ATV Florida Forum

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BOY, what a waste of time that was cleaning up the parking area!!!!!!!!

I just returned from riding out there THIS MORNING & the area is FULL of trash.  The first exclamation was by my son who bellowed out, "This is rediculous!!  We just cleaned this whole place up and look at it".

That is way too quick of a turn around from the clean up we just had.  I am thoroughly convinced there is not much time left out there for ATV's.  The accidents & trash alone gives them enough reason to shut it down.

Enjoy it while you can, cause it won't be long before it is another PROHIBITED area!! :tsktsk.gif

I can't believe it, people just don't give a crap any more.  The only riding place closest to Miami, Ft Lauderdale and Palm Beach and the place can't be kept up.  Well guys, you could kiss that place goodbye.  Thanks to the scumbag riders that don't care.

The same stooges look at you funny for having floorboards full of  Soda cans...like they have never seen someone give a crap....takes less effort to take your garbage with you than to leave it.

It's actually closer than you might think to being history. Two weeks ago myself and the other owners of our camp in the Big Cypress went down on our ATV's to check out the camp and to get an ATV inspected and tagged.

While we were getting the inspection, I spoke to the park ranger about ATV's. He said that it is really getting out of control in the Big Cypress and that the NPS along with the FWC were mulling around different "solutions" for the "ATV problem". While we were chatting, two FWC officers came up, one that I know personally. All three of these guys said that the single biggest complaint generator in the Everglades is the use of ATV's. Uninspected ATVs, reckless riding, littering, constant tresspassing on private camp property and vandalism are the big ones.

I was pretty sad about their comments to say the least. I own a camp in the Big Cypress and use my ATV to travel in and out when it's dry or when I don't have anyone going in with me. So, I really would like to see the ATV's continuously allowed. Regardless, we listened to them, got our inspections and headed to camp. The FWC guys went on for a long time about the Holeylands and how out of hand it is. They said that the ATV crowd is totally out of hand and has no respect for the place. Trash, drinking, drugs, speeding in the wrong areas, recklessness, theft, vandalism and tresspass are the big ones. They said that "everyone" is pushing to get the ATV's out of there and that it is just a matter of time.

Later that day, we traveled out from camp and took a route that led us further to the east than we normally go. All day I thought about what the NPS and FWC guys told me. On the way out, we stopped into see some folks at another camp with an airstrip that I'd previously only spoken to via telephone. When we pulled up (staying outside the fence which was clearly marked every 20 or so feet with no tresspassing signs) the owners came out on their buggy to speak to us. They quickly began to comment (unsolicited) about the ATV use and problems they've experienced.

They told us that they are constantly having people ride their ATV's under the cable fence surrounding their property (like I said, very well posted too) and onto their private airstrip. People drag race up and down the strip, tearing up the ground and even doing donuts. In addition, they've come into camp late at night only to find people on ATV's camping on their airstrip. Keep in mind, this is a 750,000 acre preserve that is available for riding, yet they choose to tresspass and tear up the airstrip.

Many private land owners report the same. ATV riders coming in, riding, drinking, trespassing, vandalising, riding after curfew and completely disregarding the rules. The NPS and the FWC are both tired of it. They, along with various other groups are revamping the ORV regulations in not only the Big Cypress, but many other ATV accessible locations. The general consensus is that ATV's are not welcome any longer.

I hate to see this happening. I know the majority of the people on this site respect places to ride and want to see us keep them. However, it's being ruined by idiots with no concept of decency or impact. I am afraid that within the next 3 to 5 years ATV's in the Big Cypress and Holeylands will be a thing of the past.  Off Rode's comments are just another shining example why.

I think that's a GENEROUS estimation to be truthful.  We are currently living on a stay of execution, sadly.

In addition to my original post, there was enough garbage there to fill the dump truck AGAIN and then some......

We need an offroad street sweeper truck, literally.

I think that FWC need to put thier feet down cause the 2 times we have been there u see some dumba$$e$ in really nice trucks dressed like they were going to a party with 2 or more Banshees riding crazy and it is like I say if they just start stopping some of these bikes and running #s I bet we can get a couple of bikes back to their owners no to say only shees but when you see a person with jeans new nikes and coller shirts theys guys are not there to ride and the way they ride just sucks up and down the main parking (1st) is messed up I was one of the guys doing the cleanup with my 2 kids and that kind of news just sucks but like I said also the people not cleaning up were lookin at us like WTF or these guys doing ? just sad we had a fellow park right by where we were I mean II that close and didnt get off his truck til we finished that area. just my .02

I don't know but maybe they need to charge some kind of fee for riding out there. That might keep the occasional knuckle head from going. That fee might fund more FWC officers for that specific area on the weekends, it's a ghost town during the week. I have noticed that when the FWC officer on the quad is in the area those that are non-compliant instantly become model citizens. If we lose that area my 4 quads are going in the trader. That is a cool place to ride 30 minutes from the house.     



   

I say we meet with FWC and try to find a solution to this problem. This is the only way we are going to keep this place.

I just called their office, the FWC holds public meetings and maybe we can attend to one regarding the future of Holey Land before it's too late.  I was told to call tomorrow so I will let you guys know. I will do what ever it takes to save this place so if anyone wants to join in let me know.

D where would it be out by you or here in palm bch?

I think it would be Palm Beach. I will find out tomorrow.

Opening up some lines of communication is a great thing to do. I think meeting with the FWC would show them that there are ATV riders out there that actually care about and appreciate a place to ride.

One word of caution though; be sure you have someone capable of communicating on a rational/educated level with them when you meet. The reason I say this is because I've heard several folks joking about someone from the ATV community who was the most vocal at the Picayune media day a few months back. I do not know who this person was or what they did. However, everyone seems to think he was a dunbazz. Most of the comments contained "ghetto", "gangsta" and "moron". So, probably need to pick one person to do the talking and have the rest show up in silent support.  We want to make sure anyone representing us leaves a good impression.

I'd try to make that meeting since I'm so close.  I can't say that I have a good gut feeling about succeeding on issues that have already put a permanent stain on this sport.

1st the  littering would be impossible to eliminate without the OFFENDERS themselves straightening up their own acts.
      I don't think that more FWC officers are going to be able to catch each person who litters & seemingly not alot of people feel
      obligated to pick up trash that isn't their own(not to mention trash that is their own).
      
I think that since the commission put up speed limit signs, perhaps NO LITTERING signs may help prime the pump.  Some type of dumpster or means to offer a place to get rid of one's own garbage --- but that takes $$$$.

2nd How do you decrease the BAD wrecks???  I don't know of how most occur but I'm willing to bet it's not while people are mud
      bogging.  It is probably more commonly related to speeding & poor judgement whether from alcohol/drugs or rider inexperience.

I think that perhaps they could BAN any alcohol.(Probably NOT a popular idea, but you have to give in order to get) Just ask anyone who has been to J.W. Corbett(No ATV's but it's a management area) = ZERO TOLERANCE for possessing alcohol - that means you cannot even have a closed container anywhere, not legally anyway & they do fine for it.  You can't tell if someone's on drugs & the FWC isn't going to conduct arrests & check drug screenings.  It doesn't happen with regular motorists so it isn't feasible.

The only other things I can think of really start to dig into the freedoms that currently exist out there but probably add to the problem since the honor system isn't working.  

I am not really willing to give up yet since it is such a nice place to ride.

  

Definitely, we don't need anymore BAD publicity. 

I think (IMHO) that they can start by implementing a helmet rule, along with mandatory inspections and tagging ATV's and banning double riding. That will go leaps and bounds to cutting out the idiots and reducing wrecks.

I saw 2 wrecks, in 20 minutes at the crossover on Saturday. Both involved knuckle heads doing wheelies on the bridge and levy, no helmets on either one, one rider ran into the back of one of his buddies doing a wheelie the other rider looped his bike. I also happened to be at Holey Land last year when there was a fatal crash and the rider had to be airlifted out of there.   

This is sad to hear... Myself and my son drove 2.5 hours to clean up and ride.

Dennis, keep me posted I'll come over for a meet with FWC if needed.

I personally know the captain for FWC here in Collier county. I don't know if he has any saying in that area. I will call him to discuss these problems and see if we can find any solutions before it's too late.....I will report back.Rick

THAT'S a huge component on PROHIBITING ATV's. 

It does seem ironic that they will fine you for having the wrong shaped safety flag all the while you don't need a thing to protect your coconut!! ???

I'm pretty sure that if FWC was a little more visible there on the weekends the silly crap would begin to go away. Like the folks that unload their quads right there at the parking area and ride like jerks in flip flops.   

FIVE-O:

What happened in the fatal crash? Reckless riding?

If theres a meeting we can attend.I say we mention something about am entrance fee???Like a 15 per Bike?Something that will keep the people not really interested in the sport out and the real riders in.Sorry if it was posted b4 but I havent read all the posts.Just pisses me off thinking that holy lands will be shut down because some a-holes dont know hot to clean after them selves  >:(

I was told that a rider was jumping the road on his quad. He was jumping from north to south, at the front crossover parking area. It was later in the afternoon on a Sunday. As I was getting back to the parking area from the west, I saw the PBSO Air Rescue chopper landing on the levee, as several people were administering CPR, it was a sad sight.     

if i remember the news, the rider was jumping the levee with no helmet on and crashed

Here is a related thread http://www.atvflorida.com/forum/index.php/topic,14616.msg190887.html#msg190887

D let me know I will do my best lets try to do something late like the meeting in collier on a fri at about 7-8pm that way more people can attend and as for the 2up riding i think that is not going to solve much an affect a lot cause as for like me and ScooterB we wher at the cleanup and then rode but he also had is boy and I had my kids also and we were not doing crazy so that rule will affect many people that go to have fun with kids

Is there seriously a speed limit on the levys?Ive never been there but on long straight dirt roads I really like going pretty FAST on my banshee?But I wont if theres a speed limit or if they are any minors or alot of other riders.Just wanting to know.Dont want to be the reason we have 1 less riding spot :)

yeah they posted up 35MPH signs

i thought it was 25 mph on a orv?

no I saw them Iam not sure on the levy but on the dirt roads they say 35MPH

Damn 35mph.I would hate to spend my whole day on the levs only going 35.Are the trails already wet?I have a banshee with bald tires and I hate mudding on it.

I rode all day Saturday, without a problem. We even rode to the green camp and back. The trail we took was so dry you could have probably ridden it in a car. My son rode it on his YZ125 leading the pack, good times. You know, the more I think about it, I would hate to lose that area!  :'( 

they changed the speed limits is rite its 35 all around. even in the parking area... now i go out every other weekend for probly 4years now.and most, not to point fingers but most wrecks ive seen are kids riding sport bikes doing wheelies, haulin..., and not watchin out for other bikes. i was there a few weeks ago when this group of kids none of them were over 16(we asked) all doing wheelies, doing wheelies with 2and3 people on a bike, and "stunting". all in the parking area ard crossover area. well bout an hour later kid was wheeling across the bridge started drifting tward the wall so he landed it and plowed his buddys banshee. i mean plowed his axle was almost in a 90. but when he hit he and his bike flipped over foward. and he skinned a good section of his head, and had to be lifeflighted out to the hospital.i dont know how it turned out for him but he was pretty bad off.

and another big problem is people jumping the levi. the parking lot is for parking. if anyone should ride there it should be the little kids, just puttin areund daddys truck, tryin to get into the sport. they dont need to be getting scared off by peoply landing jumps on them, or haulin by them.. i dont even park in those lots any more, cause i dont know about you but i sure did not buy a thirty plus thousand dollar truck for someone to come spray rocks at, and dust out my truck.

now if u want to go fast there is plenty of place to do that.. just not on the levis.if you drive down the south side levi there is plenty of well cleared trails to go fast on, go there. its dry now, but kinda cold.. i had a chat with a fwc officer when they opted for the flag rule. and he said the one thing that causes alot of accidents is haulin down the paved road on atvs (which is as illegal as driving down the highway) and trucks too. people fish all up and down this road got to be respectful of them too.

Someone from FWC will call me tomorrow concerning the issues at Holey Land. I will keep you posted.

The following rules apply at Holey Land: 

1. All ATV's must have flags
2. All children under the age of 16 must wear eye protection and a helmet
3. Speed limit on the levees is 35 MPH & they are posted.

My buddy John was 2 up with his 6 yr old and he was stopped by FWC and they told him he was endangering a minor and told him to pack up. I never heard of this at Holey Land, has anyone ?

This is pretty much what I was talking about on another thread regarding this same subject.  FWC will slowly tighten the screws until people conform or until there is no alternative but shut it down.  I'll admit that my wife and I have ridden two up with our children out there but always at safe speeds.  Those that rode with my family on the cleanup ride know my kids ride with helmet and chest protector and are well schooled in proper riding technique (although the boy's got to be reeled in from time to time).  I'm fortunate enough to be able to go out and purchase a two-up machine which has always seemed a bit silly to me when your typical quad has a seat that is plenty large enough for two people and has weight ratings for the front and rear racks that exceed the weight of any passenger that you would want to sit with you (at a distance that is well away from the center of gravity, btw).  It's really not the fact that you have two people on a quad; it's the fact that you have someone at the controls that has not considered the consequences of the added weight and difference in handling that weight will make, not to mention the "Hey, Watch This" factor.  What really irritates me is that I'm having to go out and spend nearly $10,000.00 on a quad so that my three year old can join the rest of the family riding and another $80.00 on a helmet that is too big for her because nobody manufactures a helmet that fits a small child properly.  So, at the end of the day, I'll have $30,000+ wrapped up in quads, trailer and gear that I probably won't be able to use out there anymore because FWC will prove once again that you can't legislate common sense.  BTW, it really doesn't surprise me that it's such a mess out there again already.  As I was packing up to leave the day of the cleanup, I saw small piles of trash next to a couple trucks that were parked over on the side I was parked.  I knew they probably wouldn't take it with them.  It's a damn shame.

if the bike wasnt meant for two people then it's illegal to ride two people.

1. The flags are supposed to be 10 X 12 (at least) rectangular.  There aren't many places that sell them in that shape compared to the triangles.

3. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do believe the posted speed limit is 30 ???

Buy 10x12s @ Holiday Park.

What it all comes down to is a minority of the ATV crowd ruining it for the majority. Digginfool's post is indicative of the type of person that: (a) respects places to ride; (b) properly educates and teaches his kids how to ride respectfully; and (c) is the type of person who will feel the impact of other's stupidity.

I guarantee you that when they require a title and inspections to ride, along with an ORV license like Big Cypress, and you'll see a drastic change. If not, we'll have ourselves another Cecil Webb area for buggies only.

I know how you guys feel I've gone to places I never rode at and ended up picking up trash for an hour or two before I even rode.

Folks...Its not just in the offroading community. In reality its what the world is comming to. Nobody has any more respect for anything. Weather is driving down the road, throwing trash down on the ground, vandelisum, personal respect to each other and so on and its only getting worse.  Makes me sick. Hollyland will be another Picayune State forest. 

Hey guys, still waiting for FWC to call me.  will keep you posted.

I keep thinking if there was a charge to ride in places (which I don't like the idea but) it would slow down the litering and all the disrespect but that isn't true.  One time at C&R we got there early and left late.  C&R was spotless when we got there and trashed when we left I couldn't believe it,  I feel sorry the C&R have to clean up that kinda mess everytime.

     Swamper

You just answered your own question; if you charge, then you get to clean up the mess.  When was the last time you went to a restaurant or hotel and cleaned your own mess?  How about the carnival?  Did you clean up there?  No, because you figured if you had to pay to play then you don't have to pick up after yourself.  Doesn't change the fact that it's still disrespectful to be a pig but charging isn't going to change anything.

Yea I know.... I just don't know what is a good solution would be that was kinda my point.  The whole deal sucks.  Got to keep the old boy scout motto... pick up more than you left. 

D I if you can get fwc to get us a stop sign like the ones they use for the hunting season traffic maybe I/we (anyone willing to help) I will make some flyers and also print out some rally flyers to pass out along with 1 trash bag per vehicle intering Holeyland to explain how inportant it is to cleanup after themselves this is only an idea but 1 idea may make the difference and maybe get an fwc officer to sit with us for a while and get the media to show up let me know Willing and able I will get the trash bags and print flyers on notice

I honestly believe this is the approach that needs to be made.  It's EDUCATION.  I know the members of this forum are not the ones who are messing it up.  We have got to try to educate people out there & that's going to happen by educating them while they're out there.  NOT everyone is logging onto a forum & disregarding the issues.  We need to reach the "LOCAL" crowd out there!!!

Excellent suggestion.............hopefully we'll get participation on the garbage bag side of the idea.

What if they/we posted a sign reminding of the area's rules/laws???   Helpful??

Cecil Webb has NEVER allowed ATV's.  Funny how they DON'T have a problem.

I guess this is where the idea of PROHIBITING them originated.

Again, I will reiterate.  I hunt & have been doing so for decades with Atc's/ATV's.  I do not recall any issues anywhere near what ATVer's have brought on.
Literally, there is a quota hunt for Cecil Webb that takes place in the Fall.(No ATV's allowed)  There used to be 500 people there for the weekend.  When the campground emptied out on Sunday afternoon/night there was minimal garbage if any!!  What's up with that?????

Off Rode:

Your comments about the buggy folks doing a better job of cleaning up and respecting the land is right on point. I hesitated to write it in my last posts, but I will go ahead and do it now.

When speaking to the park rangers and the FWC guys, as well as with several camp owners in the Big Cypress, the one an only common thread with problems is ATV's.  Why? Well, there are severa theories.

First, many of the idiots causing problems are people that don't actually own the ATV they are riding. I dare say a great deal of the ATV's riding Holeylands on any given weekend are stolen. You know the type, little gansta' wanna be's riding some sort of sport bike with bald tires from miles of street use. These people don't care for one minute about the state of the land they are on.

Second, anyone with even minimal credit can buy and ATV. Anyone can get one. They'll finance you for hardly any interest and over numerous years. Make things affordable to the masses and you get trouble every time. Not to sound elitist, but it is the sad truth.

Finally, buggies are usually built while ATV's are normally purchased. A guy that builds his buggy from scratch has a different attitude than the moron's causing trouble on the ATV's. The sad part is that you have folks that own both or that own only and ATV that have enormous respect and appreciation for the place they ride, yet are most negatively impacted by the actions of the morons. Cecil Webb is a shinig example. Off Rode is right, they have next to no problems whatsoever.

Whether we like it or not, we truly are our own worst enemy. Ocala is another example. The new trail system that nobody seems to like was never dreamed of until you had the massive influx of AYV riders. Up until 6-7 years ago, the ATV's were not in force in Ocala. It was primarily Jeeps, trucks and the occasional motorcyle with a sprinkling of ATV's thrown in. During this time period ORV enforcement wasn't really an issue. What changed? ..... Us.

I'm not sure what the answer is. However, you can bet the state and feds know what the answer is.........Ban the ATV's. Sure seems to work everywhere else they do it. I hate to see it come to this.

Anoriginal,
     I agree with you 100% !!  Lets face you can get an ATV cheap compared to boats,buggies,trucks,etc.  What I mean by that is most joe smoe scum bags can afford to buy a cheap ATV to tear it up and have fun.  They wouldn't do that if they spent all there time working to save up and buy one (like all the awesome bikes I see on here).  Anyway I would say everyone on this forum MAY produce 1% of the ATV riders out there having a good time, and I guarantee you this 1% is not the problem!  Lets face it most people out there riding don't give a damn.  There in itself lies the problem.  I wish I knew a solution,  I think education is probably the best answer we got so far.  I have had problems in the past trying to get to clean ups and such but I am good to go now.(mainly broke parts or money LOL) Let me know what I can do to help!!

         Swamper

I agree with Anoriginal's theory.  I was speaking from personal experience & I have been to many of the WMA's from Central to South FL, from ones that allowed Atv's to never had allowed them & I can honestly say a blind man could see the difference now the ATV crowd has shown it's presence........... :tsktsk.gif

Spoke with Jason Huckabee from FWC, they will be having a meeting Monday (not public) regarding new restrictions at Holey Land & Rotenberger.  He will call me late Monday with an update.  Things are about to change out there !   If you wish to speak to Jason contact FWC at 561-625-5122 please becareful and be wise with what you say.

D you think if I plan this they can provide us with some help to stand there & we should (must) get media on it let me know I am down with it

I guess we will wait with hope.  I HOPE they don't shut it down completely.

Thrumud, thanks for the involvement.  Keep us posted.

well any word?????

i was out there the weekend thay done the cleanup and this weekend i was truley ashamed of the trash looks like a lot of it came from people parting out there noticed a lot of beer bottles around the camp fires i think that if there is not some major regulations and fwc precince that it will be shut down to much sh*t going on out there i think drinking ban atv insp fwc patrol  would be a good start i love riding out there i just hope that something is done before it is to late i think the only way to save it is thru regulation you know there are some people that dont give a damm and will have to be forced to change it is sad ttat we have to do that to our selfs

man,i'll tell you what...the trash is terrible,maybe some trash dumpsters?i think fwc should make it mandatory for all atv's,dirt bikes and whatever to have a land use sticker,charge like $50.00 a year per vehicle..and before you can purchase this sticker you must attend some kind of class...if caught without permit $250.00 fine,would get someones attention...as far as banshees,and sport bikes without off-road tires,they should be banned from holeyland area,,if they can't go in the mud whats the use,levy roads are for travelling down at a 35mph speed not drag racing and dusting everyone in there path..if caught speeding,fine should be $250.00,if caught littering fine should be $500.00,just like it is on major highways...the seminole indians,or micosukee ,whomever built a track out there off the alley for sport bikes,,they should go there,,,,you don't see us guys with our big utes riding on the sport bike track do you....each area is designed for specific riders,and holeyland area is not a speedway or trash dump......get it together people

How did I know that banshees would come into the SHOULD BE BANNED topic.

Last time i checked all sport atvs come w/ off road tires??? Last time i checked Holylands was not all mud, plenty of riding off the levy for sport atvs......right or wrong. I guess sport atvs are the best of both worlds. :P

you cant blame all the trash on the sport bikes cause the sport bikes arent the ones carring coolers into the trails. it's just a bunch of idiots throwing the trash all over.

It is impossible to pin the problem on any one bike style. We need to all stick together on this one. Lets not start bickering already.

Guys, I left a message 3/1 no reply yet. Will call tomorrow.

Yea If anything Utilitys should be banned because I ALWAYS see 4x4s with coolers.

i am 1 with ute but if you see me take something out of the cooler and not put it back u call me on it as for the discussion I am pretty sure the idiots that do it dont read these post my.02 let get back on track D thanks for the update let me know if I can help with anything

I guess BaNshee doesn't drink anything the whole time he rides!!  COME ON You mean to tell me if you ride a sport bike you don't drink out of coolers.  Coolers stay at camp or truck?  SOOO its OK to litter there not on the trail?  To me it makes NO difference whats so ever what you drive!!! I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE AND I WILL SAY IT AGIAN NO ONE ON THIS FORUM IS AT FAULT!!  I am sure the implied sports bike reference before was about something someone specifically saw out there NOT ALL SPORTS BIKES.

Well I ride with a camelbak and so does mostly everyone I ride with.When We were out in the hump on sunday we cleaned up all the Beer bottles/Chickengrill plates and Cups we found and the people parked next to us did so to.Oh yeah and we were ALL on Banshees.SO its not only the banshees screwing it up for us.Ive never even been to holy lands and probably never will because I love hauling ass down levys and dirt roads and so does everyone I ride with.

Thanks again, Thrumud. :ThumbsUp.gif

LITTERING is only one of the problems.  Don't start the fingerpointing it is NOT constructive. :no  Holeyland is still currently OPEN for riding, :Clap.gif practice what we preach & hopefully it will set the example. :T

Jason from the FWC has reported our conversation and concerns to his supervisor and will call me back soon.  That's all I have for now, let's wait and see what they have to say.

Dennis

Basically what it comes down to is they need to put baby sitters out there. Sure it's not only one type of ATV but the times I've been out there I didn't see any UTEs doing doughnuts in the parking lot spraying all of the vehciles with rocks or UTEs doing wheelies over the bridge or UTEs drag racing down the levy and nearly running over people. Not saying there aren't any idiot UTE owners but from what I witnessed it was mostly all sport quads (not just banshees ;) )The trash was the worst in the parking lot area which comes from everyone...probably not people from this site since most of us know how precious riding spots are. Thing is NOTHING is going to change this because until someone is personally held responsible for littering, damaging vehicles in the parking lot or endangering people in the parking lot or levy then nothing will change short of shutting the place down. What incentive do the offenders have to stop? Nothing. As long as they get away with it they will continue to do it.

Bill

I seriously think we need to have an entrance fee.That will take away 3/4 of the idiots that dont really care about riding.

Remember, this is a WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AREA.  That brings in regulation from the county & state levels.  There are some WMA's that have a daily user fee but it is not usually an astronomical amount(a few dollars) & alot of times on the honor system.  I don't think that would be a deterant for the abusers of this area since it is one of the few remaining places.  Big Cypress has issues of it's own & it has National Park status with Rangers.  They can't eliminate it there so I would think enforcement in Holeyland would be more difficult to accomplish.  You will open another can of worms when you try to institute an "entrance fee" when it comes to the hunting community.  I say that because they will point the finger of blame at "recreational riders" for all of the issues we are discussing.  I still believe that it boils down to the users themselves.  Think about it, if noone littered, got injured, broke the existing laws out there, etc.........The county & state WOULDN'T have anything to scrutinize & therefore wouldn't have any reason to intervene.  It happens all the time when people congregate in numbers & things get out of hand.  Example, Columbus Day Regatta & Bartenders week in the Keys @ the sandbar.  Just 2 examples & they already have law enforcement shows about regulating the crowd & crimes.  It seems that it is unavoidable.  I just hope they don't have a "COPS" episode on Holeyland anytime soon ???

i think there is a few main issues that can be worked out fairly easy. 1st is the trash. FWC or someone needs to get trash cans/dumpsters out there and dumped on a regular basis. when you go to the beach there are t-cans, when you go to a park there a t-cans. Why not out there? 2nd rider safety. The flags are a great idea to be seen. i think they need to enforce a helmet law also regardless of what type of atv you ride. 3rd would be speed and reckless riding in parking areas. Just like seminole , croom etc. You can't go over like 5 mph in those areas and you sure can't be doing any wheelies there. last but not least , they should mandate every atv be registered/title. This you deter some theft as well as generate money to fund atv riding in florida. 4th as far as alcohol I think they should start by prohibiting glass containers. just my .02 cents.

almost sounds like an eagle scout project for me, does any one have good contacts with someone with FWC or know any numbers so i can contact them about maybe setting up permant trashcans for an eagl project, i think that would be a great personal project for me

Guys, I've called over 6 times left 4 messages and no one has called me back.  Also Rick has sent several e-mails and no replies.  I will post the number and maybe someone will have better luck.

I have a banshee, its my fault blame it on me, I knew I should have gotten one of those big bulky slow 4 choke utilitys that dont spit trash out the tail pipe

calm down, dont need to set anybody off with a smart @ss comment like that, almost everyone litters wether they know it or not, i also ride a banshee but i have a polaris 700 too, instead of dropping trash, bring a bag and pick it up!

I didnt mean it as a smartass comment, let me rephrase it, keep the trash in the truck

that sounds better ;)

I was out there yesterday & it didn't look nearly as bad as the time prior. ;D  There were a zillion people so I don't know if all of the vehicles hid the trash.  It was a nice change.  I guess going out there today would show what the weekend had produced.

***More negative publicity in the form of injured riders requiring Trauma Hawk, BSO, AMR, & Fire Rescue to respond out there.

that sucks that someone got hurt out there, i hate how they blame the atv as apposed to the untrained rider or stupidity of the rider who gets hurt, if it's the riders fault, they should have the rider tell that as apposed to the news saying that the atv itself was the cause of the crash

I was there on Sunday, what time did this happen? 

You know what, I rode there today and picked up 35lb of trash.

Check out my where to ride thread.

about 4 - 5 pm.  I don't think you could miss the circling helicopter(s)  Trauma Hawk & probably News

We tried this a little more than a year ago. As told to us by waste management and FWC, There is a liability issue of many different angles. Kids playing in it, on it, or around it. Who monitors that? Burning it. For some strange reason people like burning dumpsters or people put toxic items that create and or cause a fire. Crash liability. Somebody is going to run into it, ORV, quad, pick up, Volvo, bicycle will some how someway run into it. Then here is the kicker. Somebody got hurt, well at that point who assumes liability?  Who picks up the cost? Who was negligent? We researched all of this stuff and tried to get permanent dumpsters. This was all about 1-2 years ago. Maybe people change, new management, new thinking may allow change, but as described to us there was just to much liability.

In addition to that there was an issue obtaining dumpsters for a clean-up ride hosted around the same period 2 years ago, waste management wanted no part of it, they where in fear of liability for the things described above.

Also tires, batteries, building materials and various other debris will somehow end up in that dumpster. Waste management will not empty the dumpster. So then who dumpster dives and recovers the contra banded debris? Then what do you do with all of that contra banded debris?

Their take is, you brought it. You used it; you take it home with you.