ONF changes

[novadave]

Im not happy about there only having 128 miles of trails for atvs. I fell that is not nearly enough for the amount of riders that will be useing the trails, and it being a 2 ways system there is gunna be alot of accidents. While riding in Big Scrub today i was told by ranger Bob that the trail system may have an 8 mile an hour speed limit too and this really upset me. It seems to me that the future of atving in florida is really gunna blow.

[Fox17]

8 mph? you would have to ride with the clutch half engauged! he must be wrong.

[raptor]

First of all 128 miles for the ATV's you should be over whelmed. The jeeps get to use just the multiuse trails, and the motorcycles only got 13 miles of motorcycle only trails.

As far as two way trails -- that is going to be trickry. On some parts of the trails there is only enough room for one ATV, don't try to pass someone. As far as volunteers -- none of the volunteers have authority in the forest, but what they can do is call an LEO or Forest Protection Officer, and they will give you a ticket. You define authority.

As far as being happy with the trail system, I don't think anyone is real happy with it. There are people that feel the forest service could have done a better job at designating the trails ... will you have a say in the trails at big scrub ... who knows ... time will tell.

[Ida_Mann]

I feel that the trail system has good points and it's bad points.

good: an organized trail system makes for a less stressful ride,,,just follow the signs.  If the trails are going to be groomed(I don't have personal confirmation of this yet) then it would also make for a smooth ride throughout the system.

bad: two way trails and on the trails I have been on it would be difficult to carry any kind of good speed into a blind corner where someone else might be coming at 40mph.  thousands of miles of possible trails are reduced to 125 miles,,,,,can't put that on the good side.  grooming, so far the trails that I have ridden have had sections that I had to travel at 1st gear and hated every minute of it,,,,,this is a bad point because I have not seen the trails groomed yet and I think that the forestry service might promise that in the beginning,,,,but fall through in the end.

that's about all I care to comment on at the moment.

Id@

[tony pitts]

bad: two way trails and on the trails I have been on it would be difficult to carry any kind of good speed into a blind corner where someone else might be coming at 40mph.  thousands of miles of possible trails are reduced to 125 miles,,,,,can't put that on the good side.  grooming, so far the trails that I have ridden have had sections that I had to travel at 1st gear and hated every minute of it,,,,,this is a bad point because I have not seen the trails groomed yet and I think that the forestry service might promise that in the beginning,,,,but fall through in the end.

that's about all I care to comment on at the moment.

Id@

I'm not sure that NOT grooming the trails is a bad thing.  My family and I ride sport quads and I look forward to riding a mixture of trail types (whoop sections, smooth sections, tight trails and wide open trails).  If I wanted to ride on nothing but smooth trails, I would get in my truck and ride down the highway.  I understand that there will be a difference of opinion for those that ride on utility quads.  I just hope that they will leave some of the areas alone.

But, I will have to admit, the trails around Big Scrub NEED a lot of grooming.....

[logger]

Some of the trails should be groomed but not flat, there should be whoops left in them. That will keep the speeds down, and less acidents. I also thinks the trails should be marked black diamond for difficult, blue square for intermediate, and yellow circle for beginner, but I guess I would be asking to much.

bad: two way trails and on the trails I have been on it would be difficult to carry any kind of good speed into a blind corner where someone else might be coming at 40mph.  thousands of miles of possible trails are reduced to 125 miles,,,,,can't put that on the good side.  grooming, so far the trails that I have ridden have had sections that I had to travel at 1st gear and hated every minute of it,,,,,this is a bad point because I have not seen the trails groomed yet and I think that the forestry service might promise that in the beginning,,,,but fall through in the end.

that's about all I care to comment on at the moment.

Id@

I'm not sure that NOT grooming the trails is a bad thing.  My family and I ride sport quads and I look forward to riding a mixture of trail types (whoop sections, smooth sections, tight trails and wide open trails).  If I wanted to ride on nothing but smooth trails, I would get in my truck and ride down the highway.  I understand that there will be a difference of opinion for those that ride on utility quads.  I just hope that they will leave some of the areas alone.

But, I will have to admit, the trails around Big Scrub NEED a lot of grooming.....

[novadave]

First of all 128 miles for the ATV's you should be over whelmed. The jeeps get to use just the multiuse trails, and the motorcycles only got 13 miles of motorcycle only trails.

As far as two way trails -- that is going to be trickry. On some parts of the trails there is only enough room for one ATV, don't try to pass someone. As far as volunteers -- none of the volunteers have authority in the forest, but what they can do is call an LEO or Forest Protection Officer, and they will give you a ticket. You define authority.

As far as being happy with the trail system, I don't think anyone is real happy with it. There are people that feel the forest service could have done a better job at designating the trails ... will you have a say in the trails at big scrub ... who knows ... time will tell.

No the motorcycles can use all 141 miles .The 13 miles your thinking of is motorcycles only.There is no atv only trails

[Ida_Mann]

Some of the trails should be groomed but not flat, there should be whoops left in them. That will keep the speeds down, and less acidents. I also thinks the trails should be marked black diamond for difficult, blue square for intermediate, and yellow circle for beginner, but I guess I would be asking to much.

bad: two way trails and on the trails I have been on it would be difficult to carry any kind of good speed into a blind corner where someone else might be coming at 40mph.  thousands of miles of possible trails are reduced to 125 miles,,,,,can't put that on the good side.  grooming, so far the trails that I have ridden have had sections that I had to travel at 1st gear and hated every minute of it,,,,,this is a bad point because I have not seen the trails groomed yet and I think that the forestry service might promise that in the beginning,,,,but fall through in the end.

that's about all I care to comment on at the moment.

Id@

I'm not sure that NOT grooming the trails is a bad thing.  My family and I ride sport quads and I look forward to riding a mixture of trail types (whoop sections, smooth sections, tight trails and wide open trails).  If I wanted to ride on nothing but smooth trails, I would get in my truck and ride down the highway.  I understand that there will be a difference of opinion for those that ride on utility quads.  I just hope that they will leave some of the areas alone.

But, I will have to admit, the trails around Big Scrub NEED a lot of grooming.....

nope, asking "too much" is leaving the forest the way it is and allowing taxpayers to use the taxpayer-cared-for land like we have for three generations,,,,,,but asking for different difficulty trails I think is a good idea,,,possibly the hardest difficulty would be the least groomed with all the whoops left like they are with the least diffuclty trails being the ones you can take the kids with their 50cc quads/bikes on and not have to worry about people blazing across the whoops.

Id@

[qt314nfla]

I add to your idea of difficulty (black diamond areas) the possibility for some pits w/ alot more technical riding.

[Eworm]

It is what I have been saying from day one. I wish I had more backing when I originally talked about the of two-way systems marked by difficulty, 6 months ago.

[Chillinthemost]

What would define difficult? I havent seen any black diamonds in the forest. All the trails look the same to me.

[UncleRico]

What would define difficult? I havent seen any black diamonds in the forest. All the trails look the same to me.

There's a secret spot I know near big scrub that has a 30' step up, but I'm pretty sure you can't ride there anymore.
I'd rate it a single diamond because there's a fallen tree blocking the trail, so you have to clear the tree and if you don't make it to the top, you're gonna go back down that hill right into the tree.

The guys I ride with don't like that "secret spot".  I wouldn't suggest anyone jump it. (Of course, I've been diagnosed as crazy with a slight case of stupid, so it's fun for me.)

Other than that though, I've not seen anything too challenging there.

[qt314nfla]

What would define difficult? I havent seen any black diamonds in the forest. All the trails look the same to me.

Well I don't think there is anything in this state that would be defined as a black diamond trail for you.  Not after seeing some of the video's of you.

[raptor]

First of all 128 miles for the ATV's you should be over whelmed. The jeeps get to use just the multiuse trails, and the motorcycles only got 13 miles of motorcycle only trails.

As far as two way trails -- that is going to be trickry. On some parts of the trails there is only enough room for one ATV, don't try to pass someone. As far as volunteers -- none of the volunteers have authority in the forest, but what they can do is call an LEO or Forest Protection Officer, and they will give you a ticket. You define authority.

As far as being happy with the trail system, I don't think anyone is real happy with it. There are people that feel the forest service could have done a better job at designating the trails ... will you have a say in the trails at big scrub ... who knows ... time will tell.

No the motorcycles can use all 141 miles .The 13 miles your thinking of is motorcycles only.There is no atv only trails

Novadave: I hate to be the one to say this but there are 42 miles of ATV only trails. There is approx. and this number has been disbuted 145 mile of trails. Yes, your right the 13 miles is motorcycle only trails, which is a huge disappointment, for the motorcycles. It looks like the ATV's have the most trails, either atv only trails or multiuse trails.

If you take a look at the mountain bike parks, you can apply that knowledge to the OHV world. What they do is at the beginning of a trail, is a technical riding area or warm up area. There is a trail that leads to a technical riding place, needless to say it is a red diamond. We have tried to tell the forest service regarding this and several other suppose officals at the beginning and still are trying but getting nowhere.

IdaMan: I think your are right, but I also think there should be a kids trail along with a skills area. They are the future.

I hear that Stewards of the Land is starting the process of getting land south of orlando to start an OHV Park. There will also be a park I hear rumors in Lee County.

Joan
Stewards of the Land

[Ida_Mann]

It is what I have been saying from day one. I wish I had more backing when I originally talked about the of two-way systems marked by difficulty, 6 months ago.

I remember.

Id@

[Ida_Mann]

Simple thing about ONF is that there are VERY few technical areas unless it's one of the pits which have been closed off for a while and I doubt that the forestry service will ever reopen the PUBLIC land that makes up the pits.

One of the reasons that the pits are closed is due to lawsuits from idiots getting hurt and suing the forestry service,,,,,,why not suggest a federal law that prevents lawsuits on public lands?

maybe that's a first step to getting those pits reopened.

Id@

[eldiablo64]

I'm just happy we have a place to ride      at least for now!!

[Eworm]

What would define difficult? I havent seen any black diamonds in the forest. All the trails look the same to me.

I see what you are saying but the trails can also be differentiated by rate of speed and whether they are groomed or not groomed.

For example:

GREEN TRAIL: 15 MPH speed limit - Groomed (once a month)

BLUE TRAIL: 30 MPH speed limit- Groomed (once every three months)

BLACK TRAIL: 45 MPH speed limit - Not groomed


Again, by no means am I an expert. I am simply throwing around ideas
 

[logger]

Do I detect a little scarcasim in ones tone..Eworm.. If you are going to be on the ride the 30th we could discuss this, along with the ONF politics... Let me know what machine you will be riding. Would like to continue this discussion.

[UncleRico]

Do I detect a little scarcasim in ones tone..Eworm.. If you are going to be on the ride the 30th we could discuss this, along with the ONF politics... Let me know what machine you will be riding. Would like to continue this discussion.

He rides a Kazumi 50, keep an eye out for him. He's got a bumper sticker on it that says "COWBOY BUTS DRIVE ME NUTZ". You can't miss him.


You would think they'd be able to groom in a few jumps and widen some of the trails, maybe route the trails over some elevation changes, maybe take a cue from Durhamtown and their trail grooming system.

Of course, they may just want to keep it as it as to avoid inexperienced riders from riding above and beyond their ability from getting hurt. It seems to me that they're wanting to excercise strict control over the riding.

I think the new system is geared towards UTE's, and not favorable for sports or dirt bikes.

But that's just my opinion.

[cobra96461]

Im not to happy but at least there is a start. Would like to see 1 way trails, and it would be nice if they led to a pit to fool around in. I would like to see something similar to duram town plantation , maybe 1 trail loop with some small jumps and tabletops. About the people sueing why not charge us 50 bucks a year , and make us sign a waiver, surely that would help pay for some trail grooming or a ranger to keep an eye on things.

[raptor]

You would think they'd be able to groom in a few jumps and widen some of the trails, maybe route the trails over some elevation changes, maybe take a cue from Durhamtown and their trail grooming system.

Of course, they may just want to keep it as it as to avoid inexperienced riders from riding above and beyond their ability from getting hurt. It seems to me that they're wanting to excercise strict control over the riding.

I think the new system is geared towards UTE's, and not favorable for sports or dirt bikes.

But that's just my opinion.

Uncle Rio: I agree with what you are saying, but you have to remember who you are dealing with the USFS. There is also libability issues one has to deal with, I don't think that is a big deal with the USFS. I believe the ONFA/USFS philophy is geared toward the family aspect - nothing that can hurt you. You also have to remember there is a whole lot of politcs playing into this. Maybe we all have a lot to learn from this. I know I sure am, and so is stewards of the land.

Cobra96461 - Tabletops in Florida, Florida is flat - all kiddin aside, it is a start, one way trails are not an option in the USFS scheme of things. Here is something to think about - If I have a one way trail that is 20 miles long, I realize 5 miles out that I forgot to put gas in the bike, I don't have enough for 20 miles, I only have enough for 10 miles what do I do? Remember you are on a one way trail.

The money part is an option that I am sure will be considered. Signing a wavier does not exempt a land manager from being sued. It is a start, but there are tort laws to be considered. Sometimes depending on the circumstances in a court of law that wavier will not stand up. In 2008 with the new law that will go into effect that will change, and it will make it easier to find riding places.

Rumors - Lee County is looking into a places to ride, and stewards of the land is looking at places south of orlando to put in an ohv park.

Raptor
Stewards of the Land

[UncleRico]

I didn't think the USFS was too concerned with safety, as they have no HELMET POLICY, and there's very little supervision of who is riding and how they are riding. I'm sure they don't want to be sued, but that's pretty much stating the obvious.

One way trails are definitely the safest option. The (If you realize you forgot to put gas in) situation isn't something that is so common, that it would detur a ONE WAY TRAIL system in my opinion.


I'm still 50/50 on the trail system. I use to like the freedom of going anywhere in the forest. Now that that freedom is gone, I'll have to wait and see how they do at managing the new trail system once it's fully functional.

I am going to check out STEWARDS OF THE LAND though, sounds like a good orginization.

[raptor]

uncle rio: the stewards of the land website is: http://www.freewebs.com/solora - it will give you who we are information and what stewards stand for.

I agree one way trails are definately safer, but as I said you have to look at the whole picture, again my theory on running out of gas. I feel the trails should be wider in some parts, not just 50 inches.

The USFS is concerned with safety but how will they enforce that, how are they going to enforce the trail system. It is all something to think about when putting together a trail system.

I also like the freedom of going anywhere I want to, but they have to manage the destruction in some way. I know we could get into destruction as cutting down the trees, but lets not go there. It is better than closing the whole forest down.

Raptor
Stewards of the Land

[Ida_Mann]

uncle rio: the stewards of the land website is: http://www.freewebs.com/solora - it will give you who we are information and what stewards stand for.

I agree one way trails are definately safer, but as I said you have to look at the whole picture, again my theory on running out of gas. I feel the trails should be wider in some parts, not just 50 inches.

The USFS is concerned with safety but how will they enforce that, how are they going to enforce the trail system. It is all something to think about when putting together a trail system.

I also like the freedom of going anywhere I want to, but they have to manage the destruction in some way. I know we could get into destruction as cutting down the trees, but lets not go there. It is better than closing the whole forest down.
Raptor
Stewards of the Land

Let's be careful with that point of view,,,,I see that as an apeasment attitude which got the country in to trouble with certain groups,,,,,and I see the same thing happening with ONF.  If we all give in to the attitude that,,,well, I guess the trail system is better than closing the forest,,,then we get used to only having a mere fraction of what we did and then it is easier for the powers to be to close the rest of it down at a future time.

Id@