ATV Florida Forum

This is pretty interesting when you read everything on it. I have been looking at reviews and stuff and cannot see where it wouldn't work. The thing is that you buy two books and build your own kit, then install it.

www.water4gas.com

Very interesting indeed. I wish I knew someone that has tried it out. My mechanic is a pretty good friend of mine. I am gonna forward this to him and see what he thinks. He keeps up pretty well with these type of things. I would love to see my Tundra pulling 50mpg's!!! Apparently, statistically we only utilize 17% of our fuel and the rest is burns off.

So who going to try it first? :o

Probably Me. LOL. I just wondering if anyone else has been reading about it or has actually used it.

This article seems to be a pretty good breakdown on what you are getting and how it works.

http://www.auto-facts.org/water4gas-scam.html

I wanna go for it!!!!!!

I read that one also. I have probably looked at 10 or more websites and have not found anything against it. The books are downloadable so there not in print. Then you have to purchase the equipment to build the unit. I think that in theory it should work.

It seems that the only negative feedback comes from people who don't research and are expecting to receive a simple installable device.

Thats all I have come up with also. Seems some people feel scammed because they only get an online book that tells you what you need and how to build it.

isnt that just water/methanol injection basicly?

http://www.mpgaccelerator.com/

Very cool! I wonder what kind of miles that my trucks would get with it.

Yunt!!!! Check this out!!

http://www.wptv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=74b15465-2ebb-49e0-acb1-939c4bb13a28

I saw that was going to be on the news and was thinking it would be bs. Guess I was wrong.

Wow.

Wow I thought it was bs too, I really want to do it now!

It is the same system as water4gas except you can build it cheaper then the hydro 4000, or buy the system cheaper. I was ready to buy the books and after a little research, here is why I didn't. I came across a site that sells the system and there was a note on it that said that you may want to try it on an inexpensive or older car first because you have to add sodium. Sodium is salt based and they didn't know the long term effect as far as rusting.

Since then, There was a guy who actually came into our service department and he always comes in and talks to me. We got to talking and he started talking to me about this device that he purchased for $195 from a friend of his in Miami, It was the water4gas device. Anyways, He had the device ready at home and said that he was getting ready to install it in his suburban and he would bring it by after installation. I will take some pics of it but I'm not sure when he will be back. I am also gonna let him run it for 6 months or so and then see if anything is rusted. I mentioned the rust to him and he said the system comes with an inline filter to catch any particles to keep out the salt.

Looked pretty factual on news 58-61% increase in mpg. Wonder if it works for smaller diesels & as Yunt said,long term effects.

I read on for three days looking for something that said it would not work. I could not find anything. I did find that it seemed the smaller vehicles got more MPGs then big ones. But even big ones had an increase in MPGs.

I am thinking about getting one when I get some money!!!! Let us know how that guys Suburban tests with it.

no salt needed if you use potassium hydroxcide as the electrolite.

Here is a website that sells some professional looking units.

http://www.shop.hydrofuelsolutions.com/main.sc

watch this guys videos for tips and tricks do's and don'ts, he has done some reserch.
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ZeroFossilFuel

this guy is pretty sharp as well. http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=sm0ky40

on fuel injected vehicles you need an EFIE for the oxygen sensor or you will see very little improvement.

here are some links. http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/store/   and  http://www.eagle-research.com/FAQ/FS/efiefaq.html  and  http://www.eagle-research.com/fuelsav/efie.html

Hope this helps??

I will wait and see what happens with suburban hate to tear up a new car maybe if i had an older car to experiment on.But if it really works it would be worth it for sure keep us informed.

I'll tell you what, you can bolt one on my Suburban and I will look out for rust.

I sure am eager to hear the results of the test to see if there is an rust in the engine from the salt.

At $389 I am tempted to try this contraption.

http://www.shop.hydrofuelsolutions.com/product.sc;jsessionid=1C66ABB046245AFE57B394AC35EF41A1.qscstrfrnt02?categoryId=1&productId=2

If you read he suggests using KOH for the electrolite KOH is potassium hydroxide .

Ive got a call into the guy on the wptv story & we will speak tomorrow. If its $1200 installed Im in and if it works well I would look for a distributorship ;)

Also we have overcome most of the Iron bloom problem using Steam distilled or Rain water

You have a choice of 3 different mixes you can use.

White distilled vinegar and water

Baking soda and distilled water

Or KOH if you wish

The baking soda will disapate over time where the KOH will not

Amp draw is determined via strength of mix to get a 8 to 9 amp cold amp draw

In most cases this is 1 to 2 teaspoons of baking soda in 1 gal of water as a starting point!

50/50 vinegar water

or 1/2 teaspoon of flakes of KOH

If you can catch Rain water that is the best!

--

Dang that page reads like spam..haha I would think RO water would be the best.
I almost want to try and build something that resembles it out of PVC
like he warns about not buyin just to see how much gas it can pump out
and try it with some small engines first. You know more about it and have a lathe.
Check it out for us will ya!

how do you think I know so much about it already.  ;)

Redneck know how

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3ybM4Lyzl4&feature=related

Nice.

I doubt it do to all the moving parts. Unless your car sets for awhile.

hmmm considering that all the engine blocks in cars and trucks now are aluminum, I think that it would take some time for those to rust..

i think i would rather spend the cash on the kit to make biodiesel. i have seen some bad reviews on that kit and a few good ones, i doubt it would save enough to justify $1200.

Where are you going to get the used cooking oil to convert?

True dat,unless you personally know a diner or chinc food place......good luck. That market is pretty tight. The people with the used grease actually have services that PAY them for it & supply them with all the storage containers.


Back to the HHO Im in touch with a guy and will have one on my diesel soon one way or another.

Just a warning HHO does not work well in multi stage injection systems such as the Ford Super duty's engine. you will see almost no difference in milage.

here is an example taken right from an HHO devise manufacturer web page.

Will  Work On fuel injected . Or carbureted.

or Diesel

 On the smaller diesels like in the jetta and on reefers we have seen dramatic gains as much as 44%

But you have to have space to install and in some small diesel vehicles space is limited

If you are installing on a Gas fuel injected engine you will need an O2 extender on the front O2 sensors and in some cases what is called an EFIE so the O2 sensor will NOT see the extra oxygen from the HHO generator

There is 2 gas engines that see very little gains from a HHO unit they are the V10 dodge and the Toyotas with the Hi output V8. the reason being is the engine computer defaults to a fixed fuel ratio.

Also the Power Stroke Fords  6.0 and 7.3 see very little gains due to how they inject the diesel fuel in a 2 part process  
Most all other engines see app 20 to 40% MPG gains

and a noticeable increase in power!

What is happening is you are introducing Hydrogen and Oxygen in to the air stream of you vehicle.

The Hydrogen and Oxygen Not only is adding supplement fuel to your engine. Making it a HYBRID. But the extra oxygen is helping your normal fuel burn more complete

Raising Power. Better Mileage.

http://www.wptv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=74b15465-2ebb-49e0-acb1-939c4bb13a28

The guy Carmine I spoke with says the owner has a f-250 6.0-7.3 I dont know. He has seen signifigant gains 40 + % if he wants to sell me a system hes going to have to start with a full tank & let or drive me  30-50 miles on HWY.

$1200 to make my 3/4 ton 4WD Suburban get 30MPG? I am finding all this hard to believe. I wonder why the auto manufacturers aren't using this to achieve the mandated MPG with giant new cars and trucks?

Probably because the consumer has to keep up with the water usage and mix the sodium in it. Some people, are just gas and go people. Its gotta be a simple process. This you have to maintain (keeping it full of the water and sodium mixture) or it won't work. I'm not sure what would happen if you let it run out of water also.

Anyone have any updates on this? I'm really tempted at only 389~!

Im working on it ??? ;)

lets not forget the electrolysis factor on all aluminum parts that salt can cause.

That would be confined to the generating canister. So long as H and O2 don't cause corrosion I can't see how this could actually hurt anything.

id really need to know exactly how this works in far more detail than just "it retunes your computer" becasue i will be completely retuning my ecm myself and i need to understand the effect this water4gas thing would have on my air fuel ratio and stuff like that... seems like a bunch of crap to me, xylol is just methanol with harsh chemicals in it that will literally destroy any kind of rubber gasket or seal that it gets on, trust me i used it as methanol once and it destroyed my methanol injection pump...

Here is a link to plans to build your own for free.
The instructions also have link at the end on how to build
your own mod for tuning the O2 sensor (or you can buy
them ready built).  He also sells them ready made for $220.

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.pdf

Their website is http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.html

I've been reading up and thinking about building one myself.

My grandfather has a system like this on his Delta88 that he pulled a travel trailer with and it works.

I could see how this 1200 dollar system could possibly pay for its self in the long long run.....

L@@k at it on e-bay , a lot less costly & seems simple enough to make. I'm building one. I actually seen one this past weekend working. Very impressed. My diesel dually has been getting 15mpg city,03 f-350 6.0 stock. Worse case scenario I can plug the hole back up where the gas goes into & abandon it cheap enough to build. Waste more $$$$ in booby bar :o

Let us know how it works!

Nice links. I think I am going to build the oxygen sensor control from that page first. 5-10% sounds like a nice start.

Keep us updated guys!

Salt is not needed!!!! the best electrolite is Potassium hydroxide (KOH) next best is a mixture of baking soda and hydrogen peroxide. The only possible corrosion that comes from using this is from the fact that when HHO burns it turns back into water but because it is being used as an additive to fossil fuels the gas burns off the little bit of water and forms steam which helps cool exhaust gas temps. Much of the fuel used in todays cars is used to cool the exhaust temps and prevent detonation as well as burnt valves then whats left of this gas that is used only to help cool things down is burnt off in the catylitic converter. Lean is Hot - Rich is cool. lean saves fuel but can burn holes in pistons. Rich uses a lot more gas but saves parts. HHO helps by providing a overall more complete combustion and turns to water helping cool things down allowing you to run a leaner mixture but maintain a good exhaust tem.

So check it out, I went to my buddies shop today. We were talking about how he wants to stat retrofitting cars with electric motors when I mentioned this new deal.

Much to my surprise we went to his 5.7 triton powered F-150 and popped the hood.



(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/kr-yppy/hydro/IMG_0255Medium.jpg)

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/kr-yppy/hydro/IMG_0257Medium.jpg)

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/kr-yppy/hydro/IMG_0260Medium.jpg)

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/kr-yppy/hydro/IMG_0262Medium.jpg)

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/kr-yppy/hydro/IMG_0254Medium.jpg)

He said he is getting maybe 30 more miles to a tank with this unit, but does feel an increase in power. I told him we needed to build the O2 sensor circuit and really find out what it can do, but he is way ahead of me and has the software on the way to modify the fuel curve in the ECU along with timing and other key tuning elements. I will keep you informed. I am going to build a PVC version on the bench and try it with a 6KW generator.
 

For 20bucks  these can be built but the o2 sensor has to account for the extra fuel being hydrogen

JackL.. You are never too far from controversy but your camera work is top notch.  Great pics. 

30 miles a tank.  If the truck has a 30 gallon gas tank, then that is 1 mile per gallon improvement. Someone please check my math. 

That would be correct. If he adds the map sensor/02 sensor, then it will recalibrate the computer and be more efficient.

well you math is good but the tanks isnt that big most F150's dont have a 30galloin tank

150's should be 24 or 27 gallons

heck if you do it yourself and xtra 30 miles is worth it .... i wouldnt spend 1200 for those 30 miles but building it yourself appears to be cheap.

so what exactly does the 02 sensor fooler doing because i can guarantee its not doing it the correct way. there is a proper air fuel ratio for any kind of fuel and your ecm is reading the 02sensor constantly looking for as close to 14.7:1, if it senses leener it will add fuel and the same the other way so in what way are you trying to trick it? what is the actual air fuel ratio that you need to shoot for while burning this stuff? i would think leener, becasue that woul give you better mpg. the ecm can only compensate so much if it still thinks 14.7:1 is what it needs... if you can sorta understand what im saying... so basicly without retuning you will do a little better becasue it will sense a false rich reading from the extra whatever its called that your dumping in and it will compensate by giving you less gas so you will get beter mpg but you have to understand that the ecm still thinks your at 14.7:1 and is trying hard to keep you there and in doing so you will get less fuel meaning better mpg but its far from its maximum efficiency since the ecm is just confused...

i still dont understand how this stuff works except for it must just be a type of fuel that has a leaner air fuel ratio meaning it takes more air and less fuel to burn best... but a fuel with a leaner ratio inst as powerful, thats why race cars burn methanol, becasue it takes very little air to ignite it. this stuff must take tons of air meaning that u get by with less fuel... am i close? am the only one who thinks this deep into how it works?

PVC will get soft and melt at 15 amps........ not a good idea!

Yes, less than stellar. The unit has only been in operation for a few hundred miles at this point and the fuel curve still needs to be modified. I'm looking forward to trying it on a carb'd generator.



I'm thinking the alternator must be dragging pretty good with the extra 20 amps for the unit and all.

Not if the Ohms & impedence change the molecular structure by the cooling efect of the hho being produced. ;)


I got my supplies I will be up and running soon

haha

I'm pretty sure if you use schedule 80 it will be like the black box in a plane.

I remember reading somewhere that you wont see big results for a tank or 2  im sure 150 miles would be less than a tank ... can you keep us up to date?

I was thinking the same thing. I'll tell you, I am watering at the mouth over the possibility of 30MPG in a 3/4 ton. I find this unbelievable, but the CH 5 report is very hard to ignore.

I am building the oxygen sensor control circuit in the next few days to try and get the 5-10% and get ready to strap this crazy contraption in. You can be sure I will post pictures and overstate the results vs the Ford. ;)

Take plenty of pictures please. I was thinking about 6 inch schedule 40 PVC with a cap on the bottom and a male plug on the top so that you could unscrew it to fill with water,

You do need to have a clear tube to see the bubbling. That will need to be regulated.

Or just buy the kit:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HHO-Hydrogen-Electrolyzer-water4gas-Hydroxy-1-cell-kit_W0QQitemZ150246889978QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item150246889978&

 ;)

I made 2 cells alot cheaper than that. They work all ready to go....except I need a good point to introduce it into the system. Anyone have any ideas where the best place to feed it into a 6.0 ford diesel? I was thinking right before turbo into that plastic tube,thoughts?

in a turbo application im thinking it wont matter much its going to get mixed up pretty good going through the turbo

Thats what I was hoping to here Pizzim. Well now all I need to do is find a 12 volt power supply after ignition to see what these things do.

volt meter and time  :dunno.gif  i would think you should stay away from the injection pump and the like

I would get a relay from Rat Shack and connect it to an ignition switched fuse so I could pull directly from the battery and avoid the vehicles electrical system, and possibly hook to to the oil pressure sender in the future if it works. Twenty amps is a good draw. Definitely make sure the ignition switch doesn't get hot if you hook it up there.

Im just gonna put in switches for them :o

I got $5 says that only lasts a week  rolback1  thats gona get annoying real quick .... but if it makes you able to post results quicks go for it  :ThumbsUp.gif

Yeah I would probably do that also. I wonder if you let it bubble for a while and try to start it if it will Hindenburg...first time you replace the airbox or hood you won't forget to shut it off.

well after 4 weeks in my ranger I got 26mpg, from 18 without system so that is a 46% gain in mpg from a system that I spent like 18.00 on. It is a mason jar from dollar general

 I saw on u-tube today that a guy was letting it bubble into a pot of water & using a BBQ lighter to test the gas & it POPPED like a firecracker. Godd way to test. I think I will install a boat blower under my hood case I get trashed & pass out listening to Johnny Cash @ RR one night ;) :o 8) ???

I got a ranger too :) wanna help a brother out? I'm getting about 16/18 now, but you know I'd love more!

I'll pay/help however it takes to get the system up and running.

on this page has instructions where I made mine

http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

The problem with switches would be if you ever got into an accident or something and there was still power to the system. If you had a way to hook it up to the oil pump sensor and the key switch it may be better. Also, by just hooking it up to the key switch, if you wanted to listen to the radio on accessory, then you couldn't without a toggle switch or oil pump sensor switch. Need those backup shutoffs. You would need your hot wire running from the key switch, to the toggle switch, to the oil pump sensor and then to the generator for safety.

Yea but ..........allot more work for a non mech.  System is installed & running. Ive got 3/4 tank. Will be in town to top off & will start the mileage from that point on. Will just let it run for now as a kind of acclimation till the truck is full. Better results are supposed to come after the first few hundred miles.

ummm where are the pics and :}}

x2 on pics, I want to jump on getting one of these systems.  I just don't want to mess with my 02 sensors and MAF

Good job Wacker. Keep us informed. I would have already done it but I only drive my truck on the weekends. If I drove it every day then it would have already been on there.

Unfortunately that is how you get the gains.

A plug and play wideband O2 sensor solution exists for around $200, that is the way to go I'm thinking.

a wideband 02 sensor goes for around 350 for a cheepy. if you have a obs gm truck you can wire a basic 80$ wide band o2 sensor and wire it into the egr pin on your chip behind the dash, so you can read it through data loging if you have the cable and free software. the downside is you will have no egr, but for me thats an upside lol

You got a link that describes this?

I was thinking of something like this: http://www.jegs.com/i/DFI/310/77657/10002/-1#moreDetails

all you guys need to do is find out what the air fuel ratio needs to be burning that stuff and then tune your ecm to shoot for that ecm, tunning it off of a wide band 02 as apposed to the narrow band that your stock ecm reeds from just takes it a step further in precision tuning and dead accuracy for MAXIMUM fuel eficeincy. wide band is always a good idea when tuning and pretty much mandatory if you have a blower... you guys will see more mpg gains if you all got ur cats taken out and got quality custom tunes than u will ever see from this water4gas stuff...

Funny you say that, I was just sitting here thinking how it is time to lose the cat.
I really like all the features in the Accel DFI 77657, water4gas or not.

the way i see it is you all need to take care of the basic stuff like a cold air intake, no kitty cats, possibly headers/no egr and a really good custom dyno tune with a wideband 02, then start thinking about adding this water4 gas unit as just a bonus. a good dyno shop will tune it off of their wideband 02 sensor so you wont need to buy one. the reason i am is becasue im tuning myself...

and that water4gas will make your emissions better so may even pass emissions with no cat running that stuff, im pretty sure it was originally designed to help emissions

Good job Wacker and BD. The whole house filter is probably a great idea because it made of heavier plastic. What did you use for the positive and negative coils.

I tell you I drove 75 miles since fill up Friday eve & the guage hasnt moved. Oh I HOPE that it is not stuck & Im seeing results. Good looking system BD, When & if mine shows gains I will be upgrading & spending a few more $$ as well. For now mine is sufficient for experimenting. I will pull it off & install it on Rhino & Lawnmower if it all works.

What is the pvc tube for? Scrubber? I dont get the concept. On a buggy its good but on a car - truck you wont have the height to mount it up.

You gays are both rocket surgeons ;D  Great job I am very impressed with both of you....I guess I will take you off IGNORE.LOL

they tested this on diesel place and it would never do more than 1 mpg better, it draws alot from your alternator. there are alot better ways to get better mpg...

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244549&highlight=hydrogen

some good info, take it for what its worth.

go on some other forums and search hydrogen generator, you'll find most of the threads end up with it being bs. in theory it works, but a generator that small doesn't make enough to make a very big difference and it drags the alternator allot which just robs the millage you may pick up anyway. but i have seen a few good results so idk, I'm curious to see your results.

What kills me is all the KNOW IT all s. I'm by no means a mech but for $50 and some time, if it works aw some. I have seen it in a ranger with an honest man telling me the beneficial results. I am still skeptical, however I am still doing it. All you wish I dids that know it all aren't even trying. If it works well than the jokes on you.  For what its worth I m done posting about it all you Know alls are right with all your experience & knowledge on this matter I guess i will just give it up.

And this is a completely fabricated News story right........

http://www.wptv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=74b15465-2ebb-49e0-acb1-939c4bb13a28

its not that i know ti all its that i have a good understanding about how my truck works, what makes it perform and what it takes to get it tuned properly. you cant just go dumping crap in your engine without correcting the air fuel ratio, a set of headers will throw off a very precise tune, precise tuning is what gives you better mpg. no way around it... i really hope it works for you, im just stating some basic fact that you all seem to completely overlook. i could see it helping out a little and you cant beet it for how little it costs but im just saying you should always do the more important things first, don't just go dumping stuff in your engine and give your ecm a slap in the face. all i could see it doing is taking up room in the cylinder and in doing so allows you to use less gas, so its far from a performance upgrade. an egr will help mpg some at highway speeds by basically doing the same thing, taking up space during combustion, using less gas... that doesn't at all make an egr worth having tho lol

Wacker, I explain the system to you this weekend.

 

i would try one out but i honestly don't have the money right now... it seems to do worse on diesels anyways.

Wacker, don't quit posting about it here. There are more people on this thread that are curious then against it. Remember, now we have an ignore button. Don't let these people get to you. I commend you and BD for building this system. I guess we should know how much its helped you after about 1,000 miles

? you guys are rediculus, im not trying to get to you? im rying to help you and tell you a few facts, if you all cant handle that than you shouldnt be turning a wrench on your truck lol. you all act like a bunch of 2 year olds.

this is what seperated this forum from a real technical forum. on a technical forum people are expecting help and advice, on here you just want to do what you want and ignore anything from anyone who has a slightley different opinion on it. i never said its not going to work, i hope it does. im really just trying to help

Objective yes I understand where you are coming from, NOT  directed at you. I just cant stand the it dont work well with ......blah blah blah anyway comments. ;) Like I said i have seen it in a ranger with complete success. Also look at the News vid.How can you dispute those results without trying it. When it dont work yall can laugh at me when it does ..KMBA~!

not to bash you or anything, but those blah blah blahs are facts that you really should be considering regardless of how much success it had on a different vehicle... just a thought...

The blower guy talking about mileage...haha

It is hard to ignore the results people have achieved, even if it SERIOUSLY sounds like a perpetual motion device.

my last tank full I got 29mpg thats up 3 more mpg's than previous tank and right before fill-up I installed Oxygen sensor extenders. That is also with 2 generators , one straight into the intake and the other into the vacuum line on  98 RANGER W/111000 MILES

a truck with a blower will get the same if not better mpg than a naturally aspirated truck as long as you dont sink your foot into it... but i guess thats just another one of those blah blah blah anyway comments right. lol

just because i have a blower doesn't mean i dont know about gas millage, actually it would mean i know more about it being that a blown engine requires a much higher level of tunning skill which i understand and tuning is all about fuel millage. i wish i could make you guys understand but you all just overlook my advice. but as you guys are posting results its obvious that this water4gas does do something, just not an enormous amount, but definitely worth while... good luck with it...

you guys make yourselves look ignorant is all im saying... no offense

you guys make yourselves look ignorant is all im saying... no offense???????




 no offense?   ARE YOU SERIOUS?  LMAO!

i didnt say you ARE ignorant, your all just making yoursleves look it. i know your not all a bunch of idiot but im just saying, the way you all overlook verry basic facts sortof makes you guys look like you have your head up your ass and im sorry if that sounds offensive becasue im really not trying to start a massive argument, as iv said before the water4gas thing does work and im not saying i doesnt...

i should have never said anything, i try to help and nobody wants any help, they just want to do what they want to do. belive me or not, a dyno tune will yeild more mpg, a dyno tune with the water4gas would be a verry good idea...

Awsome Ron. 12 extra mpg is a very respectable gain. I have been swamped with work and havent left home 2 days to put some miles on. I will be heading out of town later this week, & will be putting on 3-400 miles. So as of now I wont really see anything till I burn some diesel.

yes I know its great and makes me want to add a few more to the setup from 17 to 29 is great but I would like to get more maybe I will be hitting up Dollar General to pick up some more mason jars (WHO KNOWS MAYBE EVEN A 6 PACK)

Chevy, we all understand what you are saying about the tuning. We know that it makes a diference. But for the price if this equipment, if you can get just an extra 1 or 2MPGs, then its worth it. There are a lot of people on here that may not be as mechanically inclined as others and are doing what they know to do for right now. You gotta start somewhere and this is a good start that these members are making. Maybe down the road someone will give them a little more advice as to what else the need to do to fine tune it. This is a simple solution that most anybody with a little mechanical experience that do and then after someone looks at it then they may can help with the other stuff like a mass flow sensor and stuff.

well i understand that but the main point im trying to get across is that your truck does not like what you are doing to it if your just fooling the 02 sensor or even worse just dumping the stuff in. im not saying these people need to be very mechanically inclined to just put it on, what im saying is your not doing it the right way by not considering the ecm... so basicly what im getting at is maybe you should be more mechanically inclined than most that are doing this, maybe you really should consider running your truck at the wrong air fuel ratio a big deal, what are the long term affects? you could be running the engine leen and bun it up, or you could be running it pig rich on the stuff and causing extra wear on your piston rings... so yes anyone can do it the half ass way and pick up a few mpg but is it really worth it when you destroy your truck? just something to think about...

and btw, on a diesel it really doesn't matter about tunning but im almost positive it does alot less on a diesel than it does on a gasser...

Its all about doing it verse talking about it. The generator was the first step next comes the Map/Maf sensor adjuster, which today that part was complete.

Just so you know I have 2 system fully running and testing and 2 more by the end of this weekend.


I guest Bill Gates had to hear the blah blah from the know it all's too.   

yea itl be real blah blah when you burn your moter up becasue you decided to pick up a few mpg by running your engine leen...

i try and give a small amount of technical knowledge to help out and i get bashed for it. THIS right here is what separates this forum from the rest. i will leave this thread now and let all of you do what you will. its pretty stupid to turn down advice from someone who obviously has more knowledge on the subject, im trying to help you all out and my advice gets ignored.

i completely understand how my posts could really piss you guys off, but you need to understand that its not that im a d!ck, its that im trying to help, and the truth of the matter is that this is not something you should be doing the way you guys are doing it, its not the correct way. the correct way cost more money than just slapping it together and hoping your ecm will do its best... ITS ALL ABOUT THE TUNE! you guys should check out www.thirdgen.org and do a little bit of reading on how a properly tuned ecm should function... fooling the map sensor or fooling the 02 sensor is NEVER EVER even close to a good idea. and i know ill take crap for this becasue now its my fault that you waisted money on fooling your 02 sensor becasue i brought it to your attention and you dont want to know about all that blah blah blah...

Ok.... so what do you know about engs?  Are you a master tech?

nope, i just know what it takes to tune an ecm and figured i could offer some help since fooling the 02 sensor obviously inst the right way. if your a master tech you should know that and more lol

ok so all this bitching aside...

what are you a master tech in? if its not to personal, how much money do you make? the only reason i ask is because i am going to uti not this summer but the next to become a master tech for bmw...

Thank you for sharing your great wisdom with us ignorant fools. So what sort of MPG are you getting with the supercharger? I guess I was an idiot to want to run just a K&N, no cat and a modified fuel curve when I could have 400HP and great mileage.

I think I have an 8-71 in the garage, I will get started. ;)

lol, everything on this forum turns into argument. no other forum is like this.

ok guys, you don't have to take it personally, it seems you all are very offended over nothing. i never claimed to be the smartest guy but i do know about what i know about and i was just trying to help out... remind me never to give any opinions or input on anything i may get a new ass chewed for it...

your not all ignorant fools, but the more you bash me over nothing the more ignorant you look. nobody hear sees that im not out to bash anyone, im trying to help out... this is ridiculous.

if your trying to say that a blower HAS to get worse millage than naturally aspirated, for the most part, you are wrong(please don't rip me a new a$$ hole, im not trying to bash you, really). if you don't put your foot into it you can cruise around under vacuum just like a naturally aspirated car. your not adding any extra fuel(untill under boost) and your not adding any displacement, therefor no extra gas is getting burned...

your all not understanding, let me make it simple

YES, i do think that this water4gas works

NO your not all ignorant hillbillys

YES you all are making yourselves look ingnorant by bashing me for simply trying to help

NO you dont have to tune your truck to run water4gas but it is not a good idea

YES this would be a great idea if you all would consider my advice and do it the right way and tune for it!

so relax and stop taking it personaly

man cant we all just get along? this seems like a night time soap opera

sadly thats how alot of threads end up on this site, nobody can hadle advice or an opinion other than their own.

so yea, lets just forget i even said anything and ill remember to just keep to myself when it comes to technical matters...

I have a few courses in obd2  
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/503/080520170110ov0.jpg)
(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/90/080520170012kv8.jpg)

what technical school did you go to?

ahhhh GM


Here my first map/maf control ready for testing
(http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7417/080520211100dm2.jpg)

how the hell does that work and what is the advantage over just buying th stuff to tune your ecm, you shoudl know how considering your a master tech and all...

how come gm doesnt offer anything anymore? uti has no gm so i picked bmw...

never said I was a master tech, but i do know a few thing about cars.  ;)........ Sorry no details at this time.

Yes they do, but only if you work has a tech in a GM dealer.

have you heard of www.moates.com ? you could have all the stuff for under 300$ if you want to have a real time emulator, i know nothing about your car/truck but if its older you can just burn chips for really cheep. tunerpro is free and a great program and has its own dataloging program too

o yea, but that way i would have to go into the dealer with a verry basic certificate makming not alot of money and have to work for 10 years before i got anywhere. doing the bmw program at uti will start me out at at least  70k a year at any dealership with a 90 something % rate of recruitment from uti...

those day are long gone, I just like to build and learn.  

You still have to pay your dues......you will see!

yea i know. i just know that bmw is in partnership with uti so obviously i will get more through bmw even tho im a pretty hardcore gm fan...

Looks to be based on this. I would use a pyrometer with that design for sure...



This link is dead. Do you have a new one?

This must be the site that he was talking about.


http://www.moates.net

Thanks.

Some interesting stuff there: http://www.moates.net/index.php?cPath=50

yep,  im getting the ostrich 2.0 real time emulator for mine and ill use tuerpro rt to tune it. its great becasue i don't have to wait and burn chips with the real time emulator...

sadly thats how alot of threads end up on this site, nobody can hadle advice or an opinion other than their own.

so yea, lets just forget i even said anything and ill remember to just keep to myself when it comes to technical masters...
[/quote]

  That would be great. ;D

Do they sell a water-4-gas system for the suzuki z400? My dads making me pay for my own gas now and my job doesnt pay enough money.

yea, it seems that everyone feels threatened when i offer advice, its like you all take it personally like its my fault for pointing out something you should consider. i like to learn new things and learn alot on more technical forums but this forum is just sort of hopeless when it comes to that, but its no big deal, the forums purpose inst so much about technical stuff anyways so its all good...

 :-\ ill never get this forum, everyones out to get me for trying to help... hope it makes yall feel better becasue your accomplishing nothing...

Don't let them get to you brother. You have made valid points and everyone appreciates it they're just to hard headed to say thanks....It's all good.

Its not thats he has made some valid points because he has. Its just the fact that you gotta start somewhere and this system is a start at a cheap price. After you get the system installed, then you can focus on tuning it more closer.

TJ is up and running....... New oxygen sensor programer is working fine, voltage at 4.5. Just fill the Jeep and starting MPG is 15.5.... Lets see what happens in the next few day. 

I agree with Yunt on this.  If you try to give advise and they don't follow it, don't worry about it.   Chevy1500Z71 you seem to get your feelings hurt if they don't listen to you.  I'm sure all your points are valid ones but hey, if they want to try let them try.  Like even you have said what they are doing may work, now I would not try it but I am glad someone is trying it.

What I have found in the last few months is if you just keep your foot off the gas you will save alot of mpg's.  The last few months I have been very aware of my speed and try to keep it at the speed limit in town and 5mph over on the interstate.  I have also tried to avoid the jack-rabbit starts and without even trying my mileage has gone up from 12/15 to 16/18.  These #s are without even putting a whole lot of effort but I am now going to try to get a little more. 

If you pull up "Hypermiling" on google and read some of the websites you can pick up a lot of good pointers, now some of these guys take it too the extreme but if you just pick up a few things it will help.

BTW, I drive a 2003 Ford Supercrew with a 5.4L V-8 with tow package.  I was thinking of selling my truck but since I am now getting a lot better mileage I will keep it for a few more years (since it is paid off) and since it is also running very good with almost 60,000  miles.

Good luck

well the point im REALLY trying to get across is that you shouldn't just risk it until you decide to start tuning it closer(i know that you already have accepted that tunning it is something you should do). all im saying is if i had a brand new 50,000$ car i wouldn't be just dumping the stuff in and just wait till i have the money to get it right. if i had a beater than yea id do it. so basically what im saying is although it seems like this is a cheep solution that ANYONE can do,  its really not. if you have a cheeper car than yea its for you, if you have an expensive car, than you really need to do it 100% correct the first time... personally i wouldnt do it just becasue it draws so much from the alternator i dont think it would do much... and im already spraying methanol, have no egr, and have 3 more pounds of boost than it was tuned for, so i already have quite a handfull to tune as it is. in case your wondering, no my truck inst finely tuned, it runs like crap the tune is so far out of wack its ridiculous, thats why i always like to give people the heads up on how important it is to have a properly functioning tune. mine is so crappy that it runs pig rich before boost and then goes leen ontop under boost. before i got the headers sealed up i was getting 8mpg. sealing up the headers (correcting the 02 sensors reading) put me up to 10mpg(still runs like crap tho, still rich), so you can see how very important is is that the ecm knows whats going on...

keeping my foot out of it does nothing for my mpg, it runs so rich that basically if i keep my foot out of it it just runs rich and the fuel comes right out the tailpipe(black smokes like a diesel when i nail it :o), if i sink my foot into it im just using the fuel. iv tested ti time and time again, my mpg doesn't fluctuate AT ALL, once i get the tune dialed in tho, then keeping your foot out of it will make the difference...

 it just pisses me off when i get called a know it all, or my advice is just "blah blah blah anyway comments"... i couldn't help but call them ignorant after getting that for trying to help...

Oh come on, admit you are just trolling now with this. LOL

 Oh crap...yes Jack....AGAIN... :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :Clap.gif...this has got to stop. ;D

 :o ... wow, just forget i ever said anythign and move on.

Is this the same system www.runyourcarwithwater.com (http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com) This guy is out of clearwater.

I would really like to hear how the programmer works out in your truck when you start making realtime adjustments. I am thinking of getting the same one.

Have you run it in a 1/4? I would imagine correcting the ECU will knock two seconds off what ever it does now. If you manage 18MPG and 12's I might run the same setup. ;)


So how is the Wackermobile doing? You getting 30MPG towing a fifthwheel or what? Don't keep us in the dark.

Didnt do much driving since I filled up friday.
 

We can only hope, geez do u ever stop. Rest assured there are more experienced peeps on here than you, so give it a rest junior.

well iv learned my lesson. dont try and help anyone or give advice, isnt that the point of a forum tho? not this forum...

i can feel a pretty hard bashing coming on :-[

If you are smart enough to know what works and dont work surely your smart enough to know these people are at least as smart as you, so give it a rest. Go pat yourself on the back and call it a day, geezus ::)
Well except for DigBaddy of course, but he sure can cut and paste articles for good literate responses with correct english etc.... :N

Stop highjacking this thread with BS, the Kid has an Opinion just like you. Back to the testing


First day project Jeep TJ: New plate system heating up to 158' amps when to 30 not good. Mix look like it was boiling and heating up the hoses. I lower the mix in the fluid and rewired the system with a relay. I the rush to get the system up and running a used the wiring and switch from the off road light. The wiring was to small to handle the surge of amp going into the unit. I,m going to lower the mix in the unit to bring down the temp and the amps.

On a good note..... the ECU control unit worked without a problem, I have come up with a different plan for another control unit that will work better than the first. I will build it today and start testing the unit ASAP, It will give me more control over the ECU and MAP/MAF with a new pulse signal going into the ECU.

Test 2:

Improvement from 15.5 to 21.9 MPG............ 40.6 miles on 1.85 gals of gas. remember people this is on a Jeep with 4:88 running gears and 35" tires  ;D  and the engine is still in its clean up mode.

Nice!

I will be putting it on my 99 Sierra 4X4 with 7" lift and 35" tires next week, right now I get 12-13 MPG.

sounds great! what all do you have on the truck now? the map sensor fooler or something?

this could be something i do once i get all my tunning stuff, since i have to tune anyway, i could see maximum benifits. i just need to learn a bit more about it...

Frank you have my number, call me if you need help.

I,m sending a 4.5 volt signal to the ECU from the oxy sensor, at that voltage the ECU is thinking the mix is correct. 

I am gonna check Wackers setup out this weekend. I have airad intake,exhaust,superchips,35's and 430 gears in my dually. I wonder if the superchips will interfere with the results.

Chevy, chime on in, I am not against to listening to all opinions.

Thanks I will if I have a question.

The Chip is increasing your fuel input and controlling your management system in the ECU. The hydrogen burning will bring the oxygen count up in the exhaust system so the oxy sensor pick up on this and adds more fuel to the mix. So you have to run a oxy sensor control to fool the ECU. I have a new control I will test this weekend that will fix that problem. 

When are you going to try a diesel?

Thanks BD for the updates

Yes, have one build of a 2002 3500 duramax. He should have it install this weekend, but all high output systems need to be fine tune.

Thanks Tony

Just a though when tricking the ecu to flow less gas you need to keep up on your mix to ensure the same flow ... also the system will produce less hho when its not warmed up.  My worry is if you solutions folds on you just how lean will you be running the motor .... and how much better mpg's are you getting when you tune for the HHO .... i should be installing a system on a 4 cyl Toyota Camry this weekend and im trying to decide if the tuning will be worth it

So far Bushwacker's 6.0L Turbo Diesel is getting 9+mpg gains!!!  :o :o :o

Where has Bushwacker been? What happend to the pics?

If the generator fail or runs low in fluid which will bring the hydrogen down you will notice a rough idle and lack of power. The new control unit will have a green light when the generator is running just for the reason.

Thats just the beginning, wait till he fine tunes the generator.

When you are criticized enough, what's the point in sharing? ???

Richy Rich, check the mpg results @ home ;) Once I drive to & from RR this weekend loaded up I will post some results.

You can't take the nay sayers personally. Just ignore them. I want to see those pics again.

I will give everyone the philosophy I live by and if you live by it life will be better.

If you realize that 95% of people are either stupid, inconsiderate, retards or just plain buttholes, life gets better.

I don't expect anything good from people I don't know so when the inedible happens I'm not dissappointed or surprised. If something positive happens it's a bonus.

When you say running do you mean simply knowing is power is going to it or are you planning on using a flow meter? The rough idle and lack of power are obvious but im wondering just how lean are you running it. Im thinking long term ... like should you be starting the system before starting the car to allow it to start actually producing, is a flow meter needed to know when the production starts to drop ect

I,m check amps going into the unit to check effective, light comes on at 10 amps. Again that after you fine tune the generator.

Damn Big Daddy, you are the man.

After reading all about circuits and other ways to modify the ECU I have decided to go this route:

http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/

I almost laughed my azz off when I saw this rom emulator is supported for my 93 ECU. http://secure.transtronics.com/osc/product_info.php/cPath/56/products_id/329

I have one somewhere with my old time C-band satellite programming crap and a really old 27Cxx series eprom programmer plus a homemade UV eraser with about 50 hips that fit in the ECU. The PC that runs that stuff is a 286sx16 if that tells you how old it is. After reading up on the programming set it looks like a piece of cake to mod the computer for HHO and some more MPG at any rate.

http://www.geocities.com/ecmguy.geo/bruce/prog_101.html

I can't believe it is a Motorola 6803. My first computer was based on the 6809 and coding with it was a breeze.

All in all, I have to say the blower guy was right to some extent. A proper modification of the computer is certainly going to get you more MPG, but with the above procedure you could easily lean out the motor and melt the heads as easily as a potentiometer on the O2 sensor feedback. I do believe modifying the ECU at the rom level is the way to go for maximum MPG and power with or without the HHO gas.

Thanks to Yunt and everyone who contributed to this thread.

ok, now im very interested in this but i will be tunning my truck anyways so i need to know what to tune for for this stuff.

what EXACTLY is this doing, what fuel exactly are we making hear and what is the ideal air fuel ratio for it, same as gas or no?

From what I have read it is around 15.2 to 1 and sometimes even higher using the HHO. Supposedly it also causes combustion process to be cooler allowing an even leaner air fuel mixture. Personally I am just going to lean out my AF mix a bit at a time until it gets too hot. I am also going to try and get more advance than stock. I'm not sure what other parameters will be good for mileage you can change. I am going to see if someone has written a book Not to much on the web that I can find about actual parameters. I guess when someone does a bunch of trial and error it is for money, and they aren't giving it out for free.

One look at this screen shot will make you realise the potential of this software for coming up with the perfect programming for your specific vehicle in short order. Along with a pyrometer on the exhaust you should be able to get the very last MPG out of the motor safely in no time. Mind you, I am very new at this and still learning. If I melt my motor or fry my ECU it is no loss to me at all.

On one truck forum I was reading people are claiming 50HP and 4MPG increases with keyboard only ECU modifications on similar vehicles to mine. With an exhaust I could potentially see 21 MPG without even building the hydrogen gas generator if I can get the hang of this I think. It is an interesting project at any rate. I have thought about that computer many times through the years but never bothered to look it up.

(http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/images/TPWorkspace.gif)

this is definitly something i will be doing... ill just let you do all the trial and error ;)

but i need to get my truck tuned to run good normally first then ill definitely start playing around with that stuff, of course i will have to do a tone more reading on the subject and get a bit more educated on it first tho... just tunning my truck in general is going to be a real pain in the ass and iv been doing tons of reading on the subject for months and it still gives me a headache thinking about it...

Dont waste your money heres the plans
 
(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4159/pwmschematicfy6.gif)


People if you dont know what this is, then its over your head and look for help in building one.

Well i understrood some of it but back to my original questions.  From my understanding you are simply trick the ecu to believe you have the correct a/f ratio when you really dont.  It appears that you are just lowering the needed ratio a normal rpms ... where my concern come into play is higher rpms .... The motor will think it has the correct a/f mix and the generator wont be keeping up the the now greater demand those causing the engine to run lean .... scorched cylinders, melted heads, blah, blah, blah

Thats why im thinking letting the ecu make the minor changed that it can and be happy with those improvements is the way to go ..... Am i missing something  :dunno.gif

the only way you can really know for sure is to know the exact AFR that its supposed to have and tune with a wide band 02 sensor. the stock narrow band 02 sensor isn't really that accurate and i wouldn't trust it. however all these little ways of tricking the ecu will work, i wouldnt do it, but thats just me.

but remember, i have to do all the tunning stuff anyways, so why would i want to trick a tune that i tuned? lol. if your truck is bone stock than i guess doing the tricking the ecu deal wouldn't be to bad but i wouldn't feel to comfortable about it is all

The Diagram has a voltmeter so you can see true voltage coming from the oxy sensor and then make the adjustments. Simple and cheap


PS I just put 170 miles on the Jeep city and highway average MPG was 20.5. Not bad for a Jeep with 4:88 gears on 35 tires.

Yesterday I replaced my dead O2 sensor and cleaned up the frozen EGR. I also replaced the air cleaner and plugs. My mileage went from 13 to 18 already (verified by GPS). It feels exactly the same as far as driveability and power..?

On Tuesday I am going to burn the first of what I am sure will be many proms.... Optimum setting are probably not as easy to find as I initially thought, but it is certainly doable and peoples results are nothing to laugh at.

I found what might be the best site for anyone thinking of taking this route: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/ After an hour of reading over there I have a basic understanding of how the different settings interact with each other and what can help as well as hurt. I'm sure I will be making many posts there.

Here is a super easy circuit anyone can build that should prove very useful for anyone trying to gauge the true performance of HHO or making ECU mods.

(http://winaldl.joby.se/interface.gif)

Everything you wanted to know about diagnostic and logging software, along with some cables you can buy instead of build. http://www.aldlcable.com/

All in all, what I have learned so far is before you think about anything related to mileage, stick a paperclip in that there magical connector, read the trouble codes and fix all the problems you find before wasting your time on anything else. I have no doubt my 8,000lb 350 powered 4x4 will see 25+ MPG on the highway without adding a hydrogen generator or anything aftermarket. I can only imagine what an open element aircleaner, headers and a new freeflowing exhaust would add.  Maybe with the money I save on gas I can afford it. ;)

Again, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

That schematic is pretty much worthless without the accompanying notes. How about the link to where it came from?

I would suggest installing this: http://www.atlanticspeed.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=3852&idcategory=0 to anyone attempting that sort of modification.

I can't see why anyone would want to bother with something like that when the ECU is already in place and is just itching to do what you tell it..? Dang, next I will be pushing superchargers up in here.

How would that work went water flow thru the exhaust and lowers your exhaust temp? I have water dripping from my exhaust.

The oxy sensor is reading the oxy count from the exhaust all ready and its easier just to read the voltage from the sensor. I personal do not want to have my laptop connected to my car as I drive to make the adjustment's. You cant burn a program into the factory chip so the laptop does the same thing my box does without the fancy screen. If you plan to reprogram the ECU by burning your own chip, better make sure that your chip in the ECU is removable. 

Oh; take the schematic to radio shack, maybe they can help you get the parts need to build it. After you have them call me or come over the shop. 

I was checking out http://www.mpgaccelerator.com/ and according to them you don't have to do all that technical crap.

I would install the bung as close to the head as possible. I just drilled and welded one into the exhaust manifold of my buddies 'hot rod' turbo Ford Focus exhaust manifold with no problem. Unless that water is coming from a cracked block or head it isn't going to interfere with anything. Your water is actually a byproduct of combustion, and just superheated gasses until they condenses in the muffler and drip out the tail pipe.  If I were playing with the AF ratio on a $30,000 rig I would consider a way to make sure I wasn't melting the block on the highway a necessity.



My vehicle is ODB1, I have no choice but to log the data, copy/modify the stock bin and burn it to a prom. heck, I could skip the logging part but I think it would take years to find a nice set of parameters. Fortunately I have hundreds of 27C128,256 and 512 eproms from the big dish days along with an eraser and burner. I wish I could access the ECU programming through the connector, but on the other hand my style system is very well  documented and thousands of people are already doing ECU tuning and post about it like crazy on a few forums, plus I already have a working knowledge of the ECU's processor and architecture. Another nice incentive besides my personal MPG is two different performance mechanics I know are interested in someone being able to modify parameters for these 85-95 computers in house without having to send data logs out and swap chips three or four times to get what they want. I can almost smell money to be made with this knowledge.
 [/quote]


I already have everything to build this circuit in my junkbox except the MOSFET. If you can find a tard at Rat Shack that could tell the difference between a capacitor, diode or resistor by looking at them I would be seriously surprised, symbols on a schematic...HAHAHAHAAH..They have trouble with batteries these days. ;)

I have no intention of building this circuit, but I would like to read the theory of operation and the designers notes. It looks very easy to construct and could possibly help many people who are interested in this route but aren't an EE. As of now we don't know how to determine the proper value for R8, or even how to connect this to a vehicles ECM or test for proper operation.

Lets see the link that this device originates from, if only to credit the designer.

If you ask me, that page looks like the guy wants to sell books and mason jars. ;) $97 for information that is freely available on the net is insane. Look at Bushwackers system, you could build that for about $10 without that guys books.

I agree on that, why pay?  Jack the design came from Jose our Motorola tech, if you want come by and you can talk to him about his design.   Back to your ECU, are you able to pull the chip?

check this out

http://cgi.ebay.com/KWP-2000-PLUS-ECU-FLASHER-REMAPPING-TOOL_W0QQitemZ320255447959QQihZ011QQcategoryZ32053QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

As a matter of fact, no. It is in a memcal. Bah.

Are you using that circuit on the jeep? How do you know when it is too lean? How long can you make hydrogen before the generator gets too hot? I am looking forward to adding that once I have the computer down, so it will actually do something for me.

I'll tell you, I like the ODB port as well. I think I am going to get a cheap laptop for the truck and make it permanent so I can make a graphical gauge cluster on one of those cheap 7" lcd screens attached to my dash. Be nice for mp3's as well. SOme of the PC software out there is very cool for realtime monitoring. I can't believe I never knew about this.

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/kr-yppy/ecu/IMG_0322.jpg)

I am going to put paperclips in the holes in the bottom of that module, so they reach the socket on my burner to read it. I suppose I am going to remove the chip and put a ZIF socket there because I really don't want to erase that original, and I figure I am going to have a few different programs for the highway and the mudhole before this is over.

Here is where they hide it on these style GM trucks:

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/kr-yppy/ecu/IMG_0320.jpg)

Another shot of it.

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/kr-yppy/ecu/IMG_0321.jpg)

Sweet, our money is worth more than Australia's.

That thing looks very cool for people with newer vehicles and ODBII. I'm not sure how much I like the incircuit flashing and inability to emulate with these computers though. I have fried enough satellite receivers to know this can happen for no real reason sometimes. If I was building a new motor for anything fast I would use the ECM and TBI from a mid 90's 454 I do believe. I never realised what people were out there doing with them.

Each generator is different, it depends on the plates and the mix. But mine runs all day long without over heating. I,m using 9 plate design with 4 tablespoons of bake soda mix in a gallon of water, if the unit draws too much amps bring down the mix till you get it right. 

An fuel milage updates from this weekend.

Jeep went 170 miles highway driving and avg 20.5 MPG. Remember it as 4:88 gears, so it not the best for highway driving.   

Fascinating stuff. 

BigDaddy, what mpg did you start off with on your Jeep, before adding the HHO?

best was 15.5

oxy sensor mod

oopps..... this may help ;D
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6546/controllerhx1.gif)

Basically because there are other LAZY people like me on here, IF you were willing to build another system for someone (me), how much would you charge?

$1799.00   ;D

x2, I got a ranger on 35's with 4.88's and I'm getting 15 at best...I'd love 20 :)

I'll pay for the kit (obviously) I just want a nice one thats done right...if you don't want to build another for either one of us, or both, is there a right direction we could be pointed in.  I did my research, but I can't stand electronics, I just don't really like messing with them.

If you can snorkel a quad you can build a hydrogen generator for sure. Depending on the year of your vehicle it may just work great without modifying anything.

Theirs alot more than installing the generator to a gas engine (diesel from 2007 and down, pre clean diesel are plug and play systems), the newer the car/truck the harder it is. Theirs alot of sensors that need to be readjusted. I should have the 07 F150 done in two weeks with all the goodies done to the system ( big HHO generator, MAF, IAT, CTS and the oxy sensors all setup to work on New hydrogen system. If it was easy ever one would have done it by now.

Jack that your one oxy sensor setup, it will add .5 volts to the wire going back to the ECU and lean the eng down to adjust for the extra oxygen in the exhuast.. Will not hurt or super lean the eng, it just add the extra voltage to the current voltage at the sensor.

I can work on a bike no problem, I just hate electrical and messing with my engine


Basic question I have is...could I just make a REALLY basic hydrogen generator and not use the 02 sensor change...I'd rather not do it for now.  Would I have any gains?

I'm sure I could make the HHO generator, just not so sure aobut the electrical.  I can wire it up and put an LED on it and so forth, but i was thinking just throw that into my intake tube (the HHO gas).  Would I see any gains?

It's a 2002 ford 3.0 ranger

for us lazy people i found this site http://www.xo1ox.net/hho/shop/ and this one http://mindstrain.com/ and this also .         
http://www.protiumfuelsystems.com/optimizer.html  hope they help .this last one is a vid of a little vmu a guy is making looks good . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA72J_lN8MY

You going to have to put an extender on the oxygen sensor to get it out of the exhaust stream. The Hydrogen make more oxygen has it burns, making the ECU dump more fuel. = NO GAIN in MPG!

Cheaper on e-bay

I can control it at the ECM now. ;)

I find it funny my truck, and probably most GM vehicles have a built in highway mode that kicks the timing forward and leans it out to the 15.5 to 1 range over a set speed, mine was set at 255 MPH so it would never actually kick in and increase the NOx a bit. Some tuners are saying it is good for 3-5MPG on the highway.

It will be interesting to see if hydrogen actually can increase my MPG after squeezing the very last bit of MPG's possible out before adding it.

Are you driving the same way you were before or lighter? I know I am driving very lightly and can probably account for 2-3 savings with my foot alone...

I still driving like I stolen it..... Went you put hydrogen in your air mixture it will increase the oxygen count in the exhaust. The oxygen sensor picks up this and dump more fuel into the engine think its running lean. By installing the unit it will add .5 voltage to the current oxygen sensor signal. So the oxygen sensor still working its cycle but always lean on the mixture. It also as a switch to turn off the unit to bypass it.

ON THE 3.0 RANGER YOU WILL NEED THE EXTENDERS 3 OF THEM , 1 EACH SIDE OF EXHAUST BEFORE CAT AND 1 AFTER CAT AND THEN YOU SHOULD SEE LIKE 7-8 MPG'S AFTER ABOUT 1 MONTH OF CONSTANT USE, ATLEAST THATS WHAT I'M GETTING25-26 MPG'S AND I WAS GETTING 17-18 BEFORE USING AND I HAVE 2 GENERATORS HOOKEP UP NOW

You dont need one on the down side of the exhaust, that rear sensor only check if the cat is bad.

Necessity spurns innovation, that is for sure.


Check this out: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222095427.htm

I will be installing my 4 cell system either tomorrow or Sunday. It depends on when my friend has time to weld me up a mount. I just finished putting them together.

dang frank that look good, what are you install them on?

Thanks

I'm putting it on my 99 Sierra, 4X4, 5.3L, that is lifted on 35s. It gets 12-13 MPG right now.

Sweet Bring it over

What are you going to do to the FI system?

I have spacers for the O2 sensors. I'm injecting the gas after the MAF sensor. I don't know about the MAP sensor. I will see what happens. I might add the O2/MAF controller later.

Do you have a MAP or MAF sensor?

Do you have a MAP or MAF sensor?

Where can you get one that works and not cost an arm and a leg?

It cost about $35.00 for a dual (city and highway)and $25.00 for a single to make

Way to go BD sounds like you have this thing figured out !!!!!!

I have both.

does water for gas really work? lol

You have the one thats both together on the same unit. Is it a 5.0 (305) or a 5.7 (350), I didn't know there was a 5.3?

For that unit you install a resistor in the ground wire, between 10 to 15 ohm is the normal and 30 ohm Max. 

where can I get the dual for 35.00

Better than this........... Assume the position!





(http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5683/avatargasai9.jpg)

You have to build one, if you want me to build one for you...... well thats a different story.

1999 and up the Sierra and the Silverado 1500s no longer had a 5.0 305 or a 5.7 350. It went to a 4.3 V6, 4.8 V8 or a 5.3 V8. The MAP sensor is seperate from the MAF.

lmao so it does work?

Here are the mounts we came up with. There wasn't room to put all four on the same side of the engine. Two will be on the drivers side and 2 on the passengers side. I still have to wrap them in foam. I will show installed pics later.

Looks good Frank

Can you use recycled beer, instead of just water?

I still want big daddy to make me one!!!

BD, in 1999, GM built both, the old body dtyle truck and the new body style truck. He has the new body style. Good job TRX.

Thanks

here it is...... one of first extra Map/Maf controller up for sale for all those rocket scientist playing with HHO. I have $35.00 in parts and will sell sell it for $45.00 plus shippping.
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9466/080601075248ip5.jpg)
 

Deluxe model with two settings

simple to install.... cut the signal wire and connect the brown and green wire in this place......good to go!




(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8427/080601075311nr4.jpg)

Sold......... In the next few day, I will build more units for does that want one. send me a PM if you want one

Check out this cheap one on e-bay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MAP-sensor-enhancer-hydrogen-generator-water4gas-HHO_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46097QQihZ001QQitemZ110256290716QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW#ht_500wt_0

Nice Big Daddy.
So, since we're getting you closer to a BIG DADDY HHO KIT, how much for the other components and what is the list of stuff needed?
Map Tuner
HHO Assembly
O2 extender(s)
Instuctions
what else??

The controller on the link you provided shows one switch and one dial.  What are the TWO swtches and dials on your control?
I feel so HHO illiterate :-[

adjustments for city driving and highway driving, after you dial in your settings you can switch from city to highway by moving the lower switch ( up for highway and down for city)

I have also some extra oxygen extenders for $3.50 each plus shipping  Free shipping to all Contributing Member Plus
YFI.... The ones with the taper end will leak at the pipe. Use only the ones with the crush washers


http://cgi.ebay.com/o2-oxygen-sensor-extender-EFIE-for-HHO-Boosters_W0QQitemZ300228798465QQihZ020QQcategoryZ88433QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Slight rain delay so I will post the pictures I have so far.

WHOOOOO HOOOOOOOO it's raining!!!! Sorry had to do that.

These are one side installed.

Here is the other side ready to be fitted in.

Nice Frank, but dont forget the bubbler.

Thanks.

When they are daisy chained together you only need a bubbler in one of the cells. It isn't to make bubbles it is to let air in at a slow rate so you get the maximum amount of HHO gas and the lids don't get sucked in from the vacuum.

Here it is all done.

First pic is the drivers side. Second one is passengers side.

Big Daddy clean out your PM box, it's full.

Ok its clean

I'm buying one now off ebay, it's the water4gas system.

I know I need the 02 sensor extendors, but is that it? I know I keep saying it, but I don't understand all this electrical!!!!

Don't forget an extra quart of snake oil.  ;)

 ;)

scratch that...no ebay for me...I"m getting something WAY better :)

Keeping this on up top. Any more results.

I havent NOT towed anything lately.Last decent run was about 250 mile round trip towing 20' heavy equip trailer with 2 Rhinos,4 168 qt coolers ice,generator etc..........Avg 14 mpg, with a 03 6.0 dually. Its up considerably from 9.I had about 125 miles on it & have been hauling every day this week. So will keep you posted.

You driving the same, or using a lighter right foot? 5MPG is a pretty nice improvement if it is from the HHO alone.

Running 70 on tpke. Heavy foot to get rolling,trying to keep it around 2300 rpm. Trailer rig ways approx 8k lb.

still 20+ on the jeep, just a few day away from finishing the F150

thats awesome! I gottta get on the HHO!!! Big daddy, where do I sit on your list?

I'm about 1/2 way through my 1st tank of fuel since the install. I definitely see an increase in mileage. I will post my gains soon.

We have another Winner!  ;D

I'll have mine in this week :)

I got a scangauge too so I'll post results of before MPG and after MPG both on scangauge and vs actual miles driven

I got all hooked up.

Now I'm just wonderin about the MAP sensor aduster.  I have a MAF on my truck, so can I use it for the 02 sensors or the MAF sensor? I don't even know what wire it is, I lost my haynes manual.

Is there anyone who has alldata or anything that can look it up? I'd appreciate it.  I just need to know the wire for the MAF sensor (the sensor wire), there should be 5 or 6 all together.

You will like this:
http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/CleanMAF.html

I'm on that site :)

I'm still confused tho, it's looking like sensor 36 would be it...but then 88 puts out variable voltage as well!

Big Daddy built the circuit you need I think. It appears the ECU is looking at C & D in the connector at the MAF for around 0 - 2v One positive, one negative. A & B power it. I would bet some sort of factoring is done for this voltage at the computer like in a GM computer. I'm not sure if you want to add or subtract from this value to lean out the mixture a bit, but that is where you would do it.

I think you can program everything on that truck through the ODB2 port. I would go that direction. It is way more fun. ;)

(http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/images/massairflow2.gif)

The one that goes to the oxygen sensor is different than the one for the MAP/MAF   

If the plug look like the one Jack posted its the RTNMAF wire you have to cut. The lower the voltage the leaner it gets. Too low and it will set off your CEL. 

Has anyone done this on a Trailblazer? I'd love to try it out but with how particular the electrical system is on this truck, I'd almost be afraid. It doesn't need to run anymore lean than it already does.

First question is do you have for the HHO generator?

I filled up this morning.

14.3 MPG was 12-13 so that's 10%-20% increase. It definitly feels like I don't have to get on it as much to get it/keep it rolling. I know Ron's mileage got better on the second tank full. We will see what happens. Then I will start adding electronics.

Great Frank...... I'll have the rest of the parts need to finish my oxygen sensor Mod on Wednesday and will install it on the F150 that day. I'm going to start with one item at a time. install it , fine tune it and then more to the next one which will be the IAT and ECT sensors.   

Why do you need to mess with the coolant temp sensor?

Adding 10 degrees to the sender make it seem its running hotter and lean the mix, also with the intake air temp

Big daddy i noticed that you have a tj. I also have a tj and am planning on putting the hydrogen system on my jeep as soon as Wednesday but i was wondering if you had installed the system on your jeep and if you have, what kind of gains have you been seeing and do you have any suggestions before I install.  Is it completely necessary to get the map sensor enhancer something to trick the oxygen sensor

Welcome to the site.  ;D


I get about 20+ MPG on the TJ after installing the HHO system, before the best was 15 MPH. My generator is located under the master Cly, remove the extra battery cover and your go to go. Yes you need the map and oxy enhancer to fine tune the system. Good Luck 

Got mine in but no big tests yet. Still need to measure and fine tune everything, but it is working. BigDaddy let me know when you get the electronics done for the f150. I have an f250 with the 5.4 in it and would like to get that taken care of if you would build me something or give me some advice.

Looks good!!

Looks good, keep us updated

How many amps is realistic with one generator. I did not test for amperage but I put in a 7.5 amp fuse and it blew after about a mile.

is that f350 super duty gas or diesel?

The one that Bushwacker has is a diesel.

Mine that I posted is gas

diesel

suzukitrash, You need get a 22k resistor from radio shack, PM me when you have it.

I will pick it up teusday. Do I just need 1 ?

them come in a pack of 6 for 99 cent. yes, you will only need one. ;)

Figures I looked around the house and have 220 and 2.2K but no 22K >:(

i have a 2003 f350 super duty diesel.  I am going to get a map sensor and a map sensor enhancer.  4 o2 extenders and a 3 pack from water for gas specs.  Will i get a big mpg gain and also i heard that its 2 stage injection will that effect any thing?

Went through a tank of gas without the resistor and no mileage increase or anything. Next I will try the resistor on the maf and post any results.

Good luck in finding those oxygen sensors on a pre 2008 diesel engine.

why good luck finding those oxygen sensors? do they not have any or are they really hidden?

since hooking up my 2nd unit to my 3.0 v6 ford ranger w/5speed I m doing like 28-29 mpg now , I also added 2 stainless steel plates to both units and that helped considerably, before the hho I got like 17-18mpg then after 1 hho I got 25-26 and w2 units its doing great

Do you mean 4.0 or 3.0 ranger or did you swap a diff motor? JW since I got a ranger myself I'm pretty into rangers...

Ford actually made two V6 engines for the ranger. A 3.0 and a 4.0

Diesel don't not have oxygen sensors before 2008

how do you know that?  a mechanic told me that it did.  but maby he thought i said gas? are you sure about that?

Big D is right............mechanic is wrong.

My mechanic showed me his on a bronco II, He said that he is getting about 8-9 mpg better( city driving) than before the water for gas, But he was going to tune it a little more to see if it gets better.
They were also installing one on a 07` dodge diesel tonight. If I hear any results I`ll post them.

SO then i don't need to get a map sensor and a map sensor enhancer?  what do i need besides the hho generator?

I know ;)

I own a 3.0.  I know quite a bit about rangers...

They also made two versions of the 4.0, 2 versions of the 2.3, a 2.5, a diesel, 3.0 flex fuel, 3.0 non flex...what else you wanna know :)

And a transmission for every kind...4.0 and 2.3 use same transmission, 3.0 uses its own (both auto and manual), they only made 2 different tcases, auto/manual bw3051 IIRC...I may be wrong though :)

I was just wondering what kind of 3.8...seeing as I don't recall a 3.8 being stock...unless he has a 4.0 and is counting the ACTUAL size

NOPE JUST TYPED THE WRONG SIZE IT IS A 3.0

Update F150 when from 14.4 to 19.6 MPG and soon 20+  ;D

Nice

bump

We downloaded the books from http://www.water4gasdownloads.com site. We are still in the reading faze, must say that the diy conversion looks much harder than stated on the main page, it would be great to here about actual mileage improvements from other Water4Gas members.

hey guys i just installed a 3 cell water4gas arrangement in my truck i had it in a parallel design and i blew the 10 amp fuse right away but was making a okay amount of hho.  now they are all in a series and it is working with a 10 amp fuse but is barely making hho at all.  How do you suggest i wire this?

Do you have baking soda in the jars?

ZOBEL the more baking soda you put in the more amps it will draw, you need to have an AMP meter in line from the battery to generator to set the proper electrolyte levels, example: start with straight distilled water then add a 1/4 teaspoon  to each bottle and let it mix a bit then watch for it to raise the AMP's.
Once you hit's 15 AMP's don't put any more soda in, If it goes over 15 amps just pour off some water and add new water to dilute it.
If you really want to use a good electrolyte go to Home Depot and get some Lye or buy some KOH from some online store https://www.saltcitysoapworks.com/store/store.php (https://www.saltcitysoapworks.com/store/store.php) cause it makes the most and best gas.
I have wired the bottles in series and parallel so no matter water way you do it it will work, I did find that if you put then in parallel they produce much more gas .

I was blowing fuse's also so went to discount auto and got a 30 amp relay and haven't blown a fuse yet, I also know that the more stainless you have in the water the more hho it produces, I purchased some stainless wall plates and modified them to fit the rods and wow what a difference, that is what started blowing the fuses also and then got the relay

Hey I'm just jumping in on the end of this thread. I have a 96 F-150 with a 302 and I bet it gets 10 gallons per mile and I'm sick about it as my temp job is a 45 minute drive each way.  :'(

Is there something I can do to it just shy of burning it to the ground to get better gas milage? The tires are correct psi and the air filter is clean.

I started out with that CRAP that Water4Gas sells and within a week I removed it and built a monster generator with 9 plates in a Plexiglas housing and no matter what size you have if you place the plates in water { no electrolyte} will not draw any if little Amp's till you put in an electrolyte {Baking soda , KOH or Lye} and the more you add the more amp's it will draw so size has little to do with Amperage draw, optimum draw is 15 amp's {but you can push up to 20 if hard wired and fused to the battery with relay to engage} so as to not burn out your fuse box or melt the wires to the generator also use 10 gauge wire to the generator to minimize the voltage drop and heat buildup.
 

i have 1 teaspoon per each jar and ive tried a series and parallel and i did notice a increase in gas when using parallel but it just blew the 10 amp fuse.  I have a 2003 f350 6.0 diesel super duty and i noticed a little increase in mileage when i first installed it but now i am actually getting worse mileage than i have with out the water4gas system.  I have a map sensor enhancer but never installed it because i am worried that some thing could happen to my engine if it was running to lean.  what should i do?  Thanks, Brent