ATV Florida Forum

I've posted these questions in the M&J board but got zero answers so far. So, I will try in this board in the hopes that more will read and answer.

Okay, I'm being sincere here. I honestly and respectfully request that these questions (which have been asked of RRPOA members, directors, and officers, as well as of M&J Lands on numerous occasions) be answered. Not stirring anything up. I just think it is extremely important for proper honest answers to exist to these questions. The reason? Because these are the exact questions the State and it's agencies will ask when the ultimate decision is made on River Ranch and it's future. I for one hope we can all keep River Ranch open and accessible for the future and would hate to see us lose it.

So, here they are:
RRPOA Rules and Questions about the same -

1) You may not build on your property.

Question– Are you kidding me? Let me get this straight, I own the property and I cannot build on it? Well, here's a very simple question.......why not? Who made up this rule and what legal right do they have to: (a) create this rule; and (b) enforce this rule?

2) You may only pick a camp site in the "camp site area" which must be approved by the property owners association.

Question– Who owns the camp site area? Do I get express permission, in recordable format, from the camp site area owners to build a camp on their property? I mean, everyone knows that, if you don't own the property, you cannot legally build on it. So, seeing how I am not a complete idiot I certainly wouldn't want to build on or occupy another person's property without their express permission. I mean after all, they could basically kick me off at any time. Also, who is the property owners association and why do they have to approve my camp site? Are they the owners of the camp site area? If they are, then I guess I better be sure I get written approval from them to put my camp in the "camping area".

3) You may not build permanant structures on your camp site.

Question– You mean like most of the “camps” already there? Why not?

4) Anyone can cross your property who is a member of the River Ranch Property Owners Association.

Question- Why? Do they have an easement recorded in the Polk County public records. Because, after all, absent express written permission from me, a recorded easement is the only way anyone else can lawfully enter my property. What if I don't want anyone else on my property? Can I fence it off? If I do, will my fence get torn down and run over like Dennis Covington's camp and jeep did?

5) Dues of 60 dollars a year are required. (Also, those guest fees really add up to a ton of money.)

Question– For what? What does my $60.00 get me? What happens if I don't pay it? Can I please see a copy of the accounting for the last ten (10) years of the association, inclusive of any monies paid to association officers? Also, while you’re at it, how about the tax returns? After all, under Florida law, as a paying member of the River Ranch Property Owners Association, I’m entitled to these documents.


6) If you wish to have your lot surveyed you do so at your own expense. But you can not build on it, or set up camp on it if it is outside the camp area.

Question– What is the purpose of this rule? Do you think I’d try to make someone else pay for my survey? Again, why can’t I build on my property? If it’s mine........ it’s mine. I mean, you wouldn’t buy a lot in a subdivision unless you could build on it would you? Has anyone looked for or found any law, regulation, code or other authority preventing me from building on my property?  Also, who owns the rest of the property I ride on? Does the River Ranch Property Owners Association have some type of recorded document allowing anyone who is a member of the association to utilize all of the property not belonging to them?

Anoriginal, You already broke the unwritten rule. 18 views and no posts should tell you something. All I can say is It Is What It Is. Good Luck.   

I obviously don't own in RR, but I have thought about it, and it's rules.

I would say from the outside looking in that if you don't abide by the rules they have set up, that they cannot deny you access to your plot of land once you know exactly where it is, but they do not have to allow you access to the rest of the property or facilities contained therein.

So, by getting your money and getting you to sign the rules, you are agreeing the abide by their rules and everyone is somewhat happy.

Of course on the same note, how is anyone to make sure you stay on your plot of land and don't go riding around?  How would a tresspass warrant be served for that action?

very interesting questions, and I hope this doesn't turn into a batle of the RR and you get your questions answered,,,,because one day I hope to have the money to get a plot in there of my own and would like to know the answers myself.

Id@

Why don't you call Scotty???

I've talked to Scott. He's as confused as I am.

I see this as a double edged sword personally.

I wish it was more affordable personally but I understand whay they price it the way they do.....

I was talking to an old cod the other day about RR and his remark was to the affect that it is a Hunt camp and the only people complaining are the recreational riders and that we should be happy they allow us in there to ride durring the off season....

I already had a hunter aim his rifle at me in the ONF durring Hunt season because I stopped to wait for fellow riders to catch up and was sitting where supposedly his dogs were coming through to flush the deer...I dont want to ride anywhere they allow guns......

I have heard about how nice it is out there but I guess I will have to take there word for it do to the price they ask to be a member.....

Anoriginal, you don't even know what your talking about!!!! The dues are $120/year, lol.
Like VForceDave said, It is what it is. Not legal, Not ethical, but a place to hunt/ride and has been this way for almost 30years in Polk County. When I think about it, it is a really screwed up situation, but I also grew up in Polk County and it has always been there and never really questioned so I just go with it.

Matt, I dont understand how they get away with it. I can tell you I have heard some stories about stuff out there, that if it was said to me there would have been some serious problems. I just dont worry about it and keep to myself and its all good.

Its the blind leading the blind. Kinda like Vegas, What happens at RR stays at RR. I grew up in Polk as well & like he said it has just always been there & every one always knew someone who had "land" out there. I have relatives who surveyed their land in the early 80's & built on it a heck of a camp, but all the vandalism & theft that goes on out there has caused them to stay away for the last 15years. It is the popularity of selling the lots ouside of the local area & on the net that has finally brought heat to this topic. I would bet that your questions wont get answered especially on this forum if at all.

You might have your family go check it out again.  There is very very little vandalism out there anymore.  Every so often you hear of little stuff missing from a camp but that's so few and far between.  Since they limited the guests out there I personally have seen alot of change in things for the better as far as vandalism.

Thanks for the responses folks. I think the majority of the folks on this board who go to RR are great people who only want to ride and respect the property they ride upon.

The general consensus seems to be that RR is a scam and that someone's pockets are being lined very well. However, most are willing to pay what is necessary to have access to ride.

You know, someone could make some serious money by purchasing a parcel right on the highway and putting in your own gate. You could go into the property, stake off an area and designate it "the camp area" for people to set up pseudo-temporary camps. Then, you could put in a gate, charge admission and allow people to ride for the day. Say $30.00 per rider for the day. Memberships would cost you more for the year. Property owners who could show a deed would be allowed to set up camp in the designated area provided they paid you fees to be a member. Also, you could allow people to camp just for the weekend for a set price.

You would make a ton of money. Granted, you'd need to make sure the road that you put into the camp area was maintained, but how cheap is that? I mean you can hire someone with a tractor and a blade for a few hundred bucks a few times per month to grade it. Or, with all the money you'd make, you'll have more than enough to buy your own tractor and grade it. Your expenses would be minimal at best. I mean, you are not paying taxes on anything nor will you have any other form of overhead.

Seems like a great idea to me.

The hornets are buzzing, but not stinging. By law it is all a scam, by east polk law it is an "unwritten law" written by RRPOA. These guys are preying on ATV riders not hunters & then bitching that the atv riders are too loud & stirring up the hunt area.

I'm thinking about the RRATVRA (River Ranch ATV Riders Association).

Hmmmm.  ;)

Here is a question for you:

If everyone knew where their 1 1/4 acre property was and then fenced it off, where would you ride???  On your 1 1/4 acre only?

Yes, unless you had written permission to ride on the other property. The reasoning is no different than expecting your neighbor to allow you to build your swimming pool in his back yard. It's not your property so why should you have any right to use it? So, the answer to your question is yes.

See...that's why RR has the system in place.  Think of it as a co-op.  Everyone gets to use everyone else's property.  The camp assignment gives you a place to lay your head at night...I can't wait to go again!!

They must subscribe to Bill Clintons school of thought, remember the dont ask dont tell rule for gays in the military. Same thing here. Or Skynyrd's song, "Dont ask me no questions & I wont tell you no lies." I guess it is all good for the ones involved. From my past experience, you might as well give up hope for any answers because it just wont happen here. Some will side with you & more will side with RR. The plot owners are like an oppressed people. The big man(RRPOA) says jump(pay more money) & they jump(pay more money).

Sure looks that way. I am not one to run through life with blinders so I tend to ask a lot of questions about things. Especially when they're this obvious.

Let me start by saying that I,m not on either side. I don't own at RR and I don't pretend to know the rules there either BUT, it sure seems funny that these questions are being asked and accusations are being made and not one representative from the association has replied to deny or explain anything. I don't know enough about it to make a decision on whos right or wrong but I must admit Anoriginal tips the scales based on their lack of response alone. Just my opinion from outside looking in. Even if all that anoriginal says were true I would still buy at RR if I had the extra money.

Yeah, it really makes you wonder. I sat online and watched M&J Lands review my post and make no attempt to address the questions. I even e mailed them directly. No response.

The truth is, I know these questions cannot be answered because what's going on is not on the up and up. Nobody can properly answer these questions. However, they should try. Why? Because they are the EXACT same questions the state and feds will ask when the property acqusition fight starts. Oh, and you better believe it's on its way.

I pushed all this a year ago & ended up having a pm sent to me from m&j basically telling me to stfu  & I responded back to them but didnt abbreviate the cuss words & I got banned from the site for 3 days. I left it alone after that because the sponsor had more pull than me. I was expressing my opinion on an open forum & they pmd me. I am glad to see a lawyer who sees it my way. i too wont go through life with blinders & cant stand unanswered questions about shady dealings.

To me, the saddest part is all the people who just go along with it without asking questions. Notice there still haven't been any attempts to answer?

Everyone dislikes me anyway so here it goes. ;D

1. They openly sell Deeds and Plots here on this Website
2. Obvious Members of the RRPOA ( Committee) are postting among us
3. You are not supposed to Talk about RR here Unless you "PAY" for the Special Thread Section
4. Very Rare a Question gets answered in an Open Forum YET it is OK to Sell the Land Openly

So even though you have Paid to be a RRPOA ..and you know the Committee Members and The Gentlemen Selling the Plots....YOU HAVE NO RIGHT ..to ask Questions...Because the Moral Majority say..."It is what it Is, shut up and ride"

This is not my opinion...these are the facts Gathered from posts in the open forum. , Hopefully this offers Insight to anyone concerned as to why Someone would ask these questions.

I think the idea of letting every one find their lot and fence is off  and build on it, is really dumb. At that time you would have to call it a subdivision and hunting would no longer be allowed, if residences where allowed. I dont like the rules either, but I knew them prior to the purchase of my land many years ago. I and many others believe it petty to dwell on this. With all the stress of work, kids and just the daily grind , it makes this seem very "unimportant" to me and many that I know that are owners, we just want to show up and ride. I hope you get answers to your questions , BUT!!  Be careful what you wish for , the more crap thats stirred up just may cause an end to possibly the best riding left from north dade to orange county.

       just my .02

just a small correction, you do not have to pay to gain access to the above-mentioned section of this site, only prove that you are a landowner by showing a deed.

that's my understanding at least.

I@

Joedirt:

Very good points. I think you're hitting it right on the head. Pretty bizzare how things are handled. I know the RRPOA board members read this yet they do not respond. Why? Come on guys! Here's your chance to show you're legitimate.

Sombch:

I totally understand the positions you take on the issue. You just want to ride and don't care about the details. I can appreciate that. However, this stuff needs to be stirred now with answered reached before the attacks start coming from the land acquisition folks. Opening up a discussion, getting good answers in place and bringing things to the open verses keeping them secrete and not answering anyone will only help us in the future.

I go to ride there as a total last resort. It may be the best riding for ute's, but show up out there on a sport quad & you get the evil stares like you are intruding. I truly dont even care to take my quad out there we just ride the buggy.

Is America great or what?  RR is what it is.  It is basically a big co-op for all land owners to use.  You get a camp site for private use.  You get 70,000 plus acres to ride and hunt.  You have people employed who offer security, street maintenance, and fire services for a piddley $120 per year.

Find me another place like it and you will get my attention.

I agree 200%...I truly do....I just do not know why pee-ons like myself have to speculate as to the reasons why...

I do not doubt for a minute that it's a good deal for the money. However, my concern is keeping it long term.

Nothing is ever definite.  If the government wanted to come take your property, they could today but would have to pay for it. Same with RR except that property is on their radar screen versus yours isn't (I think) :o

RR is absolutely on the screen and being considered. There is a surplus of funds for acqusition. RR is a top category parcel in the Bombing Range Ridge plan.

bummer....at least they have to pay us a fair price (market price) for the property per emminent domain regs.   :D

You might be suprised.  because what is fair to you and the market, is not always what is fair to the government.  the government will pay what they want no matter what.

Yeah I pretty much agree with Gary. Along with cableguy1 im way on the outside looking in with a telescope cause I live in Jacksonville and the only thing I know is what i have read. But it sound like a pretty good deal. I can see the whole not building because then you would have your little postage stamp to ride on and nothing else unless you gathered up 1,000s of easements to ride around on. As far as the management goes, im sure they are just in it for the money. But that is how the world runs. Its all the power of a dollar. So you can fight the government and orginzatons and everyone else but in the end, you alone are not going to change anything. Mabye if a bunch of people really started complaining then something might get done but you alone are pretty much just an extra 120per year. Its sad but true. But if you really start poking the bear with a stick it might just turn around and bite you and then it could be gone. So your best bet is to take the M&J approach and STFU and ride. Try an see if you can get some support at the rally.


       Bottom line: Dont be a hero and show up May 19th and try to get more support then just you.

OK, surmise this.  RRPOA decides next week dues are now 1200.00/yr, OK I have a large investment, its still all good.  They take your money and the next day they tell you your approved campsite now has a yearly maintenence fee of 5000.00 and a yearly lease of 5000.00, and you are not allowed to re-enter until you pay.  Do you have legal rights to your personal property and your lot. Or is it vigilante justice, you know, just shut-up and go with it, its the way it is?    Again I ask M&J Lands/RRPOA step up to the plate and give us some answers.  When you thought you had a consensus in your favor on Anoriginals other post, you were quick to post a pathetic good ol' boy answer.  How about some real backbone to put aside all the conjecture and assumptions, and give us the way it is. 
    RR seems like a great place, lets do what it takes to protect it for the future for us to have a place to retreat from the asphalt and steel which is quickly encompassing our state.   Thanks

Actually, if all the "members" transferred their property over to the RRPOA, the RRPOA gets the money.

Leblanc's - They're not going to respond. I find it incredibly irresponsible.

Madmudder - The "bear" sure isn't the RRPOA. The bear is the state and federal land acquisition folks. As far as the rally goes, I have no intention of bringing it up but, will vehemently participate if the topic arises. I'd enjoy some constructive discussion on the topic.

For those that would like to see the property stay out of the governments hands.  To the best of my knowledge the way to do this is to purchase land and sign the conservation easment papers.  As for what they would pay us if they took the land.  Sorry gary but you're gonna be lucky to see 1/4 of what you paid for your deed.  That property value is very low which is why we only pay $12/ year in taxes on it.  It is valuable to those of us that use the land the way it is for recreation.  But for any other purposes it's not very valuable and is wetlands.

Just my .02.  Not sure how accurate I am this is what I've gathered.

The "conservation easement" will do absolutely nothing to keep the government from enforcing its eminent domain powers. When they implement a taking of a large parcel of property they do not look at a so called "conservation easement". Instead, they look at the improvements to your actual parcel of property (not the parcel assigned to you in a so called camping area). The current use combined with the historical use (sometimes) is what is considered. Nothing more.

Sorry, but that conservation easement is in my opinion just a way to make people feel better while at the same time granting more power to a rogue organization.

     I had a great time there this weekend ;D ;D ;D

                                Cheers,CyCole

                                     
                                                   

I hope you can continue doing so for years to come.

The saga continues.....still no answers. Kinda like Cool Hand Luke, "Thank you sir may I have another". RR basically is saying, pay me this & you can go here & if you dont like it then just Shut Up & deal with it!

It's very sad and extremely irresponsible but, it looks like it's true.

Actually Cool Hand Luke was "yes sir boss" , "Thank you sir may I have another " was Animal House . Incase anyone was wondering. ;)

You forgot to include future use and potential economic benefits to the area if use is changed.

I thought I may have been the only one who noticed that so I didn't say anything. Animal House."That was a classic"

Bottom line, the easement does ZERO.