ATV Florida Forum

Thank you for your interest in the Rotenberger Wildlife Management Area. The rule proposal was supported at the Commission meeting on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 and will come into effect on July 1, 2008.

Recreational riding of all-terrain vehicles will be prohibited year-round. Use of all-terrain vehicles will be restricted to hunting purposes only and only during archery, muzzleloading gun and general gun-walk seasons and for scouting purposes two weeks prior to archery season and one week prior to the start of muzzleloading gun and general gun-walk seasons.

Camp owners can access their property with a 4 x 4 truck, a track vehicle or an airboat, depending on the water levels. If water levels are too low to accommodate an airboat, a swamp buggy may be used. We are currently working to see if we can allow some other possible alternatives for camp owners.

Aerial photos show the extent that all-terrain vehicles are operating in the wetland and the footprint left by them. The wide trails they create provide unnatural fire breaks, provide a conduit for exotic vegetation (namely grasses such as torpedo grass) and allow exposed soil to readily oxidize and burn, which has problems associated with it too. Several wildfires in 2007 were directly attributed to all-terrain vehicle use.

The impetus for this rule proposal was not resource damage alone. Law enforcement has ample documentation of accidents and fatalities associated with reckless all-terrain vehicle use. They also spend an inordinate amount of manpower enforcing safe operation of all-terrain vehicles and conducting search and rescue missions for stranded recreational riders.

I hope this information is helpful to you. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

Jen Williams

and do they really think this will stop the owners from riding out there?

Id@

does that go for UTV like Rhino?

BS a 400 lbs bike does less damage than a full track I believe not just a nother way to stop the larger percentage of the groups between truck atv and buggies

On the FWC website, there's no mention of any restrictions being approved. The proposed restrictions are listed on the agenda at http://www.myfwc.com/commission/2008/Feb08/index.html.
But, approval of the agenda proposals is not listed on
http://myfwc.com/whatsnew/08/statewide/News_08_X_CommFeb08.htm
or
http://myfwc.com/whatsnew/08/statewide/News_08_X_PostCommFeb.htm

The key words are rule proposal for the closure  i dont think they can leagally do that

I don't believe that...until it's posted up on myfwc.org.

I'm a little skeptical.

The more I think about it...IIRC, they can not legally do that.  It is discrimination of ATV's to a public property.  If it is closed to "recreational vehicles" that is a different story.  But they can not just close it to one specific type of motor vehicle.

That would be like saying you can't drive through Fort Lauderdale in an SUV.  It's discrimination.

I could be totally wrong, but thats my understanding of it. 

BTW, a 400lb atv does a lot less damage than a full track, buggy, or airboat.  Have you seen how the sawgrass looks after an airboat tears through it? It's just flat.

Also, I thought that restriction was not passed at the meeting.  And I have never heard that guys name before, do you know his title? I know quite a few of the uppers in PB County...

Edit:

and re-reading that email...

As far as SAR (search and rescue), FWC doesn't do ANYTHING for SAR.  Fire/rescue (BSO) does it all.  I know that...  They use BSO's life flight helicopter, and FHP helps with perimeters.  FWC doesn't do anything.

And if they restrict atv use, they are going have to put so much more manpower out there.  They must not know how many ways you can get in to riding there.  They must also not know how much it will cost to patrol, they have to use arial patrol, atv patrol, and marked unit patrol.






If this is true, which I'm still skeptical, then there will be a lot of illigal riding. And I'm the first to say, I have plenty of SAR shirts, red/white lights, and flares.  If they want to play that game....

Hate to say I told you so but....... :(

Hard to jump to conclusions...when it's on myfwc.com, then we know it's real.

They will have to prohibit all motorized vehicles...they can not discriminate

Wrong. fwc.com has nothing to do with it being official. If it passed, it passed.

Also, you're incorrect about banning all vehicles. They can ban what ever type they want. Look at Big Cypress (no full tracks, no street legal vehicles, no motorcycles, no vehicles over 8 foot wide). Look at Webb (No Tracks, no ATV's, no motorcycles). They can and will do it. Sorry to bust your bubble.

It was a matter of time and the time now upon us . The new proposed rules remind me of Browns Farm . Those of you who have been around a while may  recall that they the then Game and Fresh Water Fish Comm would allow a month or 2 weeks of ORV use prior to bow season to set up stands , make shootin lanes with the full tracks back in the grass .
Then its shut down to ORV's till the following August.

And yes , they can a will shut down what ever they want ,just like in the cypress. I was at Oasis last saturday and there were  a couple kids with Banshees askin the ranger about the regulations and the speed limits .
Look out cause the Cypress will be next when we get  people racing on Donahue's rock roads .

 Resource protection will be the reason for closures and thats it.
Damn shame .

Another riding spot down? Anyone want to buy my quads?

"Thank you for your interest in the Rotenberger Wildlife Management Area."
The title of this thread is misleading by refering to holylands. The letter is refering to Rotenberger WMA which is on the north west corner of the pump station.

Please notice that this is about Rotenberger ...not Holey Land or Area 3 (north side). I've noticed everybody on the site refers to the general area as Holy Lands. So lets do some more research and see if this change apply to the other 2 WMA's .

Regardless , it wont be long either way but lets see what's really going here.

Yea, 3a conservation should part of Francis S. Taylor.  But in the FWC proposed changes, it applies to all 3, holey lands, rotenburger, and evergaldes francis s. taylor

Anorigional,

I said IIRC (if I recall correctly). 

Like I said before, there will be lots of illigal riding.  It will take at least 2x the manpower to enforce, plus they have to use air power to enforce it. 

I know I'll be riding there, I know of about 10 other ways to ride 3a/3b, other than the l5 levee.

And also like I said before, when FWC is kicking us out...I'll leave, until then, I'll be riding there

the prpposal was for holands,rotenberger/and everglades francis taylor. it is for all  3 WMA......

F-um. Let them regulate them selves out of a job.
Then we can request the Governor to eliminate all FWC position in the area since it cant be used. This will save tax payer dollars and help with the budget cuts.
They can hire part time for hunting season, min wage without benefits. Too many fat asses doing nothing out there anyway.

Thanks Brett for clearing that up .

Time to move to Georgia.  This sucks. :'(

obv people are still gonna ride there after july 1, incl myself, but im waiting on aresponse on what penalty will be incurred.....if just a ticket, ill take my chances..

the fwc offc that i spoke tosaid that the proposal can be reversed, but its gonna take allot to do it...

maybe we start a rally out there, get the local news stations and make it public....

If it's a tresspassing ticket, I can't even take the chance  :'( but if it's something other...such as a non-criminal, etc, I'm not worried.

Let them catch me, I know so many places to drop off it's not even funny  >:D

I agree with forming the rally... there is power in numbers. We buy our ATVs to ride them, we dedicate our selves to the sport they can't just rip it away like that... If we got a nice size group together.... it is public property isn't it?

Well, it's the only tolerated spot in the tri county area...we have to do something.

I'd say rally, get some news crews involved, see who knows who...

There have been several groups, in the past, that have done what has been mentioned on this thread. We have held rally's and had news crews there on a number of ocasions. But we have been limited only to 1 or 2 groups totaling about 50-70 heads with 2 or 3 leaders only. Seems like there are some of you that responded, that really want to make a difference and some that can break it down legally. Now is the time, decide if you want to keep riding locally or if you want to drive 3-4 hours every time you want to ride. So, what are you guys gonna do? We will fight for whatever, wherever.........The day they try to take the humps away, is the day will rally and do what we need to keep it!!!

I'm up for whatever.

I'm there every saturday, so count me in.

My first inclination is to flame hard on the jackasses that have brought it to this point but save for a few exceptions (and you jerk-wads know who you are), the guilty most likely don't visit this site.  I wish there was a way to turn back the clock to when few people knew the place existed.  My kids are outraged that they will no longer be allowed to ride out there.  It was one of our favorite family activities and now it's gone, thanks to a bunch of selfish, irresponsible punks.  As I had predicted numerous times on previous posts, the guilty are the ones who will cry the loudest and I already see some of the guilty puking out their trash talk.  You tough guys really know how to make a difference, don't you?  Where were you during the clean-up rides?  The email campaigns to make our voices heard?  Behaving yourselves when you were riding out there?  Picking up your trash or for that matter, any trash you saw?  Where were you when it mattered?  Yeah, I can hear you now; now you 'gotta do something.'  Too late, peckerhead.

Cant add much more to that .
There mere numbers alone would've done us in anyway . Back in the 1980's there werent many that rode out there , mostly because there were still plenty of areas in western Broward and Dade Counties to ride in .
 :(

I noticed that HL turned real bad after 8th street got blocked off. 

I remember back right when it opened back up, after the closure, how nice it was.  There was barely a noticable trail off the levee all the way down. 

It was beautiful.  Now it's all gone.  The place looks like crap, theres stupid high schoolers partying and doing drugs out there, not even out there riding.  Too many dipwads doing doughnuts aroudn the trucks.  I witnessed 5 people doing it, all on sport atvs (coincidence, I know) not giving a rats @$$.  It just ticks me off.  I can't stand that these punks, most of them on stolen bikes and illigal aliens, are ruining this place.

I think we should police it ourselfes, have a redneck day and just kick everyones ass that doesn't belong out there.

HL/Rotenburger, and 3a (everglades francis s. taylor) is a place for 4x4 atv's, swamp buggies, tracks, and airboats.  Not a place for dirtbikes and sport atvs (well, if your riding off the levee, thats still cool).  I just see way too many people out there strictly riding the levee...which I have noticed a trend, they are the trouble makers.  They are littering, they are causing harm.

Now don't get me wrong, there are plenty of beer cans off the levee from 4x4's.  I must supply both sides of the story...
I just think that the levee should be closed to recreational ATV use.  Thats where the problem is. 



If your riding at holey lands to ride the levee, your there for the wrong reason.  It just takes about 5 minutes of observing to figure that one out...

I watched a yfz go from his truck on the north parking side, to the south parking side, do a dougnut, almost roll his bike, got off, started his bike back up, fishtailed around about 10ft from the trucks spraying the trucks.  Then he went flying down the levee, turned around, almost flipped again, raced by the trucks about 40mph (not kidding), then went back to his truck and just hung out there partying with his large group of stolen bikes.  He did this about 2 more times before he almost got shot by a few of our neighboring trucks...they got a little angry to say the least, after 1 time, we had all had enough, but 2 was assinine...3 was off the shelf.  Needless to say, he packed up shortly after.

BTW, fwc was no where to be found.  But FWC is there when there is 10 bikes out just putting around...lol.  And they are also there when I make illigal left turns ;) Damn firefighters is what they always say to me...

The answers to your questions are as follows:

 

Question #1 yes to all and all areas are restricted

# 2 they do not know what it is yet.  I suspect that it will be an infraction but please continue to view the web site.

# 3 all of the areas are closed including the levees. 

 

I look forward to hearing from you again and if I can be of further assistance let me know.

 

Lt. Dave Bingham


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: brett [mailto:brett711@earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 10:25 AM
To: Bingham, David
Subject: brett ,i spoke to you on the phone

 

hi there,

 

question 1 did the proposed rule go into effect for the 3a/holyland/rotenberger.. include francis taylor as well..

 

question  2    what will be the penalty if caught rideing those areas..

 

quest 3     are we allowed to ride the levees..

 

thanx for your help

 

least i still can ride my 2 wd down the leeve.  They did not say anything bout leeve rideing just the dam 4wd tearing up the mounther earth. i see stupied people knocking down trees. Makes me sad. :'(

Thanks matt, its a holes like you that are getting it shut down thanks again all you a holes

I really have mixed feelings about all of this. On one hand, I hate to see any place we ride close down. On the other hand, I completely understand the reasons behind the closing and can't say I am totally against the decision.

In the end, it was the few that ruined it for the many. Always is. Sucks any way you slice it.  :-[

I agree with you anaoriginal.

I used to love the place.  Now it's just torn up and a lot of a-holes run around there...I am picking other places to ride now.

But it's the MANY that ruined it for the FEW.  We are the few...

I agree with you totally.

You will also have to take a boater safety course for the flag citation another 25 bucks thanks fwc

if we don't try anything about the holeylands area, what ever the next spot we pick to ride will be next, the only problem is its overcrowded, everyone from everywhere rides holeylands its just too many people

so post up what we have to do and lets do it

my .02 I'm down to try and help out


on a side note anyone who's been riding after hunting season is over knows that sh*t grows back with in the few months, so it regenerates after all the ORVs ride all over the place, im not saying it makes it right but FYI for those who thinks it just doesnt grow back

I'm committed to any Rally that can be organized @ Holeyland. Why must they close all 3 WMAs? No one rides ATVs in Rottenberger and Everglades/Francis Taylor is the largest, so just give us Holeyland because it's bordered on the north by a sugar cane field anyway.

My father says he is up to support any rally we are good for around 40-70 bikes and around 80-90 people to be there lol.

i think we should go public, goto sun sentinel, miami herald etc.... local news stations... anyone know someone....in the news media to come out there and make a public announcement

I'm down for whatever. I don't have time to organize it, but I'll sure support it.

I still think they should JUST close the l5 and miami canal levee to rec use.  That would eliminate 99 percent of the problem.  And forbid camping and enforce the drinking laws...

We have been through this Rally stuff before. Like it said in the earlier post its usually a low turn out. The problem I have when they keep closing these places, it pushes the southern riders to move North to places that are illegal riding areas and are already feeling heavy heat because of the larger numbers of illegal riders. Yes, I ride illegally in a few spots up north. With local knowledge and NO fan fare (no trucks, trailers, large groups) you can get in and out when the heat is off.

I am a firm believer that these properties that are being close belong to ALL OF US. It gripes me to be considered a NON-FActor in this country when it comes to these land closures. I still believe the American Indian was screwed over by our ancestors. Now we know how that feels. I will ride illegally and legally as long a i keep riding.       

rdm u dont no me and u really dont wanna go there ight


how bout we ride there untill they tell us we cant ride there no more and then u all come back to the comp and start crying that u cant ride there u still got a lil time left run it till u dont wanna run it anymore   


i agree shutting it down is good idea to keep people like rdm out of there

 Not good news to hear,that really sucks but I guess it was going to happen sooner of later.I was really hoping it wouldnt.

Like 4x4matt said...I don't think you know who he is.

I think that explains enough.

First off Matt you need to learn how to spell correctly ,then you can get my attention

I just spoke to FWC and Although someone decided to try correct me(on this forum) the vote did take place during the last meeting on the 6-8. And the issue was on the docket for that meeting.

According to FWC there is no appeals system.  The time for an appeal was when the issue was placed on the docket for discussion. 

To say too little too late comes to mind  Everyone one with a conscious and an IQ greater than the amount of beer cans they droped out there should realize that this was a gift.  Not growing up here in the south the First time I went out there I kept asking myself is this really OK to ride here?  To ride along side of or in the Everglades.

Maybe if a new location is allowed People will remember the fun they had at the Holylands and what a hastle it is to drag you're ATV to areas that are controlled riding

Well, all I know is theres going to be a lot of illigal riding.  Theres no where to ride in the tri county area after HL closes.

This is going to be a pretty big problem.  FWC is going to have to put quite a few officers out there...they probably will need to run aerial support as well.  Not to mention a few officers on atv's.

The real question now is how does the state allow ATV sales and tax collections to ensure riding areas and continually close them down. Basically they are selling products you cannot use.... :'(

Regulations are made and regulations can be changed

First a lobbyist type group needs to be formed.  This should include Riders as well as manufactureres and the local dealers.

Do you not think this will have re-procutions for people like Rick Case and Riva and Broward Motor Sports

Yamaha has just formed  an alliance team just to prevent this type of area from closing.
It will not be easy and it will take more much more than words on a forum.

My group hopefully on Monday will meet with an attorney to form a NON Prof to see how far we can take this.  Had I known prior to the end of last month that this was on the docket for the meeting this month I would have moved to form this months ago,  However a national Forrest ranger in Ocala told me about this closure forth coming

Maybe they need a ranger station out there like Croom & you have to buy a yearly pass to ride an atv out there. The yearly fee would cut a lot of the quad theives out because of the record keeping part.
If everyone reading this thread will go back & reread it, you can see clearly why it was closed down.
Several of you are spouting off about "you will continue to ride out there & ef them if they try to stop you" "you know ways to run from the law & hide from the law" "there is gonna be a lot of illegal riding out there & it will take double the manpower to enforce"

Last time I was at Holeylands(several years ago) there was one main road in & out off of Hwy 27. How hard is it gonna be to set a pair of officers at the entrance & they will turn back every truck with an atv on it? ???
This is life & good luck getting a rally together. There are just as many dumbazzes out there who could care less & live against the law as there are good people in your areas.
Sell your quads & buy a small track or airboat.
Better yet, get one of those big arctic cats & install the track system then you are riding a "track vehicle".

I hate to tell you all this but, as leeward said, this is a done deal. There is no appeal and no changing this one. All of the lobbying, rallying, speaking up and beating the drum should have happened a year or so ago when the Holyland closure discussion began. Public comment was taken, meetings were held and discussions had. All of it was published (most of it on this website).

You missed your chance. You can bet there's more closures to come. It's just a matter of time. As those same imbeciles that ruined the Holylands creep into other areas, those areas will close too.

The manufacturers don't care. Why should they? How many people do you know (maybe you're one of them) who purchased a bike knowing full well they/you have no legal place to ride? Those people are the problem. Nobody owes you a place to ride. You have no "right" to ride. A legal area to ride is a gift and privilege and nothing more.

Too bad. It was a nice place too.

That little road isn't the only way to get into 3a.  I don't ride on the north side often (holey lands rotenburger).  I'm not saying how I can get in...because this is a public forum. 

Trust me, there are several ways to get back there...I can count about 14 to get to 3a and about 4 to get to 3b.  Obviously by that statement you made...you don't ride where i ride.  No offense by any means, but just to let you know, that little road isn't the only way to get in...  :-*

And FWC already knows this...so I'm not spilling any beans.  Thats why I said it's going to take quite a few officers.

BTW for everyone else, L-Cross, C&R, and others are open...I know of a few other spots too.

I believe Anoriginal said this, "The only legal places to ride are where the land owner has given you permission" Sorry Anorignal if I butchered your meaning. I prepared myself for this and have secured two places to ride legally in South Florida. Others have done the same. "The few" of us.  Anoriginal Let me know when you are ready to ride. Maybe July 2nd.

 

Thats why I sold mine 2 years ago. The guy that bought it lives near the yucapan in Cape Coral. Told me"they'll have to catch me" 8)  ;) ;) Wonder how many times they "caught" him ?????

Like I said before...it sucks because it's close to me, but bottom line is that theres plenty of other places.  I'm just partial to holey lands because once you get you 6 miles, there is no one else around. 

If you go to l-cross, your surrounded by people.

please keep us posted

This really sucks for the people who ride at holylands alot and actually respect it
too many idiots are going out there racing and littering and killing the place
thats why their shutting it down

well , its time to tell a story.  this closesure all started 4 yrs ago. when the FWC lost there $10.00 per OHV  permit fee, now they hate any type of OHV use. you see the green sticker fee $$$ doesnt come back to them. but thats not the real problem. The head director of the FWC needs to take a look at how other states run ATV areas, and stop being lazy.  4years ago  no one could care about riding in holylands, we had the goldengate swamp to ride at . then came the OHV ATV TITLE SCAM!  along with the restore the everglades water flow .  Gov BUSH turned over the land to FWC ,AND GUESS WHAT  no more ATV use! so then comes the holyland area , knowing this is not a atv park but its is the swamp and any impact on the area is very little, with all the FULL TRACK OHV USE . my little atv could not be doing any damage! as time went on and the sport quads that cant run the swap and can only do donuts in the parking area, the atvers that got killed in the parking area because they thought they were evil kneveil.  but  found out the hard way ..continue next

and then the trash dumpers, the banshee speeders on the leeve . but the FWC is to blame, the FWC could of had a $$$$ maker there. put a $8hr intern , colect a day user fee like $10.00 and on any weekend they would bring in over 2k.  like other area due now { ocala croom}..  but no the FWC is lazy.  were just going to close this area down . now heres the problem FWC, the funnel affect, area like { bull creek, 3 lakes, big cypress, macks fish camp} will all get over ran with atvers. but you know this FWC so you will be shutting those area down too.. you would think the FWC would get a clue right?  just think with the tax cuts we wont need all of the  FWC officers. there might not be $$$ for them.  cont next

but the real sad story is, we have no support !! the ATV dealers were makeing big greedy $$$$$$  on sales&service. our rally support was low when we were fightin for goldengates. so i hope the ATV dealers saved some $$$ because atv sales will be going down!!!!  and in the tough times were gonig thur now i see some dealers shutting down.. BUT  the biggest SCAM  is the OHV TITLE SCAM!!!!  The state of Flordia Ranks 2nd in atv sales buts has no state or deal support for the sport!!!  the Mark T schmitt bill  was to collet tax $$$ from sales and green sticker fees. in turn the state was too open 4 atv parks.  Well like i told fellow ATVERS before and after this bill was passed it was a scam to make $$$ for the state .  i told people of ths B.S scam . this is was happen in the state of P.A  same thing TITLE you ATVS we will open states parks. well ATVers the STATE of  P.A  closes all areas and takes the $$$$ so the atvers there Stop paying to get there atvs title and now ride on private  pay areas .  I  for one see the same thing here in F.L  we have lost more areas and payed more$$$  , I for one think the State of  F.L  owes us are $$$ back, of lets us make ours bikes street legal so we can ride. in the mean time if you are going to buy a ATV  buy it used or go out of State to buy new . that way you save the tax $$$ YOU wont need to get a title there will be no state riding areas . we are still waiting for the 640 ac that was going to be a atv park near Naples.  i guess that was a scam too.  all i can say now is WAKE UP FWC , and take note ATVers are not going away!!  and too the dealers cough up some profit to help with ATV rallys..  i will be riding holylands up until the last days. hope the rain stops so i can make it to the radio tower. because it will be the last time......