ATV Florida Forum

  Hi all, just an update.

  The Byway meeting for Jan. is scheduled for the 11th at the Pioneer Settlement, if todays storms didn't destroy it.....

  The public meetings are scheduled for Jan. 18th at Silver Springs. The new url for the Byway is: Scenic Byway (http://www.flbbb.org)

  Since I missed Dec. meeting, I will be reading the minutes, but I do know that ONFA wasn't there to deny their involvement with the Scenic Byway. Now, this wouldn't be an issue, if the president of ONFA wasn't proclaiming that they were not going to be involved with the Byway publically. I think the good folks here deserve a response to this issue and have the right to know if this is going to be taken care of at the Jan. meeting, or if the president spoke out-of-turn.

  This issue has been either ignored or dodged by said president. Since the president was very adamant about not being involved with the Byway, it shouldn't be such a problem to see this resolved. I hope he will respond to my query here and be willing to share with us exactly what is going on with this issue.

  Thank you.

less than 5 days ago I requested that the board members of ONFA be polled as to our official position regarding the byway, these 5 days have been covering the last few days before Christmas when everyone has things to do.

I have given my answer to the board president already, but I'm not sure everyone has had the chance to respond yet.

None of the board members are being paid anything for their time/effort being put into the organization(this would include my 4.5 hours of driving to and from a board meeting).

Short story even shorter,,,give us time to come up with an answer from everyone.

Id@

good answer

  I thank you for the response. It is sad that this wasn't covered earlier in the month when I posted that the president attend the Dec. 7th meeting to state the official position of ONFA.

  I know this sounds snippy, but come on guys...it shouldn't take a post like this to get something going if ya'll are on the side of ATVs.....I know my post was seen since there was a response by the president of ONFA on a different part of the same post.

   Since the poll was put out before the end of Dec. I am sure that ONFA will be able to be represented at the Jan. 11th meeting, right?

  Just FYI, again if the Board is serious about being there for the ATV crowd, it is vitally important to make sure the Byway folks know where you stand, before they finalize the Corridor Management Plan in preperation for submission.

Lisa,

I know that you feel that it very important, in your mind, that ONFA takes a position on the Black Bear Byway.  I have reviewed the sr40.com website and their documents and have discussed this group with our Board.  The mention of ONFA by this group has to do with ONFA being a resource that possibly could help them in the future.  It is nice that some other organization realizes that we are also involved in the forest.  We are however, a new organization, and at the present time have our hands quite full trying to get the Trail Ranger program and the education program to certify under 16 riders going.  All they seem to have asked of our group is that we be mutually supportive of programs of common interest.  I see  nothing wrong with this. 

While you believe we need to take a stand, I disagree.  I am continually informed of the actions of their organization, and do not feel that what they are attempting to do will endanger the trail system.

Blinded by the light....

  Now, this is you, as president, taking a stand. Technically, if you want to squirm out of it, you can say you were speaking of yourself staying out of it; however, you started the second quote by saying; "I do not see how you can speak of the Black Bear Corridor and say that ONFA is part of it."

   Now you are speaking like a politician, side-stepping the issue. ONFA is mentioned as a partner in this, while I tried to get them to include Fl4WDA in mentioning partners too. Interesting that they declined to add Fl4WDA, yet would include ONFA.....their intent is for you to be more than just a mere mention, but to actually be part of it.

  You as president will be part of this byway through ONFA. Since you have taken such a hard stand against it publically, what will you do when ONFA is a part of the byway???

  Oh, and if ONFA has taken grant monies from the Forestry Service, ONFA is no longer an entity onto itself, but a branch of Forestry. That will confirm what I have been saying, that ONFA will be a partner in this corridor; not just a mention.

   I realize I am being tough on Grizz. I am playing against the top notch folks in this state on this byway issue. It isn't going to get won coddling someone who may or may not be on my side. From what Grizz says, he doesn't like the byway, but he needs to understand, as do many of you, that those who are pushing for this byway are pushing the buttons behind-the-scenes in ONFA as well.

   They do not have yours or my, best interests at heart. The sooner Grizz, and others, realize that, the better! Grizz, I know I am being tougher on you than I would had this been the first year that they had been working on this byway. This byway is very, very close to becoming national, within the year 2007! Yes, that is how close it is! It is not the time to play nicey, nicey or hold someone's hand as they learn the true agenda of people they think are on their side.

  Others have been there, they have fought for years, been stabbed in the back time, and time again; only to find that now it is too late to get back to what they had. I will not let that happen. I will go down swinging for all I am worth; and hopefully take some of the enemy down with me.

  Stay strong Grizz. I don't know you, but I sure hope you are on our side. When you decide what side you are on, I will be there, either for you (as strong as I am against my enemy) or against you. I hope you are on my side.  :)

Hi Everyone:

I am not really new to the forum, but new to replying on here. I am not a resident of Florida, but do have parents and friends in Ocala, and ride the Ocala National Forest maybe twice a year, when vacation time allows it.

I have been following the discussion and it sounds like the ONFA doesn't want to be part of this so called Black Bear Corridor, (wildlaw project), but yet taken from ONFA website:

         The Ocala National Forest Association is a non-profit corporation committed to     the success of the Ocala National Forest as it works to fulfill its mission. The Association will complement and add to the skills and resources of the Forest, involve other partners - individuals, community groups, corporations, foundations, other government agencies, and non-profits - and foster citizen involvement in Forest planning and decision making.

By the above statement if the ONFA is committed to the success of the Ocala National Forest and will involve partners etc.. and forster citizen involvement in Forest Planning and decision making, I have to ask isn't that the Black Bear Corridor. Wouldn't you want to be part of this group (Other government agencies), this is going to involve Forest Planning and decision making. Looking at the documentation and looking at the map, it is going through the middle of the forest. But yet you don't want to take part in it, then your mission statement is not true.

Your three primary goals:

 Attract new resources of all kinds to the Forest. (Black Bear Corridor) Isn't that a new resource.

Encourage and promote broad based investment in the Forest as a way of supporting local community development and obtaining the involvement of members of these communities to determine their own destinies. Won't the black bear corridor support local community development? Isn't this a way to bring business and individuals together to enhance the community and let them know what the forest is all about?

I have read some of the documentation on this subject matter, and have from personal experiences seen what has happened to trails in other states, it is not a good site.

No where on the front page of the website do you state anything about OHV trails, or any OHV at all.

The entire program is made up of volunteers whose only purpose is to preserve the forest for the enjoyment of visitors who come to visit its unique environment. Your only purpose is to preseve the forest, that sounds like your against OHV's. Is that why the ONFA doesn't want to get involved.

This is a confusing issue for sure, but what seems to be more confusing is the above statements about the ONFA.

  You are right johnb; why wouldn't the ONFA want to be a part of this? I am confused about Grizz, he says he is for keeping trails open, yet refuses to acknowledge Mr. Lint's past insisting that now Mr. Lint has become a compeletly different man than the one who closed things down in Louisiana.

  Here is some more information on Scenic Byways for those who think they sound great! Munso Tatum of the CAG has been asking me to provide real folks who have been affected by Scenic Byways, this is as good a place as any to start bringing my information out! Especially since I know the Byway folks are either watching themselves, or have folks watching for them (paid or niave saps.)

 Scenic Byways Innocent Sounding Land Management (http://prfamerica.org/ScenicBywaysInnocentSounding.html)

  The above was written by a reporter who found out exactly what Scenic Byways are all about. The folks who live in the Adirondacks have been fighting the byway since it was put in.

  This woman Joyce Morrison (http://www.newswithviews.com/Morrison/joyceA.htm) has been working with me to help me learn how to stop the byway. She worked with folks in her county to successfully dedesignate a Scenic Byway in her county.

  There are several articles on this site that show you how bad Scenic Byways are for property owners and those who love to enjoy the forests and parks [Property Rights Foundation of America (http://prfamerica.org/)

  The last site I gave you has a few articles on how the Scenic Byway was used to close down areas of the Adirondacks to outdoors lovers, including motorized access users, hikers, birdwatchers, etc.

   Now, I have been told, officially by the consultant for the byway, that the biggest reason to have a Scenic Byway was for grant monies. Now, just what projects do they need grant monies for? They haven't said yet. Why don't you come to the public meeting and ask them? I would love to hear what they say about their little projects in public. I do know that Mrs. Duever (a CAG member who has been promoting The Wildlands Project (http://http:www.twp.org) ) has suggested strongly that we have "eco-passages" across sr40 so that plants, amphibians and reptiles can cross sr40 without fear of getting run over by vehicles.

   That kind of radicalism sure sounds like someone we want helping plan our trails, right? Oh, and she was also technical advisor on; "Out of Control" an article written by the Defenders of Wildlife to convince folks that you, the ATVers are destroying the forest and should be banned.

   Back to the Corridor. Just look closer to home, the Tamiami Trail. County Commissioners have been overlooked in deciding what things can/should be done in their county. The NPS is using the corridor as an excuse to do radical things to the corridor; such as expanding the "viewshed" and destroying habitat for deer and other hunted animals effectively closing hunting areas.

  Just drive the Tamiami Trail and see how many OHV/ORV trails you see from the roadway. Trails cutting through the NPS or the ONF aren't "scenic". Just remember, the classification of this Byway is to be "scenic" not recreational, so what do you think their main focus is going to be?

  The CME has used the corridor to build many "panther underpasses" at a cost of $4 million each. What does that mean for ONF? Well, the animal underpasses don't work unless you fence them off for many miles on each side....could that mean fencing off the ONF? Think of the amount of work and the construction along sr40 and how that will effect recreation in at least Big Scrub if you get the feds building animal underpasses. Oh, and ONFA suggested that we use the underpasses for OHVs too; do you really think the enviros are going to allow that? Be realistic please.....they aren't going to allow any human activity around any underpass let alone allow us to use them.

   Yes, the Byway uses many words to "Sound Innocent" as the Susan Allen suggests. (BTW, I have permission from each of the groups and people to use quotes from them and to post links to their site.) It is just another way to grab lands for The Wildlands Project and for the Feds to get more control over roads and lands they can't otherwise touch.

  Here is a direct article written by Carol Lagrasse off of the PRFAInc. site. Now, if folks are having trouble with this stuff in other states, do you really think it is going to just go away in ours?

   ....Access Closed (http://prfamerica.org/2006/LandAcquired-ButWait.html)

I have done some research and I have pulled up the last meeting minutes, notice the USFS people in attendance, people on the board.

Minutes Florida Black Bear Scenic Byway CAG Meeting
10:00 AM, December 7th, 2006
Marion County Library, Ocala, Florida

In attendance: Rick Lint, Carl Petrick, Monso Tatum, Glenn Burns, Cathy Lowenstein, Laureen Kornel, Garry Balogh, Joan Carter, Jessi Smith, Guy Marwick, August Mazyck, Sandra Friend, Cindy Marihugh, Criss Specht, Lucy Tobias

1.  Introductions   Rick Lint introduced Carl Petrick, Ecosystems Staff Officer representing USFS Forest Supervisor. All others present introduced themselves.

Above taken directly from the December meeting.

Below taken from Scenic byways innocent sounding land management.

These byways require something called a “Corridor Management Plan.” The federal ISTEA law set up a 17-member “Scenic Byway Advisory Committee” to “develop standards for design review” in these corridor plans. This Advisory Committee consists of federal agencies, including the National Park Service and U.S. Forest Service, plus appointees from various interests, including environmental, recreational and historic organizations. The only overt commercial interest represented is the “outdoor advertising industry.” I have the handbooks produced for the “Corridor Management Planning” purposes, telling how to organize Byway advocates and how to keep control of the public information process. Listed as contributors to these manuals are organizations like Scenic America and National Trust for Historic Preservation.

In the preliminary thesis to the state CAG used the term "viewshed" , viewshed can mean anything within 5 miles or greater on either side of the corridor will be protected.

I think Mr. Thompson you missed the point.

 Right on johnb!

Hey ya'll this lady is definately confused -- by ya'll ONFA not taking a stand, ya'll ONFA is saying it will not protect the trails?? Then that leaves this lady to believe ya'll ONFA doesn't care about the trails?? What does ya'll care about.

My main worry in regards to the byway is private property rights.  I worry that once they have their foot in the door and have the backing of an organization like the USFS that they will use it to take over land that was formally privately owned or tell the property owners around the area what they can/can't do with their own property.

I do see a lot of good that they "plan" to do, but some things in their goals scare me.

Id@

Your right

I have to take time to say a little bit about this subject. First let me start off by saying that I was one of the first OHV volunteers in the ONF, right by my side through all the training was Grizzlybear. I have known this man for some time know. Grizzlybear has given more of his personal time to this sport than any of you can imagine. His goal is to keep as many trails open as possible. As for the grant money, mainly it is to be used to educate riders. The grant does not come from the forest service but from the T.Mark Schmidt fund. Lisa until you meet this man and talk to him face to face and get all your facts in line, stop making personal attacks on him. The attacks make you look stupid and bring down the sport as a whole.

Could that be that you might know this man --- I have been friends with him for sometime (friends), best pals, let's defend him. Usually one needs to be defended if they are in war, or hiding something, and many other numerous reasons.

Viper,That's just wrong.

I work for Collier County and some have seem me represent our sport locally.
That being said: You can't bully Forestry, WMA, or SFWMA. WE (atv owners) need to work with them and remind them of our issues. I might be wrong but this is what I believe ONFA is trying to do. Regardless of your opinion of ONFA they are by no means against you.
 
Lisa, The byway thing worries me too. The government and other large interest groups have many lawyers helping them write document that are hard to decipher and always leave them “a way out”.
All who can need to attend the Jan. meeting. I will try to be there.



 

Mars - where has working with them got you. Do you have a place to ride down there? It is my understanding from previous threads there is going to be a huge rally down there, would you call that working with them?

No one has said the ONFA is against anyone. It is obvious that everyone thinks the ONFA and grizzly needs to be defended, no one has accused them of anything. I see this as information to keep the public informed.

It won't make a difference when the ONF gets closed, due to the corridor.

  My attempts to get Grizz and others to see that they will not be able to keep ONFA from being a partner in the corridor, and by proxy themselves a partner to it is being taken as attacks. That is interesting. I have used Grizz's own statements to show where he has said he doesn't want to be a part of this corridor, and told him that ONFA will be.

  I have apologized once for being strong, I will only apologize once. Grizz may be a "nice guy" however, I am at odds with several folks I know as "nice folks". My husband was one of them. He lives with me, and because I am able to bring my point-of-view to each and every discussion we have about this very topic, he has come to understand (although he personally doesn't like it) that my tactics are the only options we have now. The agencies, environmental groups, etc. have left us no choice.

  Mars, I suggest you talk with the Collier County Commissioners and see where working "with" SFWMD and WMA has gotten them; right into the battle they are having down there right now. W;/hy? Because these agencies do not play by the rules. They play by their own agenda and the devil-may-care where the chips fall. That is why you don't have anywhere to ride down there.  :banghead.gif

  I know Rick Varela has been working hard to get trails opened back up down there. He has come closer than anyone else has and he has not done it by being "nice" to the WMD agencies! Where is Rick? He needs to tell these guys himself....Rick?!?

Now, anyone showing up at the public meeting, will learn how the Florida Growth Management Act of 1985 (FGMA) will force the County Commissioners, through their own Comprehensive Growth Plan (CGP) to abide by the Comprehensive Management Plan (CMP).

  I asked, specifically, if the FGMA would force the couties, at least as far as the corridor was concerned, to accept the laws of other counties. I also put the question into context by reading the paragraph from the State Manual on Scenic Highways. The consultant, Mr. Glen Burns was the only one to answer me at first, and  he told me that the FGMA is there to "make" the counties talk with each other; he added that they don't do that very well.

  Not happy with this answer, and knowing there was much more to it than that, I looked up the FGMA myself and found the answer to my questions. Folks, make no mistake, this Act does much more than require the counties to "talk" to each other. There is mention of sactions, monies that can be withheld from the counties for road and county projects, etc. This Act does much more than I was lead to believe.
 
   I will be bringing this information to the public meeting. I hope to see some of you there.

Lord help us all. This is getting to be too much. I need to go to law school to understand you Lisa. I'm so sick of this crap that I'm ready to sell my atv's and buy a pair of binoculars and hiking boots to see the forest. This is getting rather sickening. Get a damned meeting for pete's sake and hash this out.

  Play Vonage theme song here:

  Um stactester, there is a meeting planned....it will be January 18th in Silver Springs. I would give you the link, but you don't seem like you are eager to save your ATV trails......or your rights....

I want to jump in on this and share my experiences on fighting the "system". Let me start by saying that I have a lot of respect for Terry. I have never met him in person, but i thank him for all the work he has done in trying to work to keep places open.I also have a lot of respect for Lisa. Even though she's not an ATV'r, she stands for what what I stand, and that's a deep belief in keeping "PUBLIC AREAS PUBLIC".I guess there are areas where you may actually work and be part of the "process" in the decision making,however from my own personal experience, you cannot work with these agencies, they constantly work against you, use words like "compatible,sustainable,manageable," and so on. The only reason we have made some progress, and now after a year of fighting these a$$holes, is because we have caught them in just about every lie. Lee county is trying to get out from under the SFWMD basin,Collier county is threatening to sue,  and now it's when they want "our help"??SCREW THEM.If you were able to do the research that I have done, you will see how everyone is against us, not everywhere, but as a majority. Think about this for a minute, the state collects money from us to set aside riding areas, the state owns more than 5,000,000 acres, and not one acre is available to ride on. When we meet for our state wide rally, i hope to have sometime to speak and  I will share with you some of the things I know. For example, US fish and Wildlife is the agency that is keeping us out of the Picayune, not the Department of forestry or Florida game and fish. We are being kept out because we could potentially "disturb" the wildlife. US fish and wildlife is issuing a building permit for an 8,000 acre community that back right in to the Florida Panther Preserve(Big Cypress), where according to the EIR report is where the majority of panther activity happens.This is a bunch of CRAP, and we will only get some attention when we scream and howler, unfortunately when we try to get some kind of protest together only handful reply.I suggest that we as a group or any entity decide to either backup or fight any proposal that they do their homework very well. I for one was for the "everglades Restoration" project and I have officials from the state and federal agencies giving us reassurances in a public forum that we would continue to be able to ride out ATV and Swamp buggies, I even showed the video to the Collier county commissioners and the county manager and luckily they have decided to pursue this,but if they would have decided not to pursue it, we would have been SOL.So please be very careful before you support something, because as we are painfully aware of, the Devil is in the details...Rick

You know what, Terry can be a good guy, the ONFA can be a good place, good guys and good places don't keep things open. The end result if the USFS wants to ONF closed, Terry ain't going to stop it. As far as keeping things open, the USFS is keeping it open.

Hate to argue with you Rick, but every one is entitled to opinions.

  ONFA is not necessarily the enemy, Terry is not necessarily the bad guy; however, when ONFA and Terry don't take a stand, how do you tell them from the bad guys? Where is the line drawn?

  I started this thread with the intent to get that line drawn and people to take a stand. Terry took a stand, my question to him, and the rest of you is the same; When ONFA is made a partner of the corridor (and it will be because the Board has a say on that), are Terry and the rest of you going to stay with ONFA despite your claim that you are against the corridor?

  Also, is the poll the Board must take going to be up in time for the general meeting or even the public meeting? Time is ticking away.....

  One last remark I want to make; Why isn't the Board of ONFA put up on their site? I couldn't find it....

Lisa:

The bold in your comments, maybe New Years Eve got to me, but I am a little slow this morning, can you clarify what board.

Joan
Stewards of the Land

she means the board members of ONFA, I am one, Terry is the president of the board.

Id@

 Thanks Id@.

  Hey Id@, since you are an ONFA Board member, can you tell us who the other Board members are?

I also feel the agencies have too much power.
Down here (Naples) the main issue is the restoration plan in the south blocks. SFWM would like to just give up 600 acres right there and be done with it. They cannot. If they did they would have to stop the current project (right or wrong) and do another bugs and bunny count. Lake Trafford is the best they can offer and it will not be ready for at least one more year. There are many issues I would not post because I fell it would only hurt efforts to keep pubilc lands open.

 It’s a big bad onion and the more you dig in the more it stings.

Do you think the ONF (USFS) is any different. The more I dig into this the more it stings. Someone told me that it is not what the (USFS ONF) wants, it is that they have to do it. Meaning, they don't want the trail system, they have to do it, manadory by washington. If they could close it down, I really believe they would.

Look at the facts - the black bear corridor, couldn't that be a way to close the trails and the ONF USFS washes their hands, we didn't close it. Think about this Rick Lint, and 2 other USFS officals are on the board, along with 2 environmentalists, and Office of Greenways and Trails, that should tell you something right there.

In the preliminary to the state they used a term called "viewshed" which means -
A viewshed is an area of land, water, and other environmental elements that is visible from a fixed vantage point. The term is used widely in such areas as urban planning, archaeology, and military science. In urban planning, for example, viewsheds tend to be areas of particular scenic or historic value that are deemed worthy of preservation against development or other change. The preservation of viewsheds is a goal in the designation of open space areas, green belts, and community separators.

Meaning of Open Space native lands including wilderness, undeveloped parkland and relatively undisturbed natural environment.

None of this points to OHV Trails. I have taken a map of the ONF and calculated 5 mile viewshed, from the scenic byways, that incorporates all the ONF.

Trail maintance - barely being done, if at all. I have been on the trails and in places there are trees down, puddles where people have gone around them, again off the trails. Whoops no matter where you go. But yet quote from the ONFA the ONF is a world class trail system. Something like that was said.

The ONFA is partners with the ONF, to provide substainable recreation for future generations, and to work with the forest system to help them with their goals. Can someone tell what is substainable recreation. Does that include OHV's nothing is mentioned about OHV's anywhere in the ONFA. On this site or the website.

I have looked at the facts, and everything including the ONFA points to not having OHV trails. The facts that I have stated and more.

I could go on but I think I have made my point.

I don't know everyone by name because I have been able to make it to only one meeting so far, I'm sure Terry can give you a list from the minutes.

Id@

  Id@, you don't know whom you are working with? Okay, I will take that at face value.

I didn't say that, I know everyone's face, but not names, I'm horrible at names.  I also know everyone's email address, but don't feel it appropriate to give out those without consent.

Id@

   Thanks again Ida_man. I would not ask for email addresses though. If I know whom a person is, I can find out enough contact information to get that on my own. ;)

  Okay folks, this is getting way out of hand. I am now being accused on other threads of trying to destroy the ONFA. That is not true. My first posts about ONFA and the Scenic Byway were talking about how the Forestry wants ONFA to be a partner with them in the Byway. The fact that ONFA is only one of a very select few groups that are named specifically in the Scenic Byway Corridor Management Plan(CMP) (and the fact that the Corridor Advocacy Group [CAG] resisted very strongly adding Fl4WDA in the same context) as an example group of whom should partner with the Corridor, should tell any reasonable person that something smells fishy.  ::)

   Then, when I said that Mr. Thompson needs to attend the Dec. 7th meeting of the Scenic Byway to make sure the CAG knows "officially" that ONFA does not want to partner with the Scenic Byway and should have such suggestions taken out of the the CMP, neither he, nor a representative of the ONFA showed up. When I insisted that this be looked into just days after the meeting, still nothing was said.

   Ida_Man finally decided to do what the President should have done, and that was take a poll to the ONFA to see if the rest of the board wanted to "officially" be part of the Byway many weeks after I brought the subject up. Now, there are two things wrong with that first sentence of this paragraph. The first is we were told ONFA does not have anything to do with the Byway; what is wrong with that is that Mr. Thompson does not have the authority to speak for the organization without the majority consent of the Board. Two, the poll wasn't set till only 5-days before Christmas; again, many weeks after the ONFA president knew something should have been done.

    Now, if Mr. Thompson is very new to all this and is not undestanding how things work, I will cut him a lot more slack than I have been. It is tough to step-up-to-the-plate and have people come down on you for things you trully didn't know. However, if he does know, he should be held more accountable. I am begining to believe Mr. Thompson doesn't understand how this stuff works and with that understanding and belief will apologize to him. All my words have been geared at someone who knows how these meetings go, knows what a president can and should say in public, and understands the true agenda of the folks he is working with.

    I believe Mr. Thompson is in for a rude awakening though. The folks he is working with, Forestry and Linda Duever, know exactly how to work things out. ONFA is not a government-run entity yet, although accepting any start-up grant monies from a Federal agency ties them into such an agency closer than being just a "partner". However, when the President or others must turn to the Forestry or anyone else for "help" in running their group, that opens that organization up to Federal influence and manipulation. ONFA needs to be run without the assistance of the Forestry or any other outside organization.

    If ya'll want to be a group that works to keep motorized public access open, I suggest you take a second and third look at the things Linda Duever suggests. Her agenda is to see The Wildlands Project (http://www.twp.org) (TWP) put into effect in the Ocala National Forest. I will not bore ya'll with any more proof of what TWP is really about, but will be glad to send links to anyone who asks and will be happy to discuss this issue IRL by phone or meeting.

    I have seen the suggestions Mrs. Duever has made in the CAG. I have researched some of the "catch phrases" she and Mr. Lint have suggested in the CMP. I will be making written suggestions that these statements be removed due to the legal issues these phrases hold motorized trails to, and believe me, they are not in our favor.

    Do I go overboard? Yep, I will readily and publically admit that and apologize for it. This is a long apology to Mr. Thompson for slights both intended and otherwise because of his lack of understanding on the environmental front. I too am still learning. I have no wish to attack any new person who is really trying to learn. I do not have patience for someone who should know better whether I or someone else warns them of the people they are working with and what they really stand for though.

    I will give it time, ya'll will see what I am saying about certain folks both on the ONFA board and in Forestry. Hopefully some people are taking me seriously, asking serious questions and will make sure those people are watched closely. Only then will we be able to keep trails open and garner respect for your chosen sport.

   Thank you.

  Id@_Man, how is your poll on the ONFA and staying in the Byway Corridor Management Plan (CMP) coming? The general meeting is tomorrow. Are ya'll going to have a rep there to get ONFA out of the CMP, or are ya'll going to stay in the Byway?


   

lisa,

refer to my post of Dec 28th, 2006 at 9:41am.  That is the result of the Board being polled.

Terry

 Thank you Terry. So, you are taking a non-stance on the issue?

  Okay folks, I have been wanting Terry to take a stand. I feel he has. While he says he personally doesn't like the Byway, he has no problem with the ONFA, a group he started and is president of, being connected with it.

   Now, not to pick at Ida_man, but Nate, how do you feel about ONFA being part of the Byway? Do you really feel that with ONFA mentioned as a group to be potentially partnered with the Byway and not Fl4WDA that ONFA won't be pressured to become a partner with the Byway? (remember, the Corridor Advocacy Group and more importantly Linda Duever of the ONFA board, didn't want Fl4WDA mentioned as a potential parterner or potential group to be associated with the Byway) There could be a confict-of-interest there....

   It is interesting that Terry doesn't like the Byway, and neither does Ida_Man, yet the ONFA has decided to keep their name in the Corridor Management Plan (CMP). So, who is really running ONFA? There are two against the Byway, unless Mr. Thompson changed his mind, and one for it for sure. Doesn't the other person who is an avid OHVer on the BoD stand against the Byway personally too?

  Terry would never let someone like Linda Duever persuade him that the Corridor Management Entity (CME) won't work to close OHV trails; especially since he knew Linda Duever was technical advisor to the Out of Control (http://www.defenders.org/habitat/florvs/) article right? Right...... This doesn't make sense Mr. Thompson. Why would you personally be against something (the Byway) then let a group you not only started, but are president of (ONFA) stay connected with that very thing you are personally against (the Byway)???? 

   When ONFA becomes a partner with the Byway, Ida_Man, is that when you will pull out? You have to look at this long and hard Ida_Man. Do you really want to be associated with what is going on? Don't fixate on being pissed at me, open your mind and think about this....You obviously know a little about what Byways can do (I have given you the links to follow) to businesses and private citizens and their rights. Do you really think they will not touch the trails? Why would they want to take away private citizen's rights, tell businesses how they can advertise and what their property and buildings look like, curb development, force counties to abide by the CME's CMP, and then not stop the "carnage" of the Forest by folks they feel are just as bad, if not worse, than developers? (Keep in mind the Forest is the reason the Byway is being put in place.)

  Just think about it.....

   ar963, what I am telling you is no conspiracy theory. I have given you proof of what Mr. Lint and Ms. Duever are up to. Theories don't have facts to back them up, that is why they are theories. (Def. #7 of dictionary.com's definition of theory= conjecture or guess.)

   You are right, we have to stand together, but there is another saying; with friends like (insert name here...) who needs enemies? (I know, I know, some of you inserted my name. :P)

  I have given facts of what Mr. Lint has done in the past. Given you facts of how Byways were used as tools to close access in other states, and facts of Ms. Duever's position on ORV/OHVs. I have given facts of what Byways have been used to do, people you can contact yourself to talk to if you doubt what they said to me. I will be happy to supply email addresses to those interested and perhaps phone numbers if the people give their permission for me to hand out, although once you contact them  by email, you can get their phone numbers yourself.

  ar963, I don't want anyone to take what I say as fact. I encourage everyone to find out the answers on their own. I just help you by doing the research and supplying the links. Read, find out for yourself.

   As far as keeping your enemies closer, if I did that, I would never talk to my friends. I would not want my enemies closer than my friends. My friends know my weaknesses, my hopes, my dreams. I don't want my enemies to know those things.....that doesn't seem logical does it?

I do not usually post, but do visit the forums daily.  I am so tired of reading all this conspiracy theory that I feel I need to say my piece.  First of all I think it is great to have Linda on the ONFA board.  Have you ever heard the saying "keep your friends close but your ..........closer".  Second, the Forest Service will do with the forest as they please, enjoy it while you can.  There are many examples where the Feds have closed down areas (ex. Big Cypress & Dry Tortugas) even after lengthy public comment periods.  The truth is that us 4wheelers aren't viewed very positively by most people making us very easy targets.  I am not trying to be negative just stating my opinion.

Dedicated people working together are the only way we will preserve riding areas.

what do I think? I think that after the last few days of dealing with my ex-wife that I need not respond to you before I end up having to ban myself from the forums for saying something that little kids should not read.

but who cares, I'll go for it.

I don't know what the law says has to be revealed about board meetings of non-profit organizations, so I will keep quiet of what was said/done in the meetings unless Terry decides it is to be public knowledge.  I also want my fellow board members to know that they need not "watch their tongues" when around me because I would rather have a free and open discussion while there so we can all throw off the bravado and puffed-up feathers and speak as we wish to to get things done.  There was a frank discussion of your rantings/points at the last meeting that was brought up by me because I thought you had some valid concerns.

I'll tell you that in the eyes of many, you are hurting your cause more than you are helping it.  I hate to sound like a politician here but I will for the next sentence or so.  You seem to be very enthusiastic regarding your cause, but I feel you are going about it the wrong way,,,,let me explain.  When something is wrong, or someone is being wronged,,,the first thing I want to do is shout it from the nearest rooftop and tell anyone around me what is happening and how we fix it, if someone disagrees with me I want to step over them to get to someone who will. 

Sadly, this doesn't work to get the majority of people on my side, it only tend to alienate the very people who could help me most of the times,,,,,this is what you are doing.  I'm not saying,,,,wash my hands and I'll wash yours, but there are other ways of going about these things rather than throwing insults then only half-apologizing for them,,,,,ask how you can work with the organization to try to point them in the direction you feel they should go.

ONFA is not the enemy, but you are acting like they are already.

I think I'll stop there and probably just stay away from the net for a couple days till I get things sorted out.

Id@

  As I said Nate, I am not picking on you. I don't care what the Board said, I asked how you feel. I know that what you said here is repeated to those I am working against. The "funny" thing is, they love the fact that ya'll will let your feelings about me cloud your judgement.

   Many folks like you are saying the same thing Nate, so what do you recommend I do? Keep my information to myself? I brought information out to ya'll at first, without the sarcastic remarks, but ya'll took that as "attacking" Mr. Lint.

   I bring facts, logical thought processes to bear, and  ya'll call that "attacking". Stop, think, take a look at what I said. You didn't read my post. You thought I was asking you to tell us what was said in a BoD meeting. I never asked that, only your thoughts on it. It seems that both you and Mr. Thompson allowed the two folks I have been warning you about, Linda Duever and Mr. Lint, persuade you that I am the enemy. That and your belief that I want to see ONFA dissolve. I want neither.

    I have apologized before, did you see that? Did you acknowledge that? You or anyone else? Nope. You didn't want that apology. I kept to what I said when I apologized, till I saw Mr. Thompson was trying to mislead folks in another thread. I have shown how his misdirection over a simple, innocent question and misleading statements about his true association with Mr. Lint should be a wake-up call to folks when asking him more serious questions.

   I have not "attacked" you either in this post or the previous one either Mr. Basset (hope I spelled that right.) I haven't asked you to reveal what was said in what should have been a public meeting. I know the ONFA BoD would not want to get out what some of them trully feel, but I tell you anyway. I know ONFA is hiding  how close they are really working with the Forestry, but I am not fooled. I would not put you, in the position of revealing to us what really goes on in the meetings. I go to the CAG meetings. I read Ms. Duever's site. I know what she is about, and if she is going to these meetings, I know pretty much what she says and how nice it sounds.

   I have to laugh too, the folks who are telling you I am hurting what you are doing, are the very folks I am warning you about! Every time someone says I am hurting the cause, it is the very people I warn them about that convince them of that!  ::) The fact that you and others listen to them instead of what I am telling you is both hilarious and a tragedy for the cause. By the time you realize you it, you have lost everything!

  Here is a great quote:
  "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1904

I don't care how much you try to "apologize" when you keep going on with the same behavior that you are apologizing for, the apology means nothing.

People who are truely apologetic about anything will show it, not just say the words.

"be good and you will be lonesome, be lonesome and you will be free, that's what living is to me."

Jimmy Buffett

a little quote somewhat borrowed from Sam Clemens.

Id@

  Don't like Jimmy Buffet, to much a greenie for me. Depends on what Samuel Clemens meant by "be good" doesn't it? Be good could mean doing what you feel is right, be good could mean not bucking the flow, be good could mean standing strong against opposition, as in the quote I put up. Interesting, I will look up the context of that quote, thanks Ida.

   As I said too, I did mean my apology, did any of you "accept it" after it was made in the time before I got pissed at someone's deliberate misdirection? Nope. Sorry Ida, you had no intention of accepting my apology, again, just be honest. I admire that more than the "white lies" than anything else.

  Hey, am I helping you vent? You can vent on me, I don't mind, and "yelling" at me is much more harmless than getting worked up at your ex. You can turn me off... :P

  Here is the whole quote by Mark Twain:

  Be good and you will be lonesome.
- Following the Equator

  That quote is only a little part of that line. Interesting...

This chic is wacko man. I won't be reading her crap anymore.

   Boy, man....that really bums me out!  :( Not!!!  :P

  Oh man, I just thought of another reason that ONFA would want to back the Byway, despite two of its BoDs speaking out against the Byway.....grant monies!  Oh, all-of-a-sudden now the Byway is wanted/needed by ONFA....just keeps getting more and more interesting.....

  I should have posted this before, many groups like ONFA have been started by State and Federal agencies as a front for grants. Friends of State Forests has been started for just this purpose. I am not surprised that the Forestry started ONFA for this purpose.

   I am just amazed, and will keep repeating my amazement about this fact. That two folks on here have claimed over and over again how bad they think the Byway is, yet are going to keep ONFA involved in it. What are ya'll (the message board members) gonna do and say when ONFA is made a partner in the Byway? Once ONFA is made a partner, they will have to abide by the Corridor Management Plan. That is what partner means.

I am not a member of the ONFA, nor do I personally know any members of the ONFA, nor have I ever spoken at length with any members of the ONFA. But I would like to say there is two sides to every story and reasoning to every decision that the average person will not know or comprehend. If the ONFA is "partners" with the by-way, then perhaps it is to have an inside eyeball on what they are doing? Nothing in this world is black and white, the ONFA has their reasons that they may or may not choose to reveal. Until they actually do, do something that would cause some area to close or have more restrictions come into place I think this discussion is a pretty pointless waste of time.

My .02 from an outsider.

  ONFA does not want an "inside view". Anyone can attend the meetings whenever they choose without being a partner. I have stated a couple of times that both Terry and Nate have expressed their opposition to the byway. Yes, there are two sides to every story. I am sorry, but I feel that you have a right to know why two people who oppose something personally would want you, their sponsor involved.

   Florida Airboat Association (FAA) has stayed a member of Florida Wildlife Federation (FWF), but only by one vote. Do you know why? A few men stood up and expressed their "keep your enemies closer" idea and the fact that they want to have a vote on an organization that is an against the very ideas that it was started for. One of those men is a life-long member of FWF.  Sometime after FAA voted, the one man who was the life-long member of FWF called the FAA president back and apologized for being one of the influences of keeping FAA a member of FWF. He realized what I was saying, to stay a member, or become a partner is to give such organizations "support" either monitarily or through being a "partner".

    This man was not dumb. He had the idea to just "get along" and "work with" someone too. Folks, look at the win today down in Collier County. Ya'll now have a place to play. That didn't happen by "working with" the SFWMD. That didn't come from "keeping their enemy closer". That came from fighting against the grain. Against those who took away the places to play. Ya'll really need to start hearing this. I am not saying this stuff to cause trouble. I have been talking with others who have been fighting for more than 15-years, this is from their experience. I am saying things that they have found out the hard way. Who are any of you to think that things will be different just because you are in the game?

   Until you attend the meetings I do, hear what is said, see for yourself what "they" are all about, you have no clue what is really going on out there. You don't want to listen to someone who has been attending meetings, talking to these folks for over 3-years now.

   Do ya'll know that at the Blue Ribbon Panel meeting I attended in Aug. 5, 2005 that the Forestry representative leaned over, in front of me, and said to the SJRWMD guy; "we should work harder to let the private sector know how much money is in off-road recreation, that way we can get them (meaning us, the ORVs and OHVs) off of our lands." Yes, the Forestry Rep from Tallahassee said that. Hello! Wake up and hear the things being said about you! Think, reason, open your minds......

I guess my biggest objection here is the condensending way people are lectured.  Maybe, just maybe, there are people as smart or smarter than the lecturer.   I despise hearing an anchor person after a speech telling me what was said.  I can understand what is going on without that extra twaddle.  While I respect everyone's right to have a view, I do not need or want it shoved down my throat.  I am completely capable of research and study as anyone else is.   I appreciate the efforts the ONFA is making and expect because they are human that there will be errors in the process. 

COUGH, COUGH

yes, but the quote I put up was the chorus of "That's what living is to me" by Jimmy Buffett and in the beginning of the song he quoted Clemens,,,then made a little remark near the end of the song about him.

That song prompted me to read the book.

Id@

quick, what am I thinking now,,,,,since you say you can read what others think I thought you might be able to tell me now.

don't presume you know what I, or anyone else is thinking or intends to do.

Now you really are sounding like my ex-wife.

There was a reason I stopped paying attention to her ranting,,,,seems like the same reason I should stop paying attention to yours.

Id@

 Now, now, all men say that when evading the truth...  :P Girls, ya'll can relate right?  ;)

not really.  I dont think there was any evasion.  Anyway I can fully relate with how he feels about ex's. 

high five?

 :w

Id@

 :-*