ATV Florida Forum

http://www.boycottford.com/

read and decide for yourself

i don't know if "sick" is the right word. it may be disturbing to some but hey, look the other way.

I WORK FOR FORD BUT I DONT AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON. BELOW IS THE RESPONSE FOR THE BOYCOTT : FOR THE RECORD I STAND FOR TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE VALUES WITH THESE FOLKS
http://florida4marriage.org/
LEVITICUS 20:13

Ford's Response to American Family Association's Boycott

Dearborn, Mich., May 31 – [The following statement is attributable to Joe Laymon, Ford Motor Company group vice president, Corporate Human Resources and Labor Affairs, in response to the American Family Association's boycott of Ford products.]

"Ford Motor Company values diversity among all of its constituents. The Company prides itself on strong and clear values – respect for our customers, communities, employees, suppliers and dealers; acceptance of our differences; inclusion of different people with different perspectives; and integrity to always do the right thing. Ford values all people – regardless of their race, religion, gender, sexual orientation and cultural or physical differences. And we are glad to see that this spirit of inclusion is evident in the practices of other automakers who do business in this country as well. It is one of the things that makes us proud to be part of the auto industry."
Go to http://media.ford.com for news releases and high-resolution photographs.
Q&A
FORD'S RESPONSE TO AMERICAN FAMILY ASSOCIATION'S
BOYCOTT
[Situation: On May 31, the American Family Association launched a boycott against Ford
products and Ford dealers due to the Company's diversity policy and its support of various gay,
lesbian and transgender events. The Company has issued a formal statement in response, which
is attributable to Joe Laymon, group vice president, Corporate Human Resources and Labor
Affairs.]
Main Messages:
Ford Motor Company values diversity among all of its constituents. The Company prides itself on strong
and clear values – respect for our customers, communities, employees, suppliers and dealers; acceptance
of our differences; inclusion of different people with different perspectives; and integrity to always do the
right thing. Ford values all people – regardless of their race, religion, gender, sexual orientation and
cultural or physical differences. And we are glad to see that this spirit of inclusion is evident in the
practices of other automakers who do business in this country as well. It is one of the things that makes
us proud to be part of the auto industry.
Q. Does Ford support homosexual marriage?
A. Ford Motor Company supports diversity, which means being respectful and inclusive,
accepting differences and valuing all people – regardless of their race, religion, gender, sexual
orientation and cultural or physical differences. This simply is our corporate philosophy, not a
stance in any public policy debate.
Q. How does Ford feel about the boycott spearheaded by American Family Association?
A. At Ford, valuing diversity among its various employees, customers, dealers, suppliers, etc.,
is extremely important. The Company believes it is essential to be respectful, inclusive and
accepting of different people with different perspectives. This also includes being respectful of
different opinions.
Go to http://media.ford.com for news releases and high-resolution photographs.
2
Q. How do you respond to the specific accusations the AFA presents on their Web site?
A. While we do not intend to rebut the AFA on each of the items they raise, there are a couple
of points worth noting:
· The AFA points to the fact that Ford has been on the DiversityInc "Top 50 Companies
for Diversity" list in each of the four years the rankings have been published. That is
true, and we're proud of it.
· The AFA claims that Ford held the first automotive conference aimed at bringing
diversity to the car industry. They claim that diversity is a code word for homosexuality.
Actually, diversity is about being respectful and inclusive of all people – it is much
broader than sexual orientation.
· The AFA points to Ford's 100 percent score on this year's Human Rights Campaign's
Corporate Equality Index. This index is a review of how America's largest companies
treat their lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender employees, consumers and investors.
We are proud that we're being recognized for treating those constituencies fairly.
Q. Why does Ford offer same-sex domestic partner benefits? You must support
homosexual marriage if you offer those.
A. Providing these benefits does not mean we are taking a stand on this public policy debate.
Rather, it is a matter of fairness to our employees. It represents a business decision that is at the
foundation of offering an inclusive environment.
Q. Does Ford have any internal organizations that support the gay and lesbian lifestyle?
A. Ford has ten Employee Resource Groups available for employee participation. One of
them is Ford Gay, Lesbian, or Transgender Employees (GLOBE). Others include the Ford
Parenting Network, Professional Women's Network, Ford Employees Dealing with DisAbilities,
Ford Chinese Association, Ford Hispanic Network Group, Ford Employees African Ancestry
Network, Ford Asian Indian Association, Ford Interfaith Network and the Middle Eastern
Community at Ford Motor Company.
Q. What role does GLOBE play within the company?
A. As one of ten Employee Resource Groups, GLOBE helps Ford create an inclusive
environment. For example, GLOBE served as a consultant to the company when health care
benefits were extended to same-sex domestic partners.
May 31, 2005 ###

well if two people care for one another and want to spend the rest of their lives together than why does any one else give a sh-it? people need to mind their own business and evolve already.

its the volvo and mazda divisons ;D lol

hahahahahababahabhabahahahahah!..... good stuff.

evolve? Some of us are willing to stand up for what is right. I remember years ago gays and lesbians just wanted to be left alone. then it was they wanted it taught as "alternative" lifestyle. and now they want benefits and the right to be legally wed. We need to stand up now simply take the path of least resistance.

i'll tell you what ford supports.-THE BOTTOM LINE.
if they can sell more cars by gaining the gay vote than so be it.

no wonder ford trucks are number one in sales, all the homos are buying them.

you have NO idea what you started

Don't want to be mean but I dislike any rights/privlages anythin that homosexuals get. I think its gross and I disagree w/ it. Just my opinion.

That would explain the Escape Hybrid :o.  The 06's will probably come with a rainbow sticker option.

real men drive Chevy

lol 8)

chuck you crack me up. i knew i'd get a rise out of you when i posted this. its all good bud. i'm sitting here laughing. ;D

setting aside our "who has the better truck" opinion i agree with your comments i think this politically correct horsecrap has gone too far. evryones afraid of hurting someones feeling or getting sued. whatever happened to the first ammendment-"FREEDOM OF SPEECH"

Chuck, thanks for posting Ford's "official statement".  Dealers like your's must be taking a lot of flack over this.  What I think is sick about it is that Ford is exploiting a detestable lifestyle to make money.  Then they use clever words to make it sound like it is OK.  Ford is far from being neutral on this one, they are actively promiting an agenda. 

Recently, a boycott of Proctor and Gamble pressured the company to change several of their policies and resulted in the resignation of one company official.  When companies see that it is hurting the bottom line, amazingly they start to get it.

Sadly, many people are trapped in this destructive and often deadly lifestyle, many want to get out.  One of our pastors is president of this organization:  http://exodus.to/default2.asp

Since we're on the subject... Disney was one of the first to offer benefits for same sex couples. They even have a gay day. Now that's sick ! Just imagine how you would feel if you didn't realize their homo parade was and they all showed up after you had paid your huge entry fee  >:(. It's a shame that an American legacy that is recognized around the globe supports such practices and life styles. Add them to the boycot list - near the top.

If I had been aware of Ford's stance onthe matter I would have avoided buying my Mustang for just that reason.
Don't even start Cableguy... I also own a chevy  Tahoe !
At least you and I agree on the brand of ATV (but red is the men's color there !) 

 Hey Mr tally man tally his banana !  ;D

I work for Tropicana which is owened by PepsiCo. They support just about the same issuses that Ford does.

What really bothers me is fact about our medical insurance, they won't cover hedrosexual grilfriend & boyfriends that live to gether and been together for some time.

But they cover homosexual partners by their medical insurance.  :o >:(???

But in my opinion it has more to do with PepsiCo than it does with Tropicana.
So please don't stop buying Tropicana products. Like Chuck_Norris I to need to pay my bills and give the support my family needs.

I'm trapped in a destructive and sometimes deadly lifestyle, but I don't want out,,,,,,I just can't seem to take my hands off of my big, red, pumping......




HONDA.  ;D

Id@

I had an Educated comment to make then the Redneck in me took over and started to get pretty rude. ultimately it would be best if I just said that that comment does not warrant discussion, you obviously are way off target.all brand Loyalty set aside FORD pays my bills but  Let me just say for the record I am sickened to the point of quitting my job because of it but you know something, it is the legislative weeneres that cave into this special interest garbage to earn Votes and get their agenda passed. you think for one minute that FORD is the only company responsible for this type of activity you need to check yourself and the employer you work for. go ask them their poilcy for Homosexuals and or religious practices. I bet you will actually get the dont say dont know speech or something similar in legal jargen like " we are a diversified organization and we dont dicriminate against race creed, religion or Sexual orientation" I SAY AHHH HORSE PUCKY they are just flat out  LAW SUITE SCARED in the sue happy world that we live in, that  someone who is living a life describe by the BIBLE as an abomination before GOD  might get their're Feelings hurt. decentcy in AMERICA has become a minority.

It started with Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve  :-\

Let's all believe in 1 God-because your God is my God and that's the right God.  Let's not have an original thought/idea and live everyday by the good book and believe everything our government says.  Let's put a halt to stem cell research and kill all the gays.

See ya at church on Sunday.

Health care/insurance premiums are at an all time high and no vision or word has been seen/heard on correcting this.  I seriously doubt one of the reasons gay people want to marry is for the benefits.  Hell, I was paying less before I got married and had a kid-Am I being penalized for living a heterosexual lifestyle?

LOL ;D ;D ;D

When it comes to business it's all about the money. There will always be gays and they, like us, tend to work and pay for goods. Ford is just bringing in the buck. I'm more concerned with Wal-Mart's business model that most corporations are mimicing, that is driving down wages for American workers, but that's another post.

Id@, you're a riot, LMAO.  ;D Wanna get our Reds together sometime in the forest?   ;D

If they're real men then why does a real man parade round a Winston Cup Circuit with RAINBOW colors on his car and nicknamed "The Rainbow Warrior?  ;D ;) jfwy.

Like someone said earlier car manufactors are all focused on making money and nothing, I repeat nothing else. If it doesn't make them money coughcamarocough they can it. ;)  This is just another marketing scheme. I'll be you they won't continue to support adam and steve if it doesn't boost sales.

Actually I DO support same sex marriages.......
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But only if both chicks are hot!!!  ;D             -Mark

I would have to disagree. Let the ugly chicks marry and save the hot for me ;D

Here's a local girl for you.

[attachment deleted by admin]

local girl? thats one of them there hermaphrodites.

Hey you're right... and next when the freaks that rape and kill little kids want it to be legalized just because they lead an "alternative" lifestyle we should grant it. In  fact lets send them the kids that we can't get adopted out that way we kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
I have said it many times before... this is a country based upon Christian morals (no particular one). We as a country preserve the right to believe the way you want, and to make sure everyone is as free as they can be without cutting into someone else's rights. As a majority gays are viewed (yes by me) as something not intended by our creator. In fact even from an evolutionary stand point it's wrong. The threory of natural selection picks and propogates mutations that are beneficial and ensure the survival of the species. I assert that an all homosexual existence would ensure the end of our species.
Just because we live in a free society doesn't mean that anything everyone is O.K. What's next legalize beastiality because a few freaks say they like it? How about incest? Why not, there are people out there that want to fertilie the female human egg, let it develop to a certain point and kill it to extract the genes to study for what they hope (no proof) will help some poor person with a desease or injury. Killing one to save another is not a good thing.
This could go on forever and I invite a more elaborate debate in a more appropriate place where those reading/writing agree to civil terms and an adult discussion on controversial topics.
In short, no, we should not embrace or support gays or their lifestyles nor should we allow them the same benefits that hetrosexuals have. If sex is a pain in the a&& and smells like s#&t then you're doing it wrong ! :o

bottom line is people are going to do what they are going to do. and as long as it dosen't hurt anybody or anything then why do you give a fu-ck? i just don't understand all this hoo-raa over what some body else likes! is it right or wrong? ............. who's to say? not me, not you.

judging by some of your responses i'd be hard pressed to find a civilized person in this thread. homosexuality has been around for thousands of years and it's not going anywhere deal with it. so fight it we may but i think we'd be better off fighting a different battle with some sort of resolve in the near future. like tougher laws on sexual offenders in particular the offenders that pray on children. this is a subject that we can make an impact on.

Cane, you got my Vote for President!
The whole who cares attitude as long as they keep it to  them selves is why they are out in Public now.
No matter what it is whether it be us on a 4 wheeler riding in places we shouldnt, or being a fag in short who wants more rights, it's the whole "Give and Inch and take a mile" factor.(no pun intended)
I am not gonna ride on others points although I agree w/ a lot of them but History will show you that God Burned down Sodum&Gamora because  of the gay lifestyle. When God takes away his grace and mercy from the USA and its going to happen all I can say is I hope you are a child of God because the ole saying "ALL HELL's Gonna BREAK LOOSE"  when this takes place.(I am Inyourdraft2000 and I aprove this message)

silly bible bangers.

I would agree I don't care what you do as long as it doesn't effect me... forcing the general public to accept a deviant lifestyle is bothering people.  And "silly bible bangers" was a hypocritical remark to make don't you think? Does it bother you id someone else practices religion? Does that mean that we should allow all acts that don't physically impact another individual? I've heard of liber, but I don't think even Kerry would go along with that.... at least not for long before changing his mind... severl times. But I digress....Even if you bigb should recognize that without us "silly bible bangers" there would be no America as it is today. That ideology is the basis of our nation..... more hypocracy on your part. At some point there must be a value judgement made on the behalf of the gerneral population. Sooner or later there has to be a decision made on what it right or wrong. I am glad that you that you have reclused yourself from such a burden as most of us would probably not like the outcome. Why not go with the people that say things like Don't kill, Don't steal, Don't lie, etc. ? It seems more advantageous than going with a "it didn't physically touch me so I don't care" philosophy. The greatest good for the most. It's time we stopped catering to the minute amount of people that want the entire system changed to accomodate their wants.

Subject: From Andy Rooney -- "I agree"   Andy Rooney

DID YOU KNOW? As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view  ... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!




.
DID YOU KNOW?

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.



DID YOU KNOW?


As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,
a display of the Ten Commandments!








DID YOU KNOW?





There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.




DID YOU KNOW?



James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:


"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."


DID YOU KNOW?





Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:


"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".


DID YOU KNOW?


Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.


DID YOU KNOW?



Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.


DID YOU KNOW?

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law . an oligarchy


the rule of few over many.


DID YOU KNOW?


The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:





"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."


How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

Let’s put it around the world and let the world see and remember what this great country was built on.



Chamber, US House of Representatives

Now that's what I'm talking about !!

In short, no, we should not embrace or support gays or their lifestyles nor should we allow them the same benefits that hetrosexuals have.


As I sit here and just keep watching those heterosexual benefits rolling in-I sit back and think, thank God I'm not gay-come on, what benefits? 

It's always good to look at things with a closed mind.

My daddy and my church said it, it must be right and no I will not buy Ford because those damn queers like them and by God, Ford supports the gays.  (doesn't this all sound just a little ridiculous-just a little?)  While we're at it, let's turn back the clock and start re-discriminating against all other races that aren't white.  White Power!!
--Just to clarify that last part-I'm not racist just trying to prove a point.

that's it, I'm done-I don't care if its raining, I'm goin' ridin'-well as soon as I get out of work that is-working saturday just to soak up all those heterosexual benefits!!!

For everyone that disagrees with the Christian values upon which our country was founded,all the freaks, deviants, fags, child molesters, killers, flag burners, non-conforming immigrants, ACLU members, why try to destroy our country when it is so great? We started this country with God in mind and it has proven to work as we are the greatest and strongest nation in the world. If you want a super liberal, gay, baby raping, murderous, any thing goes country then go start one somewhere else. This one is ours.

well "your" country wasn't founded it was stolen. but that's a different story all together.

gays have been around forever and there not hurting anyone so leave 'em be. for you to put them in the catagory with molesters and rapists just shows your lack of acceptance for others. that's weak. like i said before all this energy that goes into trying to change two consenting adults lifestyles would be much better applied to situations where you have a victim. thats the thing i don't get, there's no victim then there's no crime, why's everyone being so close minded.

your right this is america! this is the land of the free. the place where people are free to be who they want without fear of humiliation or just plain fear.

black, white, male, female, straight or gay. you are who you are and i just don't think it's fair for some one to come along with a 2000 year old book and say "you're wrong". it shows blind faith in something unproven, and based on that you're willing to ban an entire group of people.


if you don't take a step back and learn from history you're always going to be stuck in yesteryear and the world won't take long to pass you by. do like your book tells you and "love thy neighbor".

well said, bigb-

there is this other thing this country is great for, you may have heard of it-freedom of religion-right to believe, the right not to believe, the right to believe in any God that may not be the same as yours.

And I also think there may have been this thing that stated not to dicriminate due to race, creed, religion, gender-I don't know but this may fall under that-That is an American, not to hate or discriminate but I could be wrong-just practicing that freedom of speech.

and I do love my country!! and most of the people in it.

it must suck to be some of you guys.


cableguy the least you can do is make your own statement like a big boy.

what exactly is silly and sucks  about it,  ??? it is alot better than the alternative, I sure would like to hear your ideas for a better society in America. Bring it I will debate it with you on, But then again I'll bring the the manual of life and bang it hard and strong. I stand for What was done on Calvary so that people like you can benefit at my Saviors Expense. Jesus Died so that you could live, you will only be able to deny until the day you stand before Him.

well i wasn't trying to offend i wanna clear that up. to each their own.

lots of people are religious, including members of my family. who am i to say if it's right or wrong. all i was saying is practice what you preach.


the bible preaches about acceptance and loving one another. and america stands for freedom and being who you want. so the two things everyone keeps going back to as a crutch are shot.

who's to say if jesus even existed. if so then why did allah let him become lord (islam has been around WAY longer) let's say both of those gods are false. then what about budda, the devil? or even the greek gods?

you see for every society there is a religion and that religion caters around the wants of the people,why? because the people fabricate it. yes the story of jesus is a fabrication as well as all the others. don't get pissed that's not what i'm trying to do i understand this all sounds real bad to ya. but if you take a step back and look it all makes sense.

so why not just be a good person accept people for who they are and live life. there's nothing else you can do, unless you are just stuck on being part of the herd. and if that's the case than i feel sorry for you because that would mean you can't think for yourself. people need to relize that everything passed down from the people before isn't true and we need to question everything, espesially if it's something we are gonna live our lives by. the bible is a book full of good intentions wrote by a few drunk guys sitting around a table 2000 years ago. i mean if it were true every single animal on the planet would be cross-bred. it's so false it's humerous. give it some serious thought. we as people just don't know, and that's the reason religions keep popping up left and right it's the uncertainty that people are uncomfortable with. and that is what is going to continue to complicate things for us by folllowing b.s. rules and regulations of life that don't allow other to enjoy theirs. think about this "religion" and think about how much less complicated the world would be with out it.


and don't tell me to get out of "your" country that you stole from a much more worthy occupant. love it for what it is and respect others rights to do the same. it's that simple.

You are free to believe as you wish. you are also free to do as you wish.... as long as it doesn't deny someone esle their rights or go against what is decided is right by the majority. the majority decides what is best based upon their morals and convictions. they then make laws to aid in governing this country. We as a majority have decided that gays should not get benefits (for the most part) and don't want them being married. the majority that decides what is acceptable and what is not does so based in part on religious beliefs. How can the few decide for us all? We don't want to deal with those that violate such basic ideals such as marriage = man + woman. we shouldn't be forced to accept everything anyone does because they like it. knowing that this is how this country was formed, and for the majority still operates, I would point out that any that believe otherwise should keep it to themselves or find a place that accomodates their needs. Mairrage is an institution developed under God. the benefits of a legally joined couple should not be degraded by likening them to the deviants that ignore God and do what they want. the unions recognized under God are between a man and a woman. who are you to decide that gays should get the same rights and benefits. what they do in their bedrooms is their business, but when they attampt to force acceptance of their behaviors on everyone else it violates our rights. Pound each other in the rear all you want, but don't expect us to give you benefits because of it.

o.k. but this thread isn't about gays getting married.......

also show me some #'s on this majority rules theory of yours. it's clear you're just arguing to argue.

The thread is about gays getting benefits, which is an integral part of marriage. I have nothing to prove. The fact that for over 200 years this country has conducted itself in a cerain manner proves what the majority believes and practices.
I don't argue just to argue, but seeing as how gays and any other minority group feel the need to bring so much attention to themselves in so many arenas, I feel the need to express my opinion and support.
You being so ready to accept any thing anyone does should have no problem with me doing what I want.
I signed the boycot against Ford and will no longer support them as long as they support gays. And I encourage others to do the same.

i'm not gonna buy 'dat 'der truck 'cause thet support gays.


GIT-R-DUN.  ::)

Oh, fellas lets go fet our nails done shall we? And then we can stock up on K.Y., get our weekly aids tests and apply for benefits together.

Doing nothing is doing something. If you don't believe in something you need to stand up and be counted. Don't let the few scream loud enough to be mistaken for the majority. They'll ruin the world.

Let me first say this. I have been to Israel, (Thanks Uncle Sam) Via the US Navy. The Bible is not written by a bunch of drunks. That my friend was the Star Spangle Banner. When studied you will find the Bible to be so much more complex than you will ever realize. Your comment was that it was a book of good intentions that is full of errors and falses.  Mr. Bible Scholar educate me on the false and errors with in this book, please take me serious. I have seen the evidence of the presence of Jesus that my friend only many have read in books. There is something that overcame this old sinner when you lay hands on the artifacts of that era. I can tell you on any given day who I was then and who I am now today because of it.   You asked what the difference was between Allah, Jesus and Buddha. Let me tell you. You can go to the tombs of Allah and Buddha and still find their Remains. Have you ever heard the phrase “the tomb is Empty” The Tomb of Jesus is Empty, you can still go there this very day and see it.  That is why we celebrate Easter. Not because of some furry little rabbit and Easter eggs it is because Jesus Christ was Raised on the 3rd day. Fact! Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ there is no Christianity. It is the Hope and Faith you have in The Savior that he is coming back for his People. Jesus Christ a sinless man died and became SIN for the world. Only out of the Love that he has for us. I often ponder what this world would be like if that day didn’t happen. Not certain of your knowledge of the Bible but if Jesus was not sacrificed then we’d more than likely would still be living under the Law of the Old Testament, rather than the grace and mercy of the New Testament. Simply put, The New Testament is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Based on a couple other comments you seem to know your history pretty well, allow me to further your history lesson with trues.
In 1492 Christopher Columbus set sail Westward from Spain and forever changed the course of the world history. The modern world has seemed to forget the true motivation of his voyage. A study of his life shows that Christopher Columbus was a man who loved the Scriptures. He found his motivation from them for instance here is one verse from the Bible that he particularly used as motivation Mathew 24-14 and the gospel if the kingdom shall be preached in all of the world for a witness into all nations and then shall the end come.   This was very important to him. It is certainly true that some Europeans who followed Columbus to the New World mistreated the native Americans. In fact the Catholic Priest Bartholomew de Las Casas, was adamant in rebuking the conquistadors for their unchristian like behavior. Relationships between the settlers and the Indians were complicated at times, realize however that those who sought out to Christianize the Indians generally treated them far more humanely than the conquistadors. The History goes so much deeper for instance in 1620 the pilgrims drafted our nations first self-governing document called the Mayflower compact. In the Document the Pilgrims clearly stated that they came to the New World to Glorify God and to advance the Christian Faith.  Look at the Declaration of Independence, it was based on Christian ideas and viewpoints. The liberties it granted to citizens were understood to come directly from the GOD of the Bible.
We need to take a look at a bigger picture. It becomes clear as we witness attacks on both Christopher Columbus and the Pledge of Allegiance that the real target is Western Civilization and in some cases Christianity its self. There is an all out assault now on the Christian Community in the country, We fail to teach our school children the fundamentals of literature such as science, history. 20% of high school graduates are functional illiterates; we are unable to maintain even a resemblance of order in most urban schools, which day by day resemble happy hour in Beirut. But we can sure protect our Kids from GOD and hearing Gods word in school. The perception now is that the Constitution requires that we purge all religion from the public square.  CAN I GET A WITNESS CAUSE I AM GET'n R DONE

Amen Brother Chuck !

Educate me on why you feel that believing in God and the son on God, Jesus... limits me by any sort of the mean of having an original thought or therefore a creative one.

Another A Men.
Chuck Your right on very well said. Their are many gods but only one true GOD. One day every knee shall bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD. The bible even speaks against men loving men. I just can't see why a man would want to kiss another man (YUCK) with all the beautiful women in the world.

Exactly Right here are a few examples, in fact if we did live under the Law of the Old Testiment this is the law: pay close attention the verse 13 It is also Prophesied in 2nd Timothy:
2Ti 3:1   This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2   For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3   Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4   Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
 The Following verses' follow up with the above quote, pay particular attention to Verse 13.
Lev 20:9   For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him.
Lev 20:10   And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Lev 20:11   And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Lev 20:12   And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Lev 20:13   If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Lev 20:14   And if a man take a wife and her mother, it [is] wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
Lev 20:15   And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
Lev 20:16   And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Lev 20:17   And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it [is] a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
Lev 20:18   And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
Lev 20:19   And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.
Lev 20:20   And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.
Lev 20:21   And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it [is] an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.
Lev 20:22   Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
Lev 20:23   And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
Lev 20:24   But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

It is in my opinion that the harest thing for someone to accept Christ over is this, we all like Tangiable things, things that we can lay hands on,grab a hold of and become familiar with. you can not reach out and hold the Hand of God or Jesus in a physical sense as did the women who grabbed the hem of Jesus's garment.( I'll explain that story later). For it is by Faith only that we do what we do

Just an uneducated guess, but im guessing that either there sits someone atop corporate ford motor company who lives this very controversial lifestyle and uses a big cloud of smoke to support it, or its just that, CONTROVERSY, sells and attracts attention. Either way it can be used as a very lucrative advertising campaign. It seems to be getting enough attention just on this site, imagine the rest of the world. But hey, whatever works!! My personal opinion on homosexuality "To each his own".

I thought the bible teaches love.  Hilter used the same views people in this post are saying about gays to try to get rid of all the jews. I think anyone who is spouting hate against gay's sould go back and read their bible. Also the ten commandments were written be jews before there was Christianity. Back then it was judism or idol worshipers. America was founded by people looking for religious freedom. My family came here running from the ovens. People please think before spouting hate in a public forum.
         Mama Grizz

The bible does teach love.... and discipline, and obedience, and worship of the one and only God. and those that spout off about freedom and acceptance need to take a look at their own persucution of those exercising their freedom of speech and religious views. Just because we are a free country doesn't mean that we can exist without laws, norms, or morays. Just because a few do it doesn't make it right, or mean that the majority has to embrace it. If the arguement is to let gays do what they want then fine, as long as it stays in their bedroom I say leave them to answer for their sins on judgement day. But we shouldn't have to deal with it or honor it with legitimacy or benefits. You can't compare the majority of the US population to Hitler just because they with to continue living in the US the way our founding father intended. we don't have to, nor should we, give in to minority deviants that want their deplorable practices forced on the unwanting masses.  I don't tell you that you have to believe in God, although I would like you to make it to Heavan to worship with me, so how can you tell me to follow the ways of the lost?

Mama Grizz I mean you No disrespect, with that being said:
OK I did what you said Mama Gizz I went back and read this part
Lev 20:13   If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. how much more plain jane does it need to be.I think that that is pretty good reading. You brought up another good point
Lets dwell into a History Lesson for a second or longer,
 During the reign of Caesar Augustus, a new religion appeared in the Roman Empire that would have an enormous impact on the subsequent history of Western civilization.  This new religion, Christianity, spread so rapidly that within four centuries it would become the dominant religion throughout much of the Empire.

And yet the origins of the Christian faith are amazingly humble.  The religion began in a backwards Roman province known as Judea, and its founder was a carpenter from Nazareth named Jesus.  At the age of thirty, this obscure fellow began preaching throughout Judea and within a matter of three years, he was arrested on charges of trying to make himself King of the  Jews.  He was crucified around 30 A.D. by the Roman governor of the province, Pontius Pilate, at the urging of influential Jews.  

The teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, while representing a natural evolution within Jewish thought, were actually quite radical.  Jesus preached a doctrine of selfless love that is best captured in what has come to be known as the golden rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you.":  He also claimed to be the Messiah---the savior promised to the Jewish people by the prophets---and it was this claim that got him into such hot water with Jewish and Roman authorities.

Although Jesus managed to attract huge crowds wherever he went to preach, his crucifixion in 30 AD seemingly marked the failure of his attempts to reform Judaism.  His death so terrified his followers that the even his most intimate disciples fled rather than face persecution themselves.  According to tradition, however, something rather remarkable happened on the Sunday following the crucifixion of Jesus.  It is reported that he rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples.  The resurrection was taken by the disciples of Jesus as a sign that he is indeed the promised Messiah and inflamed them with new faith and courage.
II.  The Spread of The Christian Faith

Not long after Jesus reported rose from the dead, his disciples began to preach his message throughout Judea with mixed results.  Then a Jewish rabbi from Tarsus named Paul (or Saul) suddenly had a conversion on the road to Damascus while on his way to persecute the Christian community there.  After this he became the most active and dynamic missionary for the new faith.   Beginning with the Jews themselves, he gradually began preaching to gentiles (non-Jews) throughout the empire.  His travels took him to such important cities as Galatia, Athens, Corinth and Ephesus.   In 62 AD he was arrested by Jewish authorities on the charge of blasphemy and treason.  Turned over the Roman authorities, he was taken to Rome, where for two years he awaited trial.  During this time he managed to preach the Christian message to large numbers of Romans (he may even have encountered the Stoic philosopher Seneca at this time).  He was put to death during the reign of Nero in 62 A.D.

In some ways Paul is even more important to the spread of Christianity than Jesus himself was.  Remember:  there were no texts written yet about the life and teachings of Jesus.  Paul's numerous epistles, therefore, became a primary source of information about Christianity to men and women throughout the Empire.  Unlike the rest of the Apostles, who were simple illiterate men, Paul was also highly educated, had a great command of the Greek language and a highly cultivated writing style---all of which helped him greatly in his missionary activities.  His primary importance in the history of Christianity is that he took what was essentially a small fringe element within Judaism and turned it into an international religion with Churches established throughout the Roman Empire.

TIME LINE:
3 BC   Birth of Jesus of Nazareth in Bethlehem
30 AD   Death of Jesus of Nazareth
37   Conversion of Paul of Tarsus
65   Death of Paul of Tarsus
177   Martyrs of Lyons
202, 235, 250, 257   General Persecutions
303-312   Persecutions of Diocletian
311   Edict of Toleration (Galarius)
312   Constantine's Victory on the Milvian Bridge
313   Edict of Milan (Constantine)
325   Council of Nicaea
386 AD   Conversion of St. Augustine
410   Fall of Rome to Alaric
430   Death of Augustine
476   Fall of the Roman Empire in the West

From the very beginning of the history of the Church, the disciples of Jesus were subject to persistent persecution---first from the Jews, then from the pagans, and finally, in an even more systematic and ruthless way, by the government of  the Empire itself.  The reasons for this hostility towards Christianity are threefold:  (1) Christianity, like Judaism, is a religion that is essentially intolerant of other religious faiths and practices.  The early Christian missionaries were not content that people worshipped Christ alongside other pagan deities; they demanded the exclusive worship of Christ alone.  The vehement attacks of the early Christians against all pagan deities and rites served only to increase the hostility of these pagans towards the Christians.  (2) From the perspective of Roman authorities, the refusal of the early Christians to worship the divinity of the emperor could only seem like a blatant act of treason, since emperor-worship was viewed as an essential way to maintain unity throughout such a vast and heterogeneous empire.  Those who refused to worship the Emperor were thus viewed as enemies of the state and had to be persecuted.  The refusal of Christians to serve in the Roman army only increase the suspicion of Roman authorities these Christian were disloyal to the Empire.  (3) The early Christians were often accused unjustly by their pagan counterparts of many absurd crimes based upon misunderstandings that these pagans had about Christian beliefs and practices.  Among the accusations raised against Christians were that they were atheists (because they did not take part in traditional forms of worship), that they practiced incest (a misunderstanding about the love that Christian "brothers" and "sisters" were supposed to have for one another) and that they were cannibals (because they consumed the body and blood of Christ).  

Bravo..Well Said

Hey Bigd, my intentions were to respond to a post from Cain. I must have done something wrong since it didn't show up. I was out of town from my last post until now which gave me time to catch up on all the drama. Judging from your responses it seems we may have touched a nerve. Is it time to come out or are YOU arguing just to argue? In my opinion you come across as an idiot. Is that enough of a personalized statement to qualify as a big boy? And no I wasn't drunk sitting around a fire when I came to that conclusion. I love my fellow christians so does that mean I'm entitled to extra benefits or do I have to engage in something immoral  or unatural to qualify for them? I usually don't resort to name calling but when someone demeans my god,his teachings or the beliefs this country was founded on then they get what they deserve. Do me a favor. Don't direct any more comments towards me like the " make your own statements like a big boy "  comment and I in turn will not address you. Based on your posts I personally don't think we could have a civilized debate, so I will be a "Big Boy" and step aside. Oh yeah, Cain for president and Chuck Norris for vice president.

What I find detestable is the naive  Jesus freaks who donate millions and millions of dollars to the church which  in turns pay off the ex choir boys who were molested by the pervert priests and ministers.

Why is it that most people who push their religion on others are so unhappy themselves? They are usually  simple minded folks who are easily manipulated.

Ford is not offering "Special" benefits, they are offering equal benefits. They also see a good marketing strategy, because they know Gay people are more affluent and have a much stronger buying power since they have a higher disposable income. The reason for this is because gay people do not breed uncontrollably as do the majority of the uneducated, lower income population.
When was the last time you saw a rainbow sticker in a trailer park?

Just my opinion.. :-)

Jesus Freak maybe and I will take that as a compliment, once again I will say that it is better than the alternative my life as many who share the belief in Jesus have their lives in order. Nieve!!, Me!! Not Hardley friend, there are many that may be dooped into something but you dont have to be a Jesus Freak to be conded out of anything, That alterboy Garbage you brought up is kinda labling all Christians as pedalfiles.  ???Careful friend is where I am going to leave that. It is unfortuate  that the Catholic church sustain a terriable black eye that IT did, but sin has no boundries it only take one slip up and sin nature will over come anyone.  What is SIN, per the Bible it is anything that is done outside of Gods word, Just like the traffic Laws here in Florida you can not drive with out breaking a few laws, that does not make it right by any means...Enter in Forgivness and repenting.
 HEBREWs 8:12
Do you guilt trip about your past? If so listen: “Their Sins… will I remember no more.” Is GOD forgetful? Hardly, He does however choose not to remember our sins! When you choose otherwise, you question HIS forgiveness, declare your standards to be higher than HIS, allow the enemy to bring you into condemnation; and forfeit the confidence need to pray for and receive what GOD has for you.

When you rehearse your past failures, (the little voice) you not only keep them alive, you empower them. What you keep on deposit you’re more likely to withdraw and act on in that hour of weakness. Just as nobody knows when a dormant volcano will erupt, you can’t predict when an unresolved issue will resurface turning your words into hot coals and your actions into a blaze of destruction. Only by Forgiving yourself, and others can you truly break the hold that past has over you and be able to get on with your life.

     Shame is not a blessing; it’s a weight Jesus carried for you on the cross. Set it down and walk away. You have a right to do so because GOD promised, ”As far as the East is from the West, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.”  (Psalms 103:12)  Anytime the Devil brings up your past it’s because A) He hopes that you will ignorant for the truth; B) he fears your future; C) Satan wants to rob you of Gods best.

 Well you are probably asking yourself “ what should I do then?” Look to the Cross, refuse to discuss it further and keep moving forward. 

 
gay people do not breed uncontrollably as do the majority of the uneducated, lower income population. so this is your idea of birth control then. ??? and you are calling me Nieve :D

It is in my opinion that the harest thing for someone to except Christ over is this, we all like Tangiable things, things that we can lay hands on,grab a hold of and become familiar with. you can not reach out and hold the Hand of God or Jesus in a physical sense as did the women who grabbed the hem of Jesus's garment.( I'll explain that story later). For it is by Faith only that we do what we do

is this except-as in exception or acceptance.  Was this a Freudian slip? And please give more verses of the bible-we might be able to have the whole book on this thread.

problem fixed...thanks for point out that, I never said I was perfect. The Bible verses that are used are references, someone said to go back and read the Bible. just like the manual for your Quad the Bible is the Manual for Life.

i dont have as much  knowledge of the bible as many of you. but i do know this paul says christ died for our sins-period. not some but all. to say we are found in sin is to say his sacrifice on the cross wasnt good enough. we were made PERFECT by his blood.

HEB 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death.

i'm sorry guys but my god is a god of love and he has made me perfect through the sacrifice and blood of jesus christ.

Well said....
GREY I have a new found respect for you, even if you still drive a chevrolet.

thanks chuck. ditto on your comment.

the Bible is a best seller book.  For me, it's just like any book I read, any news I watch, any b.s. politician that speaks and any movie I see- I take from it and form my own opinion.  I'm not going to live my daily life according to laws and beliefs that were thought up 2000 yrs ago-some but not all.  The world has evolved slightly since the days of these beliefs/scriptures, if you can't see this, you are blind or being misled.  Finally, quoting scriptures from the Bible is not an original or creative thought-it was already thought about and written down.  So,
to answer your question, I'm not to sure why you limited to not have an original or creative thought.

I just wanted to say that I also feel that, only HOMO'S drive FYORDS. Pun intended.

THAT WAS INTELLIGENT

Here is another verse that you so diligently dont like and one that we all have problem with
 
1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  


 1John 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 


 1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Come on lighten up, that was pretty darn funny. Even funnier if I had spelled (FJORD) correctly the first post. Maybe if you had a visual it would make sense. Now that's sick. ;)

what part should I take lightly the fact the My Employer FORD is being bashed or The My Savior is Being Bashed.

(http://img41.echo.cx/img41/5425/m460900660835ua.jpg)

Sorry..... but I could not resist  ;D

ROFL :D :D

Chuck, I was not inferring that because Ford is your employer you should lighten, up or that you should lighten with your religious views. I was simply inserting a little humor into what has become a heated thread.  :o
P.S. Chuck Norris drives a DODGE if I'm not mistaken.

In large when repsonding to posts in type you lack the ability to express emotions except through smileys and the use of Capital letters. 

Well to lighten up this thread even more, I work for GM, who at this time does not support gay marriage-anyone boycotting Ford-I'm sure I can get you hooked up with a salesman up front and get a boycotting Ford discount!!

Geez, Do you always need everything spelled out for you. I thought Smileys and Capitalizing let you the reader use your imagination.
P.S. I would'nt be criticizing the spelling and context of other folks replys if I were you until after you run your replys through a spell checker or something similar, unless you know of some scripture that would exempt you from having to do so. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

You completely missed my point all together , when I used the term "you" it is descriptive as to the person typing the response not to use it as a personal attack

Even though-uh oh-no it can't be

G gay M marriage-OH MY!!

All right already, Mea Culpa Mea Culpa. I'm goin ridin,  whether I like it or not so there. :P

P.S. Chuck Norris (Ranger Walker) originally drove a CHEVY until they refused to sponsor grants for people with the alternative lifestyles so he switched sides. ::) gotta love those smileys.

Holy Crap, all this rambling has brought my post up to 11, I think I'll stick around awhile.

My God teaches love of all living things.  I am not God, therefore I have NO authority to judge ANYONE for ANY reason.  That is His/Her job. 

WELL SAID

agreed!!

has this thread finally come to an End?

I'm hoping so-thank God!

anybody can quote a book. also anybody can follow directions. it takes a half a brain and pants full of balls to think outside the box. it seems kind of foolish to jump so hole heartedly into something so unproven. i can point at an empty hole and say it was jesus's tomb also but some one has already beat me to it. you can't possibly belive that noah had first built a big enough boat to house two of every animal by himself, and if you do have an imagination on the wild side and buy that then how about that guy going around and gathering up all these critters? o.k. all that went down as the book said. so now we have a globe full of inbred animals, c'mon man smell the foldgers. that's just one there are literaly hundreds of stories in the bible that are equally ridiculous.


i like how everyone is saying they are just following there example their "forfathers" set when this country was "founded". truth be known when it was "founded" in many ways it was killed. so you are following examples set by people who came and stole and killed and simply made way for there own, with reckless disregaurd to the land or it's current occupants, yeah sounds like  great role models. so lets try a new approach and live and let live.

some of you seem very adament about beliving this old book, good for you i cannot base my life on 2000 year old propaganda. i'm sure we'd all get along in person so please don't let my belifes affect your view on me as a person as i donot hold it againt any of you.

cableguy thanks for verifying what i already suspected.

I mentioned earlier that I was there! I saw what I have only read in the Bible and just like you I could understand where someone who might not have been as blessed as myself could  formulate the same opinion as you, I agree that many of the accounts from the Bible are miracles in themselves
without giving them consideration are you limiting GODS abilty? He is Omnipresent and omnipotent(all Knowing)
Now You obviously have missed several key points with your last statement, especially those regarding our forefathers and Chritopher Columbus.. let review
I have a Book called "ONE NATION UNDER GOD" I would like to send to you on the creditabilty that you will read it with an open mind. setting aside differences.   

BigD, I did say I would step aside like a 'Big Boy' and asked that you not direct anymore statements towards me as I would not towards you. Well judging from your last sentence the person that  you had read theses posts for you must have left that part out. I knowing what your stand is and the way you try to belittle people and there beliefs, could not tolerate you for more than a minute so as far as you saying we all could get along in person is wrong when it comes to me personally. Had you been a 'BIG BOY' and left me out as I suggested I would have left this topic alone but appearently you can't leave well enough alone. So THANK YOU for endorsing my original insult. Now,can we drop it or is that againt your beliefs?

2 things come to mind from the book....
"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged.."
"Don't worry about the splinter in your brother's eye, when you have a plank in your own.."

 ;D

It also teaches to help others come to know God and repent from their sinful ways. Following what God has already said and acted upon is not judging someone, it is following God's example. Therefore attempting this country from turning into a modern day Sodom and Gomorah woudl please God not upset him for  "judging" someone. There is a parable (my knowledge is not as vast as Chuck_Norris') in that a master gives each of his servants some gold coins before he goes away. upon his return he asks for his gold. two of the servants invested the gold and brought back more than they were originally given, which pleased the master. the third told his master that he burried the coins and then gave back the same amount. the master was displeased with the third telling him that he was to go with what he had and bring back more.  I tell this knowing that some of you non-believers will try to twist it into something that it's not with the intent of relaying the true meaning. The servants are like the followers of God and the master like God. the valuable coins are like the precious words of God. the first two shared the words of God and brought mor followers to know his grace, while the third did nothing with the words of salvation. Attempting to write the wrong someone does is not judging, it is trying to save them through the blood of Jesus that they may come to God. I will not sit silently and bury my coins, I plan on investing in as many people as I can for their benefit and for the glory of God. If I can do this by pointing out that some people are going against God's wishes in an attempt to bring worship to God, save the people sinning, or strengthen the resolve of other believers and hopefully encourage them to share God's wishes with others I will do so at every opportunity. God sent angels to destroy two large cities for their participation in homosexuality. I strongly encourage everyone to remove any support from a company that gives benefits to people living that kind of lifestyle.  It is apparent that many will try to distort the text of the Bible to try and make a point, but you can't twist a few words to you benefit while ignoring all the rest that contradict what you are trying to say. Saying that we should accept homosexuals by saying that we shouldn't "judge" others is a weak argument at best. Anyone that wants to use the Bible for reference should pay attention to its true meaning and consider its full content before doing so. a good example is  Chuck_Norris. He obviously has ample knowledge and understanding of what the book says and means. Way to go Chuck. It's good to have people like you around. Keep telling the truth brother !

I humbly thank you for the kind words cain73, however it is not what I do with the Word it is what the Word does through me.Mat 10:20   For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you  Big B I will not force anything upon you,I will offer you a gift that was freely given unto me. you have displayed the lack there of  rational knowledge in the area of our Countries founding and for the Bible. I have presented to you an opportunity to broaden you knowledge for correction at no cost to you, the though of someone going to Hell is unfathomable( by no means am I condeming nor judging you)  I will through the Grace of God preach the Word he has so freely given unto me to others so that they may Live. What is the difference between me pointing out the procedure on the service manual of a quad and pointing out a procedure in the service manual of Life. They are both Directions to ascertain a specific goal. Without Jesus your Spirit is Broken before God.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
I the midst of writting this a good point was brought to my attenion by Honda328i Now think about this...as we debate this issue amongst ourselves there were people who were face to face with Jesus and did not believe, ever hear the term doubting Thomas? where do you think that originated from?
For Jesus told Thomas (A disciple)to touch the wounds on his hands for him to believe. with that being said must you feel his Nail scared hands to believe?

Update.....

Following a meeting with a group of Ford dealers on June 5, AFA has suspended its boycott of Ford Motor Company until December 1, 2005.  In the meeting, the dealers asked for time to see if the concerns raised by AFA in their boycott announcement could be addressed by them in cooperation with officials from Ford Motor Company.

AFA felt that the dealers were making a good faith effort and agreed to accept their request.  Therefore, the suspension request was accepted by AFA.  During the remaining period AFA will work with the dealers in attempting to resolve our differences.

We urge those supporting the boycott to disregard the boycott until December 1, 2005.


And the chior sang "Hallelujah!"

Dang...now I don't have to go out and buy a Ford....

thanks for the offer chuck but i'm gonna pass there's just to many stories in the bible that are in no way true. like i said before the book was well intentioned but there are just to many religions. whos right whos wrong. whos god whos not.*headspins*. i'll stick to my somewhat decent ways and hopefully it'll all work out in the end. please belive i wasn't trying to "belittle" anyone or their belifes it's just a point of view and everybodys is a little different. i live life to love it and i'll get the most out of it i can, some people may not agree with alot of stuff i do but i don't agree with alot of stuff they do.


cable guy, i know we'd all get along in person. i can sell anything. ;)

It doesn't matter what's right or wrong, truth or lies, just what you believe. I will still buy a Ford until they let me down again......and maybe again ;D

No Hard Feelings. allow me to close with this last bit of scripture in order that you might have a change of heart before it is to late
Revelation 3:3   Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
in laymans terms take just a second and blink your eyes...that is how fast that lord will call up his Children once the trumpet has sounded and the rest will be here through the tribulation

Just wondering Chuck, you quote Revelations a book basically written about the Roman tyranny and depicted the Roman Leaders as Demons, used for a religion, Christianity, that was pretty much the only one against Roman rule because it said everyone was equal including slaves unlike the Roman leaders who believed there God or God's looked only upon them. The question is "Do you think Revelations will happen in our lifetime or are you just being prepared?"

chuck, it's not "to late" for me i'm o.k. with my stand point. it's really quite simple, stay a decent person and don't let things like jeleousy and greed get in the way. accept people for who they are and if you do a wrong make every effort to make it right. and it'll all work out.


i just really don't see the point in trying to make a lifestyle out of a book when some one around the globe has a different one. basicly to me i t's like trying to understand something we are incapable of comprehending because we just don't know. i am complacent with not knowing because i know how good of a person i am. most people are not o.k. with not knowing and use religion as sort of a spiritual band aid for the soul, so you feel like you know what's going to happen. in short accept people for who they are as long as they aren't hurting any one leave 'em be.


on a lighter note, anyone have any good home made solvents for sore legs? i went riding all F'n day on sunday and my legs still feel like they are going into contractions, man it hurts.

One only has to read a newspaper or listen to a newscast in order to see Bible prophecy being fulfilled. There have been more prophecies fulfilled in the twentieth century than in any other time in church history. I believe there is a great reason for this. I believe that the time is rapidly approaching for the Lord Jesus Christ to return to this earth and take the kingdoms of this world for Himself.
Will it happen in our time? Only God Knows.

I?m delighted that some can say that they are good people and live their lives well.  For me, I?m not so good, in fact I?m very wicked and evil, just so you know.  I have broken all of the Ten Commandments and have stolen, cheated, lied and hurt many people.  If left to myself I am very capable of mass destruction.  Frankly, I also don?t have faith in organized religions, which are man-made and have misled thousands.  This is why I can kneel before a Saviour and say have mercy on me, pour blood on me, I have no other hope.  Just being honest here, and hope that someone else can relate.

yeppers I can relate,  The most important thing is
Anyone reading this thread or if we are out riding together, if you have questions about what and or where you may spend eternity, PM me, I will not Embarasse you, The Gift of Salvation is Free , all you have to do is ask

dont worry he did-2000 years ago. he had mercy on you, forgave you and made you perfect with one sacrifice. nothing you do can gain or lose your salvation. its not yours to lose or earn. its his to give to whom he pleases.

What honda328I said!!!!!!

I doubt you have broken ALL TEN but if so its nice to know we have a murderer on here to talk to.
Thou shalt not KILL???

I just got out of jail last month  ;D

way to go.

The 20th Century also had the advent of the TV, Radio and the Internet. This allowed us to share even the most minute and insignificant information. It's easy to believe Revelations is coming if you sort thru all this information. The problem is History repeats itself and these signs have been there before and including the time the Apocalypse was written. I think we forget these are stories are to guide us, not to believe that they're factual. We came from Adam and Eve? Then that means we are inbreeds. According to the bible humans have been on the Earth for 6000 years. Are the archeologist lying to us? Maybe the truth is incomprehensible or just too boring, only the people who were there at that time know the truth. BigP in my opinion has it right when he said "It's really quite simple, stay a decent person and don't let things like jealousy and greed get in the way. Accept people for who they are and if you do wrong make every effort to make it right and it'll all work out." I'm not knocking religion or it's followers, I'm not that brash and would also be a hypocrite if I did. I feel that people cannot explain the problems they encounter so they turn to the "Good Book" for answers, but the book is outdated and altered. Christians need to follow the philosphy of Jesus, not a book written by followers and changed by countless generations to fit their agenda. Believing in God is one thing, believing that the Bible or any other religious books in the world is the truth is another. My .02 cents

TRX- i htink that was more like 03 cents. ;D ;D

Faith plays an important role in religion. you don't get to see or hold what you believe in , but know it's there just the same. It's unfortunate that many have tried to pervert the word of God for their own gain, but that doesn't mean that the word is flawed, just those that sought to manipulate it. You have to educate yourself to a certain degree. Just like when some said hte Bible teaches not to judge, that doesn't mean walk through life with your eyes closed and accept everything that everyone does. that example shows that the word can be misinterpreted or outright manipulated by some. trx350 - therer are many people that feel the way you do that as long as you lead a good life you are OK for eternity. Unfortunately this is not the case. In the Bible it says our is a jealous God and that we are to worship him. The reason Jesus died on the cross was to pay for our sins since we can never be good enough to "earn" our way into Heavan. We as humans are riddled with sin. God sent his only son to pay for our debts, since we can't pay for it ourselves. This is under the new covenant and explained in the New Testamant. There are a lot of good people that will not like where they are going to spend eternity due to their lack of faith and obedience. God gives us so much, it's kind of arrogant to think we immediately get everlasting life without any show of faith, love, worship, or obedience for all he does for us.
I forget the philosopher's name (think it was Thomas Aquinas - help me out if you know it folks),but he argued the Onthological question about if God really exists. He was a believer, in fact he was a Saint, and told people that doubted they had nothing to lose. even if we came from nothing - the Big Bang (quite ridiculous when you think about it) you had nothing to lose by following and worshiping God. If you worshiped and followed and were wrong, then no problem as you lived a good life.  If you were right you gained everlasting life in Heavan. If you didn't worsihp/follow and and were wrong, you got eternal Hell. Is that worth betting on?
This thread has evolved to a religious debate, but some of these issues would be better discussed without instigators in the way. You question Adam ad Eve as well as the question of the age of Earth itself.... there are answers to these questions. I don't claim to know them all but I know some and could point you in the right direction for answers to others if you would like. Feel free to contact me, and I'm sure Chuck feels the same way, as we would be happy to help.

I don't think we're all that different. Your path to God is just not as convoluted as my own. I believe God knows who is good and who is bad and when I die then I will be OK with God. If not then I'm having one "Hell" of a party. Pun intended. It's either that or I'm worm food.

did someone say party?

Anselm is the one is question, I find it rather odd how lightly going to Hell is being taken.

I've read some on this Benedictine monk who I think was one of the founders of scholasticism. Though I respect his work, to me he doesn't answer the question if God exists or not. He was an archbishop after all. Seems a little one-sided.  No one really knows if God is real, we may want to believe he/she/it is real, maybe because of life experiences or were raised into it. I think we would all like to believe that there is a God, that there is something here for us now and in the afterlife. Who really wants to imagine when we die we go to "nothingness". The point is you either believe or don't. Who is right? We won't know till were dead. Again my .02 cents and for those I put to sleep in this post I apologize ;D

TRX_350 - I don't doubt that you are a great person, but like the saying goes doing nothing is doing something. In a religious application not choosing God is choosing the alternative. There are many fantastic people in this world, but some of them will not make it to Heaven becasue they did not make a definite choice and commitment, leaving it to being judged by their non-offensive acts. We can't earn our way into Heaven, we simply have to accept the one that has already paid for our sins. We as humans are born into sin and are all guilty of committing sins. There are no perfect humans walking the face of the Earth today. barring divine birth and a life totally free of sin, including worshiping God, there is only 1 way to Heaven. Being a good peron will often get you respect here on Earth, but does not secure a sought after place in eternity.

Thanks for the warning, but I am out to have fun when I ride, not be lectured , villified, told of my future or brainwashed.
Keep your beliefs to yourself, like you tell others to do when you say "keep it in the bedroom".

Well I say "Keep it in your church". "What you want to do in your own church is your business, you should not flaunt your religion in front of our children!"

Just my 10%

HEY GAYDIRT,
JUST CURIOUS.
 DO YOU DRIVE A FORD!

Chuck ...........   where are you going with this ??? I have been reading this website for the past 7 mos. All you do is try to shove the religion stuff down everybodys throat !! Accept people for who thy are !! Do you actually think that if wer're not in CHURCH 24/7 & reading the BIBLE on our time off we are all sinners??? NO !! I am not a perfect person & yes I have been guilty of some of the 9 commandments ::)

But each & every day I enjoy life w/my loving wife & are beautiful family !!!!! AND sleep well @ nite !!!  If GOD is your saviour , what happened when you Rapped your " Raptor" on that oak tree @ Rodman ???  I was HOME SAFE !! No scratches , bruises, cuts ,etc..........

Allright gery350, now you've gone too far with the Ford comment  ;D

Actually I'm a jerk, but thanks for the praise. I was born free from sin until I had to kill off my twin brother for attention.............no wait, that was a movie  :)  On a more serious note there are people who believe and those who don't. Freedom of religion is what we have in the USA. Our choice. I understand what you are trying to say, but you can't save everyone. Can you imagine Heaven if everyone got in? I think I'd rather go to Hell.

I drive a Mustang GT Convertible, Ford Ranger, Mercury Grand Marquis and a Mazda Pickup.

thanks. just wondering. :D

 ;D haha dad dont get ahead of yourself, n dont worry chevy.

Somebody has identity issues :o

haha this is some funny schit

Funny stuff :D

Who is gaydirt?  this is too funny!!

Chuck ...........   where are you going with this ??? I have been reading this website for the past 7 mos. All you do is try to shove the religion stuff down everybodys throat !! Accept people for who thy are !! Do you actually think that if wer're not in CHURCH 24/7 & reading the BIBLE on our time off we are all sinners??? NO !! I am not a perfect person & yes I have been guilty of some of the 9 commandments ::)

But each & every day I enjoy life w/my loving wife & are beautiful family !!!!! AND sleep well @ nite !!!  If GOD is your saviour , what happened when you Rapped your " Raptor" on that oak tree @ Rodman ???  I was HOME SAFE !! No scratches , bruises, cuts ,etc..........

DRWalnut,

If you do not like want Chuck has to say... Dont read it! And the same goes to you to gaydirt. You must ride your brakes

it cud be 2 old member that r messin wit us cuz its both gayrider and gay dirts first posts basicaly. if its not then o well, ask 4 the purple truck :-\ ill take black thank u very much lol

Hey gay's, I checked out your website and it's kickin'!! 8)

it's probally someone messing around. let's say it's not. now they just saw big daddys ignorant ass post. don't you relize that this website revolves around it's users?don't you know the site wouldn't be here if new people weren't joining everyday? who do you think contributes to the tech forums and the classified sections? new members dickhead, this isn't a discriminating website so you need to check yourself and leave your comments in the trailer park.

its my opinion, Ha Ha and if you dont like it Dont read it.. Reminder this is a Family site. So watch what you post  ****head!! ;D

Hey Big Daddy, Touch a nerve or something   ???  ???
I'm not downin chuck as a person , or being a fine law abbiding citizen  ::)  But before you go off and start calling people " roaches" , think before you type  :D  :D


Remember ..............  it's a family website,  sound familiar ???


DRWalnut !!   ( thats to funny )

well you know what they say "ignorance is bliss" have fun teaching your family how to discriminate and be prejudice. your redneck mentality is embarssing, the least you can do is make a somewhat inteligent argument to validate your point like others have. instead you bust out with this "gays go home" message ........... brilliant.

how funny big daddy had to go back and EAT his words.

Very well put.  Most of us hope to teach our children to not be predjudice.  Tolerance and acceptance of other people and their views and opinions is what has made this country what it is today.  

While some beat the bible path to death.  Others could also claim the Constitution of the United States.  What is clear is that it is not our job to judge others.  

So many issues in the world like starving children and abused women.  Yet we sit here and waste energy on Ford and bash gay people.  Very shallow and to call it redneck would be an injustice to even that word.

Let's grow up and let people live their own lives.  It's not my place or anyone else's to judge what is right and wrong.  What may be right for one person may not be right for another.  

Yes, I remove what I said in anger. But I man enough to say it. Not like you gays  ;D ;D ;D

your sentance formation resembles that of a caveman. seriously take a spelling course or typing class or just stay of the internet do something man jeez.

Got the point across  :-*

not really and with the little smiley guy blowing kisses, apparenty at me i am really confused. ???

why don't you enlighten us as to what your point may have been since many of us probally missed any valid point you were trying to convey.

Open Discussion
Talk about whatever you like.

man it really sucks that you procreated.

only the nasty survive

I  sure  hope  this  aint  for  real.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/o4250/Thread20Hijacked.jpg)

Now the heads are spinning....too bad we all have different points of view. The bashing should stop now, unless you are too self rightious.... ;D

Thanks for watching today's Jerry Springer.  I can't wait for next weeks entertainment.  >:(

It'll probably be centered around somebody's narrow mind

Allow me to kick my soapbox off to the side for one minute before I get started. Nothing That I am getting ready to say is to be meant as a personal Attack. It is my intention that when and if we ride together that we will share something of common interest. Even more so, to be there when your riding partner is in need, whether stuck in the Mud, or more seriously bouncing of tree or being Ejected while engaged in a Sand drag as I found Myself. I am by no means better than anyone person here. Nor am I judging any particular person and if it sounds as such I am expressing my apologies ahead of time.
 However I am forever changed By the Blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Like it or not it is me. If nothing else is gained by the end of this thread, you will certainly know who the Christian Guy is. I know I don’t stand alone, We will as Christians Fight the Good Fight, and for all those who have read the Bible, then you know who has already won.
Where’s that soapbox now…
How many of you saw the Movie “The Passion”.  I did not go see it for 1 Reason I could not have stood silently and watch (all though replicated) my Savior Beaten
So many People Beaten up on the Christian Guy that must make you feel like a man.  I will stand up for the word of God because his son Jesus Christ hung on an Old rugged Cross-for me. I will stand with a sense of Morality. Homosexuality is not moral. Somebody provide me with proof otherwise. I find it Odd that someone does not have the intestinal Fortitude to stand up with their own screen name to refute the words that I have submitted. On the contrary produce a fake screen name in the efforts of a direct assault on me. Call my bluff…  We’ll check The IP address. Odd how Gaydirt or whoever you are has only 2 posts and they are both on this thread… let get real shall we? Answer me this Gay Dirt Explain the Moral issue I asked about earlier. It is Written in Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination
What part of wrong is not clear in that verse…? Is it wrong to Kill someone? Yep! is it wrong to lie cheat or steal? Yep! Is it wrong to have sex with a child? Yep!  So why is not wrong to be gay, if it is clearly written to be. As Big Daddy stated “ how do you explain to your innocent children the defilement of 2 men or to women kissing.  Let look at it in a deferent perspective. If your Service manual for whatever quad you own says do things in this particular order to accomplish whatever task you are doing are you going to follow it? Sure you are because you want to believe that the service manual is correct.  And not written by a bunch of drunks as someone indicated the Bible was.  Therefore you’ll get to ride your quad again when the procedure is finished. It could be as simple as changing your oil, if you are instructed to put that oil filter in a certain way and you don’t then you suffer the repercussion.  Suck it up and admit what is wrong is wrong and that’s the bottom line. Why is it the Human race only that engages in such activity? Because, we have the ability to choose. God gave us the age of accountability. I accept people for who they are.  It is not a matter of bashing it is a sense of values and morality.
Someone said,  ” History Repeats its self” you couldn’t be more right friend, why do you think I preach that Jesus is coming back. Or better know as the Second Coming of Jesus.
“We came from Adam and Eve? Then that means we are inbreeds.” Another misunderstanding Adam and Eve were created by God separately they were not Brother and Sister, so much for that theory. Seriously though Eve was created by the use of one of Adams ribs. If you are into questioning God why did he use a Rib and not some other bones or another pile of dirt as he did Adam. He made wo-man(help-mate) Equal onto the man. God is the head of the Church and Jesus is the son of God over man therefore man is the head of is household and God holds the man responsible for all that occurs within his control. The on going battle between the science of Evolution and Creation is not an argument for which we can solve here. Similar to Brand loyalties

DRWalum:
You asked me why I shove this is someone’s face. This is why
Mathew 24-14 and the gospel if the kingdom shall be preached in all of the world for a witness into all nations and then shall the end come.
The pendulum swings both ways. If you don’t like it don’t watch
Now onto something a little more personal, seems you are a great judge of character and you know all about me and I know so little about you, doesn’t seem quite fair does it? I guess I need to clear things up a bit and see how well you really know me
A. I don’t own a Raptor
B. I did not hit a tree at Rodman Dam
Gotta put you in Check. I actually feel quite blessed to even be here debating the topic with all of you
Because coming off my (watch this DRWalum)  YFZ450 at speeds nearly 70+MPH while engaged in a sand drag as I did, may have not survived or been as fortunate.  Let alone get back on their quad that just ejected them with as little injury as I sustained. Don’t ride faster than your Guardian Angle can fly. I guess mine was riding a Honda. LOL. you can believe that the Yamaha is faster than the Honda if you want to or realize that it is the rider. You can believe or disbelieve you have that choice .In closing I hate the Sin not the Sinner as Jesus Did, for the sinner is Forgiven when repenting but the sin has left its mark with 3 nails inflicting wounds in His Hands and Feet and a thorn filled crown

well put, Chuck. Thank you

Well  said  Chuck. ;)   ;D

Jesus Christ you write a lot Chuck! Ever think of writing a book? :) I'm pretty sure you weren't around when Christ was alive. How do you know that he died for us? He may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Jews got the Roman Po Po to put a beatdown on the man. He's the original Rodney King, but innocent. His father was basically a jerk who couldn't control his own creations so he sent his son to take the fall. That's the kind of father who should be in jail. Instead we praise him. Yeah, I know I'm probably going to Hell now, but if I know God I can just repent and get on his good side. Gotta love such a forgiving religion.

Anyways the reason homosexuality is not in any mainstream religion because that religion would be dead in a lifetime of it's followers.

reffer to may early posts for the answers that you seek, if you are obviously that blind then there is nothing I can say or do to change other wise. I will respect your views as I would expect the same. the topic is begining to talk in circles in a debate that even great scholars are challenged over on a daily basis. I dont have all the answers, never said I did. However if you are comfortable in your choice then carry on.

Please excuse me for buttin back in here but I would like to ask you a question Chuck_Norris, because youi sound preety well versed in the scripture. I've asked several other learned people before and they would only say "You just gotta believe". Here"s my question... If Cain was banished for killin Able and that only left Cain and his Mom and Pop.... then how is it that when Cain next visited the scripture he had a Wife and Family?
Seriously I aint bein a smartazz because actually I do believe in a Supreme Being, just not neccessarily what organized religion would have us believe. I persoanally lean towards the Intelligent Creation Theory. Thanx.

Sorry about the punctuation etc. brains faster than my fingers. Hopefully you get the gist.

Some people amaze me. They say things like keep religion in the church, but want homosexuality in the public eye. I say religion belongs in the public forum as it is the basis for our country. they say don't judge yet they condemn for preaching the Gospel to others are we are instructed by our Creator. They gripe about closed minds, yet use stereotypical names like redneck, and refuse to open theirs to the truth of Salvation. It's no wonder the world is in such a pathetic state.

were all inbred along with every single animal on the face of the earth.

oh and we all should be christian it is the newest major religion fabricated by man. i hope this clears things up for ya, and don't be gay or you will be viewed in "god's" eyes as the same dirt bag that has fantasies about nailing little kids.

sorry i couldn't resist.

 :o

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Jerry Springer show is on again?

Mr. Bones , have  mercy.  Bring  this  to  a  end. ::)  Now  back  to  quads  and  rideing  ya  fat  heads !!! ;D ;D

Dude, fighting on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics even if you win , your still retarded.

Finally...I see the light!!

Oh, and in your timeline, you forgot the Crusades.."Killing in the name of...."

no ones gonna convince anyone of anything. so all i can say is
       

              "die post die"

"die THREAD die" maybe?  ???

just messing.

but this country was founded on the basis of freedom...of speech and the pursuit of happiness...freedom from religeous persecution....freedom to live your life and not to impose your thoughts on others...freedom of expression...

Well said Budman
    Mama Grizz ;D

Did he say" his father was basically a jerk" ???????????????????????    Now that's showing respect for someones religious beliefs. Real class act.

Budman that goes both ways about not imposing your thoughts and wants on others. Why should America have to give benefits to gays when most of us are no homos? And the freedom of religion was intended to allow us to practice our religions, not bar us from them. Pursuit of happiness yes... within the norms dictated by society. You are not free to be a practiving pedophile even if you think it will bring you happiness are you? It has always been a society based upon Christian beliefs and morals. The founding fathers did not want to force religion on anyone, but religion is an integral part of our national structure. It wasn't incorporated into our financial, judicial, administrative, and executive institutions on accident. It was meant to allow us to practice without restraint or persecution, that is a far cry from what today's people try to twist it into. Religious freedom yes, but in a pro-religion way. Not to rob us of our Christian background.

OK I'll probly get it for saying this but too bad.
Anyone who walks around with sh!1 on your stick is asking to die a slow horrible death from a virus. I do believe homosexual activity is immoral, inhumane and how about GROSS! NEVER EVER HAVE I LOOK AT ANOTHER GUYS HAIRY ARS AND SAID OH BABY.  BBLLLEEECCCCHHHHH!!!
 :P  That has noting to do with my Christian upbringing. It comes with common sense.

If sex stinks like S#&t and is a pain in ths a&& then you're doing it wrong !   ;D
Like I said for any non-believers out there - homosexuality goes against everything even the evolutionary ideology. Maladaptive traits are extinguished while adaptive traits are selected and propogated to ensure the survival of the species. being a rump ranger is NOT an adaptive trait. Adopting such a thing would end human kind.

   Cain73  Im  with  you  on  that  even  though  you  do  ride  a  sled. ;D

Hey, I'm not the one who turned this into a bashing contest. I haven't imposed MY views at all. I am just sick and tired of all the crap dealt out to those who don't share y'alls "Christian " views.  Why should America have given rights to blacks? This is not my view, but at some time in our "Christian" american values, this was unheard of. And yes, this was a right wing republican view. The old guard who was behind that were Christian too. And Who dictates the "Norms" the far right? And since you are calling ALL gays pedophiles, that, my friend is far beyond a Christian value. No one is trying to rob you of your beliefs....just don't try to push them on me. And just for your information, I am a christian too...but  not the pushy kind. I believe that  you have the right to your opinion, but no right to bash Jews, Muslims, Catholics, or gays here, just because they don't subscribe to your version.  Remember, Christ hates the sin, but loves the sinner...in all of us. That's it, I'm done with this thread.

Well let me just say that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. The water is their for the horese taking. The Bible (KJV) has been around for many years and have been read by many and it is still here today and it will be here till the end of time. For anyone to believe in the one and only true GOD must also believe the bible fully and not partly. I have my falts and I try to live the best I can it's not easy and if you are a Christian you know what I mean. A Christian is someone who is Christ like. OK let me get back on track if you can read the Bible with an open mind God will speak to your heart. Nobody here on this earth has all the answers.

Jesus didn't die on the cross just to die. He died to pay the price for our sins past present and future.

Someone said for Mr Bones to put a stop to this thred I ask not to stop it. you know what it's about and how it got started so don't read it nobody will bash you for not reading it. The Bible says to spread the seed and that has been done. Scripture has been given even with the place to find it and many has read it and I'm sure has got some to thinking about Heaven and Hell both are real like it or not. I think this has been a great topic and I believe God will use this thred to speak to someone because it is being read all over the world.

Jesus said You are either for me or against me. I just want to say that I stand for Christ the Savior of the world.

America One Nation Under God. Still the best country in the world.

Folks if we don't stand for something we'll fall for anything.

Oh Yea not only did Jesus die but he arose and is alive today and will be forever more.

Thanks to all who gave so that I could have my freedom of speach may God bless you all.

We're all entitled to our opinions, but please make sure to not mis-quote me to attack my point of view. I didn't say that all gays are pedophiles. In fact statistics would show that most pedophiles are not homosexuals at all. I was simply showing that not everything that anyone likes means that it's ok to do. you commented on the right to pursue happiness, I illuminated the fact that even such an innate right has limitations. What if a pedophile wanted to molest kids becasue it was his "right" to pursue happiness? It still wouldn't be ok or accepted by society. Society has the right to dictate what is acceptable. Pedophilia is not acceptable. To most of the American population neither is homosexuality.
You're right that Christ loves the sinner not the sin. However we will all answer for all that we have done on Earth whether it is good or bad. Even those of us that have accepted Jesus and are going to Heaven are guilty of sin. The difference is that we have made a committment to try to not sin in the future. We all falter from time to time, but leading a lifestyle that is strictly prohibited by teachings inthe Bible evedent by the destruction of 2 populated cities. Budman You profess your Christian beliefs and that is great, but part of being a Christian is enlightening others with the Word of God. We aren't supposed to sit by and watch those that don't know God purchase an eternity in hell for themselves.
You don't have to accept Christianity or any religion for that matter, but you can't take away our right to believe and to practice. You also don't have to like all of the norms and morays of society, but that doesn't mean that  society is supposed to conform to the beliefs outside the structured and accepted realm of socially preferred behaviors.  Gays attempting to equate themselves to married couples and get the same benefits is going against the norms and morays set by society. They are the ones fighting. If they choose a gay lifestyle I don't think anyone will invade their homes to find out. Bringing it to the public eye is their doing, not some middle aged, white male, Christian, Republican conspiracy.
Normalcy is achieved by a certain amount of conformity to coincide with the majority on major issues of  what is acceptable behavior. a few deviants can't say "we like it so you have to accept it" to the whole of society. from a scientific point of view society also employs the evolutionary model in that is selects adaptive traits to ensure its survival. Homosexuality does not meet the criterea to be considered beneficial to the survival of our species or our societal structure.

It is a controversial issue but I also ask that moderators not shut down this thread. It's an adult discussion with intelligent people on both sides, just with differing opinions. No one is forced to read or participate.
I do find it curious that some of those that were pressing the "rights" issue have hoped for this thread to die or be shut down. What about the freedom of speech?
Moderators - I understand that this is a public and family friendly oriented forum and respect that. The remark about freedom of speech was to make a point. A few members may want to type vulgar, socially unacceptable comments on this site from time to time. We rest assured the Moderators will do their jobs and monitor things and edit as necessary. It goes to show that even here we have rights, but can't step on someone else's. Even here there are rules and norms to be followed. Why is it no one is complaining or fighting about that? Just as with society - certain things are not acceptable as dictated by the norms put in place by the majority.  ;D
It's a horse of a different color, but I feel vindicated none the less.

Amen

I stand for Jesus and everything that Jesus taught, and still teaches us to believe.

As a Moderator, I do not want to engage in this debate, however as a Christian I must stand for my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
I do not think this thread will be deleted. I agree, It's a debate between Adults. If it offends you, don't read it.

                             Corey

I AM STUDYING THIS OUT FOR YOU AND I WLL HAVE AN ANSWER SOON

well a pedophile has a victim as were a gay relation is between two consenting adults.............no victim. 'cmon people you can't possibly compare the two that is rediculous!!!!


i noticed no one touched on the noah and his arc comment i made, or the comment about all of us coming from two people  ::). that alone creates enough doubt for any one to take a step back and see the bible is full of fiction. is there an underlying story that might hold some truth? who knows but 90% is complete and total lies, don't be offended it is what it is.

i'm done with this thread it all goes round and round, direct questions get ignored and responed to with long winded sales pitches dodging the answer because there isn't one. best of luck to you all sorry if i pissed ya of ........... i'm out.


-brian

I can only speak for myself, but no I'm not mad at anyone. Like I said it's a controversial discussion amongst adults.
I want to make sure that I am clear on my reference to pedophiles. I didn't say it to say that being gay was a crime jpunishable by prison. I simply used the comparison to show that not all things that someone likes are ok just because they like them. another example is prostitution. a crime with no victim, but it's still unwanted by society and deemed a crime none the less. It is seen as immoral and harmful to society and not allowed (with the exception of Nevada). two consenting adults doing something they like can still be unwanted and unacceptable to society.
I don't have all the answers, and have never claimed to. You obviously possess a post-modern philosophy that questions the ontology of America and it's your right to possess it. you still need to acknowledge that it's contradictory to most Americans. the whole of the population can't be expected to conform to the whim of the few that engage in practices outside the norm of our societal foundation.

Prostitution unwanted by society? Now that's good humor ;D

Well you might like it and rent a little now ;) and then but as a whole yes it qualifies as unwanted.

Noah and  family with friends

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Just putting my two cents in:

  I have to agree with some that the bible is only a book, and if you choose to devote your life to believing everything that someone wrote hundreds of years ago, so-be-it.  But don't try to push it on the rest of the world.  The way you worship the bible is the way i worship my boyfriend...and if you ask me, any act of love, whether it be between a man and woman, a man and a man or a woman and a woman, is the most beautiful thing in the world.  If you are so close minded to believe that all gay people are going to hell, then I guess all I can say is I feel sorry for you.  If loving another person is a sin, we are all going to hell.  I would just rather spend my time on this Earth happy and in love rather than wasting it living by how a book tells me to.  I don't preach my faggotry on the world, and I would appreciate it if the world didn't preach it's bible-humping on me.  To each his own....

- FagRider

Amazing... gaydirt and fagrider..hmmmm real people or simply those that can't make a point on their own using fake names to try to do so. it appears that some that lack Christian morals also lack better things to do with their time.  But I'll make and intelligent reply to such an obvious attempt an an inflammatory remark. We are not puching Christianity on anyone. We offer answers to those that seek them. We offer to educate others on God's word and hopefully lead them to his grace and salvation. If you don't want it fine don't take it. But homosexuals attempting to achieve social acceptance, equality in benfits, etc. in a society that doen's want them or to supply the things they want by forcing society to accept their lifestyles as simply "alternative" and not reprehensible, sinful, and to many downright disgusting is indeed trying to force your "faggotry" on us. We aren't closed minded, we are dedicated to the truth and apparently generate discord and resentment for it from non-believers. Maybe it is you with the clsoed mind. When have you given church or a "normal" sexual desire a chance?

well said  ;) and God Bless You

And all on Christ Jesus said AMEN
Well said
Once you were dead, doomed forever because of your many sins.  You used to live just like the rest of the world, full of sin, obeying Satan, the mighty prince of the power of the air. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.  All of us used to live that way, following the passions and desires of our evil nature. We were born with an evil nature, and we were under God's anger just like everyone else.
 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so very much,  that even while we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's special favor that you have been saved!)  For he raised us from the dead along with Christ, and we are seated with him in the heavenly realms-all because we are one with Christ Jesus.  And so God can always point to us as examples of the incredible wealth of his favor and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us through Christ Jesus.
 God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.  Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.  For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so that we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Chuck, I don't know you personally and you may be a cool person and all, but you come across as a street corner, sandwich-board doomsday lunatic. If you believe in Jesus that is fine but you are not going to change anyone's mind but shoving it down their throat. 

Sounds like you guys have talked to Jesus personally. Have him give me a call. There's something I need to ask.

I dont like Ford.  Chevy all the way.

SO STANDING UP FOR SOMETHING MORALY STRAIGHT CONSIDERS ME A LUNATIC.
IN THE WORDS OF VANSANT"I WOULD RATHER BE HATED FOR WHO I AM ,THAN LOVED FOR WHO I AM NOT!"

bumblemoose, if you dont like what Chuck as to say! dont read it... I personal like it and he can shove it down my throat all day.

 :o

you pervert  :-*

haahahahahahaahahahaha!

i couldn't help it man, remember we're all pigs anyway.

These pictures are of some of the worlds most sickest individuals...Jeffrey Dahmer
Homosexual Cannibal,known for raping little boys,and then eating them... second Charles Manson
Sixties cult leader responsible for the death or Sharon Tate.

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third: pee-wee-herman. Was arrested for ####ing off in a porn theatre. and number 4 is Mr.Rogers
Sure he seems nice...But whats up with that fricking world of make believe?????WARNING TO ALL PARENTS:Keep your kids away from this psychopathic,child molesting perv!!!!!!!!

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number 5 is bigb... guest why his screen name is bigb?

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guest why? i don't get it.



hahahahaahahahahaha, that is a funny pic though.

Boy needs a belt :)

big butt  ;D ;D hehehehe  :o just getting even

I will never understand why some people will argue over something they are obviously uneducated about.

What drama, I wish I had a violin.

When someone tries to defend homosexuality, for example, I will simply remind him or her that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you cain73 , however, regarding some of the other laws in Leviticus and Exodus and how to best follow them. To wit:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Leviticus 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as stated in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Leviticus 15:19-24). The problem is, how can I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Leviticus 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Canadians, but not Mexicans. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine says that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Leviticus 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?



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Just curious

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that it I moving to Texas :-\

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i have no problem with homos, but like bigdaddy said push your agenda somewhere else. change your logon crap and talk about atvs. that way when little kids get on the site us straight dads dont have to expalin what "gay"is  to our little boys and girls.. oh and by the way i  am perfect the blood of crist made me perfect.

Bigb is ok in my book... I am not Gay or Anti gay, Just protecting my son from different view.

See how some can attempt to twist the words to say what they want and ignore the overall meaning of the book itself?
I did offer advice. My intent was to have an intelligent conversation expressing my views.however, I never have nor will I claim to have all the answers to the Bible. How vain would that be? To think that we could know all that God knows, or to assume that we are entitled to every answer that we might ask. He owes us nothing. He created us, loves us, cares for us, even sent his only Son to die for us. And in return he gets self righteous sinners spouting doubt and discontent? You need to do more than look for a few passages that might loosely be misconstrued by you to allow yourself the unwarranted self reassurance that your lifestyle is OK to our Lord.
I shall indulge you in a small way:
1. Would you worry about the human neighbors born of and engaged in sin or what God wants? Should you smite them? No. Vengance is mine sayeth the Lord.
2. the reference is made as to indentured servants which is a practice that was even performed much later in time. it was not to keep a people down, but to allow them to provide for themselves by serving others. After a certain amount of time they were to go free without debu unless they chose to stay.In this day and age we are under the New Covenant and should act accordingly. Where does it mention indentured servants or slavery in The New Testament?
3. If you can't figure it our on your own, simply practice abstinence. I am sure God would prefer you select that over homosexuality. If you can't remember try using a calander.
4. Why not reference LEV. 25:35 where it says if someone becomes poor that you should help him out without making him pay interest? Did you only want to pull out small portions that might be misleading when viewed alone? Again we are under the New Testament. Maybe you shold look into it. It basicall sets forth the terms for a new set of laws by which we are to live.
5. How about we let God deal with sinners shall we? I don't go to San Diego and burn it to the ground liek Sodom and Gomorah do I? God dealing with sinners is one thing, attempting to be a good Christian and lead sinners to God, redemption and everlasting life is a totally different ordeal.
6. Under the Old Testament we were not to eat shellfish or pork. It's a good thing they have been made clean and ok for us to eat under the New Testament. I don't recall the passage, but someone had recurring dreams in the Bible about animals and he would not kill and eat them. Eventually God asked why he would not partake of what God had supplied for him. If God says it's ok to eat, I'm free to eat it.
You should be more concerned with what you put in your mouth.
7. Lev. 21:23 ...."he must not go near the curtain and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy" If God said not to walk down the street unless you do it backwards, you won't see my fact anymore. Again you search for a pasage in the Old Covenant to try to make a point. Back then there were different rules and humans were to obey them. Why are you so worried about minute things when you have yet to accept Jesus to save your very soul. Some fundamental things jin the Bible have remained our duties into the New Covenant some have been changed by Jesus. How can you focus onsomething that no longer applies when you neglect the vary notion of religious responsibilities?
This has become tiresome  so let me lump 8,9, adn 10 together with 7 and ask that you look into the New Testament and accept Jesus in to your life insead of attempting to generate discord with you sarcasm.
I haven't asked how you could possibly find someone of the same gender attractive or how you could possibly live without God in you life or how you would have loved living in Sodom before God had the angels destroy it. why do you spend your time looking for some rinforcement that you are living the way you should be? I have no problem withwhat you or other do inthe privacy of your bed rooms, but I don't have to approve of those same disgusting things either. I will do as I suggested to you and let God judge you. If you don't mind why should I? I know where my eternal soul is goig when I die. Do you know where yours is going? If you're Ok with that then so am I. If however you wish to achieve peace and everlasting life as well as the happiness of serving our Creator, Lord and Savior, then please don't hesitate to ask me. Again I don't claim to know everything, but I know the answer to that and would be happy to point you in the right direction.
If you want detailed info on the history of mankind and the previous Covenant with God, then maybe you should ask Chuck_Norris or someone that has studied the Bible as a scholar, as I have not. I have formally studied psychology, and would be willing to lend a hand in that capacity if you should like help in dealing with some of the issues in your life.
Just like in society at large, the people (majority) here think what you do in your room is your business, but don't want you pushing your preference for homosexuality upon us. So maybe you should take gery350's advice. It's amazing how people can act out against other and when a response is rendered they claim the attack is coming from the respondents. We didn't come to you and sk your sexual preference, simply don't tell us. But don't expect us as the majority in this forum or in society to accept you deviant ways just because you find them satisfying.

A place for you to stay on vacation GayDirt

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.CFPage?appID=105&cmid=LN_IN_GLORD

Well said Cain i completely agree. 

There is  nothing I can add to that. VERY WELL SAID CAIN....you hit just about everythng I could. It would do go good to go into theroy of the Bible unless there is a willing party
to receive HIS word. I am by Far a Bible Scholar but God will only hold me responsible for the knowledge I do have and use according to HIS will. I am also donre with this topic, If you want answers about the bible you need to open it and read. IF YOU WANT TO WALK ON WATER, YOU FIRST HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE BOAT

The Bible does not specifically say who Cain’s wife was.  The only possible answer was that she was his sister or niece or great-niece, etc.  The Bible does not say how old Cain was when he killed Abel (Genesis 4: 8 ).  Since they were both farmers, they were likely both full-grown adults, possibly with families of their own.  Adam and Eve had surely had more children than just Cain and Abel at the time Abel was killed - they definitely had many more children later (Genesis 5:4).  The fact that Cain was scared for his own life after he killed Abel (Genesis 4:14) indicates that there were likely many other children and perhaps even grandchildren or great-grandchildren of Adam and Eve at that time.  Cain's wife (Genesis 4:17) was a daughter or granddaughter of Adam and Eve.

 

Since Adam and Eve were the first (and only) human beings, their children would have no other choice than to intermarry.  God did not forbid inter-family marriage until much later when there was enough people that intermarriage was not necessary (Leviticus 18:6-18).  The reason that incest often results in genetic abnormalities in children is that when two people of similar genetics (i.e. a brother and sister) have children – genetic defects are far more likely to result because both parents had the same defects themselves.  When people from different families have children – it is highly unlikely that both parents will have the same genetic defects.  The human genetic code has become increasingly “polluted” over the centuries as genetic defects are multiplied, amplified, and passed down from generation to generation.  Adam and Eve did not have any genetic defects, so that enabled them and the first few generations of their descendants to have a far greater quality of health than we do now.  Adam and Eve’s children had few, if any, genetic defects.  As a result, it was safe for them to intermarry.

Thank you, good answer or at least in depth.

Like I said. It started with Adam and Eve.... Not Adam and Steve!

Let’s prove the Bible is true and that we are nearing the end of the last generation before Christ returns.

1.      The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3.  Prophecy fulfilled.  This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948.  That’s 1 out of 1.
   Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later.  For the last 2500 years, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel.  Nevertheless, the Bible showed that the day would come when the nation of Israel would be reborn.
   The rebirth of Israel was a key sign, indicating we had entered a time period called the latter days.  It was the beginning of a countdown leading to the Tribulation and culminating with the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus immediately after.  Along with the fulfillment of this crucial event are over 360 prophecies that would all come together, so we might recognize that the Tribulation is very close at hand.  Twenty nine of them are listed here.
   Yet the Bible foretells that most people would not believe these things, despite the overwhelming evidence of the fulfillment of the signs from God’s Word and the incredible rebirth of Israel happening exactly as predicted.  As people refused to believe the flood was coming in Noah’s time, so people today willingly choose to disregard the signs of the times.

2.      Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8.  Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948.  That’s 2 out of 2.
   Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.  On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People’s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration.  At exactly 4pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum.  The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read.  All stood, and the scroll was adopted.  The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void.  Members of the People’s Council signed the proclamation.  David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, “The State of Israel is established.  This meeting is ended.”  Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once.  It happened exactly as predicted.  At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave.  President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel.  The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under armed attack by the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Iraqis.

3.      The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days.  It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8.  Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948.  That’s 3 out of 3.
   Note: It is estimated that this prophecy was made around 580 B.C.  Approximately 2500 years later, in 1948, this prophecy was fulfilled. 

4.      Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) “out of the nations.”-Ezek 38:8.  Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948.  That’s 4 out of 4.
   Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the “United Nations” approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.  This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled.  Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations.  Israel was “brought forth out of the nations”—the children of Israel from many nations were returning to their ancient homeland.

5.      Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19.  This happened just as predicted in 1967.  That’s 5 out of 5.
   Note: The Bible gives us two methods so we would know we are in the last generation.  One is by Israel’s rebirth.  The other, by a precise line of events that would all come together at one time.  Israel was reborn on May 14th, 1948.  The Bible indicates that from Israel’s rebirth a generation would not pass till all be fulfilled.  A Jewish generation is figured from the age of 20 to 60 (1968).  We are not setting any date, but it seems clear that we are living in that generation now.

6.      The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus.  Prophecy fulfilled.  That’s 6 out of 6.
   Note: God will spew them out.  Many church leaders and people that call themselves a Christian and are sure they are saved will not be going to heaven.  The Bible tells us—you have acquired wealth, but your true condition is wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked and you don’t know it-Rev 3:14-22.  This is today’s church.  Most churches preach very little Scripture, but lots of worldly stories.  Many sing a great deal, but put very little emphasis on repentance, obeying, serving, and fearing God, the fruits of the Spirit, Bible prophecy, water baptism by immersion, and studying your Bible faithfully every day.  Many are only entertainment centers that teach what their members want to hear.  People will not endure sound doctrine-2 Tim 4:3.  They turn away from the truth-2 Tim 4:4.  Many church members are so lukewarm or dead, they don’t even bring their Bibles with them to the house of God.  Many ministers think this is the best church age ever, yet the Bible clearly shows it is the worst and most deceived.

       7.       The Bible gives us over 50 descriptions about the people at the time of the end.  Here are some:
         A.

 Some would depart from the faith and go into devil worship-1 Tim 4:1.  This is perfect.  Reportedly in Great Britain alone, there are about 35,000 professing witches.
B.  People would have no conscience-1 Tim 4:1,2.
C.   People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3; Jude 18.
D.   People would become lovers of themselves-2 Tim 3:1,2.  Remember the TV commercials—“I do it for me”? 
E.  People would be disobeying their parents-2 Tim 3:1,2.
F.   People would be grateful for nothing-2 Tim 3:1,2.
G.   Homosexuality would increase-Lk 17:28,30; ref Gen 19:5; Ro 1:24,26,27. H.  People would be without self-control in sex-2 Tim 3:1,2,6; Rev 9:21, Lk 17:28,30; Jude 7.  Is this not the great sex generation?
I.    People would be untrustworthy, friends would betray friends-2 Tim 3:1-3.
J.


 People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4.  This is true.  Shall we go on a picnic, watch football, or sleep.  Church?—we can go another time.  Our American motto “In God we trust” has become a joke.  Remember, these were all predicted centuries ago as part of the signs that we are at the time of the end.
K.  People would be taking drugs-Rev 9:21.  The Greek word for sorceries, in Rev 9:21, means pharmaceuticals or drugs.  God’s Word is 100% right on every one.  That’s 7 out of 7.  How could you have any doubts at this point?
  Note: Fifty years ago, many people never locked their doors at night.  People could leave their keys in their car.  Merchants could leave their merchandise on the sidewalk without guards, and there was no profanity on television, radio, or in the movies.  One of the biggest problems in public school was gum chewing.  Those days are long gone.
 

8.      There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12.  This prophecy is true.  That’s 8 out of 8.
   Note: When in our history would anyone have ever thought this possible?  It is estimated that the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and Russia (as of the year 2000) could kill every living thing on earth 6 times over.

9.      There would be an increase in earthquakes-Mt 24:2,3,7; Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11.  This prophecy is correct.  That’s 9 out of 9.
   Note: One might think as the earth settled over a period of time that earthquakes would decrease like ripples in the water.  Yet the Bible indicates the opposite is true. In this last generation, research from the U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center reveals that major earthquakes of a magnitude of 6.0 or higher have remained relatively constant during this century.  However, the total number of earthquakes in recent years appear to be rising.  For example, it was reported that in 1986, the total number of earthquakes was 12,718.  In l990, it was 16,612.  In 1994, it was 19,371.  This will culminate during the Battle of Armageddon, AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.  At that time, there will be an earthquake that will shake the world.  The cities of the nations will fall.  Every island will flee away.

10.    At the time of the end, there would be famines in various places.  Food shortages would still exist in some places-Mt 24:3,4,7; ref Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11.  This prophecy is accurate.  That’s 10 out of 10.
   Note: In this last generation, many are starving in the world.  Poverty and crop failure, due to severe weather, drought, or insect infestation, are often a factor.  Many people are born, live, and die on the streets, in alleyways, or railroad stations in some countries of the world.  Multitudes live in mud houses with grass or palm branches for a roof or have no place to live at all.  Billions have no electricity.  In some nations, good drinking water is almost nonexistent.  Senseless wars have left millions of people with no place to go.  Refugee camps exist in many places where people live under conditions that are almost indescribable.  They are hungry.
   One such person was asked, as I recall, “What would it take for you to consider yourself rich?”  His reply was, “I would consider myself rich, if I could have a roof over my head that did not leak, and if I could know what it is like to go to bed at night with a full stomach.”
   It has been estimated that 60,000,000 people a year die from starvation around the world.  This prophecy is accurate.

11.    The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10.  This prophecy is exact.  That’s 11 out of 11.
   Note: In this last generation, to our knowledge, the Gospel is being published (or is about to be published) in the primary language of every nation of the world or “among all nations.”  Yet when this prophecy was made, the possibility of such a thing would have seemed impossible.  There was no printing press or any means to do such a thing.  In addition to this, the Gospel should be available by short-wave radio to listeners anywhere in the world.  We have just reached the point that seemed impossible—11 perfect predictions—yet with God nothing is impossible.

12.    In the latter days when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16.  Incredible.  That’s 14 out of 14.
   Note: How could the Bible have foretold such a thing?  It told the location of this nation, facts about its military, and even the time period it would come to pass.  As was already said in Lk 24:25-O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN.  Certainly, at this point, even the biggest skeptic in the world can see that the Bible is true, there is a God, and we are very near the time of the end.

Here are just a few more prophecies briefly given, out of the 365 that exist, regarding this latter day generation.

13.    In the last days, people would be hoarding gold and silver.  True.  It began in the late 1970’s.

14.    There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth.  This nation would have an army of 200 million.  This is absolutely astounding.  It is estimated by some that the population of the entire world at the time of Christ was only about 200,000,000.  How then could the Bible have ever told the location of a nation and given such a figure as the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago?  China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure.

15.    The currency in Israel at the time of the end would be the shekel.  The currency had been the Israeli pound until June 1980, when it was changed to the shekel.  The Bible is flawless.

16.    There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire.  It would have a military capability.  This is a perfect description of the European Economic Community (the EEC), which is in the process right now of adopting the one-currency system for many of their member nations.  It is written, IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (these nations, which is now) SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM-Dan 2:44.

About 29 prophecies in 16 sets have been given, all perfect and all written centuries ago.  The chance of any person writing 29 perfect prophecies 2000 years into the future is not possible.  The Bible is the Word of God, and we have just proved it.  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  Repent and get baptized by full immersion.  Read and obey the Gospel.  God loves you.  He is not willing that any should perish.  The Rapture is close.  Most people are not ready and will not be taken.  However, “YOU” cannot say you did not know.  Know and understand, Mt 16:26-WHAT IS A MAN PROFITED, IF HE SHALL GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD, AND LOSE HIS OWN SOUL? OR WHAT SHALL A MAN GIVE IN EXCHANGE FOR HIS SOUL?

Unfortunately prophecies are much like statistics, a person can make statistics say whatever they want them to say and the person reading them can/will gleen whatever conclusion they prefer.
Just my 2 sense. I think I'm up to about a buck fifty 2 by now.

I can see now why you feel that way, but I prefer to think that the Earth will be here for future generations. Life is complicated and in my opinion and cannot be simplified by one book. If I saw life like the way you posted I would just lock myself indoors and only leave my house on Sunday for church. It's just too morbid for me. It's like getting the news that you only have 6 months to live from your Doctor. Nostradamus predicted things also, like the great fires in NY and they could be disputed. Maybe your right, maybe not, only God knows, but for now I will just keep looking towards a happier future, retiring in a cabin on a lake, fishing and riding my ATV.  :)

Chuck, I appreciate you taking the time to respond in an intelligent format. We may differ on some of our views, but you're cool in my book.

so god wants us to starve, then he's gonna destroy the world......right.

Chuck, your reasoning seems flawed. I really don't want to get into the subject because there is no point in arguing, but just looking at the first four points you are refering to the same event.

Then, I looked up the references you sighted and found them ambigous at best.

Example: "1.      The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again Isa 66:8"

ISA 66:8 says "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

This is just the first one on your list compared to the first reference, some have no corillation that I could make out.

Number 6 is just a matter of opinon
"6. The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus.  Prophecy fulfilled."

As for the rest, I will just quickly state that anyone that has ever taken a bio class will tell you that the earth has never and will never be geologically stable, homosexuality has been going on since the beginning of mankind and happens in the animal kingdom, there is less famine today than there was 2000 years ago, and people have been hoarding gold and silver for thousands of years.

Personally I need harder proof, but if it makes you happy more power to you.

Hey bumblemoose ,
Done your homework i see .
Not bad for an athiest. ;D
Preach on brother .

Jesus upbraided the people in His day, because they did not correctly understand, through the Scriptures, that it was the time when the Messiah should appear. It is the same today. Even though the Scriptures give us over 360 prophecies of events that would be in place showing that the Tribulation was approaching, people would still be going about business as usual as if nothing was about to take place. Most were blind and deceived in the days of Jesus as to the times that they were in. Most are blind and deceived today concerning the times that we are now in.
    Regarding the soon coming Tribulation, there are so many witnesses (or prophecies) that it is very near, so that we should lay aside every weight (every distraction that hinders us from wholeheartedly following the Lord).
    Lk 12:54-57-AND HE (Jesus) SAID ALSO TO THE PEOPLE, WHEN YE SEE A CLOUD RISE OUT OF THE WEST, STRAIGHTWAY YE SAY, THERE COMETH A SHOWER; AND SO IT IS.
    AND WHEN YE SEE THE SOUTH WIND BLOW, YE SAY, THERE WILL BE HEAT; AND IT COMETH TO PASS.
    YE HYPOCRITES, YE CAN DISCERN THE FACE OF THE SKY AND OF THE EARTH; BUT HOW IS IT THAT YE DO NOT DISCERN THIS TIME?
    YEA, AND WHY EVEN OF YOURSELVES JUDGE YE NOT WHAT IS RIGHT?
    Ro 3:3,4-FOR WHAT IF SOME DID NOT BELIEVE? SHALL THEIR UNBELIEF MAKE THE FAITH OF GOD WITHOUT EFFECT?
    GOD FORBID: YEA, LET GOD BE TRUE, BUT EVERY MAN A LIAR; AS IT IS WRITTEN, THAT THOU MIGHTEST BE JUSTIFIED IN THY SAYINGS, AND MIGHTEST OVERCOME WHEN THOU ART JUDGED.
    Heb 12:1-WHEREFORE SEEING WE ALSO ARE COMPASSED ABOUT WITH SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, LET US LAY ASIDE EVERY WEIGHT, AND THE SIN WHICH DOTH SO EASILY BESET US, AND LET US RUN WITH PATIENCE THE RACE THAT IS SET BEFORE US. Even though Heb 12:1 is not referring to the 360 plus prophecies, its advice would be good for all to follow.
    1 Cor 13:13-AND NOW ABIDETH FAITH, HOPE, CHARITY (or love), THESE THREE; BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY (or love).

2-WHY PARABLES?
    AND THE DISCIPLES CAME, AND SAID UNTO HIM, WHY SPEAKEST THOU UNTO THEM IN PARABLES? HE ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO THEM, BECAUSE IT IS GIVEN UNTO YOU TO KNOW THE MYSTERIES OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN. THEREFORE SPEAK I TO THEM IN PARABLES: BECAUSE THEY SEEING SEE NOT (they think they understand, but they do not); AND HEARING THEY HEAR NOT (they hear and think they perceive, but they do not), NEITHER DO THEY UNDERSTAND. FOR THIS PEOPLE’S HEART IS WAXED GROSS (or become calloused), AND THEIR EARS ARE DULL OF HEARING, AND THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM. BUT BLESSED ARE YOUR EYES, FOR THEY SEE: AND YOUR EARS, FOR THEY HEAR-Mt 13:10,11,13,15,16.
    So great is the blindness some people have toward the Gospel that the Scriptures tell us, BUT THOUGH HE HAD DONE SO MANY MIRACLES BEFORE THEM, YET THEY BELIEVED NOT ON HIM: THAT THE SAYING OF ESAIAS THE PROPHET MIGHT BE FULFILLED, WHICH HE SPAKE, LORD, WHO HATH BELIEVED OUR REPORT (or message)? AND TO WHOM HATH THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED? THEREFORE THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE, BECAUSE THAT ESAIAS SAID AGAIN, HE HATH BLINDED THEIR EYES, AND HARDENED THEIR HEART; THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, NOR UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM-Jn 12:37-40.
    Therefore, Jesus spoke in parables, so that those whose hearts were right toward God would understand, and those whose hearts were not right toward God would not understand. As it is written, AND SOME BELIEVED THE THINGS WHICH WERE SPOKEN, AND SOME BELIEVED NOT-Acts 28:24. Of those that do not understand, once again, the Scriptures give us these words, HEARING YE SHALL HEAR, AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND SEEING YE SHALL SEE, AND NOT PERCEIVE: FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE IS WAXED GROSS, AND THEIR EARS ARE DULL OF HEARING, AND THEIR EYES HAVE THEY CLOSED; LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM-Acts 28:24,26,27.

    The Scriptures tell of Jesus speaking to the people, BUT WITHOUT A PARABLE SPAKE HE NOT UNTO THEM (He did not say anything to them without using a parable-NIV)-Mk 4:34. As it is written, WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET, SAYING, I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS WHICH HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRET FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD-Mt 13:35. THE LEGS OF THE LAME ARE NOT EQUAL: SO IS A PARABLE IN THE MOUTH OF FOOLS-Pv 26:7. AS A THORN GOETH UP INTO THE HAND OF A DRUNKARD, SO IS A PARABLE IN THE MOUTH OF FOOLS-Pv 26:9. God’s Word further confirms, AND NONE OF THE WICKED SHALL UNDERSTAND-Dan 12:10.
    How can we understand the parables? As it is written, HOW THEN WILL YE KNOW ALL PARABLES?-Mk 4:13. Unto some it is given to know and understand these parables. As it is written, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL TEACH YOU-Lk 12:12; THE COMFORTER...HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS-Jn 14:26; BUT THE ANOINTING WHICH YE HAVE RECEIVED OF HIM ABIDETH IN YOU, AND YE NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: BUT AS THE SAME ANOINTING TEACHETH YOU OF ALL THINGS, AND IS TRUTH, AND IS NO LIE, AND EVEN AS IT HATH TAUGHT YOU, YE SHALL ABIDE IN HIM-1 Jn 2:27.
    It is written, UNITED IN LOVE, SO THAT THEY MAY HAVE THE FULL RICHES OF COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING-Col 2:2 NIV.

    The Bible gives another example of how people will not be able to understand the mysteries of the Scriptures, unless their heart is right toward God.
    THE LORD HAS BROUGHT OVER YOU A DEEP SLEEP: HE HAS SEALED YOUR EYES (THE PROPHETS); HE HAS COVERED YOUR HEADS (THE SEERS). FOR YOU THIS WHOLE VISION IS NOTHING BUT WORDS SEALED IN A SCROLL (or words of a book that is sealed). AND IF YOU GIVE THE SCROLL TO SOMEONE WHO CAN READ, AND SAY TO HIM, "READ THIS, PLEASE," HE WILL ANSWER, "I CAN'T; IT IS SEALED." OR IF YOU GIVE THE SCROLL TO SOMEONE WHO CANNOT READ, AND SAY, "READ THIS, PLEASE," HE WILL ANSWER, "I DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ." THE LORD SAYS: "THESE PEOPLE COME NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH AND HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME. THEIR WORSHIP OF ME IS MADE UP ONLY OF RULES TAUGHT BY MEN-Isa 29:10-13 NIV.
    Because their heart is not right toward God, they cannot understand the true meaning of the Scriptures. They cannot truly understand that if they do not receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior and obey the Gospel, they will perish. They may think they understand the light, but the light that they see is really darkness. For it is written, BUT IF THINE EYE BE EVIL, THY WHOLE BODY SHALL BE FULL OF DARKNESS. IF THEREFORE THE LIGHT THAT IS IN THEE BE DARKNESS, HOW GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS!-Mt 6:23. For HE THAT HATETH HIS BROTHER IS IN DARKNESS, AND WALKETH IN DARKNESS, AND KNOWETH NOT WHITHER HE GOETH (he does not know where he is going-NIV), BECAUSE THAT DARKNESS HATH BLINDED HIS EYES-1 Jn 2:11. People’s ways are right in their own eyes. As it is written, EVERY WAY OF A MAN IS RIGHT IN HIS OWN EYES-Pv 21:2. Consider a person that is fully persuaded he understands God’s truth (the Light), but he really does not. If he is positive that he is following the Light (Jesus), but is really following the darkness (Satan), then HOW GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS! The darkness in him is very, very great. He is walking in darkness (he is following Satan) but is totally unaware of it. He does not understand or believe that he will perish, because the darkness (or Satan) has blinded his eyes (or his understanding).
    When they hear God’s Word (which is the Seed), the fowls come and devour the Word. The Word of God becomes trodden down. They hear but do not understand, as the wicked one takes away the Word that was sown in their heart-ref Mt 13:4,19; Lk 8:5. But they do not understand even this.
    As the Lord says, THESE PEOPLE COME NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH AND HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME-Isa 29:13 NIV. How hard it is to reach the religious man that believes he is a good person and has done no wrong! How hard it is to reach the person that is positive he is saved, but is not.
    It is written, 1 Cor 2:14-BUT THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD: FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM (or he cannot understand them), BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. This depicts one that is arrogant, drawing conclusions that are not based upon truth. "Spiritually discerned" conveys that the natural man is incompetent. He is not equipped to operate in the realm of faith, neither does he seem able to truthfully examine the facts. He cannot recognize or correctly understand the things of the Spirit of God.
    There will be disagreements on very difficult passages regarding Bible prophecy among God’s servants, but there is still love and a childlikeness in searching God’s Word.
    Among those in darkness, many are sure they are right, but their love for God’s servants is often not as it should be. They are usually not childlike when receiving correction. There is confusion in their understanding of prophecy, though they cannot recognize it.
    The words of Jesus give us further understanding. It is written, Mt 11:25,26-AT THAT TIME JESUS ANSWERED AND SAID, I THANK THEE, O FATHER, LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, BECAUSE THOU HAST HID THESE THINGS FROM THE WISE AND PRUDENT (or learned), AND HAST REVEALED THEM UNTO BABES (or little children). EVEN SO (yes), FATHER: FOR SO IT SEEMED GOOD IN THY SIGHT (or this was your good pleasure-NIV). We see the words of Jesus as He says, I THANK THEE, O FATHER, LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, THAT THOU HAST HID THESE THINGS FROM THE WISE AND PRUDENT (or learned), AND HAST REVEALED THEM UNTO BABES: EVEN SO, FATHER; FOR SO IT SEEMED GOOD IN THY SIGHT-Lk 10:21.
    Lk 18:16-BUT JESUS CALLED THEM UNTO HIM, AND SAID, SUFFER LITTLE CHILDREN TO COME UNTO ME, AND FORBID THEM NOT (or do not hinder them): FOR OF SUCH IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD (or the kingdom of God belongs to such as these-NIV). Those that are humble and childlike to God’s Word will hear, understand, and receive God’s Word. The kingdom of God is made up of such as these.
    Those that are the children of God will hear and understand God’s Word; however, those that do not hear, believe, and understand do so because they do not belong to God. As it is written, Jn 8:46,47-IF I SAY (or tell) THE TRUTH, WHY DO YE NOT BELIEVE ME? HE THAT IS OF GOD (or belongs to God) HEARETH GOD'S WORDS: YE THEREFORE HEAR THEM NOT, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD (or you do not belong to God-NIV).
    Jn 18:37 NIV-FOR THIS I CAME INTO THE WORLD, TO TESTIFY TO THE TRUTH. EVERYONE ON THE SIDE OF TRUTH LISTENS TO ME." EVERY ONE THAT IS OF THE TRUTH HEARETH MY VOICE-KJV.
3-SOME SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND
To them, it is not given to know
These are fools
They are wicked
They are wise (or prideful)
They are prudent (or learned)
They have an evil eye
They hate their brother in Jesus
Their ways are right in their own eyes
They come to Jesus with their mouth
They honor Jesus with their lips
A stranger’s voice teaches them; though this can sound like the voice of God, it is the voice of deception
They see but see not: they think what they see is correct, but it isn’t, neither do they understand this
Their eyes have closed to the truth
He blinded their eyes
They see, but do not perceive
They hear but hear not: they think they hear correctly yet are wrong and do not understand this
Their ears are dull of hearing the voice of truth; instead, they hear another wrong voice (the voice of the devil) in their ears and in their mind but do not recognize or believe this
They hear, but do not understand
They shall not understand
They do not understand
They do not understand with their heart
They should not understand with their heart
They cannot read a parable with correct understanding
They are as one that cannot read the Bible with correct understanding
They are as a lame man whose legs are not equal
They are as a drunkard when a thorn goes up into his hand
To these a parable is as words that are sealed
Their body is full of darkness
They think light is in them, but it is really darkness
The darkness is great
They are in darkness
They walk in darkness
They do not know they are in darkness
The darkness blinds or deceives them
Their heart is waxed gross
Their heart is calloused
He hardened their heart
Their heart is far from Jesus
They are not converted
They should not be converted
They are not healed
They should not be healed
They saw the miracles but still believed not
They could not believe
Some believed not
Esaias (Isaiah) said, Who hath believed our report?
God hid these things from them

4-SOME SHALL UNDERSTAND
To you, it is given to know
God has revealed these things unto babes
These have the love of God from which are the full riches of understanding
They understand
The Holy Ghost shall teach you
The Comforter shall teach you
The Anointing teaches you
Blessed are your eyes
Your eyes see correctly
They see with their eyes
Blessed are your ears
Your ears hear correctly
They hear with their ears
They become converted
They become healed
They abide in Jesus
They believe
    It is written, 1 PET 5:5-LIKEWISE, YE YOUNGER, SUBMIT YOURSELVES UNTO THE ELDER. YEA, ALL OF YOU BE SUBJECT ONE TO ANOTHER, AND BE CLOTHED WITH HUMILITY: FOR GOD RESISTETH THE PROUD, AND GIVETH GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.

    ACTS 13:16-THEN PAUL STOOD UP, AND BECKONING WITH HIS HAND SAID, MEN OF ISRAEL, AND YE THAT FEAR GOD, GIVE AUDIENCE.
    ACTS 13:26-MEN AND BRETHREN, CHILDREN OF THE STOCK OF ABRAHAM, AND WHOSOEVER AMONG YOU FEARETH GOD, TO YOU IS THE WORD OF THIS SALVATION SENT.

    Luke 16:27-31-THEN HE SAID, I PRAY THEE THEREFORE, FATHER, THAT THOU WOULDEST SEND HIM TO MY FATHER'S HOUSE: FOR I HAVE FIVE BRETHREN; THAT HE MAY TESTIFY UNTO THEM, LEST THEY ALSO COME INTO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT. ABRAHAM SAITH UNTO HIM, THEY HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS (or it may be said they have the Bible, God’s Word); LET THEM HEAR THEM. AND HE SAID, NAY, FATHER ABRAHAM. He recognized that they would not repent by just hearing God’s word, so he continued by saying—BUT IF ONE WENT UNTO THEM FROM THE DEAD, THEY WILL REPENT. AND HE (Abraham) SAID UNTO HIM, IF THEY HEAR NOT MOSES AND THE PROPHETS (or if they hear not the Bible, which is God’s Word), NEITHER WILL THEY BE PERSUADED, THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

    Why do so many even fight against Bible prophecy being taught? The answer lies in many verses, including this one. Dan 12:9 ends with the words, THE TIME OF THE END. Verse 10 tells us, MANY SHALL BE PURIFIED, AND MADE WHITE, AND TRIED; BUT THE WICKED SHALL DO WICKEDLY: AND NONE OF THE WICKED SHALL UNDERSTAND; BUT THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND.

    Regarding the end times, note the words:
   Group one
   NONE OF THE WICKED SHALL UNDERSTAND. Group two
   THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND.
    Thus, we might ask, can everyone understand the Scriptures dealing with the times we are now in? Can everyone understand that Jesus is soon to return? Only a select group can understand. That group has just been identified by Daniel.
    They are also identified, in 1 Cor 2:14-BUT THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD: FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.

   Rev 1:1. THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO SHOW UNTO HIS SERVANTS THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; AND HE SENT AND SIGNIFIED IT (or made it known) BY (sending) HIS ANGEL UNTO HIS SERVANT JOHN.
   Rev 1:1. THE REVELATION. Note, it is singular. This book does not contain different revelations, but one extensive revelation that makes known the subject of the entire book.
   OF JESUS CHRIST. The information that is to be given is of Jesus Christ, not of John.
   WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM. The Father gave it to Jesus.
   TO SHOW UNTO HIS SERVANTS THINGS. One of the purposes of the Revelation is to show the servants of Jesus Christ certain things. The Revelation is not for unbelievers, but for those, who, when the Lord comes, shall be found watching and doing.
   WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS. The Revelation gives future events that are absolutely certain to come to pass. Even as the Revelation was being written, some of the prophecies were already beginning to transpire.
   AND HE SENT AND SIGNIFIED IT (or made it known)
   BY (sending)
   HIS ANGEL UNTO HIS SERVANT JOHN. The Father gave it to Jesus. Jesus delivered it to the angel. The angel revealed it to John, and John makes it known to the servants of God through the written Word. John is shown here as the writer of the Revelation.
    In Rev 22:16, it is written, I JESUS HAVE SENT MINE ANGEL TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE CHURCHES. AND HE SAID UNTO ME, THESE SAYINGS ARE FAITHFUL AND TRUE: AND THE LORD GOD OF THE HOLY PROPHETS SENT HIS ANGEL TO SHOW UNTO HIS SERVANTS THE THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY BE DONE-Rev 22:6.
    Clearly, Jesus is showing that the Revelation is to be taught in the churches. These things, which must shortly come to pass, are to be taught to God’s servants.

It's great that you could cut and paste verses from http://www.wwwhollywoodjesus.com/Documents/Bible_Prophecy/Why_dont_you_understand.htm but what does that prove?

It this an attempt to discredit me for being a believer? its called study & reference material.  It just so happens it is in my favorites to answer reduntant questions from nonbelievers and nay sayers. I have a lot more where that came from. Maybe if you tried reading some of the material you'll have a better understanding. but then agian its not cool to be a bible thumper. your little voice in your head is probly thinking  what will people think of me because I believe or read the bible. you commented on getting a violin because I stand for something. At least I have foundation, Moral minded attitude, faith and convictions. My kids will be brought up with the same things I believe in and that many lack. Plus I suppport those who are fighting for our freedom that we take for granted. run that across you bow strings.

Chuck, that is not studying.

Let me give you an example, I have always been a big fan of physics, I have read every book there is on the subject, by Newton, Hawking, Einstein, Feynman etc.. but it was only when I went to an actual university did I discover I didn't even know the basics.

In other word you do not become learned in a subject just because you read the parts you like on the internet.

Don't sweat it Chuck. Some are bent on creating discord in what ever arena they can. Those of us that know and want the truth appreciate your posts. Some are so cynical that it doesn't matter what you say or how you attempt to enlighten them. They will choose to turn a blind eye to the truth that exists. You can lead a sinner to the Bible but you can't make the accept it. Forbid they should accept Jesus and partake in everlasting life at the cost of living with morals and rules. I will no longer argue the truth of my faith. If anyone is genuinely interested or has legitimate questions please feel free to PM me. If I don't know the answers I can point you in the right direction. It's apparent that some are just interested in trying to force their ideals of non-faith upon us just like the Gays want us to accept them forcing their deviant ways upon the masses. My point  has been made. No need to go back and forth with non-believers looking for an arguement.

so your saying I have to go to a university before any of my beliefs or study material becomes real. sorry find a better argument. go back to the begining of this post and you will find that I was there! in Israel in 1989 as a person who knew mere basics of the Bible I found more than I could ever imagine to  find in the 3 days that  I was there. but even then it took until march of 2000 before I could fully understand what things meant. and even at that I am shown new things everyday. You think some Secular university can do what personal experience and personal study can, did you know that every IVY league school, harvard,princeton & yale started out as a Christ centered college.  whether I get it out of the bible or through the teaching of someone else with a common interest I see no validity to your argument. did you go to a university for working  or riding  your ATV? how do you know your really changed your oil, or figured out how to make it move. We are in real trouble if you need a college degree to ride one now.  

I'll leave at that Chuck.

 It's apparent that some are just interested in trying to force their ideals of non-faith upon us just like the Gays want us to accept them forcing their deviant ways upon the masses. My point  has been made. No need to go back and forth with non-believers looking for an arguement.

Watch out for those Gay non-believers :o

cain, you are hilarious, you say I'm trying to force my ideals on people, what ideal is that? 

Chuck made a long post, when someone does that, they do it to prove a point, support an arguement or provide information. I looked at it, looked up the cited verses and gave my opinon which is not far fetched.

Now if I changed my Screen name to Arnold Schwartenberger and wrote 2 foot replies in a godly, Charlton Heston style writting with an anti-religious avitar twirling and provided links to all the anti-religious website, then I would be forcing my ideals on everyone.

And just for the record, I'm not anti-religious, actually I find it interesting from a historical point of view, I just don't believe in the magic and the hocus pocus.

What possible reason would gay people care if you accepted their ideals? I  am aware that  there are a percentage of gay people who are activists and are always pushing for everyone to accept them. I feel I am in the majority of gay people who really don't care what mainstream society thinks, let alone the jesus freaks who spend the majority of their time  quoting 2000 year old fables.

I am gay, catholic, republican, a business owner and an Atv rider. Oh yea, I also own 4 Ford vehicles.

 "The one thing I pray for is for jesus to protect me from his followers."

 Some famous gays in History:
 Michelangelo,  Julius III (1487-1555) Catholic Pope,
 Leonardo da Vinci,  Alexander The Great and thousands more.

I really don't know how this topic which started as a jab towards gay people (ford Boycott)  developed into such
a ridiculous discussion.