ATV Florida Forum

Has there ever been a reputable scientific study as to wether there is a god?  If so, by whom?  Yes we have the books of the bible that say that there is a god but anyone could have wrote them, I need proof. 

And if this god exist why would this god let millions of people starve to death every year, have thousands of Americans and people world wide suffer the awful affects of cancer and have all these people dying in religious wars?  Why would god have kids born with horrific birth defects to suffer for the rest of their lives, why would there be these huge sunamis that kill over 100,000 people? Are all these people nonbelievers?  Maybe they didn't pray hard enough?  Maybe it's gods will? 

Are you saying that god can create heaven and hell but has no power to stop the suffering of millions of people?   I honestly would like to hear some opinions on this subject.  This thread is not meant to be a debate!

I would much rather believe and find out I was wrong ....

        than to not believe and be wrong. :o


  If you cannot believe in something only because you cannot see it, than do not take another breath of air,
for it is also invisible but is as life sustaining and my belief.

I understand what your saying but that still does not explain the suffering of millions of people and alot of those people are god fearing christians.

Fish: Are you going to start this??? Why. You know whats going to happen. People are going to sound off and start another pissing contest. Look, If you do not believe thats OK. But it sounds like fear to me. What are you afraid of? I think you want to believe but will have to give up a few things if you did. He is a forgiving God so don't worry, it will be oK. People have been trying forever to discredit the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible with no success. Just let it go, say the Lords Prayer and he will forgive you. Its OK. Just like Swamp Donkey said, You better hope these Bible Thumpers are wrong. I have to go home now but if you want to talk about the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, Your savior and mine, PM me and we can see what happens.  

You one of them scientologist tom cruise fans? :N

Fish, you have to understand God has never promised there would be no suffering he only promises to be a forgiving and merciful God. You have to understand that Satan is responsible for thoughts such as yours we have all had them, his job is to create doubt so he can work on you. Know that when God it in your life there will be trials and tribulations but what he brings you to he will bring you through. I have lost allot of wonderfull people in my life and been through some very tough times and I would not have wanted to face any of them with out God. If you would make the drive to Sebring some Sunday I would love to invite you to visit our church with us.

Wow, first gay Ford dealers, and now a bonafide "does God exist" discussion? This site is awesome! Who wants to talk about ATV's when you can read all the interesting posts for these topics. Maybe someone will start a thread claiming the Holocaust was an elaborate hoax, or that the U.S. government invented crack to keep the black man down.   

It amazes me that people even have to ask. We live in a time when people will put money in a coke machine and push the button to dispense their can or bottle, yet if nothing happens they will push it again. Some will do it several times and then usually just switch to a different flavor and try again. The point being that people have more faith in if that machine actually works or contains any sodas to dispense than believe in God. Somehow they can't fathom that the soda machine doesn't work properly or is totally out of soda, but they think there was vast nothingness then BOOM there was a universe and planets which eventually spat forth all the living creatures on Earth. Isn't it more parsimonious to believe that there is a greater being that is responsible? And people as a whole (not necessarily individuals) are what make the world what it is including poverty, starvation, crime, etc. and then have the nerve to say "if there's a God why does he let this happen". One of the things we were gifted with is free will. Yet people don't want to believe they and others like them could be the problem.
Keep pushing that coke button, believe what you want, I know where I'm going.

Amen Brother!

Sorry I don't get this coke machine reference and what does this word mean parsimonious?

You should have seen the post about a month ago about the 9-11 conspiracy.

parsimonious \par-suh-MOH-nee-uhs\, adjective:
Sparing in expenditure; frugal to excess.

Had to look that one up did ya?  ;)

How come the Old Testament God is portrayed as being mean(telling Abe to sacrifice is son, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) while the New Testament's Jesus as the Savior Messiah? Maybe the fish in your fish tank ask the same questions about YOU?

You d#mn right :D

Ummm this thread.....why?  :-\

It's to start a debate, Not sure why but ahve fun I guess. These types of debates do absolutley nothing but drive people apart.

 Not me I have fun :-*

If that does not get you fired up then your wood is wet. good stuff

I can speak from the experience of being in Jerusalem thanks to Uncle Sam  and seeing the evidence first hand has made my desicion more enhanced. It is overwhelming to touch the history and not be able to believe if it were not for that Id would more than likely still be a non believer. "Fish"  I  do care for you and your eternity and if you believe that there is not a GOD in Heaven then hell is your eternal destiny, sorry to be so blunt, I am not judging you, please see that this is said in a caring manner and not to belittle you in any fashion. I would say for the sake of the discussion if you are right then nothing is lost. If people lived life how the Bible said to live life then we would live in a perfect world or at least make this fallen world a little better place. because you are literally betting your eternity that you are right,  at least investigate what the Bible says with an open mind. I can tell you where I was prior to knowing Christ and where I am now and you'd never know I was that rotten. It takes reflecting on who I was every now and then to keep me in check from time to time.  If you'd truely like to know PM me or call me and I'll share it with you. I am by no means perfect in my walk with Christ and never will be that is where Gods mercy and Grace come into play. Unfortunately many who believe do take Gods mercy and Grace for granted and never really evolve/mature in the walk with Christ they unfortunately give other Christians a bad repore. For instance Look at the Preachers, Pastors and other men of God who fall into the likes of sin. Of course the media is right there to exloit their fall.  As unfortunate as it is Sin affects everyone because we give way to the fleshly desires rather than the things of spirit.  If you will allow me recomend a few books. The first is by Josh McDowell called "Evidence that demands a verdict" It is my understanding that Josh wrote it as antheist trying to disprove the Bible but through his investigations, proved himself wrong and the Word of God correct. The next one is by Lee Strobel called "The case for Christ" He too was an atheist at one time and put on trial the life of Jesus and His claim to being the only redemption of sins. It is an excellent book that is written in a very non confronting form that has tons of proof of Jesus' life and claim to being The Son of God. Josh McDowell has another book out to called "More than a Carpenter. The spirit of God wil get ahold of you when you read these and hopefully answer the questions you have outside of this forum.


The Old testiment was under the Law of God. The New testiment being after the death,and resurrection of Jesus is under Grace.

Actually this post was not made for a debate.  This is a question that I was looking for answers for.  That's why I have not responded to some of the comments, because I'm all about love baby no hate here.  Please no debate on this thread maybe we ALL will learn something.

Now, my next post about abortion that will be a debate  ;D.

  I know what in and to mean but what does Sparing,expenditure,frugal and excess mean?

Thats great, I love it Keith.

Did not read any post past the subject  matter.  Yes, it is NOT DEBATABLE.  God does exist.  Period.  There is not need for proof, no need for extra words.  God is existence.

Well it's settled then god does exist, wow  :d

You learn fast fish...never question a woman. ;)

In my opinion this type of thread doesn't belong on this site.

 I, in most cases would agree with you TRX but in this case I think Fish did not intend to start an issue but was seaking answer's and there are several members on this site that are knowlegable in his quest. Fish i hope you find the answer you are looking for.

Swamp

Wait that was a WOMAN , then it is not settled.  I can't take the word of a woman  ;D.

 :X

There's no god, unless you believe in a fairy tales. I believe in science and science over rules what the bible say's. If you believe in that stuff, I got your respect and I hope you respect mine. ::)

Chuck Norris, good post I can't believe I mist it earlier.  I may even try one of those books because inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks for all the anwers guys I appreciate your efforts.  

 There is nothing wrong with a good debate TRX then hopefully all sides of an issue will walk away with just a little bit more of an understanding of the other sides thought.  But this post was not meant to be a debate, it was just a question.  Thanks

  Careful trx#9 they may take the target off my back and plant it on yours, good luck.

I know.  ;)

there is no god.

It's like this.  You have a little boy who is riding his bike- and you have taught him all the rules.  Don't go in the street, ride with a helmet, stay on the sidewalk......of course the little boy promises you he will do it all and be careful.  One day, while you are watching the little boy ride his bike- he is not paying attention and rides out on to the street.  A car is comming and it just misses your little boy!  He is pretty shaken up, and pretty scared!  Your heart is pounding, and your little boy is crying.  You sit there and think "this could have been a really bad accident"....my boy could have been killed"!  

Your little boy could not have learned a better lesson.  You see, your little boy will only learn what is right and wrong in life if he learns by his mistakes, life lessons are learned this way.  You could him tell him a thousand times to be careful, but we are all humans and we learn by our mistakes and by the mistakes of others.

God is trying to teach US, by our mistakes, the mistakes of others.  If we did not suffer, then how are we ever to learn?  

These are good videos that show how science does not prove the bible wrong.  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5056470106006523967&q=kent+hovind if more do not show up on the right search for Kent Hovin

Hmmmmm,comparing god to fairy tales? I can see where you respect our beliefs.NOT!!!!

Thrasher you suprise me...Where is your proof? Why is it our burden to prove God exist?

   The non believers should shoulder some of the burden to prove there is no God. This is the best I can do on my end...

   Whenever this question comes up, I am always reminded of Thomas in the Bible who would not believe that Jesus was alive until he could touch Him. That is the same analogy many people use today when it comes to answering the question “Is there any proof that God exists?” They want physical proof for something that must be taken on faith value.

It takes greater faith to believe that an unseen God exists than it does to just dismiss Him because you cannot physically confirm that He is there. For those who deal in evidence there is proof all around you and inside of you that God does exist.

Is there any proof that God exists? Take a good look around. When most people look at the world around them, they see only the trees; they do not see the forest that is there. It should be obvious that God exists because of His creation, not only us humans, but the world we live in, the galaxy that world is in, and the universe that the galaxy is in.

Our universe contains too much order for our existence to have been created out of chaos. We are complex beyond our imaginations and when you look at such a complexity, you see God and His creation.

Is there any proof that God exists? Take a good look inside yourself. Most people fail to look inside themselves for God. Instead, they look to their surroundings and conclude that since the world is such a mess, God must not be there, if He ever existed at all. They forget that since God created us, we bear His fingerprints and those fingerprints point to His existence.

First, we are all born with an innate knowledge of what is right and wrong. Even a young child knows that when they misbehave they are doing something that goes against their parents’ wishes. The knowledge of good and evil comes from God. It was put there to keep us in balance and to allow us to understand why we need to come to God for forgiveness.

Second, we have a desire to seek love. Our whole life is spent trying to fill a gap that exists in our souls; a gap that only be filled by the love of God. No matter what we do to try and fill this gap -- money drugs, alcohol, sex, possessions -- the hole will never be filled until we turn back to God and accept His Son as our Savior and Lord.

These are only two of the inward feelings that should tell us that we are more than just some random mistake of nature; that we are created, that a real God that created us, and that He is still there watching over us.

Is there any proof that God exists? Take a good look at His Son, Jesus Christ. All we need to do is take a good look at the life of Jesus to see that He was a man, but more than a man, He was God. When was the last time you saw a man walk on water, calm a storm, or make a man rise from the dead? Even Jesus Himself conquered death and rose again to ascend to Heaven.

Think about the impact that Jesus has had on this world from the very moment of His birth; the way His life, death and resurrection have shaped world history, changed lives, and healed souls. No mere man could do this so we must say as the Roman soldier did at His crucifixion, “Surely this is the Son of God.”

Philosophy says that our existence is based on that which we perceive existence to be. It is even suggested that maybe we do not exist as we think we do here, but on a different plane of reasoning not yet known to us. As God’s creation, we know God is real; all we have to do is take a good look.

Read this one, ][email] (http://[email)www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/religion_and_science.html Isn't kent hovin a preacher?

I'm not going to bite anymore.I thought this was an antagonizing topic when it was posted and it has been beat to death on this site. I know what the truth is and that's all that matters to me. If some people think this topic "Does God exist" was started not as a debate but as somebody soul searching than you got taken. Feel free to get suckered in by people just trying to rattle a few cages if you like but I refuse to help keep this post alive. GOD RULES.

I guess I got taken!! Its' ok I gave the benefit of the doubt that someone was thirsty.

Mudnuri, we finally we agree on something. wow :-[

Dr. Kent Hovin was a teacher for 15 years and taught Biology, Anatomy, Physical Science, Mathematics, Earth Science, and other sciences. He is now an evangelist that lectures on this topic and also has a ministry and theme park/museum in Pensacola.

Swamp and Chuck,  I am completely impressed with what you two wrote and now have a profound respect for both of you.  Unfortunately not all the seeds you plant fall on good soil.

I really wish I was more educated in the bible. I am a strong believe and try to live right, but I do not have enough knowledge in the bible. Scott and Bill, you 2 are true believers who stand up for what's right.

when it is your time to believe in GOD, you will believe. i still wonder why GOD lets all the bad things happen around the world????????? and i still believe. believeing in GOD and eternal life is just like retirement, you save and save and invest and save in hope that when you retire you will reap the rewards for all your hard work...........but what if you die before you retire? all that work and wasted money for nothing! but you still save just incase so you can have everything you want. FAITH IS FREE so im saving it in hopes that when i die i will be in heaven instead of a pine box 6 feet deep.

                                                                                  thanks JESUS
                                                                                  Shawn

so you do believe?

Well said, if you want to believe that nonsense ok by me free country. But note: that your taking words out of some book (bible) . Does a book means something is true? Did you check out my link above, how can you agrue that. Another thing about the bible that you didn't know is that scientist  have taken hair sample from many different mummy's from that era and ALL of them came back postive for early day drugs far more stronger than todays drugs,  opium or herion was the favorite and opium grows wild in that area of the world. Maybe thats why they thought jesus walk on water, or maybe he's a past day magician like david blain. :J All I ask is to keep a open mind, and please don't try to kill me. A lot of  religions people scare me :S  

[  I'm sorry you feel this way but the question was just that a question, it was not meant to "rattle a few cages".  I think by reading all the post on this thread that is was a good question with good answers from alot of different members.   Was it the answers I was hoping to see, no but it was the answers I expected and a little more.  And one more thing I'm really not soul searching but if I heard a definitive answer I would have been pleased.  

I want to start by saying that I believe that God exsist.  It would be wrong of me to not express that.

I do not go around pushing my belief on others however.  I try to live my life right and that brings me joy.  That sometimes causes others to ask what makes me happy.

From the beginning of time man has looked to the heavens for a higher power.  I have faith that the god that I worship and follow is the true God.  That is my feeling and will never be changed.  

The only thing that I have to say for those of you who do not believe that God exist failed the test.  What I mean by that is, just acknowledging the word "God" shows that there is some belief.  

Well said.

 If there was a point to this thread it is now lost!! No one is being condemned for not believing in God, only giving points to support our belief.

    Ask yourself one question...if a 100 years ago there was no belief in the Lord do you really think we would be here today? The Bible tells us about our creator and the stories that lead up to our salvation. The world is a better place because of "the fear of God" and that one thing may keep some people from doing bad things. Can you imagine a World without God?? I cant.

Isnt the title to this thread an oxymoron? :-\ Asking for someones opinion yet when a different opinion arouses it turns into a debate.  ???

Debate:
1 To consider something; deliberate.
2 To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.

No matter what it was intended to be. They all turn out the same. I don't even read the posts.

  OOHHHH NOW YOU WANT TO BRING SANTA AND THE EASTER BUNNY INTO THIS???? OK THE GLOVES ARE OFF!!!
   Again read my post, no one is pointing fingers only voicing opinion and belief. i do however agree with most of this post.

     But leave Santa and Fur ball out of this....or else :lecture.gif

It takes someone with the intestinal fortitude to step up and say I believe instead of coward behind inconsitencies.You can not disprove the Bible many have tried.
 Each time that we have raced or ridden in groups someone has always taken the oppurtunity to start the race/ride in prayer. I would initiate the prayer at Saltsdale when I was there and was quite truthfully overwhelmed by the acceptance. there are alot of great folks on this site. it is unfortunate that the efforts towards disproving the presence of God have become more aggresive just so that we can live any way we see fit without consideration For Gods word  

I usually dont go here, but, in this case I would like to interject something!  
I do believe there is a God!  I do believe there was an unbelievable man named Jesus Christ that walked this Earth!  I also believe that the Bible was written by man!  Men like us!  With hearts of love and hate, with good and bad intentions, with faith and doubt, and all with Sin!  But the one thing that for some reason I continue to bet the farm on is this-  theres no way that something such as the universe we live in and the direct complexity of it all was an accident!  Is there a God? Every person in the world believes in God!  It might not be my God or anyone elses God.  The reason and cause for our existence is God!  I think the more complex question is not whether he exist but,  Who is God or What is God!  To some God may be mother nature. To some God may be evolution.  But make no mistake,  whoever or whatever God is, God is the reason we are here.  The Bible teaches alot of things.  And people get wrapped up in debates of the Bibles validity.  The people that try to disprove the Bible and the people that try to validate the Bible are so busy doing so that they miss the most powerful message-  Love each other and do the right thing!!!!!  How can anyone argue the Bibles message!?  Who cares if it was a white dove or a grey dove!  Who cares if it was a river or a creek!  Who cares if it was the north or south star!  If someone wrote an article about me beating John Natalie, Joe Byrd, Doug Gust, Tim Farr, etc;  at the nationals, and said my bike was Blue when my bike is red- WHO CARES!  THE MESSAGE IS THAT IM THE FASTEST RIDER IN THE WORLD!!!   ;D  I kinda had to interject that!!  Im starting to ramble, so Im out!!!!!    8)

And if you want to debate, dont!  Id rather just fist fight!!!!! :box.gif

jt

I am pretty sure that is one for the YES team

Good Point RTR

It is definately a Yes!  Just trying to say that my God is probably differant than everyone elses.  But hes my God, nonetheless! ;D

And Yes, I will be your friend!!  Call me!  My number is 800-I-LOVE-YOU!! ;D

  
It takes someone with the intestinal fortitude to step up and say I believe instead of coward behind inconsitencies.You can not disprove the Bible many have tried.
 [/quote] WRONG !!!

WRONG !!!
[/quote]

Oh, Well then I guess that settles it.  ;D

Oh, Well then I guess that settles it.  ;D
[/quote]

I think you meant to say testicular fortitude.  Intestinal fortitude sounds like you have a chronic gas problem.

I honestly can't see the point of living if there is no God, no heaven, no reason to love and help people, to try and be good people.  What would be the point of that with out God?  Chalk up another for the side that believes in God and his Son, the only way to eternal salvation.  I wish all of you that say you don't believe would just reconsider, it's stupid for me to ask I know, but it's the best decision you'll ever make or the worst mistake you'll ever make, and you only get one chance (one lifetime) to make it.

I think you meant to say testicular fortitude.  Intestinal fortitude sounds like you have a chronic gas problem.
[/quote] Did you smell that through your PC sorry!    Factual proof already has been done by scientist and archaeology but you guys don't want to here it, Like your deaf or something

It has taken a long time to get where I am at today and I still thirst for more knowledge. there is always something new to learn. I turned my life over to Christ march 29th of 2000. on the verge of loosing everything. I have since been blessed many folds. Seek and you will find
The Truth will set you free, it has for me

intestinal fortitude = the guts to stand up for what is right

Well,....Ok then.

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I do believe religion does good for some people  I just wish people would explore other idea's too, isn't great that we can have this kind of debate and not worry about being arrested or hung. A least we still have freedom of speech for now.  peace!!!!!!!!

Obviously, you've never seen WALKER TEXAS RANGER!  You just don't UNDERSTAND Chuck Norris. God will SMOTE THEE!

your are mistaken, anyone here who knows me in person can atest to my demeanor , hostility is not in my nature. but truth be know a coward has no guts

Now you mess with my Family and you'll not find me to be as nice a fella. My co-workers will attest to that when the school system lost my youngst son

He knew this day would come.

Matthew 24 /3-15

 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

That quote sounds familiar...and I know it's too long for a bumper sticker...what's it from?

You sure about the hangin part?? I understand there are a bunch of sheets someplace with holes in them :D

hey fish if you want to know read the book of revelations it talks about all the things in life that are happening today in the world and was wrote 2000 yrs ago.if theirs no god explain how babies are made a chemisty kit and some baby batter.if you really want to know the best way to make up your mind is just go to church one day and listen.if its not for you then gods not going to twist your arm to come back.and whoever said this topic should not have been posted on this site--your wrong you should always try to make god apart of your everyday life whether the people around you like it or not and the bible teaches you to talk about god in a open manner and not be ashamed of him.just my .02

I have explored the other ideas, trust me when I tell you my experience was not fun.

DANG YOU SWAMP!
When I took that picture of you, I told you that it was our special little picture.  So dont show everyone!!

You seem very educated on the book of Revelation...just out of curiosity, who authored it?  Surely you wouldn't site a reference that you can't attribute definitive authorship to.

Don't worry, I've scoured the internet to find definitive proof that God exists. I found a an objective, accurate, and honest news source from which to gather my information....

                                      http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28151

your are mistaken, anyone here who knows me in person can atest to my demeanor , hostility is not in my nature. but truth be know a coward has no guts

Now you mess with my Family and you'll not find me to be as nice a fella. My co-workers will attest to that when the school system lost my youngst son
[/quote]
[/quote]
you are entitled to your opinon. I dont always rubb people the right way. and some dont like me for who I am. I am ok with that. I am secure in life that I dont need to hold someones hand or dwell upon anothers though process without having one of my own. It is called character and personality. We'll hook up in person someday then you can decide. sitting behind a computer gives us both a hanicap.  I think a wise fella once said"I would rather be hated for who I am the loved for who I am not."  

[/quote]
you are entitled to your opinon. I dont always rubb people the right way. and some dont like me for who I am. I am ok with that. I am secure in life that I dont need to hold someones hand or dwell upon anothers though process without having one of my own. It is called character and personality. We'll hook up in person someday then you can decide. sitting behind a computer gives us both a hanicap.  I think a wise fella once said"I would rather be hated for who I am the loved for who I am not."  
[/quote]

Obviously you can tell I strongly agree with that quote considering its been in my sig for over a year and is not moving.

 It feels great thought reading all this and knowing that I have accepted Christ and do not have to worry about where I will go. I don't know how someone could live there life and not be sure where they will spend eternity. I pray for the lost souls on this website and Im sure they will or atleast want to respond and tell me not to pray for them, but I will. GOD BLESS you all!

In the Book of Revelation, the author identifies himself as John, whereas in the Gospel of John and the Johannine letters there is no such self-identification:  the John who wrote the Book of Revelation did not identify himself as the one whom Jesus loved, the one who leaned back on Jesus' breast, or as an eyewitness and hearer of the Lord, as one would expect John the apostle to have done. Dionysius speculated that the author could have been John Mark.

One day a 6 year old girl was sitting in a classroom. The teacher was going to explain evolution to the children. The teacher asked a little boy:

TEACHER : Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY : Yes.
TEACHER : Tommy, do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY : Yes.
TEACHER : Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
TOMMY : Okay.(He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.
TEACHER : Did you see God?
TOMMY : No.
TEACHER : That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. He doesn't exist.

A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions.
The teacher agreed and the little girl asked the boy :
LITTLE GIRL : Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY : Yes.
LITTLE GIRL : Tommy, do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY : Yesssssssss (getting tired of the questions by this time).
LITTLE GIRL : Did you see the sky?
TOMMY : Yessssssssss.
LITTLE GIRL : Tommy, do you see the teacher?
TOMMY : Yes.
LITTLE GIRL : Do you see her brain?
TOMMY : No.
LITTLE GIRL : Then according to what we were taught today in school, she must not have one!!!

I love that one. I just dont get how people dont believe. I was fortunate enough to be raised with religion and thank the lord i embraced it. I have done bad things that were not very christian but never once did i lose my faith. Rough times are so much easier with the lord in your life.

"In the Book of Revelation, the author identifies himself as John, whereas in the Gospel of John and the Johannine letters there is no such self-identification:  the John who wrote the Book of Revelation did not identify himself as the one whom Jesus loved, the one who leaned back on Jesus' breast, or as an eyewitness and hearer of the Lord, as one would expect John the apostle to have done. Dionysius speculated that the author could have been John Mark."   - Chuck Norris

So, if it's not John, son of Zebedde, (that's the apostle for you non bible fans), and it's not John Mark, then who is it?

Of course, since John was a prisoner, that could account for the different style of Revalation from say his 3 epistles, or the gospel, if he did write the book in prison, ya know since it's supposedly a vision.

Point being, I don't think we should take sources of questionable authorship as fact.

Peace be with you!


 

That what FAITH is for. We have faith that this book is the truth. We have faith that the lord is our saviour. We have faith we are going to heaven. We could be wrong. We might be right. But faith keeps us alive and full of hope and love.

Yeah, but there's a huge difference between faith and fact.

Not that I would doubt your faith, I truly believe that you believe.

I just prefer facts.

sound to me your trying to question the bible.if you say you believe in god then why are you questioning what been written in his book?

I never said I believed in God...

I'm what you would label an agnostic.

I personally believe an agnostic is someone who is an atheist but doesn't want to say they are just incase they are wrong.

the best fact you'll ever get is when you die--judgement day is just around the corner It's real hard to change you mind when that day come and it's too late .all I know if I'm wrong then atleast I had something in life to make me feel good and want to do better.

It is written in the book of James, A double minded man has no peace the believet know that fact states if you deny Christ he will deny you on that day. The worst words you'll want to hear are
"DEPART FROM ME FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU"

thats a load of horse crap.....just because I say the word doesn't mean I have any shred of belief.....I do not believe, never have and never will....do not tell me what i do or do not believe in.

the unfortunate part of all this, is when i get into these debates with people....it seems I have to defend my choices way, way harder than those who do believe....pretty sad that those who do believe cannot resepect the thoughts of those of us who do not....(as in quit shoving it in my face)


this crap doesnt even  belong on this website....this site is about ATV riding......not preaching or religion....i don't need to be subjected to this crap.

keep yer religion to yourself.

I made a mistake and read the posts...  Thank God I am going to go ride for the weekend, maybe this train wreck will be gone when I return.

Thanks for the replies, I think this subject has run its course  :W

Ok, I moved this to the moderators forum but decided to move it back.

This is simply a discussion whether you believe in god or not doesn't matter. Thrasher and I are very good friends although we have TOTALLY different views on this subject I'm not going to stop being his friend because of it. ( By the way Doug, I can't make it to dinner tonight, I'll call you some other time ::) )
I'll get with the other mods and see what they think we should do here. I say let it ride because it's simply peoples opinions.

 Mike I am getting one of these made for you and the other MODS>

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That was awesome...I liked that .

I think I have the choice to follow whatever path I choose to lead , I have to work on having faith in myself and being a better person. I do not deny the existence of a God...I am not sure there is a firey pit of Damnation. I have problems when people do not express how they feel from the heart NOT from a book , no disrespect intended but I have trouble with the whole Bible issue. Talk to me like I am a man do not quote from a book. Too many contradictions in religion for me to be 100% convinced.

So I think there is a God  but  we are not on the best of terms right now.

thrasher,TRX450racer,trx9, i read every post and no where did anyone condemn you or anyone else for there beliefs. if you dont like the topic then dont click on it. this is the open discussion section therefore its open for whatever.
those of you that keep complaining about this topic being here have the ability to not read it but you keep clicking on it...........! WHY? let us HOLLY ROLLIN, BIBLE PRAISIN, JESUS FREAKS do what we do and as long as you dont read it IT CAN NOT HURT YOU!  

thrasher, we have been on vacation together and you know what im am like so the above was meant to point out that those that dont want to read it, DONT

Mr. Norris is probably the most level-headed people I have ever met, and also one of the few I would like to have with me if I ever got in a tight spot.  You may interpret his words as hostile, but I do not believe them to be so, and I don't believe I have ever heard a hostile word come out of his mouth.

Id@

except for that time behind the wall :R :M :R

who said that was a tight spot?  It was an easily taken care of situation ;-)

Id@

Wow, this is really wierd...I just went out and did some doughnuts in the back yard, to run the gas out of my fuel line, and I swear...

I can see a vision of the virgin marry in the sand patterns that I threw.

It's like perfect, except you can't see her eyes, nose, mouth, or face........but other than that, it looks exactly like her. My gardner, Jose Luis, agrees.


Wierd timing, eh, considering this being such a popular post as of late.

by the way, one definition of "faith" is:

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

I for one do not need logical proof, I have faith.

and sorry for not having any proof for you Fish, like you asked, but there are many times that I have thought in my life that there had to be a massive intelligence behind what I just witnessed as part of "nature".

Id@

it was a general statement and i should have been more clear on that. i had a recent encounter with someone and it left my blood boiling...they could not accept the fact that i am a nonbeliever and felt compelled that they had to try convert me. I am not going to get into the details here...

but again, i have come across many posts on this board where it does get off topic into a jesus/god discussion.....that cannot be denied.  that is what i am referring too when i feel like it's being tossed in my face.....


here a couple of questions:
Why do the believers have a such a hard time with the non-believers in their feelings?
why do i have to be wrong and them right, when actually no one can prove either? (don't tell me because the bible sez so, lots of books say lots of things)
why do they feel they need to try and convert someone whether or not they want to be converted?
in the end...what does it matter to anyone else what I do/do not believe in?


I only ask these questions, because it seems to happen over and over again.

I personally don't care what ones religion is....whatever one wants to do, more power to ya...i ain't gonna stop ya, convert ya or try to tell you that you are wrong or anything like that....

here a couple of questions:
Why do the believers have a such a hard time with the non-believers in their feelings?
why do i have to be wrong and them right, when actually no one can prove either? (don't tell me because the bible sez so, lots of books say lots of things)
why do they feel they need to try and convert someone whether or not they want to be converted?
in the end...what does it matter to anyone else what I do/do not believe in?



i dont try to convert anyone! if my lifestyle is appealing to them and they ask, then i will tell, if not then life goes on.
Q #1.  i have no idea
Q#2. thats easy.........we all want to be right
Q#3. they want to try and help a friend get saved. they should stop trying until you show interest or they will just push you away.
Q#4. it doesnt matter to me what you believe in. i will still ride with you and help you in anyway, what better way for me to show GOD that i want to help.

thank you for not attacking me with your reply, as i hope i did not attack you ;)

no attacks at all
.....and i am not pointing the finger at anyone or any one particular instance....it's just general stuff/annoyances...

I think i can answer question 1 for you thrasher, atleast why i have a hard time accepting it. I wish people who didnt believe could feel like i do. Its free and the returns are unbelievable. Now with that being said I do not push my religion on anyone. I have nothing against you not believing I just wish you knew how good it makes things when you do believe.

 :o


GODISNOWHERE


 :o

it is called faith some people need to believe in that there is a better place after this one  after this one let them down. for me i dont believe in any thing i cant see with my own eyes. there are so many arguments out there and so many religions out there without one shread of physical evidence its mind boggling to me so many people can have such strong oppinions with no proof what so ever that any of them exist. but what bothers me the most is these churches making all this non taxable money,tax free property they can set on for years and also if I dont believe in there god and what they tell me that i have to do to go to heaven  or I will burn in hell for not following them.... well I have news for them  I will go where ever I want and when I want to . it kind of reminds of jim jones getting them people to drink the koolaid doesnt it..

Thanks for all the replies people, I think we all were very respectful of the others believes.   :ThumbsUp.gif

nope i dont like you.....because you have a jon boat and I dont!!!! ;)

no debate!!!!! yes he does!!!

Well said, If they tax churches there would not be any out of pocket expense for health care for all Americans. That would be nice.

I believe at some point in all our lives God will show himself to everybody.   What you do with that encounter is up to you, quite frankly none of my business, unless you decide to approach me and desire my input.  We have free will over our feelings, and actions.  As for me and my house we will serve the Lord, for you your business.

At my church my pastor now and again holds up the Bible and Flips through to the Revelations and shows you that everything up to the Revelation has happened already, what makes you think God is going to quit here(meaning the last book of the Bible). If you hold the Bible up and look at how thick the pages are from Genesis through the Book of Jude and then compare them to how thin Revelation is you can get the picture.
If you look at history even  if its just back to the year you were born and see how times have changed and look what our worlds condition is should be an eye opener by itself. I challenge you to look at one thing w/ a little effort of study. Look at the transition of OUR NATION health from the day they announced no more prayer in Public School. America has God on her side ONLY by Grace. We are pushing God out of everything from Prayer in Public to our very own Pledge of Allegiance, and next it will taken off our currency ($$$$). When we decide to outcast God completely of our lives his Grace will be lifted and then all HELL will break loose.
No we should not pressure you into conversion but our job is to plant the seed and let God take over from there. We all will answere for our own lives and decisions in the end so when day comes whether it happen tonight in your sleep or if God allows you to live a long prosperous life and die of natural causes you have heard the truth. They only thing that will send you to hell is your very own denial.
Dont let pride seperate you from eternal life in heaven my friends.
"My name is Jake Barnes and I approve this message" 8) 8)

Oh yeah, one more thing. This thread is only 3 days old and it has 114 post and 873 views.
God works in mysterious ways. You ever notice when the Passion Of Christ movie came out how much money it brought in in such a short time, you ever notice that in the book stores after all these years that the B I B L E  "yes thats the book for me" is still the #1 selling book of all time. ;)

remember this man wrote the bible  not god . your belief is your right thats why we live in this so called free world . so if I have to pay taxes to be free so should churches and anoyhter thing church and politics need to stay seperate every day churches try to tell you what you can and cant do with your life and that is wrong... for instance we use to have a nice little bit of sand dunes to ride on in jacksonville a church got some tax free property next to it . and guess what no more fun for us because they didnt like it.to me your all a bunch of hipocrits because that is all i have ever met at a church

and by the way mel gibson sold those tickets not god........

One thing I keep hearing from the opposition is that "the Bible was written by man". Well science was invented by man. We are going on the fact that they are doing everything right. Everything we live by (measurements) were created by man. So you are just assuming that man is right. You have "faith" in man everyday. Well I believe there is a higher power in this world that had helped man along since the begining of time. So just remember that the Bible was written by man, but so were science books that everyone puts so much faith in. Just a little food for thought.

Sorry you feel the way you do, People are human and no one is perfect, as far as labeling everyone because of a few bad apples only speaks volumes of your maturity and Intelect.
As I previously stated, we will all answere for our own actions and the decisions we made in life.
If you let "hipocrits" make or break your eternal destiny you will be sorry.
And BTW, if a Walmart or a Burger King was to be put on the adjascent property you would still have lost your playground so get over it.

so now im imature , and you are ignorant. I am 42 years old and have raised two wonderful children so believe what you want to and i dont have to get over a damn thing

42 years old and still complaining about paying taxes? Figure you would have it figured out by now.

Yeah churches run the show- government. Some of the most dishonest people I ever met go to church every sunday. "Let the church set you free"  ;)

You are right as well but in the same respect some of the most dishonest people I have ever met dont go to church. Its is a cop out when you  or anyone else pulls out the bad apples in a crowd whether it be in this forumn or in a church. Just like the Media, lets report only the retard soldiers that do bad stuff and not the real heroes saving lives. There are 2 kinds of people in the world, and they are Saved Sinners and unsaved sinners. Going to church does not label anyone as better then you or better than anyone else for that matter, only people trying each day to do better. We all put our pants on the same way.
No need to turn a post into something personal my friends, lets keeps it clean and remember we all joind this forumn because of the love for the same hobby. So how about them Miami Heat! 8)

All I can add, for me it is really saddens me to think that someone don't believe in God, that must be a lonely place to be.  As for me, He has shown Himself to me and I have seen His mercy, His love, and yes I hate suffering, but unfortuanately, we are of the flesh and w/out suffering we don't turn to Him.  It is in our suffering that we grow stronger in our Faith.  He gave us free will and our battles are not of this world, but principablities of good and evil. Just as God & Jesus are very real, so is satan.  He is the master of lies and deceit and he is what cause us to sin, he will tell you lies and you will believe him.  Evil is very real, but so is Jesus.  God loves us so much that He sent is only Son not only to die for us, but to suffer for all of our sins.  As He suffered, more suffering than any human has ever endured, He did it out of true LOVE for me, and you and each and everyone of us.

To those who don't believe, there is not the majic word, the majic touch that will make you believe.  But just as someone once explained it to me, "I may not change your mind, I may not be able to make you believe, but I will be the link in that chain that brings you closer to God and Jesus each and everyday."  See there is not majic moment, it is a journey, but trust me once you get, you will know it.  You will confess your love for Jesus and accept him as your savior.  The sooner the better, but God has a plan for each an everyone of us.  The Holy Spirit will work each and every day, each and every hour, he will simply whisper and sometimes shout, but you will someday hear him and you will someday believe.

I just end with this.  I have seen many miracles in my life.  Yes, I have seen many suffer, but I judge no one and surely don't judge God.  I feel his peace, I feel is love.  I know He is real, just as real as the air that I breath. This is my faith. Though I can't see the air, I know it's there.  Everything is proof of his existance, but you must first open your eyes to see. 

As Jesus said to Thomas, yes Thomas you have seen and touch so now you believe, but the blessed our those you have not seen but still believe.

Psalm 91 

God Bless this room....

go sell crazy somewhere else , we have enough here already

:stoogies.gif  lol'

 Tony and trx,  I have been whiteness to several miracles in reference to healing and answered prayers. My wife and I had lost our first attempt at having as child due to a miscarriage, it was the most painful thing we had ever been through including the loss of my father. I have been whiteness to his answered prayer, see my Father was given 3 months to live and on his deathbed he prayed to God to let him live to see me grown and married. My Father passed away 11 years later, two days after he was best man at my wedding he went into the hospital and died 3 weeks later. That is one miracle you cannot question. The most incredible thing I have witnessed is our 2nd attempt at getting pregnant my wife told me before we even knew, that she felt she was pregnant but it was for the glory of God. We found out she was pregnant a week later. When Colton our new born son was just 5 months old he stopped smiling and laughing in fact he stopped doing just about anything. Colton then started having seizures and we found out at all children's hospital the he had a rare and crippling disease called infantile spasm and it only effects 2 out of every 10,000 births. The prognosis was extremely grim as the told us Colton has a small chance, 4% of these children die, 70% have severe brain damage, 21% need full time care and 5% come out with mild learning disabilities. The dr's told us Colton's brain was atrophied and he would most likely need therapy just to learn to walk brush his teeth ect. Through prayer from thousands of people in this country from one coast to the next including several "crazy" as you have labeled them, people from this site we received a miracle. my wife reminded me that Colton would be fine, she reminded me of her feeling before we knew she was pregnant...that it was for Gods Glory and Colton would be a testament to the mercy of or Lord and how through Jesus and his stripes Colton would be healed. Dr. after Dr. and specialist after specialist no one could explain why this had happened and called it "idiopathic" see no one knew why he was having seizures. Through a prayer list that Colton was on a man from Orlando found my mother and explained that he could help her grand son. This man looked at a photo of Colton and told my mother that the problem was on Colton's left side of his brain, no Dr' had told us this only a man that claimed he had been dead for 5 minuets and after coming back has the gift of healing through Jesus Christ. My mother told me of this man and I dismissed him as a "wacko" looking for money and I was going to stick with the Dr.s, this was on Tuesday. I never told my wife of this man or about what he said. On Wednesday we took Colton to his neurologist in Tampa and when the Dr's sat down he told us they have fount the problem and it was on the left side of his brain...I almost hit the floor and tears welled up just as they are now in my eyes. After leaving the Dr's office I told my wife of the conversation I had with my Mother and she wanted to meet this man names Thom. I called my Mother and the man agreed to drive down free of charge to Sebring to see Colton on that Thursday @ 2:30 pm, From that point on our son Colton has laughed smiled talked and even walks with no therapy no more treatment and no more Dr's he is now 13 months old. Colton is our Angel and to see your son smile and do the things he was never to be able to do warms my heart every day.  I have been blessed with an amazing gift of being able to whiteness for our Lord and tell people of his mercy, I could not let this moment pass with out sharing it with you. I hope this has in some way touched your heart and opened you eyes. God bless you and when God shows himself in your life, embrace it please.

Swamp - I was waiting for you to share your miracle again!

Me..I beleive in God and am very proud of it!!!  Why we too have had several situations that if it weren't for prayers who knows how the situations would have come out. My father has been DOA 2x's in his life: 1st time was a heart attack at work no one knew it even happened, 2nd time he was hit by a drunk driver going the wrong way on the interstate. His arm was almost completely severed - held together by a vein. My father has also had throat cancer and was just feeling better from that when the car accident happened.

Ask me how could I keep the faith when it seemed like nothing good was ever going to happen to dad - I started to loose faith, but kept on praying.  I often said to myself if there is a God why do you let this happen to my dad all the time. It didn't seem fair for one person to have to go through so much pain. The car accident was the last thing that happened to dad - during his recovery he told me "there is a reason I am still here and God isn't ready for me to go yet" dad also said "i have no idea why I am still here-guess I'll find out one day". I joked and told dad it was because I still needed him more than he would ever know (my father is one of my best friends-daddy's little girl even as an adult). In short about a 4-5 mths later I told dad I was pregnant. The day my son was born dad told me "this is the reason I am still here-you guys need me". Needless to say I ended up a single mom and my father is the closest thing to a dad my son has!! I have always been told that the Lord works in mysterious ways - seems like things happened to dad when the family was going through tough times and these situations brought our family together every time. Maybe the lesson we were being taught was not to take family for granted you never know when someone is going to be taken from you!

Do i still question my faith..I will be honest sometimes I do!  Why because I pray all the time nothing more will happen to our family and yet my brother has been recently diagnosed with MS at 31yrs old. I pray every night that each day my brother wakes up this will not be the day he is permanently put in a wheel chair - so far he is he still walking! So do prayers work - I think our family shows they can and do!!

So maybe its not my faith I question as much as its why these things keep happening to my family - because i really beleive pray is what has gotten us through these situations each time! 

Sorry this was so long...I was just trying to show that pray can and does work.

These are some real powerful testimonies. When the lord speaks you do not just listen with your ears. Thanks for sharing.

Those are definately great testimonies. My wife and I share a very similar one w/ the birth of my son.
We went into the hospital w/ the notion that she had another round w/ kidney stones and after several hours of the hospital being confused w/ results that were mixed up w/ another patients paperwork we were told that she was pregnant. The kicker is that they were strongly incouraging her to take some medicine that would help her pass the egg as they said that it considered doomed.
We both immediately agreed that if it were to be a doomed egg that it would be in Gods hands and not the Doctor. You should have seen the look on the Doctors face when I returned to that hospital a year later w/ my son and showed him the differance between his doomed egg and Gods Miracle.
He is 10 years old and other then breaking his leg on his 10th birthday he is as healthy as any kid.
These kind of stories could fill up this forumn really fast if everyone posted their stories and I know that some wish not to believe and that is their perogative.
I have heard many stories about eye witness accounts of angels at work but I have recently got to see one for myself w/ me and my friend riding 4 wheelers together. We were goofing off on my property racing across the field and when we would come close to the end we would back out of the throttle and set up for the turn well after a few times my friend decided he was not going to get beat again and did not back out of the throttle in time. He like a dummy locked up his breaks andturned side ways and Flipped or was thrown from his bike. Now picture this as he was flying through the air about 6 feet off the ground his momentum was in the direct path of a huge oak tree on the corner of the property. By simple laws of physics he by all rights should have hit the tree head on w/ out his bike mind you. While he was going through the air I was behind him and witness his body take a curve ball fade to the left side of the tee. It was so shocking because the first thought in my mind was OH Crap.
Someone call and ambulance. Then the next thing you know he was picking him self up off the ground and never touched the tree. The only thing that could have pushed him left was an Angel because there was no wind blowing my friend.I ask him how and the world did he not hit the tree and he was in total shock and checking his pants.
Well there could be many more to tell but I will shut up now. Good to see and read/hear the above testimonies and Thank God that he still works in so many ways. 8)

I'm glad everything work out fine in your storys, they were all amazing recoverys. Things like this happen all the time though. In my opinion prayer gives confidence in some people and thats all they need sometimes, positive thinking works for instance if you are positive about an interview you'll do better than feeling negitive about it. Same thing with sickness too. There's a lot of miracles that happen without prayer, probably just has many or more. To think thats there's a person (Jesus or god) sitting on a cloud, sky or what ever answer prayers to 6 billion people on earth is crazy. The chances of this happening are slim to none your number on your ticket might say 2,867,256,806. They just had a story on this on fox news about a survey that was done about the power of prayer, the survey showed that prayer didn't live up to the hype and showed no real benefits to there cause. You can read about this on the website fox 13 don't no the actual web address or if its still on there you can try if you want. Its funny how religious people always claim anything great that happens is a miracle from god and when things go bad you don't here anything from them. I recall about 5 years ago a outbreak of tornado's in alabama one hit a church were people were at sunday mass, 12 died and many were severely injured. That was in a house of god, I guess he was tired serving 6 billon people. :Z   

You know what, your right, what was I thinkng anyway. Its a hole lot easier to think that I was part of the evolution that started from some parasite then grew into a minow then turned into a snake and later grew arms and legs, then some how decided it was time to turn into a dinosour but along the way not all of us became dinosours and some became monkeys and found their way to be cavemen who then decided to kill off all the dinosours and after dragging my cavewomen around by her hair all day decided I'd get an education and become Donald Trump and build huge buildings every where so the whole world can see how wealthy I became after I got tired of carrying my old lady around.
Thanks to you for helping me see that there just is no such thing as God and Prayer. Slap me silly for being so ignorant all this time. As you are descending into hell for your decision to reject Christ please remember that you had the choice before it ever came to this."Dear God, help them, send someone there way that can show them the way before its too late
Contrary to some popular belief, no one has ever been kicked out of Hell for Peddleing Ice Water or for trying to take over.
Well its been fun thus far, ttyl

Does love exist? Can't see it, can't smell it, can't touch it. I guess it doesn't exist. Oh wait you can see how it affects us.
Does wind exist? Can't see it, can't smell it, can't touch it. I guess it doesn't exist. Oh wait you can see how it affect everything around it.
Does hate exist? Can't see it, can't smell it, can't touch it. I guess it doesn't exist. Oh wait, how it affects us all.

Does GOD exist? Can't see him, can't place your hands where the spear pierced his side, easy to dismiss as we attempt to place him in our human understanding.  As I posted before he will touch each and every one of us at some point in our lives, you won't see him, or touch him, but I guarantee you you will know he is there.

Bad things can and do happen to people of Faith, God has given us free will and sorrow and pain will occur, and we might not understand why, and feel GOD is not present with us at those times. Oh no, feelings no scientific reason for there being, I guess they don't exist.

Live, Love and laugh often. Life is a gift, cherish every day and every smile.  Gods greatest gifts are Faith, Hope and Love. And the greatest of these is Love.  Can't see 'em, can't touch 'em, Hope to get to share all of them with as many of you as possible.  See you on the trail and in the mud.  The Polaris is always ready for tow duty, or sometimes in need to be towed.

May God Bless Us All!!!   Jeff and Family

:Clap.gif  :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :Clap.gif


well said!!

:ThumbsUp.gif :Clap.gif

With American turning  its back on GOD how else would you explain the moral errosion of our great country. We are heading towards a modern day Soddom and Gamora

Soddom and Gamora?....Take it easy

He said SODDOM not SODOMY ;D Dont get exited Dirt.

Sorry trx9 i was out of town last night and missed all the excitement. no matter what we say or how we say it, according to all these so called christians, we're going to hell cause we are bad people for having our opinions.  and another thing, there is more proof we came from evolution  than there is that we came from adam and eve.  By the way, if there were adam and eve and they had two sons, where did everyone else come from....  sounds like a little insest going on there

    Actually I never said or even implied you or anyone else is going to Hell.  No person Christian or otherwise has the right to pass judgement on the state of your salvation.  And as far as that goes, I AM a Christian not a so called Christian.
    Now lets address your statement that there is far more scientific proof supporting evolution over creationism, is nothing more than completely without merit.   Evolution is based solely on the theories of Charles Darwin.  Darwin was not a scientist, had only one advanced degree which was a BA in Theology, yes Theology.  Darwin recanted his position on evolution as he stated in his original papers that unless multitudes of transitional species were found, his work had to be considered flawed and false, to date NO transitional species have ever been discovered, not 10, not 1, NONE.  It seems some have latched on where Darwin bailed off, with or without any basis.    Yet current DNA studies seem to show that all DNA strings point back to a single maternal beginning. HMMM. 
     Yes I feel qualified to expound on these subjects, I hold Degrees in Theology and Divinity and am an Ordained Minister, and researched heavily on the Patriarcal Church and Creationism vs Evolution in my studies.   I am happy to discuss any subject in this realm in a open honest manner.  I don't believe you see myself, Chuck or Dreth looking down on anyone, or attempting to comment on yours or anyones state of salvation.   Looking forward to riding with all of you.        Yours in Christ,  Jeff+

It is the belief of people who are saved that people who are not will never truely participate in the joy that comes with being saved, the everyday miracles that are noticed by a believer are what gives them the eyes and ears to notice a non-believer and try to turn them towards their way of life.

Please don't try to hold it against believers for trying to "convert" someone when they find out how wonderful they feel on the "saved" side.

Ask youreself this, how many times have you tried to get a friend who doesn't ride to go riding with you?  It's the same concept,,,,,you know about something wonderful(riding) and they don't yet so you want to show them how great it can be.

Id@

So his work was flawed and false, like the bible.

Nice Id@  very well put sir!!! :Clap.gif

OK, lets talk about reliability and authenticity of literature.   People in general think most philisophical lituature is accurate and authentic ie: Plato, etc.  Yet by commonly used standards used by researchers (scientists) the most reliable and accurate book is the Bible.   As I am sure you know the Bible is a copulation of many books comprising the basis, history. theology and mores of the Judeo Christian ethic and civilization of the 5000 or so years.  Secular writings of the time consistantly co-oberate Biblical parallel books.   Now after the time of Christ, (sidenote: Christ never promised us a book, only a church, he never left us any writtten material, we are told of writings in the sand only, it is the Church which gives us the inspired book through authority bestowed upon the Church by Christ with the guidance of the Holy Spirit)  literally thousands of writings were present to the early believers, the New Testament as we know it started to take shape in the second and third centuries with the Canon being set at the Third Council of Hippo in 363ad and affirmed at the Third Council of Cartage in 397 ad.  The Church also commissioned St. Jerome during this period to translate the Greek Old Testament and closed Canon of the New Testament in the Latin Vulgate, as this was the universal language of the time(much like English is used in all flight towers).
So if you wish to discount Biblical authority and authenticity it is your perogative, if you wish to look at it as a fictional account of men, again go for it.  I will tell you, if you ever decide to venture toward honestly reading and investigating what it has to say, be careful, it has the propensity to draw you in to investigate more deeply.
   Many try to discredit biblical teaching by taking small snipits or phrases out of context or out of the literary style they were written. Apocalyptic Wrirtings such as Daniel, Revelations were written in literary code so to speak, as the secular humanist society of the times would persecute, torture or kill openly Christian persons of the period.  The Bible is a big picture book.(That picture being salvation history)

In the desire to not make this any more of a debate, this is my last post for this thread.   God Bless and may your bike run cool, the mud be deep and the tabletops be cleared easily.     Yours in Christ, Jeff+

www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/religion_and_science.html (http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/religion_and_science.html) Can't debate this anyway!

religion is a belief, riding is an activity ..... u cannot make comparisons like that.....

     His position. Daniel said, "The Most High rules in the kingdom of men" (Da 4:17 NKJV). That's God's answer to frightening headlines and fear-filled hearts. A late-night TV comedian recently said: "Tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, and now the Avian Flu. Maybe this isn't such a good time to be trying to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance." If God is not in control - who is? The President? The Prime Minister? Nice folks, and no doubt well intentioned, but not good enough if you enjoy the idea of sleeping peacefully in your bed at night. The Psalmist said, "My help cometh from the Lord" (Ps 121:2). Think: if He's Lord over every circumstance, and if He's promised to help us when we call on Him, what do we have to worry about?
      You say, "What about terrorism? The Middle East?" No problem. God had it all on the drawing board before a shot was fired. God moves men and nations like we move pawns in a chess game. Look at modern day Israel. God promised 3,000 years ago: "I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them...never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the Lord your God" (Amos 9:14-15 NIV). Still think God's not running the show? He's God, and He's in charge. And one more thing you need to know: "At the Name of Jesus every knee should bow...and...every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Php 2:10-11

Chuck_Norris, if the bible is true, I do believe it is, then wouldn't this open discussion amongst all of us be part of his plan as well. If this long discussion, which was really started by a non-believer (yet) could bring one person into his kingdom, than mission accomplished. He works in mysterious ways. I was told in my Christian Walk that you need to question the writings of the bible, investigate, read into the writings, be churched and do not accept the writings just because someone tells you its true. It is a journey, and like all journeys you are going to have good times and not so good times. Its a journey and like all journeys it begins with one step. One single step. You do not just sit at the right side of the Father because soemone told you its so. You have to start the journey one step at a time. I enjoy reading the New Testament. One of my favorites is the book of James.  It taught me how to tame my tongue, I use these different books of the bible as a guide book if you will. There is nothing wrong with that. I am still a sinner as well. We all are, I just hope and pray that when my time comes he will let me allow me into his Kingdom. Have a blessed day, it won't hurt.         

BIBLE=basic instructions before leaving earth.

So this thread has become a recruiting crusade and soap box for believers?



I know Swamp Donkey...I know...lol

wait until you see the pulpit I am building @ RR  ;D and yes you can come  lol

My closing statement as already state my DRETH I share his thoughts
VFORCE your are correct, in the journeys. It has its challenges and itis full of enlightenment with each hill and valley

Q#4. it doesnt matter to me what you believe in. i will still ride with you and help you in anyway, what better way for me to show GOD that i want to help.
thank you for not attacking me with your reply, as i hope i did not attack you

If this topic was worded Is Honda better then Suzuki or someting like that it would have still yielded debate and everyone know what a religeous topic would bring forth. Personally I think the person who started this was clever and did not even know it. Plenty has been said and the truth has been spoken. One thing we all agree on is that we love 4 wheel"N", we all have differant ideas and opinions on every subject of life so as long as no one has been offended and I opologize if anything I have posted came across that way we can live on and love life.
Thanks to all of you who have participated in this topic thus far as it was educational for me at the very least.
See ya in the forest brothers and sister. WoooooooHoooooo 8)

Boy, have I been missing out on some action! ;D
So Darwin wasn't a scientist. Big deal. Did all these people who contributed to the bible have a degree?  Don't think so.  Wasn't Jesus a carpenter?  What kind of degree did he posess?  And you expect to find transitional species in 100-150 yrs? I don't think anything could evolve into a new species in that short of a time.  No I can't see air, and no I can't see god.  Can I prove air is there.  Yes.  Can I prove god is there. NO.  Yea, that illustration supports the possibility, but it proves nothing.  And as far as miracles in prayers being answered.  How many prayers have you made that have been unanswered?  I'm sure it out numbers the ones that have been answered. And Tony Pitts,  incest is the only thing I could come up with as well. Riddle me this Batman,  if Adam and Eve were perfect beings,  how did they F up so bad?  They don't sound too perfect to me. 

WOW READING THIS POST I AM SO MOVED AT HOW MANY QUESTIONS PEOPLE HAVE THAT THEY WANT ANSWERS FOR.I,VE SEEN THE TESTAMONIES FROM CHUCK,DRETH AND(SWAMP I COULD'NT HELP BUT GET EMOTIONAL AT YOURS)I'M GOING TO TRY TO SHED SOME LIGHT ON THE SUBJECT.FIRST OFF FISH IF YOU TRULY WANT TO KNOW IF THERE IS A GOD ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS ASK HIM(ASK AND IT WILL BE GIVEN TO YOU;SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND;KNOCK AND THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED TO YOU.FOR EVERY ONE WHO ASKS RECEIVES;HE WHO SEEKS FINDS;AND HIM WHO KNOCKS,THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED.MATTHEW 7:7-8) IF YOU WANT PROOF JUST LOOK AROUND YOU THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH ARE PROOF OF A DIVINE CREATOR.EVOLUTIONARY THEORY SAYS THAT IF YOU GIVE SOMETHING ENOUGH TIME IT CHANGES TO SOMETHING ELSE ON ITS OWN THATS LIKE SAYING THAT IF YOU LEAVE A PIECE 2X4 IN THE SUN,IN MILLION OR SO YEARS IT WILL TURN INTO A TABLE.WE BOTH KNOW THAT DOSE'NT HAPPEN,THE TABLE HAS TO BE BUILT HENCE CREATED AND THAT DOSE'NT EVEN COMPARE TO HOW COMPLEX THE UNIVERSE IS LET ALONE OUR BODIES.TO ASNWER YOUR OTHER QUESTION ABOUT WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO STARVE.GOD HAS BLESSED THE U.S.A WITH AN ABUNDANCE OF RECOURCES AND ENTRUSTED US TO LEND A HELPING HAND TO OUR NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES BUT WE WOULD RATHER SPEND  MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON OUR HOMES,CARS AND PLEASURES.(JESUS WENT THROUGH ALL THE TOWNS AND VILLAGES,TEACHING AND PREACHING THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM AND HEALING EVERY SICKNESS WHEN HE SAW THE CROWDS HE HAD COMPASSION ON THEM,BECAUSE THEY WERE HARRASSED AND HELPLESS,LIKE SHEEP WITHOUT A SHEPARD THEN HE SAID TO HIS DISCIPLES,THE HARVEST IS PLENTIFUL BUT THE WORKERS ARE FEW.ASK THE LORD OF THE HARVEST,THERFORE, TO SEND OUT WORKERS INTO HIS HARVEST FIELD.MATTHEW 9:35-38) GOD IS NOT SAYING OR AM I THAT IT IS WRONG TO HAVE POSSESIONS BUT IT IS WRONG WHEN WE DON'T CONSIDER OTHERS BETTER THAN OURSELVES.AS TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT PEOPLE WHO SUFFER CANCER .GOD WILL ALLOW SOME EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES IN OUR LIVES TO CAUSE US TO SEEK HIM.GOD LOOKS AT OUR HEARTS. DO WE GET BITTER ABOUT OUR TRIAL WHATEVER IT MAY BE OR DO WE TRUST IN HIM INSPITE OF OUR DIFICULTY.(FOR I KNOW THE THOUGHTS I HAVE TOWARDS YOU PLANS TO PROSPER YOU AND NOT TO HARM YOU PLANS TO GIVE YOU HOPE AND A FUTURE.(JEREMIAH 29:11)AS FOR THE CHILDREN WHO ARE BORN WITH BIRTH DEFECTS JESUS SAID(LET THE LITTLE CHILDREN COME TO ME AND DO NOT HINDER THEM FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BELONGS TO SUCH OF THESE.MATTHEW19:14)AND AS FOR 9:11,THE SUNAMIS,AND EVERY OTHER NATURAL DISASTER THAT HAS HAPPENED THE BILBLE SAYS(FOR HE GIVES SUNLIGHT TO  BOTH EVIL AND GOOD AND SENDS RAIN ON THE JUST AND THE UNJUST,TOO(MATTHEW5:45)NOTHING THAT HAPPENED TO THOSE PEOPLE WAS,NT GOING TO HAPPEN ALREADY THE STATISTICS FOR DEATH ARE TEN OUT OF TEN PEOPLE DIE WEATHER IT BE OF NATURAL DEATH,A CAR ACCIDENT,A STORM, OR SOMEONE FLYING A PLANE INTO SOME BUILDINGS THE BIG QUESTION IS WILL WE BE READY WHEN THIS ULTIMATELY HAPPENS TO US.WE ALL DO HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON WE ALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE THE DECISIONS WE MAKE IN LIFE WILL DETERMINE WERE WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY WE CAN MEET GOD AS A JUDGE OR AS A FREIND. GOD HAS PROVIDED A WAY FOR US TO GO TO HEAVEN HIS NAME IS JESUS. YOU SEE GOD IS JUST JUDGE AND HE MUST JUDGE SIN BUT IN HIS GREAT LOVE FOR US HE PUT ALL OF HIS WRATH AND ALL OF HIS JUDGMENT OF SIN ONTO HIS VERY OWN SON(GOD MADE HIM WHO KNEW NO SIN TO BE SIN FOR US SO THAT IN HIM WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUNESS OF GOD. (2 CORINTHIANS 5:20)(FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD HE SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT WHOMEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERRISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE)(JOHN3:16)WHILE WE STILL HAVE BREATH WE HAVE A CHANCE TO REPENT(TURN)FROM OUR SINS AND PUT OUR TRUST IN CHRIST FOR OUR SALVATION IT IS A FREE INVITATION TO ALL WHO WISHES TO RECIEVE THIS GIFT FROM GOD MY PRAYER IS THAT PEOPLE WOULD CONSIDER THIS BEFORE IT IS TO LATE.(FOR THE SUFFERINGS OF THIS PRESENT TIME ARE NOT WORTHY TO BE COMPARED TO THE GLORY THAT IS TO BE REVEALED TO US.(ROMANS 8:18)  I HOPE I ANSWERD THIS AS I BEST AS I COULD   MAY GOD BLESS YOU AND EVERYONE ON THIS SITE.    RICK.

dude..WTF?.....

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Inyourdraft2000, I was not trying to be clever or sinister or anything else I was just asking a question that has always puzzled me.  I'm very happy about the responces and I thank you guys for being respectful in your opinions.  Thanks  :ThumbsUp.gif

 Fish, you are only allowed to respond to post from now on....no more starting threads, if this were another site I would smite you....Im going to anyway ;D

   Only kidding he we are all brothers and I judge no one....well mayby all those bass-turds against atv's and our freedom. ::) Ill save you a sheet :o

Swamp, even I am surprised at the responce to this thread.  Just goes to show that we can have a good discussion on an atv board.  I promise not to start any more threads  ...............................until next week  ;D. 

So this thread has become a recruiting crusade and soap box for believers?



Actually you may be on to something. All of these self proclaimed athiests or non believers what ever you want to call them keep responding to this thread.Even some who say it doesn't belong here continue to read and reply. Some have legitimate questions while others are obviously responding for schock value. Maybe even a couple that are just out right disrespectful are simply stupid.Maybe some are on the fence and are sincerly looking for answers.What ever category they may fall in it all comes back to curiosity. Could God be working on them? Is this his seed being planted? I think it is. At first I was mad at the lack of respect a few have dealt out even to a man of the cloth but now I invite it because it shows they can't get god out of their minds.Before one accuses me of calling them stupid because they don't believe go back and read again.There are four options.If you fall under that option then so be it. Bottom line something keeps drawing you here.Us believers know whatdraws you here which makes us happy in our hearts so keep responding whether it be negative or not for it only confirms that his work is being done.

Valid Point!  If you see it that way.  I fully agree that it would be inspiring or motivational. 

And the moral of the story here is, no matter who believes what, there will never be seeing eye to eye on any level...we can sit here and agrue this till the end of time, back and forth, point and counter point, this book said this or that happened because so and so said it would...so on and so forth...it infuriates everyone in the end.
just as rooted as you are in your beliefs, others are just as deeply rooted in theirs...some may sway one way or another thru life...others will not....it's just the way it is.
unless suddenly the skies part and 'god' declares that in fact he does exist....those of us who are skeptical will remain that way until the day we die...

Doug, you missed the point, the belief that riding is a wholesome and fun sport is what I was meaning,,,,,,how many times have we seen articles written by some reporter who writes the entire story on the belief that quads are evil dangerous machines.

I was driving through Ohio this morning and listening to the radio and caught the backend of a story about how dangerous quads are and they should not be sold anymore in the state.

Id@

 You can lead a Horse to water but you can not make him drink it. Well we all know what happens when the Horse does not drink the water.
 
" You have to stand for something or you will fall for anything"

 2+2=4 Or does it?
 
 Just because your kindergaden teacher said red was red and blue was blue does that make it so?

 Ever think about the tracking devices they put in your pets are only the beggining of whats to come, and if so you think it might just be the mark of the beast. "here's your sign"

 He who dies w/ the most toys still dies.

Not that Salvation is supposed to be an Insurance policy but it's Ironic how one will insure all their possessions and maybe even by some life insurance but think that their soul is not worth Insuring.

 

I hope that this brings the end of this thread Doug, I personally don't agree with your views on this subject,,,but I hope everyone can put this behind them and realize the truth in your words.

and I'll still ride with you,,,,even if you ride a popo ;-)

Id@

Sorry, I just read a comment about the mark of the beast.  I over heard a fella on the radio going on about how he has only used a TIN(Tax Idetification Number) the past 13 yrs. because the requirement for a SSN (Social Security Number) is listed under 42 USC Section 666 :o  I just looked it up and verified this information.  Now, some of the callers had a few good arguments.  For example,  that would mean that only American Citizens would wear the mark.   ???  I do find this information somewhat disturbing though.    If someone can provide any information  supporting either view, please share.

That is great response!  Only thing is you are still saying This is right and This is wrong. We are all right , as soon as we ask for forgiveness it is given..right?...All about the journey!!!

OK Dirt....here's your sign ;D

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   If you come to God with a desire for forgiveness (A truly repentant heart), forgiveness is so granted.  With God now in your heart you will see clearly through time and trials that God truly exists, and that you will look to him for absolutes and guidance rather than to the world for afformation and rationalization.   You will find God is even more reliable than your cell phone, never a busy signal and no dropped calls,  and he comes with a network that puts Verizons to shame.  Of course I see his sense of humor every morning when I look in the mirror,  why my hair is re-distributing itself I don't yet understand.    

Gods Peace, Jeff+

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You lied agian, you said your not going to post on this thread agian. :-X Whats the chances of that, a man of the church lying. lol;

Sorry,TRX9 your absolutely right I said I was done posting to this thread, but lied again, when was the first?  Enjoyed conversing with you all, have a great and blessed weekend!!! ;D ;D

FOUL!!

I said I wasnt going to post again either but I am not going stand by and let fellow friends believers or non-believers have pot shots or personal attacks made against them. lets debate the issue and choose our words a little more wisely.
 
This is also in the Bible

Ecclesiastes  4:10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow brother: but woe to him [that is] alone when he falleth; for [he hath] not another to help him up


TRX #9  what thrill are you shooting for by pointing out his faults.

 something that you need to keep in mind is we share a common interest and that is riding quads whether it is MX, Trials or what ever floats your boat, you not agreeing with someone else point of view doesnt give you the right of way to apply a personal attack, repectfully if you dont  agree with fellow believers here then that is fine. The personal attacks will only cause other problems, you might need help for what ever reason in the future and the only resource may be a believer that you decided to bash, A non-sciptural term you may be familar with is "what comes around goes around"   Let me encourage you to have an open mind when I ask you to educate yourself about is the mercy and grace of Christ not in a matter of wanting to conform you into beliving as I do but to have a  mutal understanding. no one is perfect, we as Christians make mistakes but through the Mercy and Grace of Christ we are forgiven when asked.

1 John  1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness   

I expected the response Chuck.  My response was in direct response to Joe Dirts, and in no way was aimed or directed as part of the ongoing (non) Debate.  I added some levity (check the caption on the attachment) to see if anyone would notice.   I harbor no animosity toward anyone's posts or personal attacks.   Hope to have the oppertunity to enjoy some trails and mud with you all.  BBFN and may God Bless You All ;D   Jeff+

I was just messing around  :P Can't a guy have a little fun  ;)  I think were all tired of the topic anyways. Peace out boys, #9

My Attorney...

   

   

         

   




After living what I felt was a decent" life, my time on earth
came to the end.




The first thing I remember is sitting on a bench in the waiting
room of what I thought to be a court

house.

The doors opened and I was instructed to come in and have a seat by the defense table.

As I looked around I saw the "prosecutor."

He was a villainous looking gent who snarled as he

stared at me.

He definitely was the most evil person I have ever seen.

I sat down and looked to my left and there sat My Attorney,
a kind and gentle looking man whose appearance seemed so familiar to me,I felt I knew Him.

The corner door flew open and there appeared the Judge in full
flowing robes.

He commanded an awesome presence as He moved across the room I couldn't take my eyes off of Him.

As He took His seat behind the bench, He said, "Let us begin."

The prosecutor rose and said,

"My name is Satan and I am here to show you why this man
belongs in hell."

He proceeded to tell of lies that I told, things that I stole,
and In the past when I cheated others. Satan told of other horrible
 Perversions that were once in my life and the more he spoke,

the
further down in my seat I sank.

I was so embarrassed that I couldn't look at anyone, even my own Attorney, as the Devil told of sins that even I had completely
forgotten about.

As upset as I was at Satan for telling all these things about
me, I was equally upset at My Attorney who sat there silently not
 Offering any form of defense at all.

I know I had been guilty of those things, but I had done some
good in my life - couldn't that at least equal out part of the harm
 I'd done?

Satan finished with a fury and said, "This man belongs in hell,
he is guilty of all that I have charged and there is not a person
 who can prove otherwise."

When it was His turn, My Attorney first asked if He might
approach the bench.

The Judge allowed this over the strong objection of Satan,
and beckoned Him to come forward.

As He got up and started walking, I was able to see Him in
His full splendor and majesty.

I realized why He seemed so familiar; this was Jesus
representing me, my Lord and my Savior.

He stopped at the bench and softly said to the Judge, "Hi,
Dad," and then He turned to address the court.

"Satan was correct in saying that this man had sinned,
I won't

deny any of these allegations.

And, yes, the wage of sin is death, and this man deserves to be
punished."

Jesus took a deep breath and turned to His Father with
outstretched arms and proclaimed, "However, I died on the cross so that this person might have eternal life and he has accepted Me as his Savior, so he is Mine."

My Lord continued with, "His name is written in the book of life
and no one can snatch him from Me.

Satan still does not understand yet.
This man is not to be given justice, but rather mercy."

As Jesus sat down,

He quietly paused, looked at His Father and said,"There is nothing else that needs to be done.

I've done it all."

The Judge lifted His mighty hand and slammed the gavel down.
The following words bellowed from His lips..

"This man is free."

The penalty for him has already been paid in full.

Case dismissed."

As my Lord led me away, I could hear Satan ranting and raving,
"I won't give up, I will win the next one." I asked Jesus as He gave
me my instructions where to go next, "Have you ever lost a case?"

Christ lovingly smiled and said,




"Everyone that has come

to Me and asked Me to represent them
has received the same verdict as you,




~Paid In Full~

If you do not pass this along to 15 people immediately,
absolutely nothing will happen.

Passing this on to anyone you consider a friend,
(as I have done here), will bless you both.

"Stop telling God how big your storm is.
Instead, tell the storm how big your God is
 

Its working, He lives and is working through this thread. Lets hope he wins out the battle with satin everytime, with all who are here reading this. I do not get tired of this. Lets keep it going. Even if a seperate section was started for the "believers" in Christ, The non-believers would still click on it because that how the lord works. Its working right here.   

I was just thinking of this and I thought I'd pass the thought on to you all. If there is such thing as heaven and hell, which I don't believe in fary tails though but here it goes anyway. Which would your rather go to after death. Heaven as you guys preach it would be pretty lame here's the things you couldn't do: DRINK ALCOHOL, SMOKE, CURSING, MASTURBATING, BJ'S, SEX, NO ROCK-N-ROLL, RAP, NO LOUD NOSES, NO MOTOR CYCLES, ATV'S, FARTING, BEING MEAN WHEN NEEDED, BASICALLY NO T.V., DANCING UNLESS IT'S OLD FART DANCING, NO JUNK FOOD, DIRTY THOUGHTS, ETC.        Hell: the opposite of heaven, one big party :T               Now honestly were would you rather go! Be honest guys.

well said trx9 sounds like I will stay right here. so I can enjoy my life the way I want to live it . besides I have already been there its called the villages. no fun there, unless they would turn us loose on all there golf courses

being cast into a lake of fire sounds like a real fun time to me.  :banghead.gif :dunno.gif :ThumbsDown.gif

wow.

Id@

THERE WAS A RICH MAN WHO DRESSED IN FINE CLOTHES AND LIVED IN LUXURY EVERYDAY.AT HIS GATE WAS LAID A BEGGAR NAMED LAZARUS,COVERD WITH SORES AND LONGING TO EAT WHAT FELL FROM THE RICH MANS TABLE.EVEN THE DOGS CAME AND LICKED HIS SORES.THE TIME CAME WHEN THE POOR MAN DIED AND THE ANGELS CARRIED HIM TO ABRAHAMS SIDE.THE RICH MAN ALSO DIED AND WAS BURIED.IN HELL WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT,HE LOOKED UP AND SAW ABRAHAM FAR AWAY,WITH LAZARUS BY HIS SIDE.SO HE CALLED TO HIM FATHER ABRAHAM,HAVE PITY ON ME AND SEND LAZARUS TO DIP THE TIP OF HIS FINGER IN WATER TO COOL MY TONGUE,BECAUSE I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FIRE.BUT ABRAHAM REPLIED SON REMEMBER IN YOUR LIFETIME YOU RECIEVED YOUR GOOD THINGS,WHILE LAZARUS RECIEVED BAD THINGS.BUT NOW HE IS COMFORTED HERE WHILE YOU ARE IN AGONY.AND BESIDES ALL THIS,BETWEEN US AND YOU THERE IS A GREAT CHASM HAS BEEN FIXED,SO THAT THOSE THAT WANT TO GO FROM HERE TO YOU CANNOT,NOR CAN ANYONE CROSS OVER FROM THERE TO US.HE ANSWERED THEN I BEG YOU FATHER SEND LAZARUS TO MY FATHERS HOUSE FOR I HAVE FIVE BROTHERS,LET HIM WARN THEM,SO THAT THEY WILL NOT COME TO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.ABRAHAM REPLIED,THEY HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS;LET THEM LISTEN TO THEM.NO FATHER ABRAHAM HE SAID,BUT IF SOMEONE FROM THE DEAD GOES TO THEM, THEY WILL REPENT.HE SAID TO HIM IF THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PREACHING OF MOSES AND THE PROPHETS,THEY WILL NOT BE CONVINCED EVEN IF SOMEONE RISES FROM THE DEAD.(LUKE 16:19-21) SORRY PAL NO PARTY IN HELL.

 :ThumbsUp.gif

Wow, the thread that never goes away. Kudo's to everyone and their strong beliefs. It makes for interesting reading.

I have a question.  Imagine someone that was an honest person that gives far more than they take, they don't lie, steal and are kind to all animals ("gods creatures?").

I am correct in saying that if they were never exposed to brainwashing as a child, so have no belief or disbelief in anything - that they are headed to hell, while so called christians, even those that spend saturday sitting hidden in a tree waiting to blast the head off a deer (one of "gods creatures") but go to church every sunday on their way to Denny's is going to go to heaven.

If that is true, I am sorry but it is laughable.

   

according to churches, and I dont care what kind or religion it is. if you dont follow there rules your going to hell. its called a scare tactic. if heaven is such a better place to be what are you still doing here. and why would the pope need bullet proof glass around him.. because if he is afraid to die were screwed.

Thats what I was trying to say tony, but I use a scare tactic of my own. I apologize people

Hey BunkBuster

1992 BLASTER MINE
2003 Z400MY WIFES
JUST MARRIED AUG,28 2004
BABY GIRL BORN ON MARCH 12 2005 6.5LBS 19"

Aug 28 - March 12 (Doesn't look like 9 months to me).... You still going to heaven?   ;)

Good catch!

 One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.
One of course is that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, the power to say "yes" or the power to say "no," the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.
 
In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people--only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

We have our catalog of sins. We have rape and incest and murder; and we have them all cataloged and classified--but there isn't one of them (or even put them all together in one big hunk) that comes close to the sin of keeping Jesus Christ out of your life. Did Jesus say, "I'm going to send the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin because they rob banks"-- or, "because they believe not on me"?

It is folly to expect that you or I can trifle with the Lord Jesus and not have a penalty attached to it. What ridiculous thinking people have in this area! We expect penalties for doing much less. Life is just built that way.

You jump off a high building, the law of gravity will take care of you. You might say, "God is love," all the way down, but you're still going to get splattered when you hit the bottom! You break the law of gravity, and it breaks you! You may love your little child, but if he puts his finger up on that hot burner on the gas stove or the electric stove, he's going to get burned!

Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences.

 

ACTUALLY MY WIFE AND I WERE NOT MARRIED WHEN SHE GOT PREGNANT WE LIVED TOGETHER FOR ALMOST TEN YEARS AND YES WE DID HAVE SEX AND THAT IS A SIN ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THATS WHEN I REALIZED THAT I WAS DOING THIS THING WE CALL LIFE WRONG AND WAS IN MUCH NEED OF A SAVIOR I ACCEPTED JESUS INTO MY HEART AND HAVE BEEN BLESSED EVER SINCE.THE BIBLE SAYES THAT ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF GODS GLORY (ROMANS 3:23)THAT INCLUDES ME. LIVING WITH MY GIRLFRIEND IS ONLY ONE OF THE MANY SINS I HAVE COMMITED BUT THE BIBLE TELLS ME THAT GODS GRACE IS GREATER THAN SIN(ROMANS 5:20)THERE IS NOT ENOUGH GOOD IN ME OR ANYONE THAT WOULD GRANT ME OR ANYONE ENTRANCE TO HEAVEN IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM AND WHAT HE HAS DONE THAT'S WHY CHRIST DIED A BRUTAL DEATH FOR THE FOR FORGIVNESS OF SINS.BUT GOD DEMONSTRATES HIS OWN LOVE FOR US IN THIS:WHILE WE WERE STILL YET SINNERS ,CHRIST DIED FOR US.(ROMANS 5:8)

In response to all of those who believe in their version of religion, here is an alternate theory of what really happened:

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

<text snipped>

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

See the full text here http://www.venganza.org

All hail the Noodly Appendage  ;D

Ok I get it just because we are of Christian Faith we have to be perfect. I Gotcha... sorry to disappoint ya but that aint true. take a look back at a few posts realize and understand the concept of Mercy and Grace. If your not willing to look into those 2 things it is senseless to continue the personal attacks for nothing more than personal gain trying to make yourself look or feel better.

i'm not attacking anybody.. i just thought it was amusing. ;) you seriously need to lighten up.. get laid, get stoned, something. please.

That is the thing about type and text you just cant get the emotions quite right. honestly brother I am one of the most layed back down to earth guys you will ever know. Hopfully like others  I have ridden with from this site  can attest. When given the chance and we'll ride. Or I can just make fun of you for not believing. ;)

the basics of christianity are grace,mercy,and peace.grace is getting what we don't deserve,and mercy is not getting what we do deserve,and peace.the world defines peace as the absence of conflict. any nation not at war is said to be at peace.god's peace is much more than that;it's a deep-seated sense that all is well in life because everything falls under the perfect control of our gracious and merciful god.

same here but i am quadless right now. sold my z400 to miami416ex now known as miamiz400 and the blaster to scratchedupbangedboy.

Hey FishaHallic,

 I would like to answer your questions for you. I am a pastor for Harvest Fellowship Calvary Chapel in Sterling Colorado. I can see you have some very legitimate questions about God and I will do my best to answer them. I would also like to offer you or anybody else free of charge some books that can answer these questions far better than I ever could. Some of these books do not just use the Bible as it's sorce for facts but they also use scientific proof from archeological finds and scientific discoveries. I will get into those later though.

For your first question on proof of God's existence, well, I was going to do this later but since I went back andre read your questions, I would like to offer and recommend a few books for you. Again if you want, I will send you these books free of charge. The first is called "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell who as I understand it, wrote the book as an atheist trying to disprove the Bible but through his research ended up getting saved. Three more are by Lee Strobel, they are "The case for Christ", "The case for a Creator", and "The case for faith". Last, is a really good book called "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Norman L. Geiser and Frank Turek. I would also liketo add that there is nothing wrong with questioning if God exists. The Bible tells us He has put the desire in every person to seek Him out. He wants us to question are existence and questions who He is because as we search for the truth, we will see the proof of His existence.

Next, your questions were about why God let's so many bad things happen to people. Well, God wants us to love Him and have a relationship with Him. But in order to do that, and to have true love, we must have a free will. That means we can reject Him or choose to love Him. He made it known from day one that mankind was given a free will and that He would never take that away even if that meant we decided to reject Him. He will do His best to persuade us to love Him but He will not force us! Well according to Genesis when Adam decided to sin, all of creation was effected. This is why God hates sin so much. All you see that is bad in the world is because of sin. Again, if God intervened anytime man sinned, God would have essentially lied and sinned Himself when He would effect mans free will. Man was perfect before he sinned but once he fell, he was then under the curse of sin. That means babies would be born with defects, natural disasters would now happen upon the earth, people would kill each other and so on. But God made a way out. He sent Jesus to die for our sinsto pay for them. All a person needs to do is ask to be forgiven and they are. In addition though Once every man has had a chance to choose to accept God or reject Him, and the history of the world has been played out, God will make everything right again and those that have chosen to love God and want a relationship with Him will be with Him for all of eternity where everything will be restored to perfections once again but this time for eternity. Again though, the people that don't want to have a relationship with God will not be made to. God will respect their decision even though He desires that relationship with them. If they reject His plan of salvation and refuse to ask for forgiveness then it is that sin that will send them to hell for all of eternity. But God has made it very clear in the Bible that He does not want any person to go to hell and that is why Jesus died for our sins.

To answer your questions even better, I have the entire Bible preached chapter by chapter and verse by verse on MP3. It is by Pastor Chuck Smith. Just his sermon on Genesis chapter 1 would answer all of your questions. If you would like or anybody else for that matter, I will send the MP3's (8 in all) to anybody free of charge. I know there are a ton of questions you or others may have and I will do my best to answer them. If anybody would like, they can send me a pm either here or over at www.quadsforchrist.net as a pastor, it is my goal to help others understand more about God and prove He does exist. I know the medialikes to portray the pastors who get up on the pulpit and like to make more of a show then a sermon or who like to leave the whole love of God thing out when they preach on sin. I on the otherhand will answer any questions anyone asks in as loving as a manner as I can. I won't sugarcoat my answers or tell you what you want to hear just to make you happy. But I will tell you the truth but be as respectful towards you as I can.

Last, if you look at the complexity of the universe and all of creation including life, it all points towards a Creator. It is hard for us to grasp and understand God's ways but then again, if you look at who God is and all that He is able to do, it will help you understand why we can't fully grasp who He is but one day when we are made perfect and we are with Him, we will be able to understand Him and why everything has happened.

I hope what I have said helps! I will be praying for you and all thathave questions on here. Again, for anybody with questions, please don't hesitate to pm me.
God bless,
Jason

Chuck Norris recomended this book to me and I read it. He said the same thing  "who as I understand it, wrote the book as an atheist" he was not what I call an "atheist", try reading the book, he was brought up a christian and had just lost his faith for a while. That is completely different from someone who was not brainwashed as a child and have had no exposure to any religion at all and has never believed in god.

I am sure many of you murder "gods creatures" for fun (we can call it for food - but we all know you murder for fun) so I guess nobody wants to address my point that under your beliefs, that someone, who is legitamately concerned with the welfare of other animals would go to hell and you people who have no respect for "gods creations" are going to heaven because your parents and peers and teachers exposed you to religion at an early age.

So is it correct that nearly everyone else in the world - jews, hindus, muslims and people with no exposure to religion are going to hell - basically all non-christians, no matter how well they have lived their lives are going to hell. While christians, no matter how they live their lives, are going to heaven as long as they ask to be saved?

If all creatures are equal in gods eyes, I would sure love to be standing at the pearly gates when the prayer saying, hymn singing pest control guy tries to explain to Peter why he thought it was ok to spend his life, dedicated to killing as many of "gods creatures" as possible.

I actually believe that if we do get judged by some entity, it would be based on what we do, not what we say, so I figure that a clean living non-believer would have a better shot than most (with some exceptions) of the christians I know or have met.

So now it's not OK to be a hunter/fisherman AND a Christian? I happen to be both.
I would like to think that the harvest and consumption of animals and/or fish doesn't interfere with my faith. You animal rights people never cease to amaze me with your backwards logic, but I must admit I've never seen the "all God's creatures" approach to animal rights. If you are really dedicated to "God's creatures", I'm sure you use only products that have no animal content. No meat, leather, make up, dog food, soap, and on and on.
I shouldn't give you such a hard time, I too am a member of PETA,

P - People
E - Eating
T - Tasty
A - Animals
 :pig.gif :pig.gif :pig.gif
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to have Venison sausage for breakfast. And yes, I waited in a tree and shot it.   :E   

Your wrong, I am not one of the "animal rights people".  I never said I was dedicated to anything - why would you say that? I don't care what other people do, I only care about what I do.

I don't sit in a tree all day and blast off a creatures head though because I enjoy murdering things though. That I freely admit too.

It just seems to me, that it is very hypocritical to get pleasure out of killing, but on the other hand call yourself a christian.  I never said anything about harvest and consumption, I refered to people that enjoy killing and do it for fun.

I seriously doubt you are going to eat a venison sausage, perhaps another hunters?.

Listen, you are the one who thinks you are going to be judged, but whatever, if you think it's ok, good luck to you - blast away, I am not the one going to be judging you later, I could care less whether I speak to you or not again.

I said that because in your earlier post you expressed a strong feeling torwards the well being of animals, so I assumed you were an "activist". I am also an animal lover and a christian and a hunter. I guess it's kind of hard to wrap your mind around all three being able to coexist. The killing of the animal is not the primary objective to the true hunter. The enjoyment comes from being out in nature, the process of the hunt itself, and like many other sports, spending time with like minded friends and family.
My question to you is what is the difference between "murdering" one deer in the woods and "murdering" 10,000 cattle in one day at a packing house? Murder is murder right? Shot in the head is shot in the head, correct?
If you want some venison sausage, come on by. We're also smoking 2 Venison hams today. Just because we have different opinions doesn't mean I wouldn't welcome you.
And you know you want to speak to me again...  I'm so charming.

One is for substinance and one is for pleasure. If they are the same in your mind then I doubt anything I say would change that - you just got to hope your god feels more like you do than he/she does like I do. You judge you, your living for eternity in heaven, I judge you....well? Actually I don't know you well enough to judge you, but you get my drift.

Paul Great to see you read the book that myself and Jay suggested. Myself an Jay are actually good friends. I have learned quite a bit from him. I jumped at the chance to pick up the books he mentioned way back when to feed the never ending thirst and quest for the word of God.
In that same respect, I can read something and you can read the same thing and get a different point of view. That is what sounds like has taken place, in that perspective that is what makes us unique with the ability to formulate our oun opinions. Dont just stop there I hope that it encourages you to press on with other manuscripts. The Lord said"Seek and you will find"
 Us as humans have a hard time believing in something that we can not physically see,touch, smell or taste. That is where Faith plays a huge role. Without the Cross, death and resurrection of Christ there would be no Christianity. It is resurrectional Faith that has surrvived all these years. Signs and wonders through the world pose clear evidence of the Life outlined in the Bible
 You can go to Jeruselm just as I  via the Navy and be amazed in the revelations there. Quite truthfully that is what sealed it for me.  In the news recently archaeologist have revisited the site believed to be Noahs Arch, http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahs-ark-05.htm
under those pretence that we have to have physical proof what is to come of the Nay sayers. Sure they will refute that as being anything but. It is just to much of a coincidence to me.

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/Chuck_Norris/wpe109.jpg)

Hi Chuck, I am still looking. Only an idiot would think that the outcome from your beliefs (eternity in heaven - opposed to the outcome from mine, rotting to dust in a pine box) is not far better, but I am afraid it just does not seem plausible.

Hey just a thought?
I am far from religious. But with all this info everyone gives out for Heaven & Hell who has actually been to either? Or for that matter know of anyone that has been & come back?Where is the rule book and itinerary?The Moslems think the martars get 21 virgins and they truly believe that as well? I respect your beliefs but without an actual review from someone who has been and come back to any of these places I will stay on the sidelines for this!Without proof it seems to be alot of he said she said fiction going on here..................................... ???

Paul S,

 I read your thoughts on people who call themselves Christians but kill animals. First realize that when man sinned in the Garden of Eden, the Bible says God made skins to cover Adam and his wife because they realized they were naked. Well, in order to have made the skins God had to kill an animal. Next, before Jesus died God required animal sacrifices to temporarily cover mans sins. God has also made it clear in the Bible that man is higher that any animal and has dominion over them. You are correct though that we should not just go and kil an animal for no reason. Man was originally given charge over the earth and told to care for it. While it is not a sin for us to hunt or fish or kill an animal for food or need, I don't necissarily think it is a good idea to only kill for just sport or for no good reason. God has never said He is for waisting His creations or anything else. The only time we see in the Bible man killing an animal is for food, sacrifices (which are no longer required because Jesus has now died for our sins), need such as clothes or skins for making shelter and so forth. But we do not see anywhere in the Bible where we are to just hunt to kill for the heck of it and God condones it. God places value on life even the life of an animal. That is why when animal sacrifices took place it was actually a very somber thing. The priests or the person who has sinned were required to kill the animal and let it bleed out until it had died. God was showing His people how costly that sin was because the only thing that would pay for it was the sheddding of innocent blood. The animals had to pay the temporary price until Jesus came. Because Jesus is God in the flesh and was the only person to ever live a sinless life, when He died, His blood that was shed was innocent but at the same time, was the final thing that would pay for all sins.

There is a book called 21 minutes in hell that a real estate agent from California wrote. I forget his name but can find out for you. I have only read parts of the book so I am not sure if the man died and went to hell or if God temporarily allowed his spirit to leave his body and go there but the man gives a very detailed picture of hell and then let's the readers know why God allowed him to go there for 21 minutes. I have also known of several people who have died and come back to life. Both saved and unsaved. Funny thing is the ones who knew Jesus went to heaven but Jesus had them come back for a reason. The ones who didn't, also went to hell but once they were allowed to come back, they are now saved and have used what has happened to them as a ministry to bring others to the Lord!

My own experience is this. I have never died or been to either place. But I know what place I will be going when I do die or the Rapture happens. When I was around 6 or 7 years old a lady showed up at our church after a Sunday evening service. If I remember correctly she had dabbled in some things of the occult like playing with a Ouja board (sp?) She said certain things that were not normal started happening in her home soon afterwards and she wanted some prayer. My faily gathered around her, layed hands on her and started praying for her. Within about a minute, she went into a transe like state and we heard a very demonic voice which she would have not been able to make start speaking through her. This demon was trying to tell my family to leave it alone and her alone and that she was his. My family continued to pray for 3 to 4 hours and then finally after several hours of listening to this thing curse God, and try it's best to keep this woman possessed, it let her loose with the loudest scream I have ever heard. It was so loud that it would be physically impossible for a human to make this loud of a noise. Now keep in mind, that I was about 6 or 7, and this was my family who I knew very well who prayed over this lady. Therefore I know for a fact what had happend was very real. Well since I have wittnessed first hand a demonic force possess a person, I know they exist. If they exist then so does God as well as Satan. What is interesting though is this demon cursed God and Jesus and trembled at His name! But at no time did thatDemon ever mention Buddah, or Muhamed or any of these other false gods. The reason is simple. God has made 1 way for salvation. If there was more than 1 way Jesus' death would be pointless because something else for salvation could be done. Well because Satan also knows there is only 1 way to salvation, he has made 100's of religeons to confuse man in getting him to stray from the 1 true way. In addition, Satan is so crafty he will make some of those religeons as close to the 1 true way as he can. They may be 90 to 95% like the 1 true way but even though they are 90 to 95% like the 1 true way, they arew NOT the 1 true way to God. The Bible tells us that Satan was able to decieve 1/3rd of the angels in heaven and that they were all cast out and made into demons. Well if Satan can do this with anglels who were in God's presence and saw Him for who He is, then how easy is it for him to decieve us. One day God will make those that have been forgiven a little higher than the angels because of what we have had to go through but be warned that Satan is very deceptive and his entire purpose is to destroy all of God's creations.

you all have some very strong beliefs. I am sad to say that's all they are. he said she said not what god said. if you think god exist that's fine. if he is up there, and he keeps letting so called priest and preachers molest children the way they have been doing for years, he needs to wake up and strike these sick people down dead. because if i had these kind of powers these people wouldn't exist.
 P.S. don't reply to this unless you can prove it. not by he said she said real facts because there are so many sick people in in this world I don't believe anything without proof

I think all you bible huggers are hurting your cause with a that jibberish thats being type. :-X   Chuck- I think I found the ARK at croom over by hermans hill. ;)

Main Entry: id·i·ot
Pronunciation: 'i-dE-&t
Function: noun
from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiOtEs one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, from idios one's own,
1 usually offensive : a person affected with idiocy
2 : a foolish or stupid person
- idiot adjective


Don’t fit the description sorry


From what I am seeing 9 pages of inquires 207 post and 2038 reads is not hurting the cause, 9 pages and 2038 reads says that someone may actually be reading this entire thread with an open mind and have questions that are being addressed. Just as much as you feel that it is hurting someone, I believe someone is being lifted spiritually. Bottom line is we have to this day co-exsisted (believers and non-believers).  Through the time of the Flood, through Sodom and Gomorra the parting of the Red Sea and many trials past and present. The fact is that some under no circumstance will ever come to accept a relationship with Christ and according to the Bible they will be left behind. I challenge you the nonbelievers if you are dead set in your ways as I am in the opposite show me irrefutable proof that there is no God, further more that nothing in the Bible ever occurred. To Tony Pitts contentions I don’t want to hear" well if I were God I would......."  Or "this is going on why would a true God in Heaven allow this." I want Documentation. Physical evidence. Win me over to the dark side LUKE ???
I stand by the Bible it has to this day stood every challenge thrown at it. It has not been disproved. Set aside the fact that it is a religious document and study it in a foundation of historical nature. I have never personally met George Washington but some where I read he was the first president of the United States, I never met Christopher Columbus but there is a book or 2 that said he discovered America and we are taught this via historical documents. Check out the writings of the May Flower Compact.
The only reason people don’t want to accept the way of the Bible or acknowledge it is because it hinders the way that they currently live their lives. It is easier to act in sinful nature than to follow guidelines set forth in the Bible.

Thanks for the attempted correction, but why would you write this  "Don’t fit the description sorry"??  According to your cut and pasting,  an idiot is a foolish or stupid person.

Do you not think that it would be a foolish or stupid person that would want to go through life expecting to spend eternity decomposing in a pine box, opposed to thinking that there was an afterlife waiting for them in heaven?

The point being made was that the benefits your way of thinking are obviously better than the benefits (none) of mine. It is just next to impossible to start believing in something just because you or JayDawg or anyone else says it is true.

amen
Thats exactly how i feel.
your a good guy shawn.

This is not a personal attack nor am I singling out anyone person directly it is however what is written,  Perhaps the most astonishing statement I have ever read in the Bible is found in Psalm 14:1.  King David declares, The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
I dont fit that description of being stupid. Clearly a stupid person could not have the mental capacity to choose, therefore an educated man can choose to believe or not to believe, subsequent to the desicion there is consequence and reward with the choice.
Myself and JayDawg are merely a % or a fraction there of who join the ranks in having faith that things of the Bible are indeed truth.   

Re-read what I posted, I never said you were stupid, quite the opposite actually, I said I was.

Wow its been so long that I almost missed this discussion.  Interesting to see both sides.  I know most of the guys involved and some I dont but the the overall consensus of none belivers is to blame God for all the bad things that happen, and for the belivers is to blame Satan.  Where and when is it mans fault?  God gave us free will, its our choice to blow people up, let them starve, kill each other, rape children ect.  If you truly know history in general, than you know hell and Satan are man made and were added to the bilbe by the church late in history to control man.  So you really cant blame Satan.  HELL DOES NOT EXIST!  Free will, DONT BLAME GOD!  Can man accept blame himself?  NO!  If every American where to buy a used car instead of a new one and send the surplus over to the people who are starving, there would be no starvation.  And thats just America, imagine if the whole world were to do it. 

Try to look at Jesus as a supervisor.  Man needed some kind of control. Without control we would just continue to kill each other at random and without reason.  God sent him down to intervine and set us on the right path.  Man needed control because of our mind frame. 

The problem is we are STS(service to self) society .  Every thing we do in the end is to make ourselves feel good.  If you are true to yourself and can go without lying to your heart ask, WHAT DO I DO THAT ISENT FOR ME IN THE END?  Even loving your children makes you feel good so, you trick yourself into thinking is selfless but in the end it makes you feel good. If you truly cant admit that than you are lying to yourselves, thats just the way God made us.

My business partner is a Biblical Scholar who has  been studying the Bible for over 25 years and not in a religious sense, and has written several books on the Bible,  will tell you the same thing I will, the Bible is full of error and is easlily taken apart.  If you were to actually write the text in its actual language the Bible would read completely different than todays versions.  There is alot lost in translation and time.But that does not take from the main message that its trying to give, LOVE EACH OTHER AND TREAT EACH OTHER LIKE YOUR BROTHER.  Its very simple yet overlooked.  I dont believe that Jesus was sinless(big debate in our office), I believe that he was married and had children(there is a very little know book written by Jesus).  He was like any other man except that he treated everyone like his own brother.  His teachingw were to love one another and not be jugdemental. He was so selfless that he gave his life for us.

In the end it does not matter wether you belive or not, if you belive the bible teaching than you will be forgiven anyways because God is a forgiving God and will show mercy, but if you belive than good for you. 

Take a good look around and share in this wonderfull place that God has given us to enjoy.  Share the love with each other and enjoy your time together.  This place is to grand for there not to be a higher power and creator.

Jessie good to see you chime in, I can agree with about 75% of what you said, even more interesting, I'd like to pick the mind of your business partner and read the books you mentioned. or better yet slide over to www.quadsforchrist.net (http://www.quadsforchrist.net) and lets talk there

P.S.  are you going to Durhmantown, call me

These athiest thoughts are the devils work... Open your mind and free your soul... We only use 10% of our brain so it is impossible to understand Gods work and why things are the way they are... But be sure that one day it will all be very clear, but then it might be to late...

Welcome aboard MIARAP1, couldnt agree with you more.
glad to see another fellow believer come aboard
feel free to check out www.quadsforchrist.net (http://www.quadsforchrist.net) to fellowship with other believers
 

You know I actually liked this thread until it became a One way thinking thread... It is no longer an Open Minded thread. I do not think it is right some of the insinuations the "Believers" have made.

Thank you for ruining a very informative thread.

I couldnt agree with you more Joe. There are a few on here that just tell you how they feel and leave it at that but there are others that are constantly calling names and telling you that you are wrong. That is part of the reason I dont visit the above mentioned site anymore. I am a christian but have a hard time talking to most about it because they apparently have a direct line to Gods phone, I mean after all they are right and someone else is wrong. Its just that christianity seems to leave the door in these religous debates so much that I cant stand it.

Joe and Big Scrub, I agree with you both.  I dont claim any denomonation for that reason.  If I were to post what really is on my mind it would stir so much that its not worth my time to try to discuss reasons why we think our brains use only ten percent of its capacity, what Jesus really was doing here and so forth.  I probably have one of the most open minds of anyone you will meet and love to share theories with those of the same mind frame.  I will not waste my time with those that as you said have Gods direct line. LOL  If you would like to share I would love to here.  Since there is no proof its all right and there is no one person or religion that is 100% correct.

God Bless.

Why don't some of you guys go back and read some of the responses from the non believers. Alot of them are ridiculous statements that were made just to get a rise out of someone who is strong in their faith. Cmon  saying to Chuck Norris"I found the ARK at Croom?" What an idiotic statement meant just to ridicule ones belief.How about " Why would the pope need bullet proof glass around him?If he's afraid to die were all screwed.What a genius. What about"I just went out and did doughnuts in my back yard and it left the outline of the Virgin Mary"  Don't forget "go sell crazy some where else" really respectfull of someones religous beliefs isn't it? Oh yeah how about "theres no god unless you believe in fairy tales" and then he finishes with " if you believe in that stuff I got your respect?" _{How can you expect to have a rational educated disscussion with that mentality or lack of respect? I didn't see the " believers " ridicule the non believers opinions, all I saw was them giving their opinions and proclaiming their beliefs in a mature fashion. I think the believers are one sided AND the non believers are one sided but "A FEW" of the non believers state their case in an insulting manner. [/glow]}

What do you expect cableguy1 they believe in a imaginary man in the sky, that he has all these powers but can't use them or show himself. Go sell crazy somewhere else that was a good one.

"Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"

This topic does not have a positive end in sight, Though there are few post made w/ some
mature intelect most are typical and nothing surprising. For the sake of the web site and what it supposed to stand for in my opinion we should just agree to disagree and leave it alone.
Theology says How can 2 walk together less they agree. There is a reason why God gave us 2 ears 2 eyes and 1 Mouth, we should see and listen twice as much as we run our mouths and many have shown that their mouth is so big that when they speak you couldn't see that they have eyes and ears anyway. The focus has been lost here ladies and gentlemen so lets get back the  the forumns roots and get on w/ life.

I agree. Fishahallic if you lock the topic I will give you $1.00, a used fishing lure and a coupon for a free movie.

Well said  :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :ThumbsUp.gif
2 famous quotes:
1) You can love to hate me or hate to love me.
2) I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for what I am not
I have a strong passion for my Family, My Faith and my Job everything else just doesnt matter

Did someone say FREE movie  :wink.gif, I agree it has run its course.  Thanks for the replies