How do I say this without being too controversial?

[Pastense]

This site is viewed by government officials as an ineffective "b!tch" forum with massive potential that is squandered daily.

Did anyone here know that? 

I got a chance to speak with Jack Terrell (Land Use Chairman: Florida Trail Riders) and had an eye opening conversation.  He confirmed something I believed true but wished were not.  This site is viewed by pertinant personel, both here in the state government and in Washington DC, as a huge waste of potential.  It is agreed by all parties that this is the most comprehesive and heaviliy travled Florida specific ATV site in the world.  However it is also agreed by those same parties that this site is deviod of leadership. 

And thats were the real shame comes into play.  Here you have the single greatest forum for ATV riding in the state of Florida and yet there is no titular head or group that speaks on behalf of it.
Mr. Terrell explained in detail that it would be a great boon, from the enthusiast stand point, if someone from this site would step up. 

I admit, I do read alot of complaining on this site. I myself am certainly not exempt from this. However, I understood fully, when Mr. Terrell explained that local and state leaders have no real concept of who is riding out there.  From their stand point , all our governmat leaders hear about are the ner do wells constantly in  trouble for  illegal riding. They recieve thier information from there own police departments whom attend city council meetings regularly. When was the last time you attended a city council meeting and voiced you concern over losing riding space? Honestly, think, there is no department who function it is to report to city leaders about the benefits of ATV riding on a city by city basis.  Thats our job as citizens and as enthusiasts.
I plan wholly, on attending this conference.  As indianjoe stated in an alternate post this conference has a three progned approach.  In my opinion, the most important of which is to try and change the minds and preconcieved notions about riding and whom is riding, in the minds of the attending politicians and officals.
Though I can not speak on behalf of this site without consent.......If there are no representatives there from this site I will certainly speak of my participation and what an excellent source of information it is.
By the way, this is the first forum of its type being put together.

Florida OHV Recreation Management Workshop
May 1 through 4, 2006
Hilton-Ocala
Ocala, Florida 

[CABLEGUY1]

Pastense for president. LOL. I think it would be great to have a spokesperson especially someone who is whole heartedly into the progression of future riding spots and the keeping of spots already in place. It's a good idea and pastense seems to be articulate and concerned enough to represent this sport. I for one appreciate his interest and enthusiasm in offering to represent us.Thanks pastense.

[Toomey]

I think that it's exactly what this site needs.  We'd need some one in the know politically, and who has the time and know-how to get the point across and everything.

[GrizzlyBear]

I will also definately be at the conference.  The Forestry Service is asking all volunteer Trail Rangers to attend if they can.

 I like Pastense feel this site is a definate waste of potential

[needforspeed]

I told everyone it was viewed by the government. There is a whole lot of talent out there, and it is being wasted. I think if Patense wants to do this in May and is really going to go, the people of the forum should fork over some money for him to do this. I will cost 100.00 to register. What do you say, we help Pastense.

[renmus]

Help Pastense? It would be helping ourselves to back him.

[needforspeed]

Not quite sure what you mean

Help Pastense? Or help ourselves.  Think about it.

[UncleRico]

The Forestry Service?

They run that place like a plantation.



- Hillary Rodham Clinton

[indianjoe]

I agree with what is said. But this is a web site, for information, socialization, such as group rides and talk about riding.

When you start talking abut organization and political activism, it is a different ball game.  As I said on another post the base for this already exist with the Florida Trail Riders. They have been around this state for many years and are respected for what they do. There needs to be to be an organization to represent the recreational riders across this state. I venture to say that the number of recreational riders far out numbers the number of racers, and I don't mean that in any negative way. The point is if a state wide organization would come together to represent recreational riders across this state, the numbers were be large, and think of the funds that could be generated by membership. Funds that can be used for professional lobbyist etc. My point is that the racers and the recreational riders are all looking for one thing. MORE PLACES TO RIDE!!!! Why not unite and increase the numbers and voices!!!!!!!!!! It just makes since if this can be done as the organization already exist and has alot of the componets already in place. But this is a descision they will have to make.

[dreth]

well, if the government is reading this site and they cant see that there is a big need in our sport for more riding areas and the amount of money we spend doing it then they are blind or dont care! id be willing to bet that not one of those OFFICIALS would take a lie detector test if we were asking the questions! they lie  like bear skin rugs to get elected and then forget who you are when its your turn!

im sure someone will not like what i have said here and feel that i am just making it harder for us but im at the point now that I DONT CARE!! THEY have not shown any attempt to help us! they have only closed more spots and made the legal spots SMALLER! IM RIGHT AND WE ALL KNOW IT!

SO TO THE OFFICIALS THAT ARE READING THIS................ITS YOUR TURN TO STEP UP AND MAKE A BOLD STATEMENT!

[Bigscrb15]

well, if the government is reading this site and they cant see that there is a big need in our sport for more riding areas and the amount of money we spend doing it then they are blind or dont care! id be willing to bet that not one of those OFFICIALS would take a lie detector test if we were asking the questions! they lie  like bear skin rugs to get elected and then forget who you are when its your turn!

im sure someone will not like what i have said here and feel that i am just making it harder for us but im at the point now that I DONT CARE!! THEY have not shown any attempt to help us! they have only closed more spots and made the legal spots SMALLER! IM RIGHT AND WE ALL KNOW IT!

SO TO THE OFFICIALS THAT ARE READING THIS................ITS YOUR TURN TO STEP UP AND MAKE A BOLD STATEMENT!

AMEN!!! I agree 100%.

[Scramdaddy]

I think things are only getting worse.  Area's being closed or reduced in size, croom prices doubleing soon I heard.  Local area's lost to home construction. Give us some help govt.. There's money to be had! 

[Sweet Z]

Dreth is right.

[wilburz]

I am sure the state knows how many atvs have been sold in the last 5 or 10 years. So the notion that government officials don't know who is really riding is bulony. What it comes down to is they just don't care about the ATV community. I am with Dreth. The issue is a dead horse.

[AintSkeered]

Yeah, the leadership of this site can take all those donations the receive from the members of this site and lobby for us while we sit back on our arses! I'm with Dreth and the injun on this one. There is a national group looking out for our interests, the ARRA. http://www.arra-access.com/arra/home.html
http://www.atvflorida.com/forum/index.php/board,28.0.html

[Ida_Mann]

I'm going to ask for the time off,,,my new boss seems really cool and I think if I explain to him about it, he might giv e me the time,,,maybe without pay, but at this point I think it's worth it.

and possibly if I am able to go, I could host a couple people at my place in Salt Springs to save them on the cost of a hotel.

Id@

[FishaHallic]

I disagree with several things Pastense and others have said.  I find it hard to believe that goverment officials in this state and Washington are watching this site.  If you think all they have to worry about is what the atvflorida.com users are saying or what atv riders in general are doing that's crazy.  I'm sure atv use in the State of Florida is of little importance to them.

Like someone else said, they could have at their fingertips in 5 minutes how many atvs are purchased in Fl.  They don't care wether atvflorida.com  is huge waste of potential or not.  These people know how many atv riders that are in this state they just don't care.  I feel sure they see atv riders as a bunch of kids out destroying property and not respecting other peoples property rights , we know this is not true, although there are alot of people that do that very thing.  In my opinion that is a very small percentage of atv riders but that small group leaves a big black eye for the rest of us.  Just go look at the where to ride section and see how many places people are asking about if is still legal to ride.  Many of them have been posted no trespassing and people ride there anyway.  And these same people think it's ok because the police are not coming out to kick them out.

Also, I belong to several forums (6) and there is not one of them that has one person in charge like Pastense said.  The other forums are all fishing and boating related and believe me those  industrys are getting slammed with all kinds of issues just like atv riding.  And if you don't believe me go to Pinellas County and try to find a high and dry to park your boat in or even better yet go to a public boat ramp on any nice weekend and try to find a parking spot, you WON'T.  These forums are very helpful with all kinds of info of all aspects of atv riding and could play a role in helping organizing and recruiting new members to already established organizations that are already fighting for our sport.

One other thing.  I'm not pointing the finger at Pastense because I think he has good intentions but I have read several other post recently recently  not from Pastense that I don't agree with.  One was about the rangers in Ocala saying that they heard this site was telling people they could do what ever they wanted in Ocala ( like ride in closed off areas and ride on the sides of  numbered roads).  This all sounds like a bunch of crap to me, I have never read anything like that here.  I think these type post are just a bunch of people trying to stir the pot to get something started.

All this is just my opinion and I'm trying to accuse anyone of anything just the opinion of a 45 yr old newbie to atv riding.   

[CABLEGUY1]

I agree with what is said. But this is a web site, for information, socialization, such as group rides and talk about riding.

When you start talking abut organization and political activism, it is a different ball game.  As I said on another post the base for this already exist with the Florida Trail Riders. They have been around this state for many years and are respected for what they do. There needs to be to be an organization to represent the recreational riders across this state. I venture to say that the number of recreational riders far out numbers the number of racers, and I don't mean that in any negative way. The point is if a state wide organization would come together to represent recreational riders across this state, the numbers were be large, and think of the funds that could be generated by membership. Funds that can be used for professional lobbyist etc. My point is that the racers and the recreational riders are all looking for one thing. MORE PLACES TO RIDE!!!! Why not unite and increase the numbers and voices!!!!!!!!!! It just makes since if this can be done as the organization already exist and has alot of the componets already in place. But this is a descision they will have to make.

  I would agree with you and say unite with that organization if it was responsible for getting more riding spots open but to the best of my knowledge it has not. More spots are being closed down or limited on a monthly basis. We seem to be going backwards not forwards so why ban together with an organization that has shown limited success instead of trying to implement a spokesperson to represent this site? I think the more independant organizations lobbying for the same issue seems to send the message that there are alot more voters other than the Florida Trail Riders association that are keeping a watchfull eye on the politicians actions regarding our interests. I'm not trying to criticize the FTR association or trying to argue with you I'm just stating my opinion. We all have a common goal and I applaud anyone who is willing to stand up and take action on all of our behalf.

[needforspeed]

I agree with everyone that has spoken. It sounds like you all want the same thing, but no one wants to do it. Strength comes in numbers, but organized numbers.

Do you think the Florida Trail Riders, are going to really do anything for you. It is my understanding they are a motorcylcist group, don't you think they are looking after themselves before they will look after you. Motorcyclist and ATVers just don't mix.

I agree with IndianJoe that this has to be a state wide thing. On that note, it is a fact that the ATV group of people is the most poorly organized group, no offense to anyone. In order for this to be a group effort the ATVers should be represented by someone.

Some of the forest service personnel does monitor this site, to see if anything that is said effects them, if it does they can do damage control, and I know for a fact that they do damage control. Some of the as you call them "rangers" which I don't think they are, are trying to get the ATVers out of the forest peroid.

As far as the one website, they are in favor of what the forest service has done in this country. It doesn't sound like they are on my side.

Not getting political the government is not going to help you, you have to help yourself. Enough said about the government, that is another topic in it self.

[ratrider44]

Guys, be careful about down playing FTR, they did start Croom many years ago and they are the only agency fighting for your rights at this point.   Government knows how many motorcycles and ATV's there are in Florida.  That is not the point.  When the State and local Governemnts have these meeting and 200 united locals show up to stop us from riding and 3 ATV riders show up without a game plan, guess who's gonna win.

I was at the Lake City meeting when the State of FLorida was trying to put in a riding area about 2 years ago.  It was a joke, the room was filled with locals who were friends  of the commissioners and representing the ATV riders were Jack Terrel from FTR and the local bike shop.  It took the commission about 10 minutes to make that choice.

It you are not willing to fight for land use for you and your kids, then it is not going to happen.   

[indianjoe]

Florida Trail Riders were instrumental in getting Croom open. They are alao working very hard with the OHV Comm. on developing other riding areas. Look in the ATV Activist thread on this site on the info. from the OHV Comm. how they are working with the mining companies hopefully to open new riding areas.

FTR this year due to the numbers of ATV racers started an entire Quad scrambles series for all types of quads including utility, and sportsman, so they are very aware of the atv riders.

As far as government looking at the inter-net, I will give one example of such. While working in St. Lucie Co. to open an ATV park approx. 2 years ago video of riding in wetlands areas were downloaded from different sites and used to show illegal riding. What we have to remember is that there are alos environmentalist groups that have large amounts of money and people. They also will watch the inter-net and report things to government such as illegal riding etc., and as we know there are places to find examples of poor riding habits.

One of the biggest problems is the misinformation that does get circulated about, as far as I know the OHV Comm. is working to establish one web site in the state between all invovled agencies for OHV riding information.  This will assist all of us.

[Pastense]

It does seem like there are some bitter persons with regards to the government. Please understand that the government is not some mass evil empire bent on world domination so that it may destroy us all in some bleak future where the morlocks have to gobble a few of us up every once in a while.  The real truth is that our government is truly made up of a system of peoples desicions.  The terrible truth is that the great evil in the world is.......apathy.  No one cares.......but everyone complains.... And to what end does this effect anything?  The answer is none. To simply complain of something you show no interest in changing is futile. And every intelligent person that reads this post knows that's true. 
 I would like to thank IDA Mann.   His attendance at the meeting , I believe will hold great wieght, in identifying to different persons of authority exactly whom the average ATV enthusiast is and what he or she is like. 
   

[Eworm]

I think we should start with a meeting: Perhaps in Ocala (central). First we vote on here who can lead this pack and then meet and discuss our plan. Who would be willing to lead us during this fight? I know I can only do so much. I have a demanding job and family but this is important to me and I am willing to sacrafice as needed for the right cause. So who would be willing???


Toomey
Ida
Pastense
Me
Dreth
Indian
Cableguy
?
?
?

[needforspeed]

Start a meeting with whom present, anyone that wants to attend, or only a select few??

I can help but  lately I seem to be part of the morlocks..

Pastense you are on the dark side
 

I think we should start with a meeting: Perhaps in Ocala (central). First we vote on here who can lead this pack and then meet and discuss our plan. Who would be willing to lead us during this fight? I know I can only do so much. I have a demanding job and family but this is important to me and I am willing to sacrafice as needed for the right cause. So who would be willing???


Toomey
Ida
Pastense
Me
Dreth
Indian
Cableguy
?
?
?

[Pastense]

Pastense you are on the dark side

dark side!
dark side, did you say?
I think not!
The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is!