ATV Florida Forum

First off this is not intended to be a religious debate. It's me commenting on current events regarding some facts that are not changed regardless of your religious point of view. This is not intended to offend anyone or start a religious discussion, it's more about the facts of what has been going on.

facts - we are frequently at odds with some nations in the world many of which just happen to be Islamic nations (among others)
fact - in these Islamic nations we are hated , called infidels, and the citizens there are encouraged to hate, torture, kill us even if it is through guerrilla tactics and regardless if it kills civilians, women, and children in the process.
fact -while fighting the war on terror (not going to have a political debate either) many people that are against terrorist are kidnapped, tortured, and beheaded.
fact - someone made a comic with allah or muhamed in it and riots broke out.
fact - the pope called muhammed a teacher of inhuman things
fact - violence broke out against any religion in the region that is not Islamic- the violence was committed by those that believe in Islam
fact - a nun was killed because of violence blamed on what the pope said


the pope said something and muslims immediately begin attacking and killing those of other religions, the pope used more words to "take back " what he said and they said it's not enough. why is it enough for words to start violence but not enough to end it?
and why is it that words that call muslims and islam a violent group are enough to set of riots? isn't that just  proving what was said is true?

I'm just baffled at how people can feign outrage at being called violent when everything they do is aimed at ridding the Earth of everyone but their own religion. They say we can't be against them in this country because they believe in another religion, but around the world they torture and kill others for not being of their religion. they refuse to acknowledge an entire country's right to exist just because they are not muslim.

Is it just me or do they seem like a group that is not only severely hypocritical, but ultra-violent looking for any excuse to riot and kill anyone that is not muslim ?

They refuse to acknowledge the right of Israel to even exist due to their religion and they  fund and encourage people to attack Israel. Israel responds to try and protect their selves and are criticized for using too much force? what is too much? what is disproportional when you are attacked with rocket fire on almost a daily basis? I say there is no such thing other than nuclear weapons. obviously they didn't go overboard seeing as how they have already been attacked again after backing off.

the whole while the impotent UN urges restraint on Israel's part - they refuse to enforce a long standing UN resolution to disarm a terrorist organization which is why Israel had to defend them selves in the first place.
And to top it off the UN jumps on Israel for accidentally killing some UN "peacekeepers". How is that to be avoided when terrorists were camped right next to the UN post and they were firing rockets from that very position? And why doesn’t the UN condemn the Muslims for constantly attacking not only Israel, but anyone that is not Muslim? Why is it Muslims can do what ever they want in the name of their religion while we are frowned upon if we hold the suspected terrorists for a while in Cuba?
They video tape the torture and murder by beheading of civilians while we are seen as monsters in the world’s eyes for putting some panties on a terrorist’s head. Our soldiers are tried for shooting a wounded yet still armed and dangerous enemy while they kill our reporters.

like I said I am not anti any religion. I believe you have the right to believe as you wish no matter what I believe. and I like to debate it but you have your right to subscribe to any political point as well. but listed above are facts that aren't tainted by religion or party bias and we are still seen as the bad guys for being against the actions of such groups ? I just can't understand it.

The pope is being bashed and blamed for the violent outbursts for simply speaking the truth about the majority of a group. The group in question responds with murderous violence and instead of being seen as the bad guys they are somehow the victims in this scenario while the pope is seen as a bad person. I just don’t get it.

If anyone can explain this conundrum to me please, please enlighten me. If not thanks for reading anyway.

Cain

HMMM,THIS SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FER UNCLE RICO!

I say we just kill all the muslims in the world and be done with it. Nasty fu$kers. >:(

Ya... hey thats the answer, GENOCIDE. Well, at least you'd have something in
common with Hitler. Hehe

And something in common with the Muslims that you'd be killing. After all the don't want to acknokledge anyone's right to live unless they are Muslim. Would that be "Religious Cleansing" ?

The reason you "don't get it" is becuase while those may be
"facts" you stated, they are NOT all the facts. I don't really
believe you seek enlightenment, but maybe I am wrong.

Dan

Then please educate me with additional facts that make such violence seem rational.
Does that mean anytime I'm called Infidel I can go on a killing spree at the nearest mosque ? What I don't get is the one sidedness of the whole situation. I understand that not everyone will get along or like each other, but for organizations such as the UN to verbally bash one while sitting idley by as another group perpetrates such senseless acts of violence against anyone not of their religion astounds me.
another for instance - Israel and Palestinians will never like each other.
The Palestinians said they wanted Israel to withdrawl from certain areas of dispute - a compromise was made Israel withdrew when they are the stronger of the two militarily speaking. Still they are frequently attacked. What is their motivation to give up land that they can take and keep?
I don't understand why some are ok to set aside any rules of engagement while others are heald to such unrealistic standards.

Here is a link:

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:38-zeruBuZwJ:www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm+when+was+israel+formed&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

OR this:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm

Isreal has NO rightful claim to territory in that region basically, thats why
they are not welcome. We helped put them there AND we supply arms to them.

In order for you to achieve enlightenment you have to question not only the motives and
actions of others BUT yourself(US) as well. Are you willing to do that?

I still think this is the wrong place for this type of discussion. No matter how nice it starts
it will end heated for sure.

Take care,
Dan

i say we have a pig roast and invite some muslims for a debate

Yea , thats the ticket. ;)

You got my vote Mr. President.  They certainly are some nasty bass turds.

So if it's all about Isreal, what was the reason/excuse for the towel heads being so antisocial before then,      Pershing had to kill a bunch of them before ww2 even started in the Phillipines, They were using the same candy-assed tactics then as they do now ambush then hide behind the nearest women/child.  What the f**k is so wrong with these people. >:D

number one the UN is corrupt and nothing they say can be trusted.number two our own media I believe is partialy to blame for the deaths of our soldiers and civilians,they publicise a view that portrays our military as monsters causing our goverment to back off and not use offinsive force to prevent having to defend ourselfs on our own turf .Examples cant shoot till shot at ,cant blow up mosques even if recieving enemy fire from there, cant kill known enemys if their at a funeral ,and they show every time a missel goes astray and hits a building with a few presumed innocent people but will not show 9/11 and people leaping from the top floors to avoid being burned to death ,but they will show panties on a terrorist head and say he was mistreated resulting in a US citizen being beheaded , or showing one of our military men shooting a wounded terrorist that was still armed and was shooting at them moments earlier ,now our men are scared to shoot armed terrorists becouse they may be court marshalled .I say use all air power we have available, take out all known enemies while we have the chance ,hand to hand combat should not be neccasary ,racial profiling should be allowed (its not old ladies in wheelchairs crashing planes into buildings).We use profiling everyday to solve murders and other crimes .Other cuntries use profiling to protect themselves why arent we.1 last thought did anyone here Rosie odonald compaired Christians to terrorists on the show the view.She should be sent to IRAN so she can see for one how women are treated and two how lesbians are treated (their killed its against allha to be gay).

I'm with quad 32x. Back when this country would destroy anyone who messed with us or our people (a.ka. japan) other countries knew to leave us alone or be dealt with. Now our countrty has become so P.C. and liberal that nobody is afraid of the US. If somebody comes in YOUR home and messes with your family are you gonna sit there and try to talk it out with them and come up with a peaceful solution?? Or even better yet, are you gonna listen to and do what some guy that lives down the street or in another town and how HE thinks YOU should handle YOUR business in YOUR house. I think if the US would decimate anyone who messed with us these chicken s*#t terrorists and countries would leave us alone.

I think it can be said that a majority of Islamic people are just totally ignorant.  I'm not saying they are dumb because some of them are very smart but they are an ignorant people because they are still fighting wars that happened over a 1000 years ago.  They don't beleive in forgiveness and so they hold grudges for all time. 

Now some might say that it is only the Islamic extremist that are the problem but I don't believe it.  All the Islamic countries in the middle east are teaching hatred of the west and western values so these countries are part of the problems.  Also the moderate Islamic people are not speaking out against the extremist and so it seems they believe in the extremist causes.  Look at the Islamic people you see on tv do any of them look happy, no they don't there religion will not allow it so they are destined to be miserable and hatefull for the rest of their life. 

I have known 2 Islamic people enough to call them friends.  The first guy was from Libya and he was a very nice guy and very smart.  I was in my early 20's then (1982) so I did not speak to him about politics and never heard him say anything bad about the Jewish people.  The other guy was from Jordan, he had an engineering degree from a prominenct college in this country but he drove a cab for a living, I never understood that  :K.  This guy hated the Jews and blamed them for all the worlds problems, thank goodness he went back to his homeland.

I may be stretching it alittle to call all Islamist ignorant but if it is not all of them it is most of them,  They would still be living in the stone age today if they did not have oil wealth.   If you look where ever Islam is spreading there is trouble, Africa and Asia especially are having all kinds of religious wars because of Islam.

I don't understand why the rest of the world does not open its eyes and see the problem.  The Islamics have already declared war on the west but the Europeans (not the British) just don't wont to except the fact that western civilization is under attack.

What's the answer to the problem?  I don't know but an all out religious war is not out of the question.  The Popes days are probably numbered so maybe that will wake up the rest of the world.  The UN is totally useless and should be left out of any answers.  In the end I think all free non-Islamic countries will have to open and all out war on Islam before this will ever be over with because like I said earlier you can't reason with Islamist because they are IGNORANT

well said fishahallic

Let me first start off by saying I'm a muslim...."I'm a Muslim".

Now, I agree with you to a certain point, kill all the Muslims, but that's not enough, why just stop at killing us?  Certainly we're not the only people who have engaged in violence based on religion.

Surely you must remember Eric Rudolph, the one who engaged in multiple bombings on your own holy US soil.  He was the bomber of abortion clinics in the name of the holy Christian religion! Shouldn't terrrorist bombings such as that recieve the same lack of tolerance as violence carried out by muslims?

And what about the Catholics...why not get rid of all of them. Surely you haven't forgotten your history, (beacause you seem to be very well educated) with regards to the INQUISITION.  I'm sure you remember those people who were tortured and killed in the name of the Holy Roman Church.

And of course you remember the systematic slaughter of the Jews by the Crusades in the SLAUGHTER OF THE INNOCENTS, as spurred on by Pope Urban II. Should we kill all these non muslim based religions as well?

I'm just looking for some constency in who you want to wipe off the face of the map!

FishaHalic, VERY WELL PUT.

Today I read the paper whereas the Islamic terrorist were quoted that this is "an all out war against the west and the worshipers of the cross".  For the majority, and as FishaHalic stated, because I don't here any Islamic coming out and saying otherwise, that this is war, a war whereas the Islamic wants the whole world to be converted to Isalm.  And yes, some say this is not forum to discuss this issue, but let me just say, if you don't realize that we are at war, a war that could change our lives drastically, then as Alan Jackson would say, you must of forgotten.  I heard someone say today, that they have a young relative fighthing the war in Irag, do they want him to come home, well yea, of course. But!  This person realizes that if all our troups just come home, and leave things as they are, then the war will be here, in the US.  That this person could just as easily die here in the US, in a terrorist attack.

What the Pope stated, I believe is so taken out of context.  I keep reading, oh what the Pope said, has outraged the Islamic Religion, well you know what, what happen on 9/11 outrage the world.  

We have been very lucky, and even perhaps by the grace of God, that we have not been attacked again since 9/11.  Come on, think back to that day, when we we knew that anyday we would be hit again.  Well, you know what, if this country and the people of this country don't get their head out of their a$$, and realize we are at war, we will be attacked again.  They, (Islamic extremist) hate us, and nothing we can do will change their hate for us.  We represent freedom, and that freedom frightens them.  Because it is fear what they rule by, they live off the fear they create in others.  But this country needs to get back to what was right after Pearl Harbour, as was said, "we have woken a sleepin giant".  Well, thats what we must be that strong, united we stand, divided we fall nation, the same we felt after 9/11.  

These terrorist are every where, and it's a time to take a stand.  We need to let our leaders know that we are in this fight for the long run.  Our children deserve the same freedom that we have always had!

So you know, what, spread the word, no matter what forum.  Cause we just go about our normal lives, not even given a thought to what happen on 9/11, more worried about where we are going to ride.  You know what, the more important issue is this Country, for what she stands and what she believes, freedom, liberty and justice for all.  We are, one nation under God, and that's what we stand for.  

Please people, find some compassion for this country, our troops, and stand united against terrorism.  If we don't 9/11 will amount to nothing to what we could face in the future.  This is a war, we are at war, and we must face that fact.  No other entity has killed more innocent people than 9/11, the only thing that one can compare it too, is Pearl Harbour.  And look back then, our country stood strong, united and fought the enemy.  Well, now our enemy is not so easily seen, for they are here, they are in our country and although they live off our land, they also look to destroy what we believe in.

What can we do, VOTE. I not saying democrat, republician, or independent, no, vote for the leaders that our going to defend us in this battle.  Don't listen to b/s, oh lets pull our troops out, NO, we must WIN this war, we must support and pray for our troops, for they are fighting our battles.  Think about it really, don't you think for a minute if we just pull out of Iraq and Afganistan, that these terrorist wont bring the battle right here.  What do you think, they terrorist are going to say, oh, look the US pulled out wasn't that nice.  No they are going say, look the US they are cowards, they run from our fear!!!

Lighten up Paul. ;)

310R_Dude , First off why can't this be discussed or debated on this forum?  This is an open discussion forum so I would say this is the best place to discuss this.  I don't see the need to open a whole new website to discuss the Islam problem.   

Secondly, WE (the United States) did not put Isreal where it now located, I believe it was the decision of the League of Nations or the United Nations which ever one they had at the time which was in the late 40's.  Why they did it I don't know but if that area is NOT the Jewish homeland then I don't know where it would be.  Now even if is not the proper place for Isreal it's too late now.   What's done is done and there is no way in he ll that they can move it now.

We must accept the fact that Isreal is where it is and is not going anywhere so now the only question is what can we do to solve the Islamic war on the West?  What are your thoughts?  Whether I agree or disagree with you I still would like to hear others opinion (no matter how wrong they are  ;D).

It is an interesting conundrum, Cain.

I drew a political cartoon of the prophet Mohammed to explain it to you visually, but it won't upload for some reason.

I think there's a fallacy in the quantifying of your logic, but putting that aside for a moment, I would say that I also have troubling reconciling how individuals of who follow the Holy Quaran can engage in violence in the name of Allah.

This violence is inconsistent with what the Holy Quaran teaches, and is yet another example of individuals hijacking a religion and using it as an excuse to commit aggressions as well as transgressions against others.

I would like to see moderate muslims and the Muslim leadership speak out against this violence. The fact that they remain reticent concerns me.

Putting it simply, the individuals who are using the Pope's ignorance as an excuse to engage in aggression are the problem, not the group. Yet, I think people in a fallacy of logic, tend to blame the group rather than the indviduals.  Islam isn't your enemy, those irrational hate mongers who hijack Islam and twist it's words and teaching are the true enemy.

Until we can identify the problem accurately, we can not move head.


Peace Out
- Uncle Rico

Proverbs 31:6

BrewsYourDaddy,  your a muslim or are you joking?  If you are a muslim then I'm sorry but you are part of the problem if YOU, YOURSELF have not stood up and screamed in your loudest voice that what the Islamic extremist are doing is wrong.  Maybe you have I don't know but if you have then  :ThumbsUp.gif and if you have not then you must condone the targeted killings of innocent civilians including women and children.  Please note that I said targeted killings not collateral damage like is done in war but the bombing of people in a market buying food, suicide bombers blowing themselves up on buses with school children and so on.  If you are truly a muslim now would be a good time to enlighten us infidels about what we are doing wrong. 


 






If you really are a Muslim then you proved my point in my very first post on this subject and that is that you are still fighting over things that happened 100's if not 1000's of years ago.  You mentioned the Crusades and the Inquisition dude you guys need to let it go, it's over you can't change it all you can do is move on and try not to let it happen again. 

Just think 200 years ago we had a war with England and know we are the closest allies of each other.  A little over 50 years ago we had a war with Germany and Japan and now look,  our countries have prospered and grown to the point where everyone in the world wants to be here.  In the Muslims case they fought wars against who knows who but they still will not let them go.  Heck as far as I know the Muslim countries may have won the wars but they are still pissed off and it just sits there and festers in their guts, know wonder Muslims are so miserable.  If the West is soooo bad and full of perversians like alcohol, drugs, perverted woman wearing practilly nothing, then why are so many Muslims coming here?    If you are a Muslim please enlighten us because as you know we are all infidels and we need enlightment.

Fish:

I think he/she is joking. You'd never be able to fit the turban under a helmet when riding an ATV.

But he/she does make some valid points. Aren't all different religions guilty of some sort of attack on the innocents, if we go back in history.

I mean, I know YOU being a strict puritain (I'm judging this based on your black hat with the buckle and matching buckled shoes) like to dunk witches 'till they drowned.

"BURN THE WITCH!"

Brews, don't worry, I understand your plight, and I feel bad that some of my fellow members want to judge you based on the actions of others.

Pay no attention to Quad32x either, he doesn't even have a quad to ride, and he hangs out here. So at least you're not the wierdest one here.

P.S. Cheroprides is just preaching her ACLU hate speech. She's like a card carrying member of the ACLU or so I've heard.

 She wants to ban religions.

- Peace Out
Uncle Rico

P.S. Sorry about the turban under the helmet visualization...it's meant to be funny not offensive.

Uncle Rico, I like your post and most are very funny but in this case I must be missing something, I don't really understand what your trying to say.  Are you saying Musliim extremist are not the biggest problem the world is facing this very minute?  Please explain!

Also the towel head would not have to wear a helmet because the bed sheet would cushion his closed minded little brain.

Dan - I see where some may get heated over such a discussion, but it won't be me. I am willing to ask such a question as I did actually looking for an answer that makes sense so motivation is not an issue.
Israel was not exactly the focus, just an example. However, they took their land by force fighting several countries at the same time. We took our land from the Indians, does that mean we should give it back? all land since the history of time has been taken and kept by land so looking back and saying they aren't welcome because they took some won't cut it. the thing is that they are there and now they are hated because they are non-muslims that hold land in a muslim dominated region.

back to the original issue - I don't look at Islam as a regligion as a "problem". I'm sure there are tons of Muslims that are great peaceful people. But there are many more that believe that by being Muslim that they have the right and even the responsibility to kill anyone that is not of the same faith.
If they had their way the Muslims would kill all Israelites just because of their faith. When they finished with them they would (as they have before) turn their sites to us. The ultimate goal of many that practice Islam is that of a world composed solely of Muslims.

YEs many wars have been perpetuated based upon religious beliefs, which is usually more of a territory thing. The difference is that while religions (including Christians) have fought each other divided among religious lines, they don't seek to kill everyone in the world escept their particular denonination as the Muslims do. In fact the Muslims obviously are willing to kill their own as evidence by the Iran Iraq war and the crimes committed by Sadam when he gassed so many of his own country.

I don't think the fact that so many hate and kill in the name of Islam is so much my question, it's more of why is it that they are excused? We can' tolerate our soldiers putting panties on an enemy captures head, while they can torture and behead our civilians? not to mention we catch hell for liberating a country (regardless of political point of view or reasons for going in) and they aren't even held to the UN resolutions passed to disarm the terrorists.
The Pope is seen as a horrible person for saying muslims are a violent people, yet the muslims that decided to go out and attack non-muslims are seen as the victims? I still don't get it.

Let me clarify:

I was saying that not all Muslims should be held accountable for the actions of a few.

I think that the problem of muslim extremists are second only to the poisioning of spinach in this country by those who hate freedom, namely Ecoli.

Rico, as much as I hate to quote GW but here goes "You either with us or your against us
'  damn that hurt I never thought I would quote him.  I see we have a small difference of opinion on this subject but that's why open discussions are a good thing, we can discuss differences without pulling out a sword and beheading someone.  But just in case I will be bringing my sword to the Ocala ride  ;D.

It's all good, I abhor violence. I don't even like to see people who deserve to die, die. That's how much of a tree huggin, bleedin' heart liberal I am.

But hey, like you said, it's good that we can agree to disagree, and not cut each other's heads off.


Proverbrs 31:6

It's all good, I abhor violence. I don't even like to see people who deserve to die, die. That's how much of a tree huggin, bleedin' heart liberal I am.

But hey, like you said, it's good that we can agree to disagree, and not cut each other's heads off.


Proverbs 31:6

 Once again, I know I'm going to regret getting involved in this discussion, but what the hell, I'll throw in my 2 cents.
 The problem with the majority of our opinions is the fact that they are based on information supplied to us by a media that does not portray an accurate picture of actual events. Don't kid yourself, all big media has an agenda, and is controlled by  powerful people and/or corporations who also have agendas.
 The average US citizen has no idea what the real story is. We are force fed "the hard hitting truth" from the media, and constantly reminded of terrorism by the government. The government knows that people would never allow them to "take" their rights. However, a basic rule of psychological warfare is to make you afraid of something, and then offer to protect you from your fears, "but" the trade off is that it's going to cost some of your rights.
 If you really start to research terrorism, and 9/11 in particular, it is clear that this was not something just planned by some Islamic extremists. There was much more involved. I'm not going to go into a whole spill, because I don't want to be dismissed as a "conspiracy kook". Look at the video Uncle Rico posted a week or so ago. It's just a breif overview of what I'm talking about. There too many holes in the entire situation for it to even begin to be true. Start researching it further and you will really start to question what's up.
 
  

1)We have all seen how these threads go "usually", that's all I was stating. Maybe
   this time it will be different ;)
 
2)"We must accept the fact that Isreal is where it is..."  NO, THEY must accept it.
   That is quite different.  Imagine if someone was capable of taking the middle of
   the USA for their own, how would WE think, feel and/or act.

3)Solving the problem... Develop alternative fuel and then they can fight 'til the end
   of time if they desire. the only reason we have interest is OIL, plain and simple!

Peace,
Dan

I'm sorry but IMO that's not even worthy of discussion.  The conspiracy theories have way too many holes in the story to debate and one of them is that there would have to be 1000's of people involved and yet none of these people has talked, not likely.  The fact is we were attacked by Islamic extremist on 9-11, we have seen OBL admit it on tape, and we know who the perps where, all Islamic extremist.   Do you guys think that the liberal leaning press as you call it would not be all over the story of our government being involved in 9-11, that's pulitzer prize winning stuff.  Anyhow that is a whole nother thread that will need to be addressed after we take care of our current problem........................Islam.

I was just using the "creation" of territory known as Isreal as a starting point, not the entire
answer.

Okay, the reason you don't get it is because you have probably not in your life sunk to that
level of desperation.

I am not being sympathetic for terrorist in the least. But you have to dig deeper for the real
answers than just what gets said over and over and over.

Peace,
Dan

310R_Dude ,

1.  I think this forum has proven that we can each speak our mind (Please see the "GOD" thread) and still be civil toward each other, if we all just keep our heads on our shoulders (which will be difficult if the Islamics have their way) everything will be fine.

2.  When I said WE must accept the fact that Isreal is where it is I meant WE being the world and especially the Muslims must accept that fact.

3.  I totally agree with you that oil is the route of all our problems.  If we did not need the ragheads oil we would not be over there medling in there affairs and they could just fight among themselves till the end of time.  Look at Africa, they have absolutely nothing this nation desires so when there is a Genocide going on in Rhowanda (?) we did nothing, now the same thing is happening in the Sudan and we still will do nothing.  So if it was not for oil in the Middle East we would care aless about them killing themselves but we would have to help our allie in Isreal.  I have said it before and I will say it again we need a Manhattan style project to come up with an alternative fuel, this would save us billions and billions of $ and would save alot of American and other Western nations lives.

There is NO level of despiration that can justify killing innocent people. Innocent people in Isreal are constantly in fear of attack by groups like "Hezbollah", which is a terrorist organization. Hezbollah works in concert with the "government" of Iran. Iran is the head of the terrorist snake. Iraq (Hussain) was just the body of the snake and a training ground for these type of groups. Now things are so screwed up that people are actually using the words "terrorist" and "rights" in the same damn sentence. AMAZING!!!!! I for one cannot advocat the killing of all Muslims. I just don't believe that all Muslims are bad people. But, who wouldn't love an ATV park the size of Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan put together???? I know I would.

I like your thinking fastrnick, At least there's a few with intelligent thinking. You too Dano, Thats the main reason for there hate towards us. Isreal!!!!!!!! And our Jewish owned media here in the U.S.A.  What a great country, To bad we don't own it or control it. :(  

So are you saying the atomic bombs we dropped on Japan killed ONLY soldiers?

Obviously this is a rhetorical question ;)

Yep....pretty sure it was only soldiers.   ::)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

Of particular note:

"...around 214,000 people in both cities, most of the casualties were civilians."

They were dress as civilians right and babies too. I seen it on BET Television.

I'm kinda young so forgive me if i'm wrong...but....I don't think that was a pre-emptive strike. Pretty sure that was a retaliation. Collatteral damage and civilian casualties are something that the Japanese govt. should have considered, Not our govt. If I've got my history right, it was a beautiful sunny morning in 1941 and our boys and girls were attacked.

This thread is all over the place!

So, do we agree that killing people is wrong?

I think we are going out on a limb here when we say this.

Anyone here ever heard of ATVFLORIDA.com???? It was this really cool site where we used to talk about 4-wheelers & muddin & poppin wheelies. Man.....it was great!!!!!

That suggestion to kill all Muslims, would that be a so-called Conservative American's opinion? If so, would the suggestion to kill all worshippers of the cross be a Conservative Muslim's opinion?

1.  Yes I watch alot of news and read papers and magazines and if you say these are all Jewish controlled so what, where do you get your news from Aljeezera.  The facts are our Jewish controlled press as you put it (which is odd because some of you say it's a liberal press which if it was Jewish controlled I would think it would be more conservative) has reported a bombing in New York on 9-11-01.  They have also reported bombings in London, Italy and Spain, did all these bombings not happen and our Jewish controlled press just make them up, I think not.  They did happen and they all will happen again unless we wake up and stop blaming the Jews for all our problems.

2.   If you can't see the difference in targeting large cities in a war where over 7 million people were killed than I feel sorry for you.  If you remember we did not start the war with Japan they did a surprise attack on us.  Yes we targeted Hiroshima with a atom bomb, that city was the HQ of one of Japans largest army, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were demonstrations of superior weapons to force the Japanese to surrender.  At the time it was estimated that if we were to invade Japan we would lose over 200,000 if our own soldiers not mention the close to a million people in Japan that would have been killed fighting a useless fight.  Yes it was cruel but necessary to ultimatly save many more lives both Japanese and American.   I don't know I just see how you could possibly compare an Islamic extremist bombing a bus full woman and children to what happened in Japan.

3.  Rico, I wish just like everyone else that the killing could stop but just because you want it to won't make it happen.  The only way to stop it is for the whole world to convert to Islam and I am not prepared to do that are you?   Let us say we do convert to Islam just say the Sunni sect of Islam then the Sheites would be looking to kill you so no matter what someone is gonna try to kill you.  It's a no win situation but that does not mean we should not try, maybe we can set up a booth at the Ocala ride for those of you who wish to convert then maybe all the killing would stop.  Good lucki

First off, Brad500 commented that:

 "There is NO level of despiration that can justify killing innocent people."

Which I then pointed out the USA dropping atomic bombs, obviously
knowing there was going to be mass civilian casualties.

Now when you weigh his statement against facts of history, it seems
surely there IS some level of desperation that justifies the killing of
innocent people.

Try to stay on the point and quit redirecting it, please.

Wow we are really getting off course here. In WWII the atomic bombs were used as opposed to a full scale invasion of Japan and Manchuria resulting in many civilian Japanese deaths instead of many many deaths on both sides if we invaded the actual Island to quell the imperialistic desires of the Japanese empire. Killing civilians is not something that is readily sought, but seeing as how most of those would have fought tooth and nail against our soldiers the only difference in results is less overall killed (that's the theory anyway) and it was them instead of us.
The middle east is a different situation. It is more of a precursor to such an emperialistic aspiration by the Muslims as they would eventually seek to kill everyone except Muslims then they would undoubtedly fight it out amonst each other Shia vs, Sunni vs (I forget the other version)
We aren't just in the region for oil although yes that plays a part as it could cripple our economy - at which time many would say "why did we let this happen" - where as now they say we shouldn't be there over oil.
at any rate we need to be there for stability (stop laughing) if we weren't there to support democrasy Israel would be bombarded from all sides (again) and might resort to Nukes. This would only make things much worse for the world. or if they lost Iran or Iraq or Syria or some other US hating nation would surely sieze the nuclear technology and use it against us.
Why is it so many cry about us being in the middle east but not about us staying in Korea, or Germany for the very same reasons?
People cry about 3,000 soldiers giving their lives to make the world a better place when so many more lost their lives in one day at Normandy. There is a cost to a free world and unfortunately as the only true superpower we must take on most of the burden.
It still leaves the original quandry - why is it we are so bad when we are the ones striving for stability and peace? we are played up in the media and world court for saying violent people are violent? I agree the media usually has an agenda but it's usually along a political line. In this case the pope said saomething and the Muslims attacked non Muslim churches and killed a nun over words that are painfully obviously true.

You made your own point, converting to Islam won't solve anything. Shia kill Sunni, Sunni kill Shia, They blow up each others mosques.

The only true path to light is for each of us to practice Ahimsa.

I'll see if I can bring a Budhist Monk to the Ocala trail ride to convert you heathens!

Okay here is the quandry that bewilders you...

cain wrote:
"we are played up in the media and world court for saying violent people are violent?"

And yet WE(USA) are the most agressive(killing) nation for the past 50 years.

Maybe our methods are different but the result is the same.


Oh by the way, did I tell you how much I love riding quads. Last nite I rode for like
30 minutes in an absolute down pour. I only stopped cause mud flew into my eye
after I had to take off both my goggles and my glasses. Man it was too much fun
for a tuesday night I tell ya's... the beer and chicken w'angs afterwards weren't
bad either :)

Take care,
Dan

I sure can't say anything bad about Budhist, Peace be with you.   ;D

To all, I apologize for engaging in this thread. I messed up from a rule
I had set for myself to just stick to quad riding/racing/tech topics.

I would just like to wish everyone the best out of life that they deserve.

And with that being said, I now withdraw from this and future topics of
this nature.

Take care,
Dan

I don't understand why you can't participate in these type topics.  We may or may not agree but there is nothing wrong with discussing these things on the web.  No one was out of line or resorted to name calling or anything .  I see all kinds of topics on this forum heck one guy was trying to get us all to have banana slurrpies which I still need to try.  If it will make everyone happy I promise not to set up the convert to Islam booth at the Ocala ride  ;D but I will be hanging at that Budhist booth cause I hear they are big time partyers   :drink.gif.

You're funny FishaHallic... but cancelling the "convert to Islam booth at the Ocala ride"
is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of line now, so I must kill you. Sorry!!!

J/K, you may live infidel.

the terrorists are just mad that we have toilet paper and they don't ,they use their hand to wipe euwww, the smart ones just moved here and droped the radical part of radical muslims. :)

There will never be an end to conflicts with the majority of these people .
I watched a documentary on the culture of suicide bombers and cant understand how a mother can lead her own to its death .

Hard to relate to these so called people.  :d
 

Im a Theist, and eventually I think we are going to kill ourselves, not litereally though  8)

That's good...I'm gonna steal that one and call it my own.

Oh s#it, here we go ...  the post has been jacked.

theres an easy solution to the whole thing.....
drop a few nukes and turn the entire middle east into a nice shiny new glass parking lot.....end of story.

(yes, it's the pain killers)

Going to add to that, first steal there Oil..... Dang Joe, next youre going to start another two stroke vs 4 stroke thread.

The reason you dont get it! is because she giving it to me! hahahaha......say hello to my kids

Dan  - I'm hoping you will continue to put aside your personal rule about such threads and at least answer this - how is it that we are the most killing nation ? does that include defending ourselves? or are you just looking at total dead on the opposing side? that's my guess and if that's the case that just means we're better at the art of war than those that wish to fight us. Why only 50 years? why not inflate that number by including WWI and WWI ?

Cain has a giant head and is raising big-daddys kids.   Shhhhhhhhhh ........ he thinks there his ! :o :M

I was hoping this frikkin thread was dead. I wish the moderators would nuke this biotchin thread.

Kill them all. Let god sort them out.

Just a side note - people like Dan and myself can intelligently discuss something with no hard feelings even when we disagree to such great extents with no negative repercussions. Then we have some that choose not to participate (totally their right) but wish to complain that about what we do. Not only do they complain about others exercising their rights, they uninteltionally propogate the very thread they say the dispise by replying with their negative comments. so instead of not participating, or simply NOT reading, they keep the thread going but with negative comments and even go so far as to request moderator sanctioned censorship. Hmmmmmmmm this hypocrisy smacks of the very actions I originally brought up in this very thread  :-\

Right on brother ! :ThumbsUp.gif  FREE  Klutchbuster ! ;)

The reason why I wish not to participate anymore is that
it gives the impression that "I", am an anit-American American.

Which is dead wrong.

But I just don't want anyone to see me at the track and judge
me based solely on words I have written on this forum. Like me
OR don't like me, due to personal expeiences with me. That's all.

I think that American people are vastly different then what the
world see's or thinks of us. I think we are good and helping people.

But when it comes to our government and Corporate America,
that's another story of America altogether. And unfortunately,
that's the America most of the world knows.

Well, I don't want to drone on and on... I have to admit though,
this was as civilized discussion on touchy topics as I have seen!

Know this, I love to ride, help my fellow man and think life should
be based more upon people than personal gain.

Wishing all of you truly the best,
Dan

Dan - for the record I never thought of you as un-American and hope no one else here would just because you have a different opinion. To deny you that right would itself be un-American. I respect your decision to not participate any longer in this thread and I understand why and make no judgements based upon your comments here. If nothing else I've gained a respect for you as an intelligent individual able of discussing a controversial topic in a civilized maner.
Regardless of our difference of opinion in this particular matter, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement:
 
"I love to ride, help my fellow man and think life should
be based more upon people than personal gain"

And wish you the best as well.

Cain

I also feel it worthy of mention that the only ones that appeared to be disruptive in this whole thing were the ones that felt it necessary to utter negative or condescending remarks about us for holding a controversial, yet civil discussion about world events. Just goes to show that words like controversial or debate don't have to be synonamous with disruptive or argumentative. In this case the only griping or agrguing was from the ones begging for intervention and censorship to avoid any griping or arguing. Another reason to not read or reply if you don't like what's written or don't want to be part of the discussion because you wish to avoid touchy subjects due to your inability to do so in a civil, adult manner or your lack of intellectual prowess to contribute to the discussion without resorting to childlike behavior.

What , you didnt like my giant head comment ? 2:L

Oh no you give some of the best head stuff I know of  :o

Your gonna make big-d mad ! :o

How can I get mad at Cain, after all he rising my kids.  ;)

oh, there want more black beans and rice.  ;D

I don't understand why some people get so bent out of shape when threads like this are started on this forum.  What's the big deal, if you don't like the thread, then don't read and/or post.  There are many threads I don't post on, but I don't go saying on that thread oh gosh, can we talk about something us.  This is an Open Discussion forum, and if it gets political and/or otherwise from time to time, so be it. 

I think most of us have our opinions, and oh course we all don't have the same opinions, but that's what this world is about.  I don't think bad of anyone who types on this forum, even when their opinions don't agree with mine.  (Well except for Uncle Rico) - lol -just kidding, and see that's the other part of this forum, it's cool having people say like uncle rico, cause you can go back forth with this dude, call him a harp-killing, card carrying ACLU lovin fool, and he can call me a |(let's see what was it, a crazy woman, and some or other) - but it's all in jest and it's for a good laugh.  It's all in the debate, if I ever meet Uncle Rico am I going to run him over w/my 4-wheeler, well maybe-lol, no going sit down, have a beer and more than likely laugh my a$$ off. 

So as Uncle Rico would say, Lighten up Frances.... 

 ;)

listen i was gonna get involved but.......................

i didnt know what half the words ya'll were using meant. ;D