3,000 U.S. service men and women dead in Iraq and counting...

[CABLEGUY1]

Go sell that crazy talk to someone else? Boy you really got me on that one trx.What a comeback. EINSTEIN!

[SomBch]

its EINSTEIN! LOL

[CABLEGUY1]

its EINSTEIN! LOL

Hey give me a break I've been up since 5:00 am. I have to admit that was funny. Ironic but funny.

[trx#9]

Go sell that crazy talk to someone else? Boy you really got me on that one trx.What a comeback. EINSTEIN!

  Good night guys!!!

[Able]

Radical muslims believe that ISLAM (the arab territories) is sacred land . And thats what they are fighting for . They dont want to invade our country, hell they dont even have the ability to get here to do it.They want there land back(sounds like the american indian, huh?) I dont want to insult anyones intelligence but from what I read so far on this thread , there are some very uninformed people that are making very uninformed posts.

Yes it is a small portion that are the extremist/terrorists. Islam itself is not a violent religion. That said how many does it take to be effective as a terrorist group, not many. They fight for what they believe which is Islam. They however do believe that it is sopposed to be (by God) the ONLY regligion and that all others are "infidels". That is the same reason that many years ago sailors would rather die at sea than be stranded i Muslim land. The Muslims believed that white sailors that drifted up on their shores were "gifts from God" and immediately enslaved as property of Muslims. Is that OK just becasue it's what they believe ? NO. it also isn't ok to deny Isreal the right to exist just because the Muslims don't believe they should be there. and NO they don't want to "invade" our country, they would like to wipe it off the map! Forget CNN, have you seen the speaches from the head of Iran ? Did you know Sadam said he was months from having a nuke and would immediately blow Isreal off the map? do you really think the heads of our country just felt like going to war? it was to keep us safe and Isreal safe, which also avoided an all out nuclear war. If Isreal is attacked they can nuke the whole region. then what? All the others with nukes start looking around to see who's next. So next time you post, especially calling others "uninformed" how about researching the facts. Non-partisan, not just rhetoric, facts. you obviously have good intentions, but have little information about the real world, how the balance of terror works, or the ins and outs of political science.
I have continually posted facts and basic principals of political science. others have just made inflammatory posts and suggested things based upon the beliefs of their party. How about some of you Bush bashers post some intelligent positions instead of "it's Bush's fault" ? tell me how you're right,. not just because you wnat to be right and you hate Bush, but based upon sound deductions, political science, and facts. then I'll dignify any further posts with a response. I know there are many intelligent people here with views that often conflict with mine, that's great. I encourage all to become informed and develop their own opinions. I'm not saying mine is the only way, but to the few I've gone back and forth with in this thread, you are jsut posting out of emotion, not facts and sound political science backgrounds. ignorance is bliss, and alot of you are VERY HAPPY people

I love to debate, but when it's with people that can't even tell you why they believe the way they think, or put any facts with their argument, it's just me talking to a wall.

[SomBch]

Radical muslims believe that ISLAM (the arab territories) is sacred land . And thats what they are fighting for . They dont want to invade our country, hell they dont even have the ability to get here to do it.They want there land back(sounds like the american indian, huh?) I dont want to insult anyones intelligence but from what I read so far on this thread , there are some very uninformed people that are making very uninformed posts.

Yes it is a small portion that are the extremist/terrorists. Islam itself is not a violent religion. That said how many does it take to be effective as a terrorist group, not many. They fight for what they believe which is Islam. They however do believe that it is sopposed to be (by God) the ONLY regligion and that all others are "infidels". That is the same reason that many years ago sailors would rather die at sea than be stranded i Muslim land. The Muslims believed that white sailors that drifted up on their shores were "gifts from God" and immediately enslaved as property of Muslims. Is that OK just becasue it's what they believe ? NO. it also isn't ok to deny Isreal the right to exist just because the Muslims don't believe they should be there. and NO they don't want to "invade" our country, they would like to wipe it off the map! Forget CNN, have you seen the speaches from the head of Iran ? Did you know Sadam said he was months from having a nuke and would immediately blow Isreal off the map? do you really think the heads of our country just felt like going to war? it was to keep us safe and Isreal safe, which also avoided an all out nuclear war. If Isreal is attacked they can nuke the whole region. then what? All the others with nukes start looking around to see who's next. So next time you post, especially calling others "uninformed" how about researching the facts. Non-partisan, not just rhetoric, facts. you obviously have good intentions, but have little information about the real world, how the balance of terror works, or the ins and outs of political science.
I have continually posted facts and basic principals of political science. others have just made inflammatory posts and suggested things based upon the beliefs of their party. How about some of you Bush bashers post some intelligent positions instead of "it's Bush's fault" ? tell me how you're right,. not just because you wnat to be right and you hate Bush, but based upon sound deductions, political science, and facts. then I'll dignify any further posts with a response. I know there are many intelligent people here with views that often conflict with mine, that's great. I encourage all to become informed and develop their own opinions. I'm not saying mine is the only way, but to the few I've gone back and forth with in this thread, you are jsut posting out of emotion, not facts and sound political science backgrounds. ignorance is bliss, and alot of you are VERY HAPPY people

I love to debate, but when it's with people that can't even tell you why they believe the way they think, or put any facts with their argument, it's just me talking to a wall.

WOW ............................that was the most ignorant rant of non facts i have ever read.You applied basic political science ideals? And I never blaimed Bush for any of the military moves , he knows better than to get involved where he knows nothing.I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted , most has come from the Iraq report.   ;DI hope your still in school cause you need a tutor.  no offense but you are very misinformed . And ill leave it at that , cause i can see im not talking to my intellectual equal. goodnight!

[Able]

Radical muslims believe that ISLAM (the arab territories) is sacred land . And thats what they are fighting for . They dont want to invade our country, hell they dont even have the ability to get here to do it.They want there land back(sounds like the american indian, huh?) I dont want to insult anyones intelligence but from what I read so far on this thread , there are some very uninformed people that are making very uninformed posts.

Yes it is a small portion that are the extremist/terrorists. Islam itself is not a violent religion. That said how many does it take to be effective as a terrorist group, not many. They fight for what they believe which is Islam. They however do believe that it is sopposed to be (by God) the ONLY regligion and that all others are "infidels". That is the same reason that many years ago sailors would rather die at sea than be stranded i Muslim land. The Muslims believed that white sailors that drifted up on their shores were "gifts from God" and immediately enslaved as property of Muslims. Is that OK just becasue it's what they believe ? NO. it also isn't ok to deny Isreal the right to exist just because the Muslims don't believe they should be there. and NO they don't want to "invade" our country, they would like to wipe it off the map! Forget CNN, have you seen the speaches from the head of Iran ? Did you know Sadam said he was months from having a nuke and would immediately blow Isreal off the map? do you really think the heads of our country just felt like going to war? it was to keep us safe and Isreal safe, which also avoided an all out nuclear war. If Isreal is attacked they can nuke the whole region. then what? All the others with nukes start looking around to see who's next. So next time you post, especially calling others "uninformed" how about researching the facts. Non-partisan, not just rhetoric, facts. you obviously have good intentions, but have little information about the real world, how the balance of terror works, or the ins and outs of political science.
I have continually posted facts and basic principals of political science. others have just made inflammatory posts and suggested things based upon the beliefs of their party. How about some of you Bush bashers post some intelligent positions instead of "it's Bush's fault" ? tell me how you're right,. not just because you wnat to be right and you hate Bush, but based upon sound deductions, political science, and facts. then I'll dignify any further posts with a response. I know there are many intelligent people here with views that often conflict with mine, that's great. I encourage all to become informed and develop their own opinions. I'm not saying mine is the only way, but to the few I've gone back and forth with in this thread, you are jsut posting out of emotion, not facts and sound political science backgrounds. ignorance is bliss, and alot of you are VERY HAPPY people

I love to debate, but when it's with people that can't even tell you why they believe the way they think, or put any facts with their argument, it's just me talking to a wall.

WOW ............................that was the most ignorant rant of non facts i have ever read.You applied basic political science ideals? And I never blaimed Bush for any of the military moves , he knows better than to get involved where he knows nothing.I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted , most has come from the Iraq report.   ;DI hope your still in school cause you need a tutor.  no offense but you are very misinformed . And ill leave it at that , cause i can see im not talking to my intellectual equal. goodnight!

I'm long out of school and you're right I'm not your intellectual equal, I'm your intellectual superior.

[Able]

smbch quotes - "I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted"

"This whole s---t storm in Iraq could have been avoided had we bombed the crap out of Iran( the country that actually has nukes and supports terrorist groups)and made that place a parking lot. After that ,all the terrorist nations would listen to what we are cookin!!! Or face ultimate extermination. And that makes sense whether you are a dem or a rep!! "

while it would have probably avoided an Iraq war, that's ignorant. Like you said they have nukes, that's the deterant right there. We  bomb them, their crazy leader unleashes nukes then the entire world is at risk. That's not a viable solution. We can't just bomb them as they are a more apt military force that may have nukes. Do you think they would let us bomb them then walk in and take over without employing all means of self preservation including nukes ?

"this is a great discussion on how to further divide and weaken America ,by looking at this situation through partisan eyes. This accomplishes nothing . "

While I agree bi-partisanism accomplishes nothing, it is indeed a partisan issue for many (excluding myself). However, this discussion does nothing to "further divide and weaken America" it draws into light the miscalculations of the Bush administration, and the unwillingness of teh Dem party to do anything at all.

"We should all realize that whether we like it or not this action in Iraq was a mistake. A mistake because we didnt go for the real problem. Yes, saddam was a tyrant and he did alot of bad things but he wasnt half the threat that Iran is ! And that my conservative and liberal friends is the inconvienent truth"

I don't look down a partisan nose at all and your accusation only proves my point of you as well as others speaking out of emotion instead of fact.
I agree Iran is indeed a problem, but how many can we handle at once? If we went into Iran tomorrow Bush would be (again) called a war monger and people would say Iran was no threat. Sadam was a tyrant and needed to be removed for his murderous ways. In addition, like you suggested before by taking out Iran to quell Iraq, it was supposed to work in revers and quell Iran by attacking Iraq. The key there is that Iraq was unable to deploy nuclear weapons in defense. And who's to say Iran didn't get their nuclear capabilities from  Iraq just as in the first gulf war he sent many of his Mig jets to Iran to keep them from US attacks ?


"what you said before was clearly rep talking points , whether you know it or not . so,  essentially thats a contradiction. But, the beauty of America is different ideas coming together to help ALL not some .I myself like to take the middle cause both parties are crooks and liars. One is not better than the other. They prove that constantly."

Again you make unsubstantiated claims of me being swayed by party affiliation only proving your uninformed responses. I am not partisan although I may or may not agree with more attributes of one party or another.
I agree both are  crooks and unfortunately we are stuck with it for now. The important thing is doing what's right to protect the US. That included taking out Sadam. Both to prevent him from aiding terrorists and to (in theory) disuade otehrs from similar actions.

"And anyone who thinks Iraq is a bigger threat to us than Iran is uninformed and clearly not aware of their military capabilities as well as their sponsorship of terrorist organizations such as Hammas,Al Queda and Hezbollah that operate through out the middle east and other muslim extremist groups operating in  south asia . Which before the war they did not operate in Iraq. Mostly because Saddam was very secular(he is not a die hard muslim) and felt that any terror groups operating in his country was a direct threat to him and his regime   "

again you post as if you and you alone know all and can tell where the threat is. I am well aware of Iran's sponsorship of terrorists, as well as Sadam's secular nature. But do you really think killing ther extremists in Iraq is bad even if tehy come from other places to get killed there?  Much of the other stuff you present as facts is simply conspiracy theory. try dealing in facts, not what you think might be the cause.

"      yeah cause there is freedom in every drop of oil!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Just another inflammatory remark that appears to suggest that we went in for reasons of oil/monetary gain. Again speculation and consipracy theory. Do you really think Bush or any of the oil rich politicians need to start a war to make money? that's just ridiculous.

"Iran's army isn't even close to the technology we have. The US has the most advanced fighting force in the world. The problem is the complete comprehension of who has what and what they would do with it . Iraq had no military. How do we know that? 1.Saddam couldn't get anything in or out without his neighboring countries or us knowing about it. 2.his army was nearly destroyed in Desert storm. 3. His army had been fighting with Iran for many years and was under staffed and burnt out or just plain dead!!

I think if every one really took the time to read the history of the region and analyzed accounts by retired military involved in both the 1991 conflict and our current situation you would have a better understanding of this"

Iran is no where near our capabilities, but even one nuke will start a nuclear war.
Iraw had no military is right, that's why we took them out instead of Iran which could have ended us up in a nuclear war.
You say to listen to those that were involved in the actions in the region? I get some of my info from some ex-UN weapons inspectors. And instead of just listening to retired military which may have a political agenda of their own, how about looking at facts with a clear head ?

"Radical muslims believe that ISLAM (the arab territories) is sacred land . And thats what they are fighting for . They dont want to invade our country, hell they dont even have the ability to get here to do it.They want there land back(sounds like the american indian, huh?) I dont want to insult anyones intelligence but from what I read so far on this thread , there are some very uninformed people that are making very uninformed posts. "

a small portion of Muslims are teh terrorist/extremists true, but almost all refuse to accept the right of Isreal to even exist! do they want to invade us ? No they want us all dead and many of the Muslim leaders have SAID IT themselves!
and again you speak out of emotion and pesonally attack others instead of sticking to facts.

" dont think there is one single American that didnt feel like we needed to put a beat down on some body for 9/11. We started out good with going to afganistan, but we took our eyes off the ball going to Iraq. We should have gone to Iran and hind sight being 20/20 that is indisputible! "

I'm amazed that you are so intelligent that you can easily solve all problems and you and only you seem to know exactly what the US should do. YOu can't prove or provide much arguement for Iran being more dangerous than Iraq. Even if you could how stupid it would have been to attack the Nuclear power instead of the one that has already lost much of its military force.

"WOW ............................that was the most ignorant rant of non facts i have ever read.You applied basic political science ideals? And I never blaimed Bush for any of the military moves , he knows better than to get involved where he knows nothing.I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted , most has come from the Iraq report.   ;DI hope your still in school cause you need a tutor.  no offense but you are very misinformed . And ill leave it at that , cause i can see im not talking to my intellectual equal. goodnight"

Again more personal attacks instead of intelligent discussion. You balk at the application of political science to a political situation ? Who has the problem there? I speak of facts and known applications of political science, you simply attack others out of emotion. I've long ago graduated, but I still keep informed. Where is your degree? where do you get your information? I'm just curious since you see to know all, but fail to support it with fact or application of proven mothodology.
You issued a challenge to dispute what you posted. I have done it not through emotion as you post, but through knowledge and backed up by facts. Now, if you are so inclined, respond with something intelligent yourself instead of another personal attack.




                                                                                 

[MadMudder]

If anyone is still in school its me. And for 14 I think I know what im talking about. I dont read all the reports and I dont know all the ins and outs of the Islamic religion, but you two above arent even debating. Your just attacking each others facts. I dont see anybody comming back with actual facts. It sounds more like 5th grade name calling! Im not exaticly the most "informed" person but we all know that everything is biased. No matter what you read or listen to its all biased. Rush Limbaugh is biased. The Iraq report probably has pages that werent shown to the public. Its biased. We all know that the media is biased. Even fox. Do you see what im getting at? An intellengent debate uses well put together informed arguments with facts to back them up. TRX#9 means not you... Cable guy posts this great post about america and bush and you dissmiss it like its nothing. So if were going to continue to talk about this then lets stick to the facts and attack the other persons arguments. Not there facts and call them names. If you guys cant do that then lets just let this post die.

[Able]

unfortunately i political/war issues the only time facts are available as to what someone will do is after the fact. For instance the use of nukes if Iran was attacked. So it is based upon sound theory produced by studying years and years of what has already taken place in previous similar situation. For instance anyone with ANY political science info knows what the balance of terror is, or why osolationism no longer works. So in effect I  have posted things based upon fact. Not like the "I think __________ is the real mastermind behind 9/11" comments of others. When heads of state make decisions they base it upon the information gathered from previous situations provided by those that study it eg. political scientists. And no it's not a name calling match, I have backed up my posts with the same theory that is used by politicians to form their own decisions and actions. I'm not calling anyone names, hope I didn't before, but I leave my facts and theory in tact. If someone can offer conflicting facts or theory based other than than their own emotions and conspiracy theories, please do so.

[MadMudder]

To tell you the truth I was talking to other people in this thread more then you in particular.

[bigscrub79]

I think yall should read this. I actually think we needed to go into Iraq and do what we did but we also need to be prepping up for Iran. Those yahoos may cause us some real trouble.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Nzc1YTNjZDlmZjU3MzBjMTNhMjFhNDNmYjNmNjU0NTI=

[Able]

To tell you the truth I was talking to other people in this thread more then you in particular.

Oh, sorry bout that 

[MadMudder]

Jez , I didnt know it was that serious! Now as I stated I am only 14 and I am easily influenced by what I read. But this sounds very serious. I know the UN is putting ecnomic sanctions on Iran but they need to do something if this stuff is going to happen. I am very skeptical so dont think im paniking or anything but wow....

[SomBch]

smbch quotes - "I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted"

"This whole s---t storm in Iraq could have been avoided had we bombed the crap out of Iran( the country that actually has nukes and supports terrorist groups)and made that place a parking lot. After that ,all the terrorist nations would listen to what we are cookin!!! Or face ultimate extermination. And that makes sense whether you are a dem or a rep!! "

while it would have probably avoided an Iraq war, that's ignorant. Like you said they have nukes, that's the deterant right there. We  bomb them, their crazy leader unleashes nukes then the entire world is at risk. That's not a viable solution. We can't just bomb them as they are a more apt military force that may have nukes. Do you think they would let us bomb them then walk in and take over without employing all means of self preservation including nukes ?

"this is a great discussion on how to further divide and weaken America ,by looking at this situation through partisan eyes. This accomplishes nothing . "

While I agree bi-partisanism accomplishes nothing, it is indeed a partisan issue for many (excluding myself). However, this discussion does nothing to "further divide and weaken America" it draws into light the miscalculations of the Bush administration, and the unwillingness of teh Dem party to do anything at all.

"We should all realize that whether we like it or not this action in Iraq was a mistake. A mistake because we didnt go for the real problem. Yes, saddam was a tyrant and he did alot of bad things but he wasnt half the threat that Iran is ! And that my conservative and liberal friends is the inconvienent truth"

I don't look down a partisan nose at all and your accusation only proves my point of you as well as others speaking out of emotion instead of fact.
I agree Iran is indeed a problem, but how many can we handle at once? If we went into Iran tomorrow Bush would be (again) called a war monger and people would say Iran was no threat. Sadam was a tyrant and needed to be removed for his murderous ways. In addition, like you suggested before by taking out Iran to quell Iraq, it was supposed to work in revers and quell Iran by attacking Iraq. The key there is that Iraq was unable to deploy nuclear weapons in defense. And who's to say Iran didn't get their nuclear capabilities from  Iraq just as in the first gulf war he sent many of his Mig jets to Iran to keep them from US attacks ?


"what you said before was clearly rep talking points , whether you know it or not . so,  essentially thats a contradiction. But, the beauty of America is different ideas coming together to help ALL not some .I myself like to take the middle cause both parties are crooks and liars. One is not better than the other. They prove that constantly."

Again you make unsubstantiated claims of me being swayed by party affiliation only proving your uninformed responses. I am not partisan although I may or may not agree with more attributes of one party or another.
I agree both are  crooks and unfortunately we are stuck with it for now. The important thing is doing what's right to protect the US. That included taking out Sadam. Both to prevent him from aiding terrorists and to (in theory) disuade otehrs from similar actions.

"And anyone who thinks Iraq is a bigger threat to us than Iran is uninformed and clearly not aware of their military capabilities as well as their sponsorship of terrorist organizations such as Hammas,Al Queda and Hezbollah that operate through out the middle east and other muslim extremist groups operating in  south asia . Which before the war they did not operate in Iraq. Mostly because Saddam was very secular(he is not a die hard muslim) and felt that any terror groups operating in his country was a direct threat to him and his regime   "

again you post as if you and you alone know all and can tell where the threat is. I am well aware of Iran's sponsorship of terrorists, as well as Sadam's secular nature. But do you really think killing ther extremists in Iraq is bad even if tehy come from other places to get killed there?  Much of the other stuff you present as facts is simply conspiracy theory. try dealing in facts, not what you think might be the cause.

"      yeah cause there is freedom in every drop of oil!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Just another inflammatory remark that appears to suggest that we went in for reasons of oil/monetary gain. Again speculation and consipracy theory. Do you really think Bush or any of the oil rich politicians need to start a war to make money? that's just ridiculous.

"Iran's army isn't even close to the technology we have. The US has the most advanced fighting force in the world. The problem is the complete comprehension of who has what and what they would do with it . Iraq had no military. How do we know that? 1.Saddam couldn't get anything in or out without his neighboring countries or us knowing about it. 2.his army was nearly destroyed in Desert storm. 3. His army had been fighting with Iran for many years and was under staffed and burnt out or just plain dead!!

I think if every one really took the time to read the history of the region and analyzed accounts by retired military involved in both the 1991 conflict and our current situation you would have a better understanding of this"

Iran is no where near our capabilities, but even one nuke will start a nuclear war.
Iraw had no military is right, that's why we took them out instead of Iran which could have ended us up in a nuclear war.
You say to listen to those that were involved in the actions in the region? I get some of my info from some ex-UN weapons inspectors. And instead of just listening to retired military which may have a political agenda of their own, how about looking at facts with a clear head ?

"Radical muslims believe that ISLAM (the arab territories) is sacred land . And thats what they are fighting for . They dont want to invade our country, hell they dont even have the ability to get here to do it.They want there land back(sounds like the american indian, huh?) I dont want to insult anyones intelligence but from what I read so far on this thread , there are some very uninformed people that are making very uninformed posts. "

a small portion of Muslims are teh terrorist/extremists true, but almost all refuse to accept the right of Isreal to even exist! do they want to invade us ? No they want us all dead and many of the Muslim leaders have SAID IT themselves!
and again you speak out of emotion and pesonally attack others instead of sticking to facts.

" dont think there is one single American that didnt feel like we needed to put a beat down on some body for 9/11. We started out good with going to afganistan, but we took our eyes off the ball going to Iraq. We should have gone to Iran and hind sight being 20/20 that is indisputible! "

I'm amazed that you are so intelligent that you can easily solve all problems and you and only you seem to know exactly what the US should do. YOu can't prove or provide much arguement for Iran being more dangerous than Iraq. Even if you could how stupid it would have been to attack the Nuclear power instead of the one that has already lost much of its military force.

"WOW ............................that was the most ignorant rant of non facts i have ever read.You applied basic political science ideals? And I never blaimed Bush for any of the military moves , he knows better than to get involved where he knows nothing.I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted , most has come from the Iraq report.   ;DI hope your still in school cause you need a tutor.  no offense but you are very misinformed . And ill leave it at that , cause i can see im not talking to my intellectual equal. goodnight"

Again more personal attacks instead of intelligent discussion. You balk at the application of political science to a political situation ? Who has the problem there? I speak of facts and known applications of political science, you simply attack others out of emotion. I've long ago graduated, but I still keep informed. Where is your degree? where do you get your information? I'm just curious since you see to know all, but fail to support it with fact or application of proven mothodology.
You issued a challenge to dispute what you posted. I have done it not through emotion as you post, but through knowledge and backed up by facts. Now, if you are so inclined, respond with something intelligent yourself instead of another personal attack.




                                                                                 

hmm, that degree of yours didn't help, Iran only started developing Nuclear weapons about a year and a half ago. I probably was getting my degree  when you where still listening to the backstreet boys, if I where you i wouldn't be so presumptuous.To think you are the authority on this subject is ridiculous. We know only what retired CIA, military, and civilian people involved in the lead up decide to share. If your saying your application of political science changes fact, well.....thats a new one.

[Able]

quote from smbch- "Iraq only started developing Nuclear weapons about a year and a half ago."

So according to your vast knowledge and CIA sources Iraq started developing nuclear weapons After we invaded? I bet that's news to everyone in the US government as well as those in Iraq. And again you are wrong, Iraq was seeking nuclear capabilities before the first guld war. That's part of why we went in, not just to save kuwait. In fact Sadam himself announced that he was only months away from a nuclear device and that he would immediately deploy it to attack Isreal. That's part of why we went in the first time. If we allowed him to attack, Isreal would have opened up with their nukes and a nuclear war would have ensued. My application of knowledge doesn't change facts, which you have failed to present, it simply shows why certain actions were taken. Again you attack me personally and offer sepculation and misinformation, are you ever going to address the discussion with facts or an argument based upon sound logic ? I have logic , facts, and reasoning based upon the scientific study of world politics on my side and I've backed up everything I've said. Your turn to use something other than emotion and a wish that you had a clue.

[svtbolt04]

Dont know if anyone said it.. But only reason we are losing is because WE DONT KNOW WHO WE ARE FIGHTING!!! They arent marked in military uniforms, so finding the target isnt easy untill they are up in your face.

If they were marked.. We outpower them, hands down.

[CABLEGUY1]

smbch quotes - "I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted"

"This whole s---t storm in Iraq could have been avoided had we bombed the crap out of Iran( the country that actually has nukes and supports terrorist groups)and made that place a parking lot. After that ,all the terrorist nations would listen to what we are cookin!!! Or face ultimate extermination. And that makes sense whether you are a dem or a rep!! "

while it would have probably avoided an Iraq war, that's ignorant. Like you said they have nukes, that's the deterant right there. We  bomb them, their crazy leader unleashes nukes then the entire world is at risk. That's not a viable solution. We can't just bomb them as they are a more apt military force that may have nukes. Do you think they would let us bomb them then walk in and take over without employing all means of self preservation including nukes ?

"this is a great discussion on how to further divide and weaken America ,by looking at this situation through partisan eyes. This accomplishes nothing . "

While I agree bi-partisanism accomplishes nothing, it is indeed a partisan issue for many (excluding myself). However, this discussion does nothing to "further divide and weaken America" it draws into light the miscalculations of the Bush administration, and the unwillingness of teh Dem party to do anything at all.

"We should all realize that whether we like it or not this action in Iraq was a mistake. A mistake because we didnt go for the real problem. Yes, saddam was a tyrant and he did alot of bad things but he wasnt half the threat that Iran is ! And that my conservative and liberal friends is the inconvienent truth"

I don't look down a partisan nose at all and your accusation only proves my point of you as well as others speaking out of emotion instead of fact.
I agree Iran is indeed a problem, but how many can we handle at once? If we went into Iran tomorrow Bush would be (again) called a war monger and people would say Iran was no threat. Sadam was a tyrant and needed to be removed for his murderous ways. In addition, like you suggested before by taking out Iran to quell Iraq, it was supposed to work in revers and quell Iran by attacking Iraq. The key there is that Iraq was unable to deploy nuclear weapons in defense. And who's to say Iran didn't get their nuclear capabilities from  Iraq just as in the first gulf war he sent many of his Mig jets to Iran to keep them from US attacks ?


"what you said before was clearly rep talking points , whether you know it or not . so,  essentially thats a contradiction. But, the beauty of America is different ideas coming together to help ALL not some .I myself like to take the middle cause both parties are crooks and liars. One is not better than the other. They prove that constantly."

Again you make unsubstantiated claims of me being swayed by party affiliation only proving your uninformed responses. I am not partisan although I may or may not agree with more attributes of one party or another.
I agree both are  crooks and unfortunately we are stuck with it for now. The important thing is doing what's right to protect the US. That included taking out Sadam. Both to prevent him from aiding terrorists and to (in theory) disuade otehrs from similar actions.

"And anyone who thinks Iraq is a bigger threat to us than Iran is uninformed and clearly not aware of their military capabilities as well as their sponsorship of terrorist organizations such as Hammas,Al Queda and Hezbollah that operate through out the middle east and other muslim extremist groups operating in  south asia . Which before the war they did not operate in Iraq. Mostly because Saddam was very secular(he is not a die hard muslim) and felt that any terror groups operating in his country was a direct threat to him and his regime   "

again you post as if you and you alone know all and can tell where the threat is. I am well aware of Iran's sponsorship of terrorists, as well as Sadam's secular nature. But do you really think killing ther extremists in Iraq is bad even if tehy come from other places to get killed there?  Much of the other stuff you present as facts is simply conspiracy theory. try dealing in facts, not what you think might be the cause.

"      yeah cause there is freedom in every drop of oil!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Just another inflammatory remark that appears to suggest that we went in for reasons of oil/monetary gain. Again speculation and consipracy theory. Do you really think Bush or any of the oil rich politicians need to start a war to make money? that's just ridiculous.

"Iran's army isn't even close to the technology we have. The US has the most advanced fighting force in the world. The problem is the complete comprehension of who has what and what they would do with it . Iraq had no military. How do we know that? 1.Saddam couldn't get anything in or out without his neighboring countries or us knowing about it. 2.his army was nearly destroyed in Desert storm. 3. His army had been fighting with Iran for many years and was under staffed and burnt out or just plain dead!!

I think if every one really took the time to read the history of the region and analyzed accounts by retired military involved in both the 1991 conflict and our current situation you would have a better understanding of this"

Iran is no where near our capabilities, but even one nuke will start a nuclear war.
Iraw had no military is right, that's why we took them out instead of Iran which could have ended us up in a nuclear war.
You say to listen to those that were involved in the actions in the region? I get some of my info from some ex-UN weapons inspectors. And instead of just listening to retired military which may have a political agenda of their own, how about looking at facts with a clear head ?

"Radical muslims believe that ISLAM (the arab territories) is sacred land . And thats what they are fighting for . They dont want to invade our country, hell they dont even have the ability to get here to do it.They want there land back(sounds like the american indian, huh?) I dont want to insult anyones intelligence but from what I read so far on this thread , there are some very uninformed people that are making very uninformed posts. "

a small portion of Muslims are teh terrorist/extremists true, but almost all refuse to accept the right of Isreal to even exist! do they want to invade us ? No they want us all dead and many of the Muslim leaders have SAID IT themselves!
and again you speak out of emotion and pesonally attack others instead of sticking to facts.

" dont think there is one single American that didnt feel like we needed to put a beat down on some body for 9/11. We started out good with going to afganistan, but we took our eyes off the ball going to Iraq. We should have gone to Iran and hind sight being 20/20 that is indisputible! "

I'm amazed that you are so intelligent that you can easily solve all problems and you and only you seem to know exactly what the US should do. YOu can't prove or provide much arguement for Iran being more dangerous than Iraq. Even if you could how stupid it would have been to attack the Nuclear power instead of the one that has already lost much of its military force.

"WOW ............................that was the most ignorant rant of non facts i have ever read.You applied basic political science ideals? And I never blaimed Bush for any of the military moves , he knows better than to get involved where he knows nothing.I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted , most has come from the Iraq report.   ;DI hope your still in school cause you need a tutor.  no offense but you are very misinformed . And ill leave it at that , cause i can see im not talking to my intellectual equal. goodnight"

Again more personal attacks instead of intelligent discussion. You balk at the application of political science to a political situation ? Who has the problem there? I speak of facts and known applications of political science, you simply attack others out of emotion. I've long ago graduated, but I still keep informed. Where is your degree? where do you get your information? I'm just curious since you see to know all, but fail to support it with fact or application of proven mothodology.
You issued a challenge to dispute what you posted. I have done it not through emotion as you post, but through knowledge and backed up by facts. Now, if you are so inclined, respond with something intelligent yourself instead of another personal attack.




                                                                                 

hmm, that degree of yours didn't help, Iraq only started developing Nuclear weapons about a year and a half ago. I probably was getting my degree  when you where still listening to the backstreet boys, if I where you i wouldn't be so presumptuous.To think you are the authority on this subject is ridiculous. We know only what retired CIA, military, and civilian people involved in the lead up decide to share. If your saying your application of political science changes fact, well.....thats a new one.

  SomBch,while you seem to be well educated and articulate I have to admit you come across as very irrogant with a demeaning and condensending attitude. I only voice my opinion and dont pretend to know everything,infact I find this thread very interesting as well as educational and am impressed with both yours and Ables point of views however I must say I find your better than everybody attitude a little ridiculous. In my opinion Ables theories or facts seem to be blowing away alot of your rhetoric.But than again I'm a simple man working for the cable company without a college degree so my opinion means nothing in your book.I didnt get a chance to spell check this so please let me know if I made a mistake  o wise one.                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

[SomBch]

smbch quotes - "I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted"

"This whole s---t storm in Iraq could have been avoided had we bombed the crap out of Iran( the country that actually has nukes and supports terrorist groups)and made that place a parking lot. After that ,all the terrorist nations would listen to what we are cookin!!! Or face ultimate extermination. And that makes sense whether you are a dem or a rep!! "

while it would have probably avoided an Iraq war, that's ignorant. Like you said they have nukes, that's the deterant right there. We  bomb them, their crazy leader unleashes nukes then the entire world is at risk. That's not a viable solution. We can't just bomb them as they are a more apt military force that may have nukes. Do you think they would let us bomb them then walk in and take over without employing all means of self preservation including nukes ?

"this is a great discussion on how to further divide and weaken America ,by looking at this situation through partisan eyes. This accomplishes nothing . "

While I agree bi-partisanism accomplishes nothing, it is indeed a partisan issue for many (excluding myself). However, this discussion does nothing to "further divide and weaken America" it draws into light the miscalculations of the Bush administration, and the unwillingness of teh Dem party to do anything at all.

"We should all realize that whether we like it or not this action in Iraq was a mistake. A mistake because we didnt go for the real problem. Yes, saddam was a tyrant and he did alot of bad things but he wasnt half the threat that Iran is ! And that my conservative and liberal friends is the inconvienent truth"

I don't look down a partisan nose at all and your accusation only proves my point of you as well as others speaking out of emotion instead of fact.
I agree Iran is indeed a problem, but how many can we handle at once? If we went into Iran tomorrow Bush would be (again) called a war monger and people would say Iran was no threat. Sadam was a tyrant and needed to be removed for his murderous ways. In addition, like you suggested before by taking out Iran to quell Iraq, it was supposed to work in revers and quell Iran by attacking Iraq. The key there is that Iraq was unable to deploy nuclear weapons in defense. And who's to say Iran didn't get their nuclear capabilities from  Iraq just as in the first gulf war he sent many of his Mig jets to Iran to keep them from US attacks ?


"what you said before was clearly rep talking points , whether you know it or not . so,  essentially thats a contradiction. But, the beauty of America is different ideas coming together to help ALL not some .I myself like to take the middle cause both parties are crooks and liars. One is not better than the other. They prove that constantly."

Again you make unsubstantiated claims of me being swayed by party affiliation only proving your uninformed responses. I am not partisan although I may or may not agree with more attributes of one party or another.
I agree both are  crooks and unfortunately we are stuck with it for now. The important thing is doing what's right to protect the US. That included taking out Sadam. Both to prevent him from aiding terrorists and to (in theory) disuade otehrs from similar actions.

"And anyone who thinks Iraq is a bigger threat to us than Iran is uninformed and clearly not aware of their military capabilities as well as their sponsorship of terrorist organizations such as Hammas,Al Queda and Hezbollah that operate through out the middle east and other muslim extremist groups operating in  south asia . Which before the war they did not operate in Iraq. Mostly because Saddam was very secular(he is not a die hard muslim) and felt that any terror groups operating in his country was a direct threat to him and his regime   "

again you post as if you and you alone know all and can tell where the threat is. I am well aware of Iran's sponsorship of terrorists, as well as Sadam's secular nature. But do you really think killing ther extremists in Iraq is bad even if tehy come from other places to get killed there?  Much of the other stuff you present as facts is simply conspiracy theory. try dealing in facts, not what you think might be the cause.

"      yeah cause there is freedom in every drop of oil!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Just another inflammatory remark that appears to suggest that we went in for reasons of oil/monetary gain. Again speculation and consipracy theory. Do you really think Bush or any of the oil rich politicians need to start a war to make money? that's just ridiculous.

"Iran's army isn't even close to the technology we have. The US has the most advanced fighting force in the world. The problem is the complete comprehension of who has what and what they would do with it . Iraq had no military. How do we know that? 1.Saddam couldn't get anything in or out without his neighboring countries or us knowing about it. 2.his army was nearly destroyed in Desert storm. 3. His army had been fighting with Iran for many years and was under staffed and burnt out or just plain dead!!

I think if every one really took the time to read the history of the region and analyzed accounts by retired military involved in both the 1991 conflict and our current situation you would have a better understanding of this"

Iran is no where near our capabilities, but even one nuke will start a nuclear war.
Iraw had no military is right, that's why we took them out instead of Iran which could have ended us up in a nuclear war.
You say to listen to those that were involved in the actions in the region? I get some of my info from some ex-UN weapons inspectors. And instead of just listening to retired military which may have a political agenda of their own, how about looking at facts with a clear head ?

"Radical muslims believe that ISLAM (the arab territories) is sacred land . And thats what they are fighting for . They dont want to invade our country, hell they dont even have the ability to get here to do it.They want there land back(sounds like the american indian, huh?) I dont want to insult anyones intelligence but from what I read so far on this thread , there are some very uninformed people that are making very uninformed posts. "

a small portion of Muslims are teh terrorist/extremists true, but almost all refuse to accept the right of Isreal to even exist! do they want to invade us ? No they want us all dead and many of the Muslim leaders have SAID IT themselves!
and again you speak out of emotion and pesonally attack others instead of sticking to facts.

" dont think there is one single American that didnt feel like we needed to put a beat down on some body for 9/11. We started out good with going to afganistan, but we took our eyes off the ball going to Iraq. We should have gone to Iran and hind sight being 20/20 that is indisputible! "

I'm amazed that you are so intelligent that you can easily solve all problems and you and only you seem to know exactly what the US should do. YOu can't prove or provide much arguement for Iran being more dangerous than Iraq. Even if you could how stupid it would have been to attack the Nuclear power instead of the one that has already lost much of its military force.

"WOW ............................that was the most ignorant rant of non facts i have ever read.You applied basic political science ideals? And I never blaimed Bush for any of the military moves , he knows better than to get involved where he knows nothing.I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted , most has come from the Iraq report.   ;DI hope your still in school cause you need a tutor.  no offense but you are very misinformed . And ill leave it at that , cause i can see im not talking to my intellectual equal. goodnight"

Again more personal attacks instead of intelligent discussion. You balk at the application of political science to a political situation ? Who has the problem there? I speak of facts and known applications of political science, you simply attack others out of emotion. I've long ago graduated, but I still keep informed. Where is your degree? where do you get your information? I'm just curious since you see to know all, but fail to support it with fact or application of proven mothodology.
You issued a challenge to dispute what you posted. I have done it not through emotion as you post, but through knowledge and backed up by facts. Now, if you are so inclined, respond with something intelligent yourself instead of another personal attack.




                                                                                 

hmm, that degree of yours didn't help, Iraq only started developing Nuclear weapons about a year and a half ago. I probably was getting my degree  when you where still listening to the backstreet boys, if I where you i wouldn't be so presumptuous.To think you are the authority on this subject is ridiculous. We know only what retired CIA, military, and civilian people involved in the lead up decide to share. If your saying your application of political science changes fact, well.....thats a new one.

  SomBch,while you seem to be well educated and articulate I have to admit you come across as very irrogant with a demeaning and condensending attitude. I only voice my opinion and dont pretend to know everything,infact I find this thread very interesting as well as educational and am impressed with both yours and Ables point of views however I must say I find your better than everybody attitude a little ridiculous. In my opinion Ables theories or facts seem to be blowing away alot of your rhetoric.But than again I'm a simple man working for the cable company without a college degree so my opinion means nothing in your book.I didnt get a chance to spell check this so please let me know if I made a mistake  o wise one.                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

I apologize I ment IRAN began developing nukes after our invasion of IRAQ,iran-iraq you know one of those crazy arab states-while my intention was not to offend ,I do take great pride in knowing the facts on things I decide to ingage people in discussion about. It comes from my education and my occupation which demands accuracy. I very well may come across as arrogant , but Im not ,Im just sure of the facts to which I state. To discount most everything Able has said would take far to much time and effort . But I can assure you that every thing I have stated on here is not from any news sources . Actually most every thing I know is from reading books incuding Against All Enemies by Richard Clarke , The National Intelligence Estimate of Iraq the declassified version,and The Iraq Committees overview of the conflict every bit factual, not to mention several friends that I went to boot camp with that are now civilian intelligence personel, Ill make sure to tell them they dont know anything and that they should call Able. So, I never said I know it all , but the better part of the things that Able posted are so innaccurate its pathetic. Not to worry , I cant see taking this thread any further since its really of no good use to the site and the other members.  No hard feelings and hope to see you all on the trail.   

[susieblazer]

  USA needs to use the same measures as applied to Japan...... A-Bomb   

[yunt2ride]

It's not a matter of oil or Israel.Bottom line is it's about protecting our country.How are we protecting our country fighting over there you say?Does anyone remember a little thing called 911? This war is a direct result or action of September 11th. When the planes crashed into the towers it drove home the reality of how vulnerable we really were.Notice I said "were"? While we're not completely safe from another attack we are however safer than we were. They chose to bring the fight into our back yard.We didn't ask for it.We had no choice but to stand up for ourselves.If that means we went to war under false pretenses "WOMD" then so be it. I really don't give a $hit if Bush new there were no WOMD or not! He did what had to be done.The terrorists were supported financially by both Iraq and Iran. It kills me when the main argument of certain anti Bush people is that we found no weopans.SO FREAKIN WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think back to how you felt watching the news on September 11th. I was at work standing beside a group of coworkers watching the first building burning and then seeing the second plane hit.I was sick to my stomach and it actually brought tears to my eyes. Bush was not the bad guy at that moment so why is he now.He is a true american with balls enough to stand up for his country despite what some may view as unpopular.In my book he is and will always be a true american hero. You people that bash the "neccessary war" and bush kill me. You continue to say he is responsible for the lost lives of soldiers and that he's responsible for the suffering of the families of them. Personally I think that YOU are dishonoring the memories of the lost soldiers and disrespecting their families by condeming what they gave their lives for and what they believed in. "Protecting the USA". To bash the president during a war is wrong. I will try to refrain from responding to this post anymore because I really get worked up by some of the people with blinders on that feel the need to make an unfortunate but neccessary situation worse by criticizing the one person that makes the decision to try to save america as a whole.In closing let me say one more time.Remember 911 and thank god you have a pesident like Mr. Bush.

 

[CABLEGUY1]

Thanks Yunt.

[Able]

Dont know if anyone said it.. But only reason we are losing is because WE DONT KNOW WHO WE ARE FIGHTING!!! They arent marked in military uniforms, so finding the target isnt easy untill they are up in your face.

If they were marked.. We outpower them, hands down.

Yep just like Viet Nam. Regardless of why we're there, you hit the nail on the head with why we haven't destroyed all resistance. Hopefully the ones that want a democratic state instead of a brutal dictatorship will step up themselves and take thier destiny into their own hands. But until then we're going to have to keep towing the line.

[Anoriginal]

Liberals think its Texas Motorspeedway race weekend?
I know that Reagan was losing his mind but that doesnt make sense!

Welfare checks.