ATV Florida Forum

I went to Ft Myers last Friday and while driving back, I happened to see where they are tearing up the roads in the Golden Gate, I assume as part of the Everglades restoration they have planned for that area.  My question, after 40-50 years of being in this condition, what are the plans for the flora and fauna that now call this area home, plant and animal life that is not accustomed to living in 2 feet of water?  What are they going to do with the thousands of slash pines and cabbage palms that now thrive in that area and will die as soon as they flood the area?  Isn't the cabbage palm protected?  I really have a hard time trying to understand what they believe they will accomplish with this plan.  It just seems like a horrible way to spend hundreds of millions of dollars.  Surely there are other, more viable, projects that money could be spent on.  There isn't even a realistic way of re-establishing sheet flow in that area unless they plan on turning the Alley into a 119 mile long bridge.  I love the Everglades and believe it should be protected but somebody has to draw a line when it comes to funding every little project the Sierra Club, and others like them, dreams up.  Aren't there several tens of thousands of teachers in this state that desperately deserve more money?  I know it's way late to change what they will do in the Picayune but damn, what a waste of money.

Wow, it is finally happening. Sad to say at the least, but it will heal right up and everything will adapt or move on....like the riders did. :(

It sounds as if it will be even better in the winter months when this is over...wonder what the fine for riding it is..

Last I saw they were cutting the trees down and hauling them off.  ???  Gone but not forgoten

I asked the same questions at several meetings since the BS started. No one could give me an anwser.

I would guess it's the same folks who train the panthers to use the million dollar crosswalks will train the wildlife how to swim.

Post some pictures. Heck, I almost want to drive over and see myself. Sure would like to sneak in from 41 on Miller rd and check it out..how wet is it?

Hayduke lives. Hayduke is a character in a series of books wriiten about his fight against the establishment that was trying to steal land and resources from the american public and sell off to Big Money devolpers and water management types. He was a American Outlaw that would not accept what the government was dishing out to the people. The setting was in Utah, Nevada, Arizona areas. If anyone is interested in his exploits, let me now. He is my friggin hero. 

LMFAO. Now this is the only laugh I ever got from the situation, but that place got pretty deep except for the roads 3/4 of the time anyway.

I am as bitter as the next guy from being denied use of the land, but the terrain will be more natural and I don't see how it will affect the wildlife any different.

Where is Anoriginal to throw in his two cents in this thread.

OK, im going to chime on this one.
1) The state is selling the "tall palms" to developers. this is legal under the "restoration".
2) The animals are supposed to move to the "North Side" of SGGE. This is what SFWMD told me when i asked them this same question. That's why the 2100 acres the Florida Dept of Foresrty had proposed for ORV/ATV use was shut down by SFWMD and ACOE.
3) About 42,000 acres will be under water now.

This is why i have such a hard time with all these a$$holes.

CERP or "Everglades Destruction" is modeled after WRDA, in WRDA "Historic and Cultural" uses are to be protected, they wiped their a$$ with this.

SFWMD and USFWS have issued a permit to build 25,000 homes and hotels and Golf courses that backup right onto the Florida Panther Preserve. In the 2005 Environmental Impact Report (EIR) from USFWS it clearly states that the majority of panther activity is in and around the "Florida Panther Preserve" . (Corner of us 29 and I-75).

So my ATV "Bothers" the Panther but not the 25,000 homes/hotels cars, etc.


Folks,you really really need to understand there  are all together about 60 of these projects, and you will not be allowed on any SFWMD LAND. SFWMD is the ANTICHRIST. They have a VP of US sugar and developers on their board. There is no "Restoration", this is another plumbing Job for the estimated 5 Million people that will be moving to South Florida.

In 2002 then Governor Bush and the Florida Legislature signed an "Ammendment" into CERP allowing the Sugar companies and the EAA region to continue to pollute into Lake O. For an additional 10 years. So what's the point??? Jose "pepe" Fanjul, owner of Crystal sugar was Jeb's biggest money contributor to his election and reelection campaign. He was actually at BUsh's side during his visit here to promote the "restortation"

We can sit down and take it in the A$$, or we can start showing up at these meetings and start telling the general public the truth about this. Your Choice.....Rick

Thats the plan I believe..

I'm pretty sure no one has a problem doing that.




Why did they just dump all that money in recreational access points? I thought it was a chunk of 41.

They also want to make the HOV lanes on I-95 into toll roads...

I'm sure you heard about this already,  www.tbo.com/news/opinion/editorials/MGBYLWMW55F.html

I have never seen this, thanks for posting it.

Jack, The access points you are talking about are for "boardwalks" and so on. It has nothing to do with ORV access points. Sometime in September, there is going to be a meeting with the MPO(Metropolitan planning Organization) here in Collier County where they are taking up again the possible designation of US 41 as a "scenic Highway" if 41 does get designated as such, this will be another blow to us, because then they can prohibit parking along 41 for the hunters, fisherman, bikers etc. Not only is this bad, but this will also include the "viewshed", Meaning they will have control as far as the eye can see and if they dont want to see swamp buggies or atv, guess what, even though it's federal land, you have to be out of the "viewshed area". Rick

I don't know much about things down in S. FL. but I read an article about a sugar grower named pepe(owns the biggest sugar co. in FL) he  was the one who donated the most money last year, maybe this year as well,to Gov. Bush. They say pepe can have another year at polluting into Lk. Okeechobee  :(

Here's the link........


http://www.politicalfriendster.com/showConnection.php?id1=4540&id2=181

That's him "Pepe",
Some shady stuff right there.

Here's more stuff to really piss you off!!!


http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/16338

Scroll down to "Kingdom of Sugar".

On of the VP's of US Sugar, Malcolm"Bubba" Wade is a director for SFWMD. Maybe you guys can start pitting the dots together. There is no "Everglades restoration", Just big money political payback. SFWMD are Crooks and Thugs.

The general public really has no idea about any of this. I had it out with a bunch of kooks and leaf lickers who buy the entire snow job about this in the local sun-sentinel newspapers forum after a Lake O, we will be doomed soon story.

Please email or post anything else like this that people need to know.

here's more PROOF that this whole thing is a LIE...


http://www.everglades.org/spring2006.pdf

Scroll down to "21st annual everglades"


The 21st Annual
Everglades Coalition Conference



I would like to share with you some of my impressions
of the Everglades Coalition 21st Annual Conference held January
26 – 29 on Hutchinson Island.
It seemed to me that while state and federal officials
were enthusiastically reporting progress in several areas of Comprehensive
Everglades Restoration, no one really knows how to
solve some of the most difficult problems which still lie ahead.
For example, Modified Water Delivery is a series of complicated
projects designed to restore water flow into northeastern
Everglades National Park. Yet any such restoration endangers
urban areas east of the park, primarily through seepage. Several
scientists at the conference reported on a system of canals, levies
and pumps that will be constructed to minimize seepage, but
as Friends board member Sue Wilson pointed out, these solutions may cause even more problems, such as salt water intrusion
from the bay. I left the conference contemplating the gloomy
possibility that Mod Waters may simply be unworkable.
A particularly revealing moment occurred for me during
a Concurrent Panel Discussion on restoration of water flow.
Included were panelists from South Florida Water Management
District, Army Corps of Engineers, and a hydrologist involved
in Everglades restoration. During the question and answer phase,
I asked the following question of the panel: “Some have charged
that CERP (Comprehensive Everglades Restoration Project) is
primarily a water supply plan for farmers and real estate interests.
They say that while it provides enough water for the population
of South Florida to double, it provides no additional water
to Everglades National Park until at least 2020. Do any of
you believe this charge is justified?” The response I got was
silence. Not one panelist attempted to refute this position. When
the discussion was adjourned, I rushed forward before the panelists
could leave the table and asked several of the panel members,
“Why didn’t you refute my position?” Their reply was essentially:
“Because you were right.” That was a response I would
have expected from environmentalists but not from government
representatives responsible for promoting Everglades restoration.
Several public officials were featured as keynote speakers.
It seemed to me that conference participants were rather
indiscriminate in their praise of these speakers, regardless of
whether that praise was deserved or not. For example, one of the
keynote speakers was Bruce Babbitt, Clinton’s Secretary of Interior.
In March 1993, according to Harper’s Magazine, Alfy
Fanjul met privately with Babbitt, presenting him with an Everglades
restoration plan drawn up by Florida Crystals’ scientists.
When Babbitt unveiled the administration’s restoration plan in
July of that same year, it bore (quoting from Harper’s) “an uncanny
resemblance” to Fanjul’s plan. Yet the speaker who introduced
Babbitt had nothing but glowing praise for his many contributions
to the Everglades and the audience gave him two standing
ovations. Perhaps we should pick our heroes more carefully.

Your right Jack most people don't know, lswjth2 has always helped us out w/this kinda info. This stuff makes me sick to my stomach.

I don't understand, they claim were "destroying" our O.N.F. so badly, but as long as you give us boy's some $$ you can keep on dumping/polluting into one of our Country's biggest, & our State's most important lakes, I think I understand now, you just have to pay them off, and you can do whatever you want.

Well. I filed a formal complaint with SFWMD inspector General, they did call back and wiped their a$$es. So hewre's my plan of attack and i need help with this.

I am going to be sending the Attorney General in Washington, The office and OMB and the Florida state attorneys office all this information demanding that an Investigation be opened up into CERP and specifically SFWMD.

Then aremed with as much info as we have, start showing up to these CERP meetings and disclose to the General public all that we have. At that point, since the meetings are filmed, it becomes "public record", But i cannot do these alone....Rick


Here's more stuff.

A developer in Miami get's the OK to build condo's in the restoration area, and SFWMD say's it will help restore the waterflow....

this was taken from the Naples daily news in Naples, Florida



Developer gets OK to build in midst of Everglades restoration project

S. Fla Water Management District raises eyebrows with its blessing of construction in polluted area

By Jeremy Cox (Contact)

Saturday, March 11, 2006

A Miami developer wants to drop nearly 500 townhouses among live oaks and slash pine that are in the middle of a stalled Everglades restoration project in Collier County.

The South Florida Water Management District is playing a big role in planning the resuscitation of Belle Meade, a sprawling collection of subdivisions east of Collier Boulevard. Its affliction: too many ditches and developments and not enough treatment of the polluted water they generate, experts say.

So, when the state agency issued its blessing Wednesday for the Miami developer's proposal, it raised a few eyebrows.

Brad Cornell, policy advocate for the Collier County Audubon Society, criticized the water management district, saying it is giving away land that might be critical to the planned restoration project.

"They don't know if they don't need it because no one has done any planning," Cornell said. "That's why we can't go to the governing board and say don't permit this away, even though in general terms that's what they're doing."

The Belle Meade and Henderson Creek project is one of the many Everglades-related projects that lack federal authorization and funding. The work has been part of the Comprehensive Everglades Restoration Plan, or CERP, since the plan's 2000 inception.

Photo by Chad Yoder / Daily News

The water management district's permit reviewers concluded that the new housing development, called Journey's End, "will not have an impact on the restoration project," according to a memo sent to the governor-appointed governing board.

"That development is consistent with CERP," Anthony DeLuise, a spokesman for the Florida Department of Environmental Protection, said in an interview. "It won't interfere with the restoration efforts."

The two-story townhouses and "apartment homes" are to be built on about 66 acres of former cropland on the south side of Manatee Road, a block east of Collier Boulevard. But since farming ceased on the property more than a decade ago, a forest of oaks, pines and palms has started taking over.

The developer, Alejandro Capo of Rimar Enterprises, couldn't be reached for comment.

The planned development is across the street from Rookery Bay National Estuarine Research Reserve, which encompasses 110,000 acres of sensitive mangroves. Henderson Key, a key tributary, winds through the reserve as well as Belle Meade's rural neighborhoods.

Keith Laakkonen, resource management coordinator at Rookery Bay, said the bay is suffering from "the older developments that didn't really account for how the water flowed in South Florida."

Since the area is so flat, U.S. 41 East and Collier Boulevard act like dams that block water from flowing naturally in broad sheets into the bay, nourishing its marine life.

Plans for Journey's End call for a sophisticated water-treatment system that includes shallow depressions designed to catch water and route it through swales to Henderson Creek. The project also would alleviate flooding woes at the nearby Rookery Bay Apartments.

"What it will actually do, it accounts for some stormwater treatment on those areas and actually gets that fresh water to spread on the natural area much better than it has in the past," Laakkonen said.

He quickly added: "There's definitely pros and cons. The preserve does not support development, but we will certainly support responsible, ecological ways of doing development."
Comments

These people make our state suck!

But wait there's more......A researcher for University of Miami somehow got his lab equipment removed because his findings did not match those of SFWMD. Take a guess as to who sits on the Board of Directors for UM???? One of the Fanjul Brothers. Not only is this sickening, but big sugar is actually SUBSIDIZED by the federal government. 


http://www.globalcoral.org/Larry%20Brand%20Flouts%20the%20Grant%20System,%20Pays%20the%20Price.htm

This is a quote from this story....I really suggest you read this.....rick

"Certainly Big Sugar was upset with him. At UM, powerful sugar growers were within earshot. Alfonso Fanjul, Jr., for example, the owner of the giant Florida Crystals, is a member of the board of trustees at the university, and is known to throw his political weight around. In 1996 Fanjul called President Clinton to complain about a tax on sugar that Al Gore was proposing. A White House intern named Monica Lewinsky bore witness to the call; the Everglades bore the brunt. The tax proposal was shelved. Then Fanjul threw $23 million at state legislators to make sure a sugar tax to help pay for Everglades restoration wouldn't happen in Florida either. Of course, it didn't.  "

Some crazy stuff right there, it should be illegal.

Rick,
I cant explain how happy I am that you are compling all this information and forwarding it to higher powers.
How do you feel about Gov Christ?  Do you think he is already in the pocket of the kings of development and sugar.

...and the insurance companies IMO. This information needs to reach the general public. Screw all these self serving politicians.

JustBilly, In my very limited opinion of Charlie, he's the same $hit as Bush when it comes to
us. He just appointed a lady (Estinoz) to the SFWMD board.

She's on record against atv/buggy use in the addition lands in Big Cypress. We need to do something drastic to draw attention to our plight.

We have a perfect rally point very near Tallahassee now that can accommodate every single last person you can find to go and protest.

yep, we need to do this.We also have to have a huge protest in front of SFWMD headqurters in West palm and call them Liars, baby killers, SFWeapons of Mass Destruction ans so on. Call the media and try to get a snowball effect going.......Who's in???

I think a huge showing in Tallahassee would be the ticket, and guarantee some media coverage where you can look straight into the cameras and call SFWMD out as the con artists and liars they are. I wonder how much notice 2000 people would need to make arrangements for the most important issue to date. I have a feeling many sportsmen would show in addition to off roaders.

Maybe if their is no charge to hit the plex many more folks would show up this time..... :(

I say make a date some time in October and post it up.

Regarding the Glades ,the term "RESTORATION" is damn joke.
50 % of the Glades are gone for ever as is in covered with asphalt.
The remainder is  fragmented  areas for water storage areas for urban use.

Now there's talk of using Area 3/ Holey Land and Ray Rotenberg as water containment areas , why you ask ? Because an area known as the Everglades Agriculture Area (EAA) which is just south of the Lake O, is in the planning stages for development .
All one has to do is look at Area 2 before it was turned into a pond to see what will happen to the three areas I just mentioned ,deer herd , coons ,and  bobcats all gone. Sustained high water levels are devastating to all forms of life in the affected area.
What's the point in Everglades Restoration if wildlfe will be adversely affeted.

Thursday, Aug. 7, the Okeechobee County Board of
County Commissioners approved plans for a 9-square mile self-contained
residential and commercial development that will dwarf the City of
Okeechobee.

Presentations by developers of The Grove have been made several times
to different government and public groups since the project was made
public in January of 2006. The development, which would be located in
the northeastern part of the county, would be developed in three
phases beginning in 2008. The scheduled completion date is sometime in
2024.

Upon completion it would have 11,798 single family units and 2,202
multi-family units, with 1,350,000 square feet of retail space,
420,000 square feet of office space, 350,000 square feet of industrial
space, 600 hotel rooms and a hospital.

The Dade Lake belt area is another example of restorations/CERP's failure to identify and protect vital wetlands. This area is home to the largest rock mining operation in south florida and it recieved a blessing to mine permit from the ACOE for another 10 years , this pure Everglades . Keep in mind the draglines operate 24/7 and are consuming glades at an alarming rate so ,wheres the uproar to stop this ?

 We dont need "restoration" , because its impossible at this point , we need land protection from development and other types of activities that permanently destroy the glades .And guess what ,all our ORVs combined  haven't hurt a damn thing.

Regarding the Picayune or the Blocks as some know the area , should've been left alone .
The notion that wildlife will move north is halarious , I guess DEP will have to flyover the Picayune/SGGE and drop flyers to inform all wildlife that life as they know it for the area will change .
 Notice to all critters -Going forward disregard feeding areas you've  known years , just move north.
 The idea that flooding it (re-establishing sheet flow) will be a success is total BS.


For some good reading click on the links below.
02/02 The Everglades Restoration Project?
http://www.aaof.us/02.02.htm


12/00 The Everglades Oxymoron
http://www.aaof.us/12.00.htm


11/98 Story The Flow of Water in the Everglades
http://www.aaof.us/novstory.htm

Browns Farm WMA a CERP victim
http://fig.cox.miami.edu/~scofield/sofl_plants/brownsfarm_index.html


Rick's comments are dead on again.

This document is giving me a headache just looking at it. Way too late to read, and apparently stop. At first glance it looks like a pile of BS and the population numbers by 2025 they state are out to lunch IMO.


http://www.co.palm-beach.fl.us/PZB/planning/CalleryJudgeGrove/ORCResponseRpt.pdf

The County has been planning for growth in a comprehensive manner for over 30 years.
The Urban Service Area was established in the 1980 Comprehensive Plan to contain
growth in a confined area, and since that time there have been a series of studies and
analyses that have examined the area between the Urban Service Area and the 20 Mile
Bend. Some of these documents were adopted as part of the County’s Comprehensive
Plan, others were utilized as reference. This chain represents a consistent thread in
long term planning that the County has been anticipating growth within this
geographically specific area to occur as the Urban Service Area approached build-out.
A major focus within each of these documents has often been with regards to the timing,
extent, and land pattern that would occur in this area.


¨ In the adopted CWC Sector Plan Amendment, staff noted:” In concert with the guiding
principles, the amendments being proposed in this report seek to provide a more
sustainable development pattern for the CWC area than the current trend. The proposed
TMDs, Village Centers, and Employment Center are compact non-residential forms of
development that improve land use balancing in the area while helping preserve open
space and the rural character of the area. They are areas that could have collocation of
future public facilities.”
¨ The Callery-Judge Grove TTD similarly provides for compact non-residential forms of
development that improve upon land use balancing in the area while helping to preserve
open space and rural areas on the site.
¨ The Callery-Judge Grove TTD has been designed to be a livable community in concert
with County directions. The scale of the project provides an opportunity for a full suite of
balanced land uses and organized open space, distinct community design elements in
an attractive and functional town setting, efficient provision of services and opportunities
for education, employment, recreation and cultural enrichment.

"This document is giving me a headache just looking at it. Way too late to read, and apparently stop. At first glance it looks like a pile of BS and the population numbers by 2025 they state are out to lunch IMO."

Yep ,I agree. .

Hey, Foreman, you are slightly mis-informed.  The Lake Belt mines were shut down nearly a month ago and the first of the appeals failed to be heard.  You might think this is a good thing, but the effect on Florida's construction industry, and since construction makes up a large part of our economy, the overall effect on the state will be devastating.  I do not have the figures with me (they are at my office and this is Saturday morning) but, working from memory, FDOT was against the closing of the mines and had completed a study showing that even a 3% loss of aggregate production would have serious effects on construction costs and the ability of the State of Florida to complete it's planned road building efforts.  This report doesn't even take into account the effect on the price of everything else made of concrete or using aggregates (asphalt for instance); it only takes into account the road building/improvement projects.  FDOT said that if a loss of only 3% occurred, they would have to cancel billions of dollars of projects and in excess of 10,000 jobs would be lost.  The closing of the Lake Belt represents between 25% and 30% of all aggregate production in Florida. This will be devastating.  As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for.  You just might get it.

This sounds great to me. Our roads are fine, and sorry to say our construction industry can stop now....for good as far as I am concerned. They sure found money to make I-95 a toll road.
Reminds me of how the turnpike was suppose to go free once it was paid for.
Now it pulls 2 million+ a day.

Diggin ,
You're absolutely right ,the closing of the mines will have devastating economic effects . The ripple effect will be felt in south florida for sure.
I've been seeing the long trains hauling rock out of Rinker daily ,so I forgot about the appeal you mentioned .

At some point in time there will be an end to the minning operation  though and the question is when ? When we run out of ground is the answer and nothin else. The argument is  the same for rural places we all hate to see developed because of jobs and the economic effect of a construction moratorium.

In my oppinion , south florida's contruction will run right to the levee's just like we have in area 2 and soon in south dade. Then when the pressure builds those lands will go as well.

Believe me , its no joke when a family is impacted because of a loss of a job .
Thats why out of necessity ,I feel the resources will be taken until there is no more.

A devastating effect on our economy will be felt when we loose our tourism dollars, anything else pales in comparison. It is the biggest industry in the entire world. Not gas, not oil, not anything but stupid tourists I have always hated.

South Florida's economy has, and always will be based on this since the time Flagler brought the first ones here to this terribly hot paradise.
Unchecked construction is leading to the destruction of the very things that brings people here in the first place.

Our sport fishing has been on a steady decline, our reefs are turning to chit, our everglades are being hacked up, why, to accommodate more people in a place that was never designed to hold them all. One look at the sewer outfalls in the ocean makes me sick.

This land I love is being turned in to New Yark City, a complete dump by anyone's standards.

Why in the world no one is against this unchecked destruction of South Florida is anyone's guess. I suppose a few quick bucks blinds everyone to the big picture. Let me tell you, I had a very prosperous time in the construction industry during the 80's helping this along, and couldn't see it either till now, when it is almost too late.

I hope everyone enjoys what is being created here, I could care less, I will be out of here soon like nearly every other native I have ever known.

The rock you see being hauled out right now is stock piled materials.  There are also a couple of mines that are still operating and not part of the Lake Belt suit.  I wouldn't doubt they will be next.  If you are interested, I'll post more complete info next week and links for anybody who wants to confirm.  JackL, you might be on the mark as far as tourism goes but if the construction industry in Florida (there's more to construction than homes and roads) collapses, you won't be so smug when the realities start to manifest themselves.

The realities have been beating me in the head for years now, I just love this place too much to see it transformed into a dump in a short sighted attempt to satisfy a few people and line their pockets with what should be everyone's money.

I was sitting here reading an article that starts out with, "What's the largest industry on earth? Telecom, NO. Computers and software, NO. Not even close. How about automotive products or gas and oil? Close but NO. The largest industry on earth annually accounting for more than 3.5 TRILLION in spending -- and a 1/2 trillion in direct revenue is, drum roll please. Tourism. It accounts for 11.4% of all consumer spending and employs 10% of the global workforce..." It continues to rise each and every year BTW.

It has been so good to South Florida through the years, we have been able to weather every economic storm that has ever hit the country because of it. To destroy this is insane, we should embrace and expand our role I have come to believe, so my kids can enjoy what I have for so many years.

I welcome a total collapse of the construction industry here, sure their will be some sad people, their always it, but in the long run we will be better for it. Just like a hurricane rolling over us, it will barely be felt in the long term where as when we destroy what brings people here, we will be left with nothing but misery.

I feel like I should be paying more attention to my sig but here goes.  Tourism is Florida's biggest industry and nobody argues that point.  However, the tourists must have a way to get here, have a place to stay once they get here and have access to what attracted them in the first place.  You have to have infrastructure in place to supply the hotels and resorts where the tourists stay; you have to have employees working at these hotels and resorts.  Those employees need housing, schools, stores, water and sewer systems, and roads to get them there.  You have to have employees working at the industries that support the employees that work at the hotels and resorts that provide the experience to the tourist that makes them want to return.  And on and on and on.  It's all inter-related.  Tourism drives Florida's economy but you cannot support tourism without the construction industry.  If the most basic construction material goes up in price by, as some theorize, a factor of ten or more, those extra costs must be passed on and eventually the tourists ends up paying for it.  At some point, Florida becomes too expensive and the tourists move on (I'm not suggesting a complete collapse but certainly a big impact).  In the meantime, the people who live in Florida become mired down in ever increasing taxes (that's what pays for road construction and improvements) and costs (everything becomes more expensive as the increase in construction costs are passed through to the consumer) that expendable income becomes severely impacted.  Don't forget also that as construction costs sky-rocket, projects are cancelled, tens of thousands of jobs are lost and not just in the construction industry.  There will be a ripple effect throughout the economy.  No matter how you slice it, this is not a good thing for Florida's economy.

I was just out there Thursday the 16th fishing. The roads all seemed in the same condition from what I remember but they are cutting down the palms and selling them according to the Forestry guy we talked to.

www.tbo.com/news/reports/everglades/.com


edit :I cant get this article to come up.

Thanks for the lesson in economics. I understand my point of view probably upsets you being in the construction industry, but in case you missed it last time, South Florida has already weathered a complete collapse of the 'NEW' construction industry a few times in the past quite well.

To try and say a moratorium on new construction will affect us in a catastrophic way is absurd, we have plenty of tourist driven taxes in place to fund our roads and quite a few more things that benefit the residents. Packing 5 million more people in here for a few new tax dollars is not the answer, and will only keep these tens of thousands of workers with food on their tables for a very limited time. It is unsustainable, we are nearly built out. When the roads are packed full of locals with no jobs, and no affordable housing, no one will have a reason to come here. As I watch every trailer park surrounding me be torn up and developed to make room for even more folks, I can't help but laugh at the fact we will have no where for anyone in the service industry to live in just a few short years, and I fail to see how a bunch of new million dollar homes will change that.

Obviously your short sited view is shared by the lawmakers and government, so you are in no danger from 'idiots' like me who don't want to see paradise lost. You all are well on the way to fulfilling the destiny laid out for us by the developers, sfwmd and the Broward commissioners.

If you go back and browse through this thread, you will not find anything anywhere regarding any moratoriums on building.  Foreman1 asked why nobody is closing the Lake Belt mines.  I informed him the mines were already closed but this is not a good thing for Florida's economy.  Even if all additional growth stopped, you still need to maintain and replace roads, highways, structures, etc.  Again, if the most basic of building materials goes up by the amounts that are being discussed, your $2.00 garden stepping stone will now cost you 3 to 4 times as much.  Imagine what effect that type of change will have on the cost of resurfacing one mile of roadway or even the expenses for such enterprises as Habitat for Humanity.  The loss of Paradise started a long time ago and has nothing to do with politics.  It has more to do with your vaunted tourism industry than any other factor.  How many of us ended up here because we (or our parents or grand-parents) came to Florida as tourists and thought "What a great place to live.  I think I'll move here." ?  Politicians and SFWMD only manage what the developers try to build.  So don't blame them for your loss, blame Paradise itself.

People have been screaming about this for years, I am certainly not the first one to have this opinion, the only difference is I always laughed at them and called them idiots until recently.

http://www.sfwmd.gov/org/pld/proj/lakebelt/legislation.html
It has always sounded like politics and a plumbing job to me, furthermore all this sounds like propaganda from here: http://www.keepfloridarockin.org/whatsnew.html

I'm sorry if a bunch of gloom and doom predictions from Callaway and his lobbyists don't scare me anymore that the BS SFWMD has been feeding us about a water shortage, after dumping most of the lake into the ocean.

I am not new here and have seen it all. I honestly don't know why my stepping stones will cost 3x more than the rest of the countries because we aren't mining rock here, but I do understand why a guy with the handle digginfool, who most likely runs a drag line at this place would get pissed off at the suggestion closing them down just might be the right thing to do for South Florida though.

I'm sorry I feel Florida has been 'rocked' enough already IMO.

A better question to ask is, "Why has nearly every native son left here?"

I read through this part of the debate on this thread, and agree with both sides.  That complete collapse of contruction can not happen.  Also, the demise of the parts of South Florida that brings the tourists will kill what we have even more.

Of course we still need to maintain existing roads and buildings, repair after the storms and improve the run down areas.
But do we need to another 60acres of chitty zero lot line homes going farther and farther west?  How do those homes help the tourist industry?

Now my thinking also goes like this, they predict this huge population burst in south florida and I keep thinking back to that phrase "Build it and they will come" (field of dreams 1989).  Wouldn't it make sense that if we "didn't" build they wont come?

This is already showing progress on the illegal immigration front.  Remove the jobs and they wont come.  So he just need to remove the houses.
Makes sense to me...

But just what do you believe they will do with all of the land surrounding the lakes they have dredged?  Should make for some nice, waterfront homes of all valuations.  There's not much that can be done with 30-60' deep lakes to restore sheet flow in the Everglades.  BTW, Jack, I don't operate a dragline.  I'm a civil engineer, own my own company and don't even use aggregates all that much but the related businesses in my industry will be severely impacted.  More info to come regarding the Lake Belt suit.

Diggin ,
I have to admit ,I too thought you were a dragline operator and figured I hit a nerve with the Lake Belt area .Anyhow , good debate , lots good info and points of view exchanged here .

Now what was the original topic of this thread before I mentioned the lake belt????? :dunno.gif

How much the fine is to ride badluck. ;)

Fines apply only if ya get caught , run a quiet bike . :d

Jack, after looking at the information I have here at the office, the link you posted to Keep Florida Rockin' pretty much covers it all.  If you read the articles and follow the links, you will see this is not a good thing for Florida's economy.  Granted, the numbers published are extrapolated from the FDOT report and might not be totally accurate, but it is a good indication of how this ruling will affect each and every one of us.

I do plan to read it further, but It reminds me of the report on children's safety on atvs from the the parents of dead and injured children's site vs the atv manufacturers safety site. Very contrasting views. I wish the travel agents had a comparable site to the rockin one. ;)

It's true that each group will always spin the evidence to support their side but when you have the State of Florida Department of Transportation pushing to keep the mines open, especially when the State has repeatedly shown it will lean towards the conservationists on land use issues, it's a fairly good indication that the threat is for real.  One of the alternatives the aggregate suppliers are looking at is the purchase of small chains of islands in the Bahamas.  Those un-inhabited islands would be dug up for their limestone, put on barges, and shipped to Florida.  So you tell me, would you rather have the Lake Belt mines open or see the start of the destruction of the Bahamas?  Limestone is one of the most important construction materials.  It provides the bedding for out roadways, it is the primary raw material in the production of cement, limestone aggregate is mixed with the cement to make concrete.  There are no alternative sources of limestone that can produce the quality and quantity of limestone the Lake Belt region does that doesn't involve huge distances and the associated enormous transport expense.  The whole mess started when benzene was detected in the waters of the dragline pits.  The source of the benzene was traced back to the blasting caps that were being used.  Even though the mine operators changed to a different blasting cap, the Sierra Club had already swayed the judge to their side and the closure eventually went through.  This is a battle that has been waged under the media radar for several years.  Don't get me wrong; I'm all for protecting the environment but at some point, you have to draw the line when conservation becomes so cost-prohibitive that you seriously impact the lives of those for who you try to protect.  Does it make any sense to destroy tens of thousands of jobs, expend billions of taxpayer's dollars, just to 'save' a couple thousand acres of land that will ultimately end up being residential and commercial developments anyways if they are not used for the landowner's intended purpose?  And let me re-iterate that; the Lake Belt lands are privately owned land.  This is not public land being used by private concerns.  Aside from the benzene issue (which has been resolved), the mining activities do not impact the environment in any manner.  It is an issue where one group (the Sierra Club) is telling another group (the mine owners) what they can and cannot do with their own property; activities that have been going on for 50 years.  This is not an issue that one person should have the right to determine; Judge Hoeveler.  In fact, this person does not have the right.  It is an abuse of judicial powers.  The legislature is the only branch that has the right to create laws.  The judicial branch only has the authority to determine if the laws breach the terms of the Constitution.  Judge Hoeveler denied the mine owners due process.  The truly disturbing part of it is that not only has he denied them their Constitutional rights, but he has denied them their source of income while burdening them with the expense of fighting his abuse of power.  All the while, thousands of jobs have been immediately lost while tens of thousands more hang in the balance, waiting for the trickle-down effect.

Poisoned Well a Miami New Times article.
http://news.miaminewtimes.com/2008-03-20/news/poisoned-well/
Off topic , Lake Belt discussion revisited.
Good article.

What was contaminating our drinking water? Who knows - Dade officials stopped looking.


By Isaiah Thompson 
Published: March 20, 2008
·   Jeffrey Delannoy
 
The benzene contamination came to light only after activist Barbara Lange (pictured with attorney Paul Schwiep) stumbled upon it while leafing through a public records request.
·   Jeffrey Delannoy
 
On his radio show, Miami Lakes councilman and attorney Mike Pizzi has made it his mission to go after WASD head John Renfrow (right).
Subject(s): water supply, benzene contamination, North Miami-Dade, rock mining
Bill Brant, then-director of Miami-Dade County Water and Sewer Department, got the news January 4, 2005: Benzene, a cancer-causing chemical, had been detected at a county water treatment facility. It was coming from the Northwest Wellfield, which supplies the majority of the county's drinking water. One of 15 wells there had registered benzene levels five times the limit established by the Environmental Protection Agency. Somewhere, somehow, a dangerous amount of the chemical had entered the water supply.
 
Benzene, used in everything from shaving cream to industrial lubricant, became a fuel additive in the Sixties, which released it into the air and occasionally, when it spilled, into the water. In 1977, after exposure to the chemical was found to increase incidents of leukemia, it was listed by the EPA as a hazardous pollutant.
The legal limit for benzene in drinking water is one part per billion. Brant's staff had found five parts per billion in the water. Brant ordered the contaminated well — and four neighboring wells — shut down until the source was detected. Within a few weeks, samples from a second well — now closed — also registered traces of benzene. By that time, Brant had already called for a full-scale investigation, regardless of cost, which grew to nearly $1 million in a few months. The investigation might have cost the director his job.
A public servant for more than 30 years, Brant was hardly known for heroics. He was a bureaucrat, a bean counter who rose through the ranks of the Water and Sewer Department (WASD) — and, before that, the county's Department of Environmental Resource Management (DERM) — slowly and unglamorously, one small, steady step at a time. Indeed many environmentalists saw Brant as cautious to a fault, reluctant to rock the boat when county politics and water science were at odds with each other.
Not this time. The discovery of benzene in the Northwest Wellfield, Brant would later testify in a court hearing, deeply disturbed him. "Benzene didn't belong in our wellfield," he would say later. "We were very alarmed."
Click here to view maps and pictures of the wellfields.
Had Brant had any inkling of what was to come, he might have been even more alarmed. The investigation, which would consume the rest of his career in Miami, would never be completed. The contamination continued for years and wasn't brought to the public's attention by the county. Instead, facts brought to light in later testimony — as well as new findings by New Times — suggest the mystery of benzene was never meant to be solved. Questions about what caused the carcinogen to enter the water supply — and whether it could happen again — remain unanswered.
South Florida depends on one source for all of its potable water: the vast underground sea of clean, fresh water known as the Biscayne Aquifer. The majority of Miami's water — about 150 million gallons per day — is drawn from the Northwest Wellfield, a roughly 2,000-acre area situated in the muddy, desolate wetlands west of Florida's Turnpike.
The remote, half-wild location was supposed to ensure that Miami-Dade's drinking water would be pumped from a source safe from contamination by development and industry. Until now, it had worked.
Click here to read more of Brant's testimony.
The threat was not immediate. The Hialeah water treatment facility is capable of removing benzene at up to about 250 parts per billion from water and releasing it into the air. But relying on man-made, and therefore fallible, treatment went against Brant's basic principle of protecting our water at the source. "The approach has always been not to rely on any kind of a water treatment plan, but to look at it as a back-up system and always keep the water supply itself, the groundwater supply itself, pure," he later testified.
The Northwest Wellfield was the last pristine water source left in the county; for Brant, its contamination was a tragedy. More disturbing than the tainting itself was the fact that neither Brant nor anyone else had a clue what the source might be.
Days after the benzene was discovered, Brant assembled a team to investigate. Ana Caveda, who had spent years probing environmental contaminations, toxic spills, and pollution cases, was chosen as its leader.
"[WASD assistant director George Rodriguez] told me to put my hound dog nose to the ground to investigate the benzene," she later testified. "It was an emergency — because our source of potable drinking water was at stake." (None of the WASD employees involved in the investigation could be reached for comment.)
She and the three other members of the team set up base camp — a fold-out canopy and a couple of lawn chairs — in the wellfield next to Production Well 1, where the contamination had first been detected. For the next seven months, Caveda spent nearly every working moment in the wellfield, trying to track down the source of the benzene, most commonly the result of spills from petroleum products.
Caveda explored the area by swamp buggy and by foot. She combed the lonely woods, finding ancient paths and following endless miles of ATV tracks into the remote, swampy muck. She found the remains of old fires, abandoned scrap heaps, and even a half-submerged fuel storage tank and a car that had been dumped in a nearby lake. All were quickly ruled out.
Brant's team had begun exploring the possibility that the benzene was originating from a deeper and more distant source. The chemical, according to Bill Pitt, a professional civil engineer and hydrologist on Brant's team, was being drawn into the wells; it couldn't possibly be coming from nearby, for it would have to flow against the current created by the pumps.

But if it wasn't a spill, what was the cause? There is only one industrial presence in the area: rock mining. The wellfield is bordered by rock mines owned by White Rock Quarries and Florida Rock. As Brant's team followed the path of ever-higher concentrations of benzene, it led them south and east — right to the rock mines.
Anyone considering moving to Mars might want to have a look at the White Rock quarry to get a feel for the view. Situated directly between the communities of western Miami-Dade County and the wellfield that supplies their water, the quarry is a vast, blinding expanse of white — the color of crushed limestone — set against a backdrop of scraggly, grayish-green vegetation.
The quarry sits at the very end of NW 58th Street, past the seemingly endless strip malls, big-box stores, and cookie-cutter subdivisions — all built with Florida limestone — where the road abruptly narrows and appears to end in the bushes. It doesn't end, though; behind the brush, it opens onto another world.
Massive earth movers, caked in a gray crust of mud and dust, rumble along the road, hauling piles of crushed limestone. Near the quarry entrance stands a shack, a small cafeteria for the workers, its plastic tables outside turned gray with a coat of limestone powder. To the south is the mining pit — a vast, almost perfectly square lake, its water an unnatural, almost turquoise hue, stretching far into the distance.
It just so happens limestone, the same material that contains and naturally filters all of South Florida's drinking water, makes great concrete. It has been mined in this area since the Fifties. In the late Nineties, the Florida Legislature set aside for mining companies the so-called Lake Belt region, of which the Northwest Wellfield is a part. The "lakes" are the result of blasting and are large enough to be seen from space.
Florida produces and consumes more rock — crushed limestone in particular — than any other state except California. Without the cheap rock coming out of the Everglades, the building of South Florida as we know it today would not have been possible.
Florida's development boom gave the rock miners unprecedented wealth to invest. They bought political influence, hiring high-profile lobbyists such as Ron Book, Kerri Barsh, former County Manager Sergio Pereira, and Miami megalawyer Miguel De Grandy. In 2004, De Grandy successfully lobbied the county commission to do away with requiring rock miners to hold public hearings in order to obtain permits.
Among the sponsors of that ordinance was Commissioner Natacha Seijas, one of the miners' most loyal allies. In her 2004 re-election campaign, she received at least $2,500 from 13 donors connected to the mining industry, including Barsh and De Grandy. In addition, in 2006, White Rock Quarries and Barsh's law firm contributed a combined $10,000 to a committee fighting Seijas's recall.
Brant's team had begun to suspect the benzene was coming from the rock mines. For one thing, in an area otherwise devoid of development or industry, it was impossible not to notice the proximity of the mines, whose operations had expanded right up to the edge of the wellfield. Getting to the pumps required a drive through a rock mine.
Early in her investigation, Caveda passed through property leased by Florida Rock to get to a monitoring well. She asked her escort, the environmental manager for the site, how the mining process worked. She learned that as many as 40 four-inch-wide holes were drilled into the ground, filled with explosives, and blown up. The holes, Caveda noted with special interest, were drilled 60 feet deep — the same depth at which the highest levels of benzene were being found. She began inquiring about the nature of the fuel the company used and learned that most of the mining firms were using ANFO — ammonium nitrate fuel oil — of which a small constituent is benzene.
The miners denied the blasting could have anything to do with the contamination... 
to read more ...   
http://news.miaminewtimes.com/2008-03-20/news/poisoned-well/