to kill their own as evidence by the Iran Iraq war and the crimes committed by Sadam when he gassed so many of his own country.

I don't think the fact that so many hate and kill in the name of Islam is so much my question, it's more of why is it that they are excused? We can' tolerate our soldiers putting panties on an enemy captures head, while they can torture and behead our civilians? not to mention we catch hell for liberating a country (regardless of political point of view or reasons for going in) and they aren't even held to the UN resolutions passed to disarm the terrorists.
The Pope is seen as a horrible person for saying muslims are a violent people, yet the muslims that decided to go out and attack non-muslims are seen as the victims? I still don't get it.

I was just using the "creation" of territory known as Isreal as a starting point, not the entire
answer.

Okay, the reason you don't get it is because you have probably not in your life sunk to that
level of desperation.

I am not being sympathetic for terrorist in the least. But you have to dig deeper for the real
answers than just what gets said over and over and over.

Peace,
Dan

[FishaHallic]

310R_Dude ,

1.  I think this forum has proven that we can each speak our mind (Please see the "GOD" thread) and still be civil toward each other, if we all just keep our heads on our shoulders (which will be difficult if the Islamics have their way) everything will be fine.

2.  When I said WE must accept the fact that Isreal is where it is I meant WE being the world and especially the Muslims must accept that fact.

3.  I totally agree with you that oil is the route of all our problems.  If we did not need the ragheads oil we would not be over there medling in there affairs and they could just fight among themselves till the end of time.  Look at Africa, they have absolutely nothing this nation desires so when there is a Genocide going on in Rhowanda (?) we did nothing, now the same thing is happening in the Sudan and we still will do nothing.  So if it was not for oil in the Middle East we would care aless about them killing themselves but we would have to help our allie in Isreal.  I have said it before and I will say it again we need a Manhattan style project to come up with an alternative fuel, this would save us billions and billions of $ and would save alot of American and other Western nations lives.

[Brad500]

There is NO level of despiration that can justify killing innocent people. Innocent people in Isreal are constantly in fear of attack by groups like "Hezbollah", which is a terrorist organization. Hezbollah works in concert with the "government" of Iran. Iran is the head of the terrorist snake. Iraq (Hussain) was just the body of the snake and a training ground for these type of groups. Now things are so screwed up that people are actually using the words "terrorist" and "rights" in the same damn sentence. AMAZING!!!!! I for one cannot advocat the killing of all Muslims. I just don't believe that all Muslims are bad people. But, who wouldn't love an ATV park the size of Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan put together? I know I would.

[trx#9]

Once again, I know I'm going to regret getting involved in this discussion, but what the hell, I'll throw in my 2 cents.
 The problem with the majority of our opinions is the fact that they are based on information supplied to us by a media that does not portray an accurate picture of actual events. Don't kid yourself, all big media has an agenda, and is controlled by  powerful people and/or corporations who also have agendas.
 The average US citizen has no idea what the real story is. We are force fed "the hard hitting truth" from the media, and constantly reminded of terrorism by the government. The government knows that people would never allow them to "take" their rights. However, a basic rule of psychological warfare is to make you afraid of something, and then offer to protect you from your fears, "but" the trade off is that it's going to cost some of your rights.
 If you really start to research terrorism, and 9/11 in particular, it is clear that this was not something just planned by some Islamic extremists. There was much more involved. I'm not going to go into a whole spill, because I don't want to be dismissed as a "conspiracy kook". Look at the video Uncle Rico posted a week or so ago. It's just a breif overview of what I'm talking about. There too many holes in the entire situation for it to even begin to be true. Start researching it further and you will really start to question what's up.
 
  

I like your thinking fastrnick, At least there's a few with intelligent thinking. You too Dano, Thats the main reason for there hate towards us. Isreal!!!!!!!! And our Jewish owned media here in the U.S.A.  What a great country, To bad we don't own it or control it.  

[310R_Dude]

There is NO level of despiration that can justify killing innocent people. Innocent people in Isreal are constantly in fear of attack by groups like "Hezbollah", which is a terrorist organization. Hezbollah works in concert with the "government" of Iran. Iran is the head of the terrorist snake. Iraq (Hussain) was just the body of the snake and a training ground for these type of groups. Now things are so screwed up that people are actually using the words "terrorist" and "rights" in the same damn sentence. AMAZING!!!!! I for one cannot advocat the killing of all Muslims. I just don't believe that all Muslims are bad people. But, who wouldn't love an ATV park the size of Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan put together? I know I would.

So are you saying the atomic bombs we dropped on Japan killed ONLY soldiers?

Obviously this is a rhetorical question

[Brad500]

Yep....pretty sure it was only soldiers.   

[310R_Dude]

Yep....pretty sure it was only soldiers.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

Of particular note:

"...around 214,000 people in both cities, most of the casualties were civilians."

[trx#9]

Yep....pretty sure it was only soldiers.   

They were dress as civilians right and babies too. I seen it on BET Television.

[Brad500]

I'm kinda young so forgive me if i'm wrong...but....I don't think that was a pre-emptive strike. Pretty sure that was a retaliation. Collatteral damage and civilian casualties are something that the Japanese govt. should have considered, Not our govt. If I've got my history right, it was a beautiful sunny morning in 1941 and our boys and girls were attacked.

[UncleRico]

This thread is all over the place!

So, do we agree that killing people is wrong?

I think we are going out on a limb here when we say this.

[Brad500]

Anyone here ever heard of ATVFLORIDA.com? It was this really cool site where we used to talk about 4-wheelers & muddin & poppin wheelies. Man.....it was great!!!!!

[AintSkeered]

That suggestion to kill all Muslims, would that be a so-called Conservative American's opinion? If so, would the suggestion to kill all worshippers of the cross be a Conservative Muslim's opinion?

[FishaHallic]

1.  Yes I watch alot of news and read papers and magazines and if you say these are all Jewish controlled so what, where do you get your news from Aljeezera.  The facts are our Jewish controlled press as you put it (which is odd because some of you say it's a liberal press which if it was Jewish controlled I would think it would be more conservative) has reported a bombing in New York on 9-11-01.  They have also reported bombings in London, Italy and Spain, did all these bombings not happen and our Jewish controlled press just make them up, I think not.  They did happen and they all will happen again unless we wake up and stop blaming the Jews for all our problems.

2.   If you can't see the difference in targeting large cities in a war where over 7 million people were killed than I feel sorry for you.  If you remember we did not start the war with Japan they did a surprise attack on us.  Yes we targeted Hiroshima with a atom bomb, that city was the HQ of one of Japans largest army, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were demonstrations of superior weapons to force the Japanese to surrender.  At the time it was estimated that if we were to invade Japan we would lose over 200,000 if our own soldiers not mention the close to a million people in Japan that would have been killed fighting a useless fight.  Yes it was cruel but necessary to ultimatly save many more lives both Japanese and American.   I don't know I just see how you could possibly compare an Islamic extremist bombing a bus full woman and children to what happened in Japan.

3.  Rico, I wish just like everyone else that the killing could stop but just because you want it to won't make it happen.  The only way to stop it is for the whole world to convert to Islam and I am not prepared to do that are you?   Let us say we do convert to Islam just say the Sunni sect of Islam then the Sheites would be looking to kill you so no matter what someone is gonna try to kill you.  It's a no win situation but that does not mean we should not try, maybe we can set up a booth at the Ocala ride for those of you who wish to convert then maybe all the killing would stop.  Good lucki

[310R_Dude]

2.   If you can't see the difference in targeting large cities in a war where over 7 million people were killed than I feel sorry for you.  If you remember we did not start the war with Japan they did a surprise attack on us.  Yes we targeted Hiroshima with a atom bomb, that city was the HQ of one of Japans largest army, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were demonstrations of superior weapons to force the Japanese to surrender.  At the time it was estimated that if we were to invade Japan we would lose over 200,000 if our own soldiers not mention the close to a million people in Japan that would have been killed fighting a useless fight.  Yes it was cruel but necessary to ultimatly save many more lives both Japanese and American.   I don't know I just see how you could possibly compare an Islamic extremist bombing a bus full woman and children to what happened in Japan.

First off, Brad500 commented that:

 "There is NO level of despiration that can justify killing innocent people."

Which I then pointed out the USA dropping atomic bombs, obviously
knowing there was going to be mass civilian casualties.

Now when you weigh his statement against facts of history, it seems
surely there IS some level of desperation that justifies the killing of
innocent people.

Try to stay on the point and quit redirecting it, please.

[debatethis]

Wow we are really getting off course here. In WWII the atomic bombs were used as opposed to a full scale invasion of Japan and Manchuria resulting in many civilian Japanese deaths instead of many many deaths on both sides if we invaded the actual Island to quell the imperialistic desires of the Japanese empire. Killing civilians is not something that is readily sought, but seeing as how most of those would have fought tooth and nail against our soldiers the only difference in results is less overall killed (that's the theory anyway) and it was them instead of us.
The middle east is a different situation. It is more of a precursor to such an emperialistic aspiration by the Muslims as they would eventually seek to kill everyone except Muslims then they would undoubtedly fight it out amonst each other Shia vs, Sunni vs (I forget the other version)
We aren't just in the region for oil although yes that plays a part as it could cripple our economy - at which time many would say "why did we let this happen" - where as now they say we shouldn't be there over oil.
at any rate we need to be there for stability (stop laughing) if we weren't there to support democrasy Israel would be bombarded from all sides (again) and might resort to Nukes. This would only make things much worse for the world. or if they lost Iran or Iraq or Syria or some other US hating nation would surely sieze the nuclear technology and use it against us.
Why is it so many cry about us being in the middle east but not about us staying in Korea, or Germany for the very same reasons?
People cry about 3,000 soldiers giving their lives to make the world a better place when so many more lost their lives in one day at Normandy. There is a cost to a free world and unfortunately as the only true superpower we must take on most of the burden.
It still leaves the original quandry - why is it we are so bad when we are the ones striving for stability and peace? we are played up in the media and world court for saying violent people are violent? I agree the media usually has an agenda but it's usually along a political line. In this case the pope said saomething and the Muslims attacked non Muslim churches and killed a nun over words that are painfully obviously true.

[UncleRico]

3.  Rico, I wish just like everyone else that the killing could stop but just because you want it to won't make it happen.  The only way to stop it is for the whole world to convert to Islam and I am not prepared to do that are you?   Let us say we do convert to Islam just say the Sunni sect of Islam then the Sheites would be looking to kill you so no matter what someone is gonna try to kill you.  It's a no win situation but that does not mean we should not try, maybe we can set up a booth at the Ocala ride for those of you who wish to convert then maybe all the killing would stop.  Good lucki

You made your own point, converting to Islam won't solve anything. Shia kill Sunni, Sunni kill Shia, They blow up each others mosques.

The only true path to light is for each of us to practice Ahimsa.

I'll see if I can bring a Budhist Monk to the Ocala trail ride to convert you heathens!

[310R_Dude]

It still leaves the original quandry - why is it we are so bad when we are the ones striving for stability and peace? we are played up in the media and world court for saying violent people are violent? I agree the media usually has an agenda but it's usually along a political line. In this case the pope said saomething and the Muslims attacked non Muslim churches and killed a nun over words that are painfully obviously true.

Okay here is the quandry that bewilders you...

cain wrote:
"we are played up in the media and world court for saying violent people are violent?"

And yet WE(USA) are the most agressive(killing) nation for the past 50 years.

Maybe our methods are different but the result is the same.


Oh by the way, did I tell you how much I love riding quads. Last nite I rode for like
30 minutes in an absolute down pour. I only stopped cause mud flew into my eye
after I had to take off both my goggles and my glasses. Man it was too much fun
for a tuesday night I tell ya's... the beer and chicken w'angs afterwards weren't
bad either

Take care,
Dan