ATV Florida Forum

over 1900 Americans have died in Iraq so far. What a G-D joke! That is a lot of people. 5 more today and I am sure there will be more tommorrow. You would think with the technology we have today we would have already wiped the f-ers off the G-D map. I am P.O.ed. Can someone give me one good reason why we are over there? It is gettin to be GD rediculous!  >:(

Oh great ::)

 :w :w In on the first page. This will turn into a huge debate/arguement about Bush,Oil, Money, and the threat on America. Everyone has their views but nothing is concrete. It is ashame that 1900 of our boys are dead. Alot of them were probably under the age of 30 so they had their whole life ahead. Remember Vietnam? Same thing happening. We have the power but can't and won't use it.   -Mark

How many died in WWi? or WWII or Korea? Hundreds and hundreds of THOUSANDS! the difference is that back then the American population wasn't filled with a bunch of liberal wimps willing to let anyone and everyone attack us and get away with it. I don't hear anyone crying about all the dead there. The fact is that if the people back then acted like the people of today we'd be speaking Japanese or German in America. Some things are worth fighting and yes even dying for. The protection of our country is at the top of the list. All those that joined the military knew the risk going in. And for the most part it's not them crying. It's the liberal limp wristed punks back here in the states. Liberating millions, Removing a murderous dictator from power, stopping one source of terrorist support are all reasons worth sacrificing 1,900 men and women. How many died in the revolutionary war to obtain a free democracy? I don't hear you complaining about it now. Sadam slaughtered tens of thousands. To stop him from doing it again, and to help the people there establish a system to protect themselves and create a society where they actually want to live and do so without fear of a mad man is worthy of the sacrifice. If we send in tons of troops the libs cry. If we don't have enough the libs cry. I wish some of you willing to complain about the cost of liberating those people and helping secure our country had to live in the conditions the citizens of Iraq had to live in under Sadam's rule. You wouldn't be crying now.

enough said,'' thats why''  ::)some people believe that crap!!!

If it helps you sleep at night.

It should help you sleep at night. If the government did nothing after 9/11 (like clinton did after the USS Cole bombing) then they would cry that it's bush's fault the next time we are attacked. If we do act it's Bush's fault that soldiers die.  Just remember if it weren't for so many soldiers in our past you wouldn't have the right to say what you want about the situation in the first place. You can't please all the people at once, so even when liberating others, protecting our country some will still whine and cry and complain about something. If ther terrorist attack again and (forbid it should happen - I would never wish such greif on anyone) one of your loved ones were killed maybe then it would be ok to target terrorism even at the expense of some of our soldier's lives.  Until then you should than the soldiers of the past that gave you the ability to cry and complain the way you do.

Cain, I agree 100% with you.

I would hardly compare the Gulf War to WWI or WWII. In both WW there were multiple countries united together fighting on the same front. The Gulf War or War on Terror as you may call it is just one country trying to bully a sandbox full of mud huts and towel heads throwing rocks at tanks.  I don't see any other country trying to force their beliefs(democracy) as much as the US is right now in Iraq. You don't see England or Spain in their do you? They had terrorist bombs go off in their countries? Why are they not over there? Hmmmm, WMD yeah I belive that.  ::)  I would compare this "war" to Vietnam. Thousands died for no reason and no positive result.

Here's something to ponder, those towel heads have been fighting for over 2000 YEARS! What makes you think that that is going to change? If there was going to be a truce wouldn't you think it would of happened by now?  So can throw the "homeland security" out the window. Nuclear arms have been around since the 40's. In 60 years wouldn't you think that a little 3rd world country would have already gotten a hold of a nuclear device or ICBM and shot it at us?

<Ding>, your turn.  ;)    -Mark

Thanks Dirt. It's just common sense (which isn't so common by the way) Freedom isn't free. There are those that appreciate it and understand its cost and those that cry no matter what happens and desecrate the honor with which so many made the ultimate sacrifice to provide us with.

No Mark I don't think they've had the opportunity to fire a nuke at us yet, which is evident by the fact that we haven't been nuked yet. Do you know one of the main reasons for the first Gulf War? I was not only to defend those in Kuwait, it was also to stop Sadam. He stated that he was months away from a nuclear device and openly stated that as soon as it was operable he would fire at Isreal. Seeing as how Isreal has been a nuclear power for years it would have started a multi nation all out nuclear war. I don't think they people of that region plan on ceasing hostilities any time soon, but I also don't believe inaction would deter them. If we don't do something they will continue to attack us with greater intensity until they do procure a nuclear device and use it. Would you rather we wait for that to happen? Thousands die for no reason? Say that to one of the millions freed from Sadam's death grip. At the end of the first Gulf was we encouraged teh kurds to revolt and rise up against him. They did, we pulled out, they were masacred and put in shallow mass graves by the thousands. We pulled out so others wouldn't think we were being imperialists and trying to take the country for ourselves. Because we left tens of thousands died and millions were starving while Sadam milked the UN's food for oil scam and built billion dollar palaces for himself.  It is a worthy cause. How would you feel if you were one of the terrified, starving tortured Iraqi citizens unde Sadam's rule ? Would it be a waste of life then ?

My family is from sweden,  they haven't been to war in over 100yrs. but they have more freedom than over here. they don't even have locks on there doors over there. but i guess there abunch of liberals that means there system does't work!!!  RIGHT!

And if the US and UK didn't enter the world wars how long would it be a free country instead of an annex of Germany, or some other hegimon nation ? And I don't believe that the social staus is directly correlated to the lack of participation in wars for a century. It does say something for the accomplished societal development which I applaud.

Well as americans we are very opinionated  ;)  if it were me in that sandlot over there I would pack my shiat (get it, sheiates? haha) and get the heck out of there. But their thinking/culture is drastically different from ours. So they "grin and bear it".  What about pulling our boys out and making our borders twice as strong. Napoleon's demise was that he spread himself too thin. I believe that ol Georgie Peorgie is doing the same with our troops.

Let me ask you this, hypothetically if 9/11 didn't happen and in your honest opinion(take the republican thinking out of the equation) do you really think that we would have invaded Iraq? Show me one newpaper clipping pre 9/11 that said we were going to invade Iraq because of WMD.  And why since some terrorist schmuck (Bin Laden) killed 6k+ of our people do we go and invade Iraq. Should we be invading afganistan since that is were he is from? Ever wonder why his name isn't brought up as much any more in the news? Hmmmm, makes you think.

To be honest, if we didn't invade Iraq and went into some other country(most likely Afganistan) to hunt down Laden I would have no problem supporting Bush. But I feel he is using Sadaam as a scapegoat. I haven't seen anything relating the two. Have you?    -Mark  

This could go on forever and annoy most people on this site I'm sure. I do understand your views Cain and enjoy reading most of your posts (funny one's mainly) :). I would say read the 9/11 Commission Report or watch the History's Channel Program on the report. You will see the problems Clinton had trying to eliminate Osama, not starting a war over the USS Cole on his way out of office and leaving that legacy. It also shows what little Bush did when he came to office about the USS Cole and against terrorism. What I got from the report was we were not prepared, mostly because of the bureaucracy in the Pentagon and the lack of communication between FBI, CIA and local law enforcement.

Mark remember, the terroist were from sadia arabia we should have attack them.'' oh wait those are bushes hand holding freinds''. :-*    

NJ, we like wilburz no matter what his opinions are, we dont dislike you because your opinions, we dont like you cause you are a post wh0re. lol

Hey, it's very demaning to refer to people as you have done, calling them "Towel heads"  >:( .

The covering Arab peoples use on their head is actually a carefully folded little sheet.

Therefore instead of calling them "towel heads" we should call them "little sheet heads"  ;D

Taken over Iraq was planned from the get-go under Bush Sr., but he didn't have all his ducks in order. 8 years passed to get them in order, 9/11 came and gave Bush Jr. the excuse he needed to go back in.

Sorry  guys  but  Im  100%  with  Cain  and  the  good  Doc  on  this  one. ;)

Cain, I think I love you. They will never understand that being nice and just keeping to yourself like good little Americans will get your asses or your childrens asses killed. The difference is our troops are getting killed on foreign soil not our wives and children on our soil. That is a big difference. I dont care if the rest of the world likes us, but I want them to know not to F with us.  These same liberals that Boo Hoo about the death of SOLDIERS dont bat an eye at aborting a baby, thats Fooked up.
 

Hell  yea !!   What  chillin  said !! ;) :box.gif ;D

you know from just being in the military myself, the worst thing i think that i could ever hear is

"why are our boys over there dying for nothing" or "what are we doing there"

just seems so damned disrespectful to the 1900 hundred folks that have given the ultimate sacrifice for their country. instead of supporting them and honoring them by standing behind what they believed in, and honoring them by doing such, we question everything and then run rampant trying to come up with some excuse. Same with the lady protesting the war, why would you disrespect the memory by protesting, instead of taking comfort that your child did what he felt was right. such is our country, though the folks that protect and enable free speech to go on will always somehow find themselves in this sort of predicament. or maybe it is just me, and i do feel greif that american soldiers are dying there, but honor the fact that we do not just simply sit by and let the world tailspin down the gutter...

Then i must ask... why is your fam here if sweden is so great..?
you know why sweden doesnt have wars.. what is there any other country would want? snow?.. chocolate? what... give me a break!

YEP!

well I thank you! My family thanks you, and because for people like yourself my 4yo will one day thank you...

My only post in this one.... i think

I'm with quad32x ;)

I for one would be more supportive of this war if we had any kind of exit plan or even any hopes of seeing one. We are spending a billion a week over there ,building schools and bridges and whatever, how about spending that here.  So I guess you can say it's all about the money for me. How about getting some more oil for our investment. We can never be payed enough for a soilders life but for our money we should at least get something. I know you'll say were doing the right thing and that should be payment enough,but it's not.

The exit plan is simple: exit when we're finished.  I agree though we should be paid back 100% and then some. That is a rich country and when its all over send  the free oil.

First off Quad you are too funy   :D You seemed rather enthusiastic about that porn assertion

Mark - I don't believe in the ridiculous theory of a pre-ordained invasion of Iraq left over fromthe first Bush admin. That's nuts and just more liberal conspiracy theory. I too think they should have gone further to get Bin Laden, but that doesn't mean we should let another mad man fanatic off the hook. 9/11 set it off for us to go offensive instead of just beef up our borders and sit back and wait. There are so many holes that it wouldn't work. Why wait until they get in ? Not only would they simply attack our allies first they would have more time to plot against us. The history of the world shows us that when a hegimon gains strength they attack the weak then the strong. It takes (usually) the next several military powers of the world world to put down the hegimon and the cycle usually starts over with a new balance of power. In today's age it's muchmore critical to watch world events since a policy of isolationism no longer works since the invention of the nuclear triad ( long range bombers, nuclear subs, and ICBM's - my political science professor would be so proud of me  ;D) so we as the only military superpower must police the world. we did go in Afganistan and put down the taliban - at that time thre was opposition to us doing that so we did so in measured steps which allowed Bin Laden to get away. As for Sadam - we went in for many reasons - I think some believed that he either was working on or was looking in to WMD again. Why doubt it as his past actions show that he we hell bent of getting and using them. We can't afford to be nuked before reacting. not only would there be political fallout "why didn't Bush act?" but we would also have potentially millions dead first. Once a nuke fight starts it would be hard to stop. Instead of other muslim nations complaining they would have joined the fight. Iran IS working on nukes and would be happy to use them. If Iraq used them on us first Iran would be a huge party knowing we were hit. If on the other hand we struck back Iran would quickly jump in to help claiming we were targeting muslims. Then instead of us aginst Iraq it would be us against Iraq, Iran, Lybia, Jordan and the list goes on. And they would probably all attack Isreal which would trigger another ,even larger, nuclear exchange. So we went in Iraqw not only for our safety, but in part for world stabilization.  It's easier to deal with bad P.R. and some partisan politics than it is to qwell a nuclear war.
I think we went in the way we did to not give the bunch of liberal crybabies time to organize against it here at home. We get more flack from here than in the world wide arena. We went in strong and got criticized for it. We take troops out and get bashed for it. It's a cry / cry proposition. I believe if the entire US was behind removing Sadam and installing democracy it would go much smoother. I don't see an end in sight since the use gorilla methods. But that doesn't mean that we walk away. It means that we need to press harder and get the job done. Who would have been for leaving Hitler alone if at the last minute he withdrew his forces and promised to be a good guy? How many did we kill in Japan to end the war and save other lives? sacrifices have to be made to achieve the goal of freedom and safety.
I agree Iraq should pay for the entire war. We liberated them and they should be happy to reimburse us. However, look at how the liberal and the media would spin that one in a hurry - Bush did it so his oil buddies could get all the oil and make biillions. Bush and his buddies are already rich. T hey don't need a war to make money. It's just another conspiracy theory of the extreme left.
Chillin - you bring up another issue which I feel STRONGLY about - and you're right. They cry about men and women that willfully entered the service to defend and serve our country and die in the process, but they want to kill babies at 9 months as long as the head is not delivered first. It's all about pointing fingers and placing blame "It's Bush's fault that soldiers are dying" and "it's the woman's right to chose" which all amounts to I'll say anything to get a vote for the libs. It's like the only ones they want to fight are Americans here at home instead of the threat overseas.

To sum it up how many soldiers have to die? As many as it takes to install democracy, remove a brutal murderous dictator, protect our country, and thwart the threat of a nuclear war. Remember we were attacked first. We owe it to our country and citizens to protect ourselves. 1,900 lives have been given for the cause. I wish it could be 0 but it's inevitable that soldiers will die in war. The good thing is that in the grand scheme of things it's a low number. We lost many more than 1,900 on some days in WWII stopping Germany and Japan from what bin Laden and Sadam could only dream about.

Crossing a line there that could end in a bad situation you two  >:(

Oh yeah that's it resort to calling names when you don't have anything intelligent to say. The typical emotional yet logistically and pragmatically useless comments of the dedicated liberal.  I agree united we stand and divided we fall. So you anti-war libs need to fall in line and support the president in protecting our country. I ahve put forth the rational for my opinions backed up by facts. You call names and make an ambiguous statement that can be applied in any way and think you did something.  I ask you directly - would you call those that fought in wars to free our country knuckle draggers ? Not only would you get to eat your teeth , but without them you'd be speaking another language and worshiping some dictator with no freedom to speak of. all the make love not war stuff is great until there is  a danger that must be dealt with. Then it's real men like me and the soldiers fighting and even dying for  our freedom that step up while people like you and clinton run for the canadian border to hide until the blood shed is done. Then you come in talking trash about atrocities while promoting the murder of innocent children so people don't have to be responsible for their actions. Yep, typical spineless lib. that takes all the freedom you can get you little hands on but not willing to make the sacrifices to make sure that we keep it. Run and hide boy, I'll let you know when the bad men are gone.

I really didn't want to reply to this post cause we all have our own beliefs and thats what makes us such a great nation.  But I will reply.  I was there the first day of the War and I saw what Sadam did to his people first hand.  He starved the Shites in the south by keeping water and food from going south, mass murdered males throughout his nation, kept kids from going to school and many other horrible things that I want even bring up.  I did over 45 days in protective gear and Iraq was littered with Chemicals as detectors picked up many of times from places in the desert to water in the Euphrates River.  That is why we should be there.  Look at the pic below of the kids, when we got to country there we no smiles on faces 2 weeks later there were smiles again.  Not aguish.

[attachment deleted by admin]

And I for one thank you and those like you for your service Seabeejim.

Jim, thanks for your honesty and your Honor to our Country.  It's a shame that these kind of stories don't get reported on our media.  You know what you are taking about.  Thanks, and let Freedom ring!

cain your either Rush Limbaugh, or a preacher, maybe a bush clone or is your name jeb,

Where is the freaking crown royal bottle or keg, cause this is going to take a LONG TIME TO GET FINISHED....All I have to say is I am with Chillin....You preach it man....Chillin for president....LE, pass me a F&*KING BEER, I am thirsty after all this typing....Come everyone, we can't let this post die...Let's keep it going...

somebody say that quad's daughter was 18?  is she coming to the next sand drags?   ;)

Do you think we should have walked away  in past wars when the fighting got tough? Behavioral reinforcement dictates that any behavior that is demonstrated that is reinforced by positive meand or by withdrawl of negative or aversive stimuli will become reinforced and therefore more likely in the future. Let them get away and they'll do it more often. We lost more civilians in the attack on 9/11 than we have lost soldiers in over a year of combat in which we freed a nation of oppressed, tortured and starving people. Which is worse? Make sure they never do it again and unfortunately lose some dedicated soldiers in the fight, or sit back and wait for the next attack in which they kill thousands more civilians ?


Hey trx - thanks for the compliments  ;D a preacher, a Bush or Rush I'd take any before our ex first lady.  Besides I don't like the name Bill ;)

lol. I kinda get that impression when ever he replies. Not because his views but every other word out of his mouth is liberal, conservative, red wing, blah, blah, blah.

Cain, why point fingers at parties everytime you post? Just talk about the issue at hand.  I've noticed that the majority of republicans that I spoke to all mention liberal this and liberal that? What's up with that? I got a buddy with a turbo 5.0 that does the same thing. Come to think of it he also lives in Brandon. What's going on over there?  ;)

I support our troops 100% but I don't support some of the decisions of our leaders. I'm not a liberal, pot smoking, long haired hippie.  My father was in the Korean War and my grandfather was in WWII and my brother-in-law is in the ROTC. It's just the big politicians are the ones that I hate. As many of you do as well.  I just feel that as bad as shape as our country is in I don't think spreading our military thin is the right choice. I'm very patroitic but we took down Sadaam and they voted for their new leader. They have a military(well sort of) why not start pullng back some of our boys?   -Mark

I was all for the war in Iraq as most people were.  I think everyones opinion changed when no WMD's were found.  One thing I am sure of though is whether we were right or wrong about the war in Iraq we must finish what we started.  You can not just pull out and leave all those innocent people behind to be taken over by another Dictator which would most likely be a terrorist organization.  We started this mess and now we must fix it.

Mark - I generalize along party lines. That's not to say that there aren't various views on either side, but from what I see most unfounded criticism and attacks come from the left. That doesn't mean that it is only a partisan issue, and I don't mean to make it one.

man your just going to piss off everyone...

LOL  :D Yeah Quad watch out for those "tigers" meow, meow  :o ;)

I like to read and laugh at times. You can tell; (for the most part) those that are young vs old, and uneducated vs educated just by the way they respond.

Let  me  put  it  this  way , if  I  put  my  hand  in  the tigers  cage  Im  coming  out  with  his  teeth ! :F ;)

the masses have spoken!!!

One thing for sure.This thread will probably be removed by morning. It tends to get ugly when you disrespect family members.

Ya your right cableguy but i didn't start the family talk quad32 guy did, read the post back, but i'm the a$$! i must of hurt his feelings i thought he could take a joke i see him giving it out all the time. maybe the moderater will put him in time out.

Yeah Quad you danged idiot. You dun made the kitty cat mad!  ;D  Geeze, don't take stuff so seriously man.

It's official.... the gang's all here  ;D

Gee.  I  guess  Im  just  a  bad  man. :tsktsk.gif  Now  bite  me. >:D

Better a bad man than a big smelly kitty  :o ;) ;D

anytime

Wow.  Im  scared. ::)

you just don't know me do ya!!!! Its funny how people think there tough

You're a prime example

you can type it can you back it

Ok  fellows.  This  has  gone  on  long  enough.  Stop  it  here. ;)

I can more than handle myself. But I don't bother with internet threats of violence as they are just like yourself senseless and useless. I don't see that solving your attitude problem. Ramble on if you must. Try to post something intelligent once  in a while  ;)
Just another example of how poorly our society has failed. " I feel inferior so I'll talk trash and threaten you over the internet since it's a safe way for me to do so without getting smacked around like I deserve? I hear your cry for help, but you need serious therapy, not an @$$ whoopin from me.

Cain, you think your tough? I heard this guy stubed his toe while watering his spice garden and only cried for 15 mins.  ;D

LOL Quad I hope you know I laugh while typing to this guy. I respect other's opinions even when I disagree, but this guy is unbelilevable.  :P

LMAO. 2:L :L 2:L  Ok.  I  tried. ;D

I'm done. I would rather debate intelligently with Mark and others with actual opinions instead of internet threats  ;)

I pulled my posts that might be seen as offensive to make sure that I am not responsible for the mods pulling this thread. There are some that enjoy an intelligent discussion even when it's about a controversial issue. I will refrain from feeding into junk behavior to enable such intelligent threads to survive. I hope others will do the same.

Boxing is diffrent from an all out street fight but that doesn't matter. Can't we all just get along? Me, Cain and Quad were just messing around with you man. I know you have a sense of humor and if you look at it closely it is pretty funny. If we all bring personal attacks into this we will get this topic deleted. I won't put anymore attacks on you. I call a truce.

Its funny how someone wants to fight over this on an ATV website but is againt fighting for freedom

LOL now that's irony right there  :D

Anyone that has served will tell you the same thing, we started the mission now for better or worse we have to finish it. No matter how much we dislike the end result our boys have lost too many freinds and family in this war to quit now, to do so would dishonor the sacrifices that have been made on the grunt level.
You boys who like to have high school arguments need to grow up and join the military so you can put all your energy to some use.Or are you scared? I served (just to keep you from going there) so I know the sacrifices by our boys are tough to swallow, but just about everyone of them would lay down their life for the brother in arms next to them.

Collin Powell quit after Bush lied to him and embarassed him in front of the U.N.. He seems to have pushed his own agenda upon the world. I did not see any WMD's found in Iraq and if you call thousands of Iraqies dieing in there own contry each month liberation you are living under a rock. It seems like the isurgents are infiltrating Iraq to kill Iraqies and American soldiers. It is a global call to all to come to Iraq to kill Americans.

I would like to also add that I do support the men and women over there who are serving our country and wish them good luck. I just think the game plan could have been alot tighter as to limit the loss of life. 

wow never thought this was gonna get back on topic.

another thought, i think the problem is not so much that 1900 folks have died, a rather small number in comparison to other wars, but certain forms of media has found ways to romantisize war so much, and since the dawn of the press era we live in, all the news channels do is find propaganda of sorts to spread to the masses. Before vietnam, no one ever truly saw war as we do today, and with the allowing of reporters to run amuk, they only focus on the tragedys that occur, unfortunately in this country more so than most, misery loves company it seems, and not only that but it sells so well

Your absolutely right Jaskel

Wilbur - right no weapons of mass destruction. They were finding all the toxins in the land and river for no reason. maybe they're naturally there ? And there is just no chance that in the hours or days prior to invasion that sadam shipped them to other places say oh I don't know Libya? or Iran or any other American hating neighbor he had. Besides saving millions of lives means nothing if you don't catch him withthe WMD. And people dying there now are either the terrorists, soldiers fighting for freedom, or innocent - yet now free due to our efforts - Iraqis that are killed by the terrorists. The more terrorists that go to Iraq means less that can come to America for a follow up to 9/11. Burying your head in the sand and hoping terrorism will go away will never work. We must stop them or we will be attacked time and time again.

The missing explosives in the unsecured bunker from the beginning of the war is what the Al Qaeda is using for suicide bombers in Iraq now. See, I made a comparison purely by speculation, but maybe we forgot that Sadam gassed his people years before and maybe that's why the ground and rivers are polluted. I personally think Sadam dumped and sold the WMD's, but years before the war. What's that joke "We know Sadam has WMD's, because we have the receipt"  :)

Friends of mine in the military said the equipment used to house the bio-agents they came across had been untouched for a long time. Sure he could of put the WMD's in a different location, but the shelf life of these agents have expired and are no longer a threat.

just a thought, I spent the last 10 minutes cleaning up this post, please don't make any of the mods delete it.

I don't think any of us will spend more time than that.

Id@

Understood.

Id@, have no fear the zilla is here. I'll just run them over with my dinosaur.  ;)

Cain, I respect your views...well kinda.  ;) j/k. I'm just pissed at the death toll, and yes I know that with a war there's death. I don't know how I would of reacted when Truman gave the ok to drop the A bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't know the exact number killed but I believe it easily excessed 100k.  But it's how our troops are dying. Pu$$& a** suicide bombers, road mines, and snipers.  What do we have to "finish"? What classifies the mission as complete? I thought that since now they have some type of government setup up that we just have to train their military and up their head count to allow them to fend for themselves? There will always be terrorism in the world, that will never be extinct. There's always gonna be some extreme Al Queida Ala Muhamad Isalmic Jehad El Crapo group with  intention similiar to the cartoon "Pinky and The Brain" with plans to take over the world. So with that being said, to get the job complete the ETA is NEVER????????????????????? -Mark

The death toll sucks, but it's a small sacrifice when you look strictly at numbers. There will always be bad guys in the world but that doesn't mean we turn out backs. We have criminals in the US and yet we pay cops to work  all day every day. We don't give up in teh face of adversity.  In the terrorist example we wipe out the main hordes and deal with the few stragglers as they come. We can't say oh well therre will always be terrorists so why bother. We knock out their main supports and make it harder for them to exist and attack. there is no eta in time but maybe in successfully supressing enough to make it ok to take a defensive posture. By installing democracy in Iraq and Afganistan we are well on our way. we have given two less places for terrorists to hide and plot against us. hopefully soon the gov in Iraq will be self sufficient and able to handle security there on their own. But for now we need to be there to help get things going in the right direction.

Right but earlier you said "to finish the job" well finish what? Now you say there is no ETA.  So realistically the US troops will be there for what 5 yrs, 10 yrs, indefinately? See my point. I most certainly don't agree with the mentality of "turn our heads" but d**n do something that has an impact against them. Since establishing a new government and Sadaam's downfall the terrorist haven't stopped. So what's next? We could send squadron after squadron of bombers and level the cities. But the innocient die, but that's war right? Innocent people died in 9/11, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. But sitting there like ducks in a pond is not what I call a War on Terror.  -Mark 

EDIT: all this is, is just another Veitnam. You have any friends or relatives that fought in Vietnam? Ask them if they think this war is similiar.     

There are all kinds of terrorists hiding in iraq and afganistan right now waiting to shoot an rpg at anyone. I don't think they are having any problem existing there and plotting. I think the us is taking a defensive posture right now and getting soldiers killed this way. the us has gone on offensive a few times but what they are really lacking is a whole lot more soldiers. They are undermanned and undergunned. If they would have brought in more soldiers in the beginning the place proballby would not be such a powder keg.     

Yes, but where are we suspose to get the soldiers from? Could of really used the UN's support, even though I think they would of needed a lot more evidence to help us out. Not the UN is all that, but at least we might be able to get some of our boys back here to protect us.

That's the other thing that doesn't make sense. If the UN was against invading Iraq then why did we go ahead and move in anyways? UN said no, Colon Powell was lied to then retired, what was the reason on why went in there again? Oh ya I forgot, WMD.  ::)   -Mark

Great thread.

Thats all you have to say, i got so excited when i saw you replied then i get this. I am very dissapointed. :(

 2:L That's what I was thinking

 cain you might have a good point when you wrote                                                                                                                                                                                                   Behavioral reinforcement dictates that any behavior that is demonstrated that is reinforced by positive meand or by withdrawl of negative or aversive stimuli will become reinforced and therefore more likely in the future.

IT all started when Kennedy left the Cubans  with their stuff in the wind at the Bay of pigs, sence then half a-- withdraw from Korea, flat out abandoned  nam  , now its a toss up if we stay the course or not.
so I guess we did learn but not a he-- of a lot

Actually, I haven't had time to read it all in depth. I like to really read carefully and think about things before I post. I can tell you this much, I don't see things in terms of party lines or in terms of liberal verses conservative. I think the extremes on both sides are equally foolish/dangerous. I'm more of a realist.
Anyway, with the brief review I've given this thread; it seems to be quite "spirited" to say the least. Cain is as eloquent as ever and always has some interesting perspective.  I'll follow up.  It's just that lately, my career has kept me so busy I've hardly had time to catch my breath.

Anoriginal - I hope your career leaves time for some correspondence. I enjoy a good debate as you know. Mark is definitely a good one to discuss such an issue with, but hey , the more the merrier

I don't think we'll be there forever, but so far it's a relatively short time when you look at the overall picture. Remove a dictator that has destroyed the country over the last 30 years, begin the process of installing democracy, and help secure our country at the same time, while continuing to fight the terrorists of neighboring countries that flock to the battle due to religious beliefs.
We went in without the UN because they are and have been for a great deal of time, an impotent society of scholars that wish they had an impact. It's a joke. They all made resolutions about Iraq then backed down. And why? Um how about the billions of barrels of oil flowing into their countries while those governing the oil for food program and sadam got rich.  Greed is a nasty thing and the UN is consumed by it. How about the pipelines to Russia and rance? Gee I wonder why they resisted any real action and were for more talk and useless resolutions. We as a nation stopped paying UN dues under the Reagan administration. As recently as a few years ago we still weren't paying.  There's a reason for that.
Finishing the job means staying until we can stabilize the country and make sure that some oter nut won't come to power and pull a sadam. How long has there been a US military presence in Korea ? Is that job finished? If we walk away they regroup and attack. Now they are on the defensive looking for places to hide. Gorilla tactics are effective, but so is a war of attrition. I don't know the exact numbers but we kill many of them for every one of ours. It stinks but we need to stay until we can make sure a strong anti-terrorist democracy is installed and functioning. Yes that means a longer deployment for our troops. Which would you rather have? our troops there hunting down the terrorists and keeping them on the run, or our troops here waiting to see where we are attacked next so they can help clean up the dead bodies?

Here's one way to look at it, If our boys and girls weren't over there keeping them busy defending their own beliefs the terrorists would be over here making us targets and killing innocents.
I don't really agree with the reasons for going to war, but it's too late for that to matter considering how deep into this thing we are.
I do have to wonder about what the long term payoff will be. What happens if the country doesn't stabilize, do we stay or pull out? I agree that we should probably maintain a strong military presence even after we pull out, how else can we gaurantee that all the sacrifices this country has made to try and save Iraq will be worth while. In Korea we have maintained a presence since the end of the Korean war, in Cuba we own part of the island. If and when we do "pull out" we'll never be done with it because of how much Americans have already invested.

Not to be offensive , but that is a totally ignorant remark to make. If we were filling tankers and bringing them out would gas be $3.00 per gallon ? That's just a Bush hating, unfounded statement trying to blame his personal agenda for a war that started when we were attacked. Oil doesn't go into the equation. That's just anti-Bush propoganda. If you were already rich would you start a war to make a few more bucks? Bush doesn't have to worry about money. If that were the case it would make more sense to inverst wisely than to put up with the political grief it has brought. Please participate AFTER doing some research so that you may post relavent remarks. Opinion or facts are great, but at least have a reason for saying it. Going back to personal attacks are played out and old. If you personally have proof I would love to see it.

Cain

What do you think the exceptable ratio of dead insurgents to dead american soldiers should be? 1000 to 1? Less? Evertime one American soldier dies over there for nothing is one time too many. The game plan, if you want to call it that, was and still is a joke. If we wanted to stabalize the region why not just up the troop count in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait? Iraq has been stabalize for the last ten years until we intervened.     

would you send in 5 firefighters into a burning building to save 1 little girl? I would. I hate that any American soldiers or that any civilians die at the hands of terrorists, but that doesn't mean we should walk away. How aboutyou ask some newly freed Iraqi citizens if 1,900 deaths was too many to free a country. And stable ? I bet you would have thought it stable befor ehe invaded Kuwait too. Does that mean as long as he's only killing his people, promoting and funding terrorism, and doesn't actively attack us with his military that it's a stable territory ? American soldiers aren't dying for nothing. They are in the process of installing  democracy where only brutal dictatorship was before. Does that mean that it's for nothing unless it is to save your life ?

I don't think 5 firefighters saving a girl is much of a comparison to the invasion of Iraq.     

What logic do you think the countries that did not support invading Iraq used to come to that conclusion? Maybe they did not think of Iraq as a global terrorist haven?

Would you send in 5  or so huge contracting companies with billions of dollars worth of contracts at stake to help out with the stabalization process? Seems as though Mr. Bush did. No bidding process either. Seems like the whole thing is about money to me.     

Would you rather we sent in all of our military to do the job that civilians can do? Then you would cry that our military should be doing other things. You're right the fireman analogy wasn't acurate, let me fix it. How about 1 soldier to rescue 5000 Iraqi little girls ?

I'm tired.  How about we have a drink? :)

As long as it's not laced so you can get my pants off  ;) :-[

How high is your tolerance to rhohipnol or GHB? ;)

I donn knoouuw  whhhy -a  dooou I feeeeelllll sooooo sleeeeeepeeee ?

Not to reign on your train of thought too much here, but in perspective a bit, or to say that i condone anything that a terrorist would do, but death being death, the Brits probably said the same damned thing when we introduced our guerilla tactics during the revolutionary war...

I am not saying they should keep it up, far to the contrary, they honestly should all just get together and blow themselves and their compadres up, but, history tells us that anyway someone can fight, and try to gain some sort of advantage will be taken

How many more have to die-hopefully no more-but that's not realistic.  The truth is however many it takes to get the job done.  The US can not just up and leave that country in the state of turmoil it is currently in.  Hopefully the radicals will soon see that they will not gain anything with their acts of violence/stupidity, other than getting dead-by themselves or by us!!

Thank you i feel much better, I was gettin worried that you were afraid to "go off" like you have before. Glad to hear thats not the case.

Just wondering you said you were in the military but where you over there?  It's just a question no means of disrespect.

My head hurts now form reading all this stuff  :K

So now you have turned caring deeply for the loss of American lives, including ones son or daughter,  into something "disrespectful"?  That my friend is truly ludicrous.

Nobody felt this way about Afghanistan. We knew the facts and acted upon it. It was
justified.

Iraq on the other hand is slightly more complex. Our history with that country has ultimately screwed its people more than helped them.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

This isn't even a War. It is an Occupation, an Invasion or Takeover. What ever you want
to call it other than War. Did they really have any chance of winning? NO

And don't give me that crap that it's about freedom, its not. Ever since 9/11 my
freedom was not in jeopardy, but my safety was.  And if you say it's about the
Iraqi's freedom... well, that is still yet to be determined. Right now that are neither
free nor safe.

And also our leaders contradicted themselves for their own justifications as why we our over there:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

Please, nobody speculate that there was WMD, the facts say right now there was not.

If only we treated our own country with type of generosity:

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=171440


The information is out there. But you have to look past our own media.
I have even seen the atrocities we ourselves have commited to the Iraqi's
on Public television, on American TV.

I pray that somehow, someway for someone to be delivered a vision of resolution
to this conflict. I am not foolish enough to believe in World Peace but I do believe
we could live in a more Peaceful World.

Take care all

No i am not, but my point is, that until the men and women started dying, the whole country to include the parents and family of loved ones lost were behind this overwhelmingly. I truly feel sorry for the families that have lost someone so far, however I do not recall the lady protesting outside of Pres Bush's ranch being there prior to his death, did you? If i missed that part please let me know

And as for have i Been there, luckliy for me I have not been to Iraq, but I have been to Afghanistan, so can i speak with full knowledge on the subject, no, no more than most folks on here

And another thing, maybe this is too cliche' for some, but with all the complaining, there is not very much action, the beauty of the country, or rather of its design is that if you dont like the way something is, you have the opportunity, after turning the merry old age of 35 and run for president. Like i said though it may be to cliche', but hey its one way to institute change, if you have the will to do so

Post is old I relize that but I'm gonna post anyhow..

Simple, Liberal minds in america are set on the media's promise. Its a promise to the truth throughout.. Unfortunately the media is a liberal bias .. The left hears and believes everything on the news and in the papers. They seem to never become educated to the truth..   

Interesting observation, but you forget that the media is mostly Corporate owned, so I disagree the News here is Liberal bias. I would have to agree the News is Liberal in other parts of the world though. Now let's get back to quad'n  :)

Hey Rep or Dem lets put our differences aside! We need our soldiers back to fight for my karma points  :o ;)

"GEORGE BUSH HATES BLACK PEOPLE"  ;) ;D 

Cain- What are you doing in the + karma range? lol.  -Mark

You're lucky Old_School. I was gonna smit you for that but I gave you applause less than 24 hour so I 'll have to wait and see how you act  ;) ;D

 :w  ;) lol. Too funny.  -Mark

Anti-War Ant-American Left Wing Extremeist's.
Your all so full of hate towards anything or anyone that has anything to do with George W. Bush...

Here's A Quote For Ya...
We have exhausted all of our diplomatic effort to get the Iraqis to comply with their own agreements and with international law. Given that . . . we have got to force them to comply, and we are doing so militarily.
--Tom Daschle, in 1998, when President Clinton, struck Iraq

That Was Warrented..right..? o only when its a democratic led war...

It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it.
- General Douglas MacArthur

You Liberals are the ones turning this into a Media Ran VIETNAM..
You are trying to rape the will of are soldiers to do what is needed to be done..

Posted by: bugmanjr:
"Anti-War Ant-American Left Wing Extrem.... "

We are kind of giving the whole serious political debates
that often get very heated...  a break for now.

Just an FYI.

 

Whew, thank you 310rdude  ;D

You're welcome cain,
    It's cool mon', you dropped me off at the last stop   8)





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Hey dano is that the same bus that you use to take to the track pulling your short trailer with your short blaster with no siliencer packing lol;lol;lol; :bow.gif  YOU DA MAN!!!

No sweat brother, just remember to take your helmet next time  ;) ;D

So we should have done nothing? I guess you've forgotten about the USS Cole, and the US embassies in Africa?

Were the Country that has the highest death rate and we dont know how to fix it.