ATV Florida Forum

For all you South Florida ATV riders – the very last place to legally ride in has just been SHUT DOWN! Effective July 1st of this year, ATV’s have been banned from the Holey Lands, Rotenberger, and Francis S. Taylor Wildlife Management Area’s of the Everglades. But here’s the kicker – Swamp Buggies and Airboats are still allowed to have fun out there!!! WE MUST TAKE A STANCE! In December of 2007 the commission tried to pass this rule and 31 people and 11 organizations said NO. Then, all of a sudden it was voted on again in February, only 2 months later, and it magically passes! There’s something shaddy going on here. AND THEY NEVER TOLD THE PUBLIC ABOUT THE MEETING! I’m urging you to please contact the FWC (Florida Fish and Wildlife Commisioners) and express your concerns, frustrations, and how unfair it is to discriminate against ATV’s and not buggies/airboats! We ride the trails that they’ve already created and they say we’re the ones destroying the land!

Here’s the guy you’ll want to talk to: Chuck Collins, 561-625-5131.
Here’s the news release from the FWC: http://myfwc.com/whatsnew/08/south/News_08_S_ATVRules.htm

the FWC is the biggest crooks in the FL goverment!  they take our $$$$ to open and manage areas and in turn close them...  we need to file a class action law case , how can a ATV do wetland damage and a FULL TRACK  doesnot?   :o ..this whole offroad sticker user fee crap is doing nothing for us..  other than stealing money from our sport...  the FWC doesnt know how to control there areas , they let the place go into mayhem , instead of taking control of it..  FWC will always take the easy way out , there answer to everything TO CLOSE IT DOWN!!    just like what happen in NAPLES{ GOLDEN GATES}.. this off road green sticker has cause more area closing then opening..  Watch out FWC  we comming to BULL CREEK next to tear it up  , FWC you better get to voting soon you lazy b@sterds,OVER 400K ATVerS in FL  WE WILL RIDE , we not going away!!!! >:(

They will shut the doors on all the atv riders, and then the fwc toolbags will be riding around on quads enforcing the laws. good thing thats not hypocritical or anything right. they suck.

we still have l-cross, c&r, semi-anual, and 2 other unnamed spots. 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but YES ATV's do cause damage to the environement.  If you don't believe it, look at holey lands.  It's torn, rutted, and holed up.  Not like it used to be.

Um, not sure where you've been hiding but, this has been published for some time. The meetings were well advertised along with the proposed rule changes. So, the new regulations were properly present4ed prior to election, the meetings were posted and public comment was allowed.......sorry man. You're way too late.

The FWC didn't do a good job publicizing this rule change and I'd like to know how two months ago it overwhelmingly did NOT get passed, then all of a sudden they re-word it to ban ATV's only and it passes. I'm not saying ATV's don't destroy the everglades, but that's when not operated properly. I ask you this what good is the everglades if you can' t enjoy, explore and have fun. The FWC does need to do a better job at regulating out there. I posted this message to help bring awareness and try to get enough of us to stick together to try and overturn this rule or at least have the commission put it back on the ballot to get voted on again.

It was published just like every other proposed rule change has been published for 10 years. It's done very well and quite open. In addition, the vote was done properly at an open meeting that was advertised equally well. Needless to say, they're not going to re-vote any time soon. The Holylands are closed and that's that. Hate to say I told you so but.....

Honestly, I've got mixed emotions on the whole thing. On one hand, I hate to see any riding areas close. However, with the amount of riff raff and idiots the Holylands were beginning to attract, I am not so sure it wasn't a good idea to close it to ATV's. Nearly all of the private camps had been vandalized and broken into by ATV riders; almost 100% of the legal violations and arrests in the Holylands involved ATV riders over the past few years and just about every accident/injury reported in the Holylands over the past few years involved an ATV. 

The Big Cypress is next. Already things are getting worse. I just read an e mail from a friend who witnessed several guys on sport bikes getting their bikes registered for the Big Cypress. (the speed limit is 15mph all over the Big Cypress so, why would you need a sport bike and full race gear like these guys had?) Later the same day, he encountered this group of guys on one of the designated rock trails. They came flying around a corner and barely avoided crashing into his Buggy. These are the folks that will close the Big Cypress to ATV use. Again,  it's kind of hard to argue with the reasoning.

Do away with the ATV's and you do away with the problems. That's the attitude anyway. Can't say I blame them when you look at the facts. It's sad for all of us but very very true.

Why dont they just BAN the sport bikes ? They are the ones causing the problems..

I cant say all of them cause problems, but most of them.. A friend of mine rides a Banshee, but it is more of a trail bike, not a race bike..

I want to know what the $$ we pay to register the bikes goes to ? Obviously not securing LEGAL areas for us to ride our expensive toys..

Maybe a group of people should get together and buy a big lot of land and turn it into an ATV park... LOL  :P

I dont mind paying $10-15 to ride for a day, that is an entrance fee.. Rules would be posted all over and if your caught breaking them, you are escorted out and your bike make/model noted, and your banned from there..

Just my thought..

Tony

   Have you ever gone back out to the Hollylands after a big weekend?? All you see is Trash all over the place! The woods left on fire and distruction plant life. Oh ya let's not forget about the bunch of drunks running around with no concideration given to other people's safety and if you say something to somebody about cleaning up there garbage all they want to do is fight!  >:D  Face it how many times are you gonna trash my house before your not allowed back! This statement may not fit everybody but it fits alot that don't give a sh*t because they are here today and don't care about tomarrow. Well it finally came to a head tomarrow is here and we're all gone! So I guess we all should have thought about this alittle sooner! My .02 cents. Owning a 3 wheeler since 1983 and now owning quad's I have watched it happen time and time again. So we say call all the goverment officials to give us a place to ride they did we ruined it! Why buy us a place to ride when all were gonna do is trash it! Oh I forgot maybe after they buy the place for us to ride and then pay employee's to clean up after us when were done trashing it! Sounds like a lot of money!

Take a step back and look at yourself. If you fit this discription then don't look any farther than the end of your nose as to why this is happening!

I guess at this point we need to buy trailers to haul our quad's out of south Florida.

Hopefully we all learned something here. But I dout it.

Well put.

http://www.arra-access.com/campaign/subcommittee_hearing_mar13/e6i63nzh7b5e5t5?

FYI my entire group is made up of sport bikes, we buy sport bikes to have fun on them, in my opinion i find 4x4s boring in most things. the only idiots out there are the idiots in the parking lot and riding the levee all day. Don't forget how most of the drunks are all on 4X4s no offence. So seriously before you say something stupid about Banning sport bikes think for a second please. If anything should be banned it should be alchohol. Also the FWC isnt there nearly enough i've ridden at Holeylands like 7 or 8 times so far and i've seen the FWC or a cop there once and only once. and they penalized us for not having the right flags. Though later that day an idiot was sitting there doing donuts on his 4x4 needless to say he flipped it, rolled it over and did it again. No officer around... though i agree there are tons of idiots on sports bikes... don't penalize them all.

You guys act surprised,  it was like this for YEARS. Obviously this unrestricted ATV experiment failed.
Personally I blame sportbikes. HL's was no place for 2wd's.

It's funny how much this turned into a bashing contest ... If as much effort went into finding us a safe place to ride as it did into pointing the finger, then we probably would have a few places left to enjoy ourselves at.

The trash out there is EXTREMELY disturbing! In fact, I make it a point to pick cans up and put it in our pouch to take back with us. The drunks doing donuts on the levee are also EXTREMELY disturbing! But that's a handful of people (and it seems to be underage or barely legal kids) who go out there and don't have consideration for where they are and what they're doing. Needless to say, the don't face any consequences b/c there isn't anyone there enforcing rules. It doesn't cost that much money to have rules enforced (I thought that was the point of having FWC officers in the first place). And if governmental money is available to the FWC to help pay for the proper patrolling of this land and the damage done thus far, I say it doesn't hurt to tap into it.

As for plant damage -- the only reason this area has extensive plant damage is b/c it's the only drop in points. Once you go out on the trails their is NOT any damage to the surrounding plant life. (Oh, except on the north side where there's giant holes -- hence the name holey land -- that the government created for bombing practice). Did you know wildlife (like the endangered panther) use the trails out there to get around.  And us ATV's can only go so far, we aren't going to ride over the entire everglades. Let's talk about fire, fire is GOOD for the everglades and ATV's have nothing to do with starting it. And remember that swamp buggy that caught on fire about a year ago? Let me explain the cycle, once a fire burns the old plant life, the debris helps fuel and regenerate new life, life that tons of birds, insects and animals flock to for nourishment.

Anorignal where do you find the commission meetings publicized? I'm not trying to be offensive, I'd really like to know b/c maybe I just wasn't clued in. I also ask you this -- In December's meeting, 31 people and 11 organizations voted against the rule change and 3 individuals voted for the ban. How did it pass two months later?

I am surprised! Concrete has been poured over the everglades. Everyday civilization gets closer and closer. Water is being drained from the land as we speak. Why aren't the developers shut down or fined? In retrospect, b/c there are a handful of trouble makers and b/c the FWC wasn't successful at patrolling and regulating this very small area for us to enjoy ourselves at, we are punished.

 

I havent been to HL in many years, but I do have family who have some pretty nice camps out there in the glades.
The sport bikes are NOT all to blame. Do you really think the FWC cares if the sport riders kill themselves?
What they do care about are the people who have been using the glades responsibly for 30 years running airboats & tracks out there. These people have cried out to the FWC to do something about the atv's because the atv craze has led to many camps being vandalized & burglarized. These camps have been out there for many years before the original ATC90 & in the last 10 the problem got worse because the UTES finally got big & bad enough along with drought conditions to make it out to the camps. Now everyone & their friend has a UTE & can make it to the camps & beyond. Not all ute riders are bad, but with the #'s of people out there it only takes a few thieves to show up & ruin it for all!!!! Before now it was airboat & track territory only that far out.
I know for a fact that some of the well known airboat & track clubs down there have rallied for this closure to keep the thugs out of their camps when they are not there. The sport quads on the levee are just an excuse the ute riders want to use because they feel like they have a right out be out there. I dont know to many sport riders who would try to take their quad into the thick stuff to make it to the camps.
The quads are tearing up the airboat trails & track trails & it has come to a halt now.
Unless you are a camp owner you wouldnt understand. These guys have been out there forever & always took out what they took in. They have cherished the glades & the freedom out there, but now the thuglife has found their secret & they want it back!
Cant say that I blame them one bit.

Soflo:

The meetings and proposed rule changes were published in their normal reports available at any tax collectors office and online. They are not required to mail you or anyone else any notice unless specifically impacted or based upon a prior requiest. In addition, all the opposition in the world doesn't matter if the Board has enough of a compelling reason to change the rule. We (including those organizations against the rule change) do not get to vote on these things. Obviously, the FWC got sick and tired of babysitting the idiots that have come to congregate in the Holylands on ATV's over the past 5-6 years.

Also, this isn't a bashing contest and you're a bit late on your blanket comments about energy being thrown behind getting us a place to ride. You should do a little background post checking before making such commnets. The Holylands are gone, thats the end of it. Tons of us saw this coming a long, long time ago and kept warning people of the same. Nobody listened. The ATV community ruined the Holylands for themselves. Mark my words, there are more closures to come.

DEmon Boy:

Maybe you and your "crew" are not part of the problem. Good for you. However, just stop and ask any FWC officer what type of person and what type of bike caused the closure. I don't think anyone will be surprised when they hear the answer.

Keep in mind, the FWC is not there to hold everyone's hands and keep an eye out at all times for morons. They've not the time nor the funding to do so. Therefore, as I've said before, all they did was look at what common denominator the majority of their problems had in common and found that denominator to be ATVs. The solution was cheap and easy....ban ATVs. Pretty simple and I can't say I blame them one bit.

Especially with these tax cuts!! Police and firefighters are hurting! 

Heres the problem I see:

If they are only there certain times and certain days, I know which times for the most part, they are scheduled...then whats stopping people from riding?

I know for a fact:
1. They dont' have funding for OT to put a person at the entrance to enforce the closure
2. They don't have the personell available to monitor the closure
3. They don't have enough funding to hire more people (tax cut) to work the "entrance"
4. They will not monitor by air...they don't have the resources, they mooch off BSO's air support (I've never seen PBSO out there, but they might be)
5. They WILL be out there using their own resourses...undercover so to speak...but this means they are on an ATV!!!!

6. They will try to make examples out of people, that means HEAVY fines, bike confiscation, and trespassing NTA's (notice to appear in court)

The problem I see is...a lot of the people that ruined it for HL as a group, will be out there illigally riding.  FWC isn't there a lot of the time...so who's going to monitor it??? They have no arial support from BSO, they are too busy as it is doing SAR's and regular PD work.

So it's the same people who ruined it, that are going to be illigally riding there!!! And who's going to catch them when they are way out in the middle of nowhere???

Now one thing is for sure, I have way too much to loose to be riding recreationally out there illigally.  I may have said in the past I would ride out there...but I am in paramedic, trying to be a FF/paramedic...the last thing I need is an NTA for a few hours of mud riding...I"ll go to the ranch or L-Cross.  But at the same token...I'll be the first one on the volunteer SAR (search and rescue) team :) :) :)

I don't think i said "crew" i might be only 15 but im not one the people screwing around out there. My group (yes my GROUP) is of mostly adults anywhere from 30+ to young kids, most are sport bikes, some or UTEs. It is not as simple as "Ban Sport ATVs" this will continue to happen. Seriously stop bashing sport bikes and figure out something reasonable. Adults are always saying kids don't try to stand up for the sport well... here I am and i get treated like a hoodlum... I ride with a GROUP of people not "CREW" of misfits. I now realize how much of a help i have been... thank you for welcoming me to the real world. I blame UTEs! Yay now let everyone go and bash me! :-\

Again, never said you or your crew were part of the problem. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Again there you go again making fun of a child, I find "crew" to be more of an inapropriate word more along the lines of a gang. And seriously, stop being so rude.

Get over yourself there Demonthingy. Sorry your feelings got hurt. I am sure you and your crew are not part of the problem. Really makes no difference now.

Ugh typical jerk. I am sure you are the main part of the problem, i'm not dealing with idiots like you anymore. I am done.

P.S. I know my "crew" (GROUP) isn't part of the problem. Though I am sure in your idiotic state of mind you will keep rambling on about this.

I am sorry if i hurt your feelings.

So go ahead and keep attemping to hurt mine. Because as hard as you have tried every attempt has miserably failed. Good job.  ;D

Good Lord kid. What is wrong with you?  :K ViO

Soflo:

Check out this link that was posted on this site back in early December 2007. It's the proposed rule changes from the FWC, including the Holylands rule changes. As you can see, the proposed changes were published way back in August 2007.

Also, the discussion on the proposed changed started in mid 2006. Interestingly enough, all of this information was available for the asking and the FWC sought comments on proposed rule changes all along (which they do every year).

Sucks, I know. But, it's done and over now.

http://myfwc.com/commission/2007/Dec07/Documents/Prop2008-09DraftRulesforWildlifeandFreshwaterFishPPTAgendaItem4B1and2.pdf

He apparently doesn't like you referring to his riding group as crew. Come on anoriginal, you're obviously a respectful guy with his stuff straight, and all in the intention of bettering the atv community, but just respect his wishes. How would you feel if I called your kid a punk, even though he is most likely not. If you confronted me and asked me to stop, it would be the respectful thing to do.

Also, pertaining the 2x4 vs 4x4 thing. Most enviromentalists dont classify the problem as a " sport atv, utility atv" problem, they just say atv in general. So thats why ATV's are being banned from Holeylands, not just the sports.

If a Fwc officer would sit at the entrance of the parking lot for the peak riding hours, I guarentee that most of the foolish, idiotic riding would stop, because thats where it happens.

If that hurt his feelings, he needs thicker skin. He missed the point from the beginning. I could care less about his feelings about what I call him or his "crew" as this post was never about him or his feelings. It's about us losing another riding area. He tried to make it about him....his bad, not mine. I'll discuss him no more.

I don't blame any "type" of ATV, just a "type" of rider. Thats it. We all know the type of rider we're talking about here. Regardless, it's done and gone. All the complaining in the world will do us no good now. What we need to focus on at this point is saving what we have left. How to make it happen is the question. We're certainly up against huge odds.

Ofcourse WE know what "type" of rider is messing it up for us, but those who think we are the environmental devil dont. They believe we are all out there to kill some grass.

Holey .......

Did some one or a bunch just wake up  Take this effort off this forum and write to the FWC and see what type of positvie actions can be taken to regain this area I can tell you that the immediate answer will be nothing  But that is not how you get rulings appealed

Watch this space as they say

I personally blame the piss poor leadership of the F.W.C. for letting these scumbag people litter and act like animals that I have witnessed out there.They need to control it like the big cypress. I think the tracks do more damage than atvs
Greenmachine youre right when the camps started getting vandalized by the miami slime that was the beginning of the end for atvs

Well, this is just a domino effect.  Next will be big cypress...followed by others (croom)

You cannot blame the FWC. They had absolutely nothing to do with it. Blaming them is like blaming the fire department for an arsonist. Like I said above, it is not the FWC's responsibility to baby sit those scum bags.....and I totally agree with rdm225's description of these scum bags.

Also, the Big Cypress is a completely different story. The Holylands are controlled by the State and ORV access is controlled in the Holylands by the FWC, a state agency. The Big Cypress is a National Preserve. This means it falls under federal jurisdiction and is policed by the national park service ("NPS") and ultimately the Department of the Interior ("DOI"). The FWC patrols in the Big Cypress for the sole purpose of enforcing wildlife regulations...nothing more. ORV access is entirely up to the NPS.

I can tell you that while many folks have said there is no plan to do away with ATVs within the Big Cypress, I absolutely know differently. Granted, it's not official yet and the folks with the NPS will tell you (if you ask) that there are no plans to restrict ATV use. However, just like the overwhelming problems with ATVs in the Holylands, the Big Cypress is beginning to see the same.

Now, with the Holylands closure, more ATV pressure will be put on the Big Cypress. As a result, the Big Cypress will attract more of those same scum bags rdm225 described. The NPS will not put up with that type of activity. Why? Because the current ORV plan is a negotiated settlement reached as a result of a major lawsuit over ORV use in the Big Cypress.  Any activity contrary to this settlement or any activity that increases negative impact within the Big Cypress will be stopped because NPS is required to do so under the current ORV plan.

Now, granted, there is nothing pending to limit ATV use in the Big Cypress. However, those same people within the NPS that will tell you there is no plan to limit ATVs will be the first to tell you that, if and when the Big Cypress encounters trouble from ATVs like experienced in the Holylands, the NPS' response will be fast and all encompassing. Remember, unlike the FWC, the NPS doesn't have to jump through all of the regulatory hoops to change rules. The NPS can make restrictions at any time to "protect the national preserve".

None of the WMA's were set aside as areas to use ORV's. The Holylands included. Nothing requires the FWC/state, to do anything more than grant the general public reasonable access to these WMA's. Reasonable access can mean foot traffic only off of very few limited improved trails which, can only be utilized by registered vehicles. In fact, the vast majority of Florida's WMA's are set up this way. Something everyone should keep in mind the next time they enjoy the privilege (not the right) to ride an ATV in any WMA...or for that matter....any forest, park or preserve.

Its a real shame hl is getting shut down I just wish it would of been enforced tighter with heavy fines for lawbreakers. the internet didnt help either. the last couple of times out there is was insane with people, no wonder there werent more people killed out there ,jrpro youre right cypress is next

I have never riden at the Holey Land but I'm sorry to see it go.  Once areas start getting closed, it becomes easier to justify closing others.  I recently rode out at Big Cypress and really enjoyed the area.  I did, however, see a few soda cans on the trail and new trails cut by trucks or buggies.  Has anybody ever contacted areas like Big Cypress about doing a clean up?  I'm new on this site, but I can tell there are many here that care enough to do this.  If nothing else it would show these places that we not only want to ride but also help keep the place clean.  Just a thought.

Anoriginal you work for the FWC?    I guess its time for JETSKIZ!

i have bin saying this for years.wma,s are mainly ment to be used for hunting.over the last few years they where trying to make some more money and get nature freaks and bird watchers and who elseto start useing them.they never intended these plases to get over run with ATVs like ants .just a few months ago everybody was talking about only riding at night during hunting season.well i said it then also .THAT DONT WORK.if someone is going hunting on a WILD LIFE MAGAMNET AREa they are going to get there at 4 am at the latest.so if someone is out riding around there hunting area. they are not going to have a good hunt.atvs already have a enough people that don't like us,but when your pissing off all the huntetrs.all they are doing is putting heat on FWC about why is there hunting area being overrun so they cant evan hunt.i know most of you dont hunt,but i do.so i can see why the place got shut down.everybody tried to turn into a OHV PARK.ITS NOT.but im sure someone is going to come on here and they have a right to ride.they always do. also the buggys and tracks have bin out there 75 years and it was fine before the ATVs came along.i know this because i hunted holylands back in the 90,s .is was very nice.now go take a look.look at from google earth.this is not from the buggys and tracks .its all about the atvs.now i hunt corbet from my buggy.its only a matter of time before they shut corbet down and make it a drive in only wma.what i mean is no off roading.i heard from pbso that the wheels are already in progess.but its the same thing.we go out there get in our stands at 4 am and by 7 am i have all kinds of peoples joy riding on utvs and trucks and buggys.and then theres the kids out there tearing it up.so im sure there's enough people complaining about its only a matter of time.