ATV Florida Forum

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!  



I was asked to send this on if I agree or delete if I don't. It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a problem in having ! "In God! We Trust" on our money and having "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the 14% to Shut Up and BE QUIET!!!

If you agree, pass this on, if not delete. .


I AGREE !!!!
the STUMP

me too.

me three

Here is my soap box Brother, Preach!!!!

whatever your bellief is is your right . thats almost as bad as saying 50 % of the people that dont like atv's can tell everyone else they cant have one

Hell Yeah Brother PREACH IT!

Why is it so important?   If it would make people shut up, then what's the big deal?   How would that being removed affect you?  These people may not put their trust in a higher power.  Why should they be forced to have on display that they do?  I really don't care either way.  But they have a reason to want it off. 

the main argument is the seperation of church and state  which i strongly believe in the chuches already have to much power as it is

Well yea, then I have to say that I am for religious beliefs not being involved with anything in the government.  Someone needs to make it clear to Bush that his beliefs shouldn't play any part in decisions made for our country as a whole.

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!

I PLEDGE AS WELL!


If this was my web site i would Ban anyone that did not want to uphold what this country was founded on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



AND YES I SAID IT

this country was built on religion!!!!thats how it all started
and if people dont like it then LEAVE!!!!!
if you dont like my american money with IN GOD WE TRUST ON IT
dont take it, save it or spend it.move to cuba where you can have all those rights!! if you not shot  for your freedom of speech !!this is how it was and is !!!!! YOU CAN PRY MY GUN OUT FROM MY COLD DEAD FINGERS!!!

what is on the steps of the supreme court???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
ANSWER THE TEN COMANDMENTS  <SP> SORRY
AND HOW OLD IS THAT BUILDING??????????????????????

I sure am Glad someone said it, ya'll know how I can get with this topic.. I respect your views if you dont believe , but that is why the country is in the condition it is in, We as believers have not stood up to the minority of non-believers. The speration of Church and state when you study the topic you will find that it is being used  outside of what it was designed. You ask what the big deal is about the pledge, caution my friend for those who have served this country proudly have a little more meaning then you can realize. ;)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/Chuck_Norris/passing.jpg)

Amen  :bow.gif

You mean to tell me that because I don't worship something that there is no hard evidence of, I should be persecuted.  Yea real holy people I tell you.  While you sit around and do things that make you a hypocrite, I can live life with a clear consience.  Just some examples that I know everyone has to have done or continue to do on a regular basis. Drinking excessively, sex before marriage, masturbating, cussing, defieng the body with tattoos and cigarettes, breaking man's laws(including but not exclusive to doing 1 mph over the speed limit)! I'm sure everyone of you devotes your freetime to preaching the word of God.   I was under the impression that it was God's job to do the judging.   Eveyone needs to worry about their own accountability to the God they choose to believe in.  Like I siad before, I could care less about what the dollar bill says.  But, I do care about a bunch of hyocrites trying to say that they are better than me just because they claim to be a follower of Christ! I thought we had freedom of religion in this country, which no religion is still a form of it in my book! Or would you accept me if I said I believed in God, and his name was Satan.  Then I am one of you right?

Yep got to agree there are a few misguided folks there is no doubt, even christians make mistakes, GOD knows I have. but the key element with that is caled Mercy and Grace. I am not going to bash you for what you believe or dont believe
The single cause for atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door and deny him by their life style. That is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable, personally I am charging HELL with a super soaker water cannon. but I have my faults and that is where the Grace and mercy of Jesus Christ Comes it. I would say for the sake of the discussion if you  are right then nothing is lost because if people lived life how the Bible said to live life then we would live in a perfect world or at least make this fallen world a little better place.  Because you are litterally betting your eternity that you are correct at least investigate what the Bible says with an Open Mind, I am always available if you want to talk outside of an open forum to answer questions,  I would also recomend a few books. The first is by Josh McDowell called "Evidence that demands a verdict" It is my understanding that Josh wrote it as antheist trying to disprove the Bible but through his investigations, proved himself wrong and the Word of God correct. The next one is by Lee Strobel called "The case for Christ" He too was an atheist at one time and put on trial the life of Jesus and His claim to being the only redemption of sins. It is an excellent book that is written in a very non confronting form that has tons of proof of Jesus' life and claim to being The Son of God.  Feel free to PM me if you have questions

I believe in the Pledge of Allegiance , I believe in all that  has made this country great , what I do not believe in is being ridiculed for not being devout to any 1 religion. You can not force Ideals on anyone and you have to respect the beliefs they have and they DO NOT have...

I believe in separation of religion and atvflorida.com!

Oh, and that little dancing thingy on o4250's post is freaking awesome!

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!

 :bow.gif :Clap.gif :bow.gif :Clap.gif :bow.gif :Clap.gif :bow.gif :Clap.gif :bow.gif :Clap.gif :bow.gif :Clap.gif :bow.gif :Clap.gif :bow.gif :bow.gif :Clap.gif :bow.gif

Bluesman-got a few issues with you, 1. Bible talks about death being more important than  birth.  Do you honor Jesus memorial? Not Easter, (check spelling) but Niassun 14th. 2.  Noone trying to say they don't want anything to do with the money, they are saying stop making them obligated to say they put their trust in a higher power, or God.   3.  This country was stolen from Indians!(enough said) 4. Once again freedom of religion
Joedirt-  Respect
Chuck- Mad respect! I would never try to discourage or alter what someone believes in in anyway.  I know it was intended generally and not specifically, but I am Agnostic not Athiest.  I would be interested in reading the  books that you mentioned.  I did do a little searching for a religion that I agreed with. Decided it was in my best interest to go the spiritual route.  Which  is really just the moral aspect I guess.  But yea like I said, all for religion helping people on an individual basis.  I really view religion as therapy.  It's not the form I choose to go with.  The way you went about responding to that last reply I had well,  I was really impressed. I can tell that you are one of the true believers.  Well, I am sensing this I should say.  Even if that's not the case, you still have a freedom of religion in which you could express hypocritaically if you choose to do so.  But it's the people who claim to be holier than thou.  Like I said mad respect.

Dude you forgot #3. Just playin. I am a Christian and dont like God being taken out of everything but i will never look down upon someone because they dont believe what i do. I dont see it right that we force God upon everyone because that is the whole reason our founding fathers came to these shores. I will discuss religion with anyone and try and show them the right way but i cant force anyone to follow it. It is a personal decision between them and God.

Haha! Boy I read over that several times before posting too. I deleted an issue that probably would have confused everyone.  Going to correct it.  ;D

Mutal respect is given unto you aswell, keep in mind I am available usually anytime after work to answer questions, for what you learn I also learn and study
Peace

It is Ironic how this all comes about, My Sons are presenting the COLORS  for the Blue and Gold Dinner in their Boy Scout troops, My youngest son will be annunciating the Pledge amongst all of the Guests. :ThumbsUp.gif

I  never said that i was a christian did i??? you assumed  shame on you
what does indians have to to with this thread??? we need to stay on same page.
I WILL DEFEND YOUR RIGHT NOT TO BELEIVE WITH MY DIEING BREATH!
 but  the facts Are the fact this is how are fore fathers set this all up to be!
if it worked for over 200 some odd years.  then its good enough for me.
 IF IT WORKS DONT SCREW WITH IT.  WPBSMOKA
  YOU LIVE CLOSE BY WE NEED TO HOOK UP AND RIDE!!!!

Yes, I would love to meet and ride with anyone on here.  And as far as the indians,  not to keep this going, but you said this country was founded on religion, and if my memory serves me correctly, not stealing is one of the ten commandments.  Taking a 3 week trip.  Will want to do some kind of event or anything when I get back.  I was thrilled to find this forum.  And I appreciate everyone trying to make me feel welcome by offering oppurtunities to ride. 

psssst   this land for some beads!!!!! thats not stealing
its a great deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol   let me know when   ride on

These type of posts always get it going. I think people are sometimes afraid of what they do not understand or can not hold. Its Ok because its all in Gods plan. In God I do trust and believe. He is patient with me.   

 8)

I think under god should stay in the old terms
after 1947 they did put word under god.Well alot people
will be piss off at captail hill and mr bush for screw to many things
up.I know their is alot of saying about that..

 I think we should keep under god i was tought that since day
I was in first day school in PR on navy base.So i'm southern and full
blooded american I'm proud as it.

 >:(  >:( So those morons need get a life up there in washtoning dc
and if don't like words under god you should live our country
and never come back...

Thanks,
amhighlander 8)
PS:I know  freedom should be free in this world and treat people kind...

 

Yep.

Yea that is funny. I guess movies I have seen influenced what I said there. 

once again this post is not just about religion! it is about respect!! as for those that are so quick to point out all the rules made by man and by our LORD and SAVIOUR should atleast agree that the PLEDGE and IN GOD WE TRUST  was set forth by those rule makers that are of this earth!

I am with ChuckNorris on this subject, it is your right to believe what you wish. I wont hold that against you or look down on you for that. Im not perfect so I dont judge, but I still say that if you dont have the RESPECT to say the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE then America is not your home.

 :bow.gif :bow.gif

Who else on this thread knows the significance of Nisan 14th besides WPBMOKA and I?

For the record I celebrate Nisan 14th 8)

AND I SUPPORT IT!!!

right on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE!






Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, Passover Day, Nisan 14th.

He was entombed Wednesday evening. He was in the heart of the earth...

Wednesday night (Night 1)
Thursday (Day 1- a special Sabbath)
Thursday night (Night 2)
Friday (Day 2)
Friday night (Night 3)
Saturday (Day 3 - the weekly Sabbath).
The Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected at twilight on Saturday...
at the instant Saturday died,
and the instant Sunday was born.

Just to let you know this country was not founded on religion.  It was founded on freedom of religion.   To worship (or not) any god you choose. 

Our troops are fighting in the Middle East right now to protect our right to worship any god we choose.  Who are they fighting? They are fighting those that think we should only worship ONE god, Allah.   That's why we have a Democratic  form of government.   Those of you that think that your god is the only god have alot in common with the Islamic radicals in the middle east.

With that said, I don't care about "In God we Trust" on our money or The Pledge of Allegiance being left just like they are just keep prayer out of school,  oops thats another thread. :)

Lets look carefully at the below statement

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!


Now let me show you ................I DONT CARE.............people something!

#1. its pledging ALLEGIANCE to the FLAG
#2. OF the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
#3. one NATION under GOD..........it does not say many nations under ONE GOD!!

Now with that typed I can not understand why you...........I DONT CARE.........people dont have enough respect to want to say the PLEDGE!

Lets look at the "IN GOD WE TRUST" on our money

#1. it says IN GOD WE TRUST not IN ONE GOD WE TRUST!

So you trust in your GOD and I trust in my GOD and that equals
IN GOD WE TRUST

I pledge of allegiance to the flag of the untied states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation UNDER GODindivisble with liberty and justice for all! in GOD we trust! you klnow how would they like it if we went into their countires and changed their pleges?

The pledge shouldn't be about religion and people shouldnt not say it because of religion.  Just say it for your country, w/e the words are.

You ever hear about SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE?   ::) ::)

The phrase "separation of church and state" never appears in the US Constitution or in any of the ammendments.

The first Ammendment allows people in this country "Freedom of religion" not "Freedom FROM religion" as many have come to think it shold mean today.

I don't think that hearing the word "God" in any phrase or on money is any big deal.  If someone does not like a word, don't say it.  I don't like the word f&%k, so I don't use it, but I don't tell everyone they can't use it or write it, and no one seems to think that is any big deal.  Just my .02  peace  ;)

 At my age I have developed my own sense of what God and The Pledge means to me. I don't go to church (for my own reasons) but, I will stand and say the pledge at any time. I love this country, and love what it stands for. Period. If you don't like it, get the hell out.

After reading dreths other thread started "Gain Respect or Lose Friends" (it was inspirational  ;) ): He is right a lot of people have read this and are choosing to stay out of it. I was one of them for the reason that these  matters can sometimes get sticky, as we do not all agree espically on religion.  When I looked and saw 414 people have read it and only 45 responded on either side of it. I decided to stand up for what I beleive in no matter who does not agree with me. 


I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

I say The Pledge of Allegiance and  "Our Father" every morning with my son at school and YES I AM PROUD OF IT AND WILL CONTINUE TO SAY THE PLEDGE NO MATTER HOW PEOPLE FEEL


 

Good point. The thing is that even the people that does not want GOD in the pledge or on their money, ends up worshipping THEIR own GOD.

It's not people from other countries that want it changed!!!! It's your neighbors your fellow Americans!
This isn't about people using the word God! Noone is saying you can't use the word. They are saying they do not want to be obligated to show that they believe in a higher power!!!Noone is saying America sucks by feeling that way.  They may love their country and everybody in it, but not believe in a higher power.  Why should the country as a whole be obligated to say they believe in a God, or the God or anything for that matter.  Get God tattoed on your forehead for all I care.  But don't put a sign on me that says I worship a higher being.  Once again, I don't care if it changes or not. But these people that want it off have a valid point!

Let me clarify something.  It does not bother me that the word God is in the Pledge of Allegiance or on our money.  But where will it stop?  Next thing you know the Christian right will start to force their morales on me.  They might try to stop women from having abortions, or not give full civil rights to certain groups ooooor.  Oh, wait a minute THEY ALREADY ARE DOING THAT!  That's the problem.

And for those of you that say " if you don't like it leave it", I will tell you this.  I'm more American and patriotic than any of you because I know what this country was founded on and I believe in those princibles.   I also support our soldiers fighting muslim extremist around the world.  These extremist are no different than you right wing Christians they are forcing your morales on everyone else.  I CAN NOT believe you can't see that!

RESPECT!  :ThumbsUp.gif

Respect.

If my daughter's school called and said 'your daughter is not participateing in the Pledge' then she will be in for a rude awakening when she gets home that day!

That is a very small price to pay to live in the greatest country on earth. If you can't show that much respect then 'get the fauck out!!!!!!'

 

Why can't we just be one nation united?!?!?!

Posted by: wilburz   'get the fauck out!!!!!!'   Spoken by a true Christian  :dunno.gif.

Rude awakening for her if the school called huh?  Does that mean some old fashioned physical abuse? I thought the price I payed is what they take out of my check every week.  I never knew that I was required to say the pledge of allegiance.  Hmm.... As a matter of fact, I'm 22 years old and have never said the pledge.  I've read it, but not said the words aloud. Don't remeber the school ever making an issue of it.  Oh, maybe that's because the principals and teachers respected my rights as an American citizen.

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.



I remember saying the Our fathers in school, and I wasn't even in a Catholic school!

I'm not a worshiping man, I do not believe one faith is correct or better than the other.  I do beleive in a supreme being, and in the end I believe everyone worships to the same "God" so to speak.

With that Said I will be one of the first to stand up and say the pledge and the Our Fathers!!!

Also another thing that annoys me is when the National Anthem is played/sang people do not stop talking, stand up, take their hats off, cover their heat with their RIGHT hand!!!  I sing along, but you don't have to just stand there and respect YOUR country!!!!

How do you get off even thinking anyone gives any respect to your opinion. You are sitting here doing exactly what you are accusing these people of doing, being a narrow minded person.
Let me give you a hypothetical. If you are in a club and someone comes in and decides they want to be a part of you group. You let them in, then they decide they want all the benefits but dont want to practice your traditions. Do you let them stay? Probably not. I dont believe anyone wants someone kicked out because of their beliefs. The problem is that most of these "rebels" dont want to hold true the beliefs that founded this country. These beliefs are what made us such a prosperous nation. Why do a select few want to come in and change it? I am with willburz, if i had a call from a school that my child didnt say the pledge, they would be in trouble when they got home. Old fashioned butt whoopin? You bet. I believe in God and Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. I will pray for everyone on this site whether you want it or not.

Hey Fishhallic (spelled correctly) Its Vforcedave coming back at ya. How is it going??  I enjoy your point of view, but that is yours, and your right to have one. I am a Christian (and not a very good one all the time, but that is for God to decide) Most Christians know who does the judging on judgement day. Some people have to get knocked off the donkey to to get to know God. But we are not the judges of our peers, we just live in the spirit and hopefully, if we can save one person our whole life from eternal damnation, then we did a good job while we were here. Its not our job to judge.  This whole debate is a debate only. Its no big deal. Its just a few, airing out a little. I pray everyday for many things. I am going to pray for you in a minute. Its no big deal. God is good, The Holy Spirit is my personal action figure. My God has saved me from living in the cesspool of life. He is patient with me, because he knows I am a human being and full of faults. Time for a quick prayer and oh by the way, DRETH, if you see this You are a true soldier of Christ and even though I have never met you personally, You are a leader amongst men and that is why God has given you that blessing. I love this site and every single person on it. No exceptions. My, don't we love those ATV's. Lets roll.      

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.



Anyone want to change Anything in the Preamble to the Constitution while we are ruining our country's traditions?

1st I would like to say that yes you are entitled to an opinion just like the rest of us, but this is not a pissing contest of who more American or more patriotic.

My question is why are you now feeling the need to be ugly and name call those of us who do not beleive in what you do?  :-\  No one is calling you names, or telling you that you are not entitled to an opinion, or telling you that you are not allowed to feel the way you do. No one is even trying to force their morals on you. How does The Pledge of Alligance force morals on people I ask?

Number one, I did not choose to be born in this country, or even born for that matter.  Not saying I don't want to be here, just making an argument. How is he being narrow minded?  Because you haven't convinced him yet to change his feelings on the subject?  Maybe if you made some valid points besides, "most of these rebels dont want to hold true the beliefs that founded this country."  We have already established that the reason this country was founded, was because everyone wanted to have their own say in what they believe.  It still holds true today.  Noone should be forced into saying they believe in GOD.  I will ask again, we know why people want it off and out(not affiliated with god), but make one valid point why it should stay. How would it  apply to every individual in the nation. It doesn't and it won't. Does it go against your beliefs having it on there? NO!  Does it go against your beliefs NOT having it on there? NO!  Does it go against someones beliefs that doesn't believe in God? VERY MUCH SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

 
[/quote]
Rude awakening for her if the school called huh?  Does that mean some old fashioned physical abuse? I thought the price I payed is what they take out of my check every week.  I never knew that I was required to say the pledge of allegiance.  Hmm.... As a matter of fact, I'm 22 years old and have never said the pledge.  I've read it, but not said the words aloud. Don't remeber the school ever making an issue of it.  Oh, maybe that's because the principals and teachers respected my rights as an American citizen.
[/quote]

Amazing WPBSMOKA. Never said the pledge in your 22 years as a citizen of the United States? I thought all Americans have recited it at least once in their life. Is that because you don't agree with it, or just haven't been asked to say it?

Well growing up I was asked to participate at school.  At that time(no longer the issue) it was against the religious beliefs that my mother was trying to bring me up with. That was only until 8th grade.  My schools never asked me to do it after 8th grade. And I can't think of any other time it was a request. Would I say it now? Good question.... Umm.... I guess I would have to say no.  Strictly because at this point it seems to me that it does not apply to everyone in this nation.  Why would I recite something that I know is untrue?  I know this nation in a whole is not under God! If it said something like "one nation united, idivisable", then yes!  But why would anyone want to recite something that is, well.... just untrue.  Maybe someone could explain exactly what "under God" means.  I am under the impression that it's saying we all put our faith in God. 

I never said anyone should be forced to believe in God, i was talking about the pledge. Yes it would offend me to take it off. Why is it that because it offends you it should come off. You are not making any valid points either. There is nothing that will satisfy everyone in this nation.

Ok, lets make this simple and end this nonscense....


If you believe in God, then by all means, say God when you say the pledge.

If you do not believe in God, then say the pledge and leave out God...

why is that so friggin complicated????

Here ya go!



The wording of the Pledge has been modified three times.

On June 14, 1923, at the First National Flag Conference held in Washington, D.C., under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words. The latter words were added on the ground that some foreign-born children and adults when giving the Pledge might have in mind the flag of their native land.In 1923, the words “the flag of the United States” were substituted for “my flag.”

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

In 1924, “of America” was added.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.


On Flag Day June 14, 1954, the words “under God” were added


This was the last change made to the Pledge of Allegiance. The 23 words what had been initially penned for a Columbus Day celebration now comprised a Thirty-one profession of loyalty and devotion to not only a flag, but to a way of life....the American ideal. Those words now read:

“I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.”

The Pledge of Allegiance continued to be recited daily by children in schools across America, and gained heightened popularity among adults during the patriotic fervor created by World War II. It still was an "unofficial" pledge until June 22, 1942 when the United States Congress included the Pledge to the Flag in the United States Flag Code (Title 36). In 1945 the Pledge to the Flag received its official title as: The Pledge of Allegiance




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the Pledge is being given, all should stand with the right hand over the heart, fingers together and horizontal with the arm at as near a right angle as possible. After the words "justice to all," the arm should drop to the side. While giving the Pledge of Allegiance all should face the flag.

According to Colonel Moss, no disrespect is displayed by giving the Pledge with a gloved hand over the heart, but he calls our attention to the fact that an Army Officer or an enlisted man always removes his right glove upon taking his oath as a witness. The Daughters of the American Revolution follow the custom of having the right hand ungloved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Heres the link in case anyone wants to read the entire article !
http://www.flagday.org/Pages/StoryofPledge.html

"I never said anyone should be forced to believe in God, i was talking about the pledge. Yes it would offend me to take it off. Why is it that because it offends you it should come off. You are not making any valid points either. There is nothing that will satisfy everyone in this nation." Quote from Bigscrb

I never said being forced to believe in God either!!!! I said have on display that they believe in God!!!!!!!And it doesn't offend me if it comes off! It doesn't offend me if it stays on! It offends me that people are being forced to say that they believe in God when they may not have those beliefs at all!!!! My  point is they don't believe in God, and America is forcing them to say they do!!!! How is that not valid!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:(

So what's another modification going to hurt if it's already been changed. Especially when originally it did not say under GOD!!!!!! Everyone is talking about how things were started.  Funny what do you have to say now after seeing your precious "under God" was not the original way?!?!?!?! Seems like the nation was doing well without that in the pledge originally. How's that for a valid point.

NO ONE IS FORCING ANYONE TO SAY THE THEY BELEIVE IN GOD!

NO ONE IS FORCING ANYONE TO SAY THE PLEDGE!

Definition of forced:
forced    (fôrst, frst) KEY 

ADJECTIVE:

Imposed by force; involuntary: was condemned to a life of forced labor; a plane that made a forced landing.
Produced under strain; not spontaneous: forced laughter.

At the very least kids these days should stand up and respect the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance! Just stand up! No one will know if you are talking or not anyways. That is a small price to pay for a public education.  I think youngsters these days that don't stand for the pledge are just looking for a little attention that there families have failed to provide to them.  I am sure there are a lot of kids that don't say the pledge but do participate in the event.     

That is unfortunate that your school did not have the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing, Columbine is a perfect example. School systems are so scare of the left wingers, ACLU and other sue happy oraganizations. That is not respect, that is just plain out being YELLOW, and Spineless
There is a sense of integrity that is built into something like the pledge. It allows me to thanks that next soldier that comes into my dealership for his part in keeping My country, My family safe. I make it a point to Shake the hand of every military/veteran man and woman who has contributed to our country.
 
WELL SAID

Absolutely Chuck, I couldnt have said it better.

I did stand up, sometimes I was asked to leave the room.  But once again, the money they take out of my check each week is what pays for all these things.  I don't owe anything to anyone! You all got here the same way I did.  I was born out of my mothers womb. 
And Chuck, I really don't understand what you were trying to say. Not saying it's false or anything. I'm just saying I don't quite understand.  Intestinal fortitude? What action, and who is being yellow? please explain :)

The Left wingers and the ACLU type organization are the first people to sue someone for doing the right thing, intestinal fortitude means having th GUTS to say something and do something with out fear, especially of the above mentioned organizations
I say and this is my opinion and belief, There are Men and Woman fighting for our country so that we can reap what they sow, you can give them the respect of saying  a simple pledge without grief. I am sure your tune would change if you were on the front line as I was so many times before, They make the ultimate sacrifice for us. Jesus Christ made the ultimate Sacrifice on the old wooden Cross, and for that I am faithful to his word. and give the due respect top our service man and woman...  I guess it boils down to just that sacrifice... that'll preach

So what are you saying?  I should be thrown out of public school because my beliefs(at that time) required me to not participate in the Pledge?  Doesn't sound like freedom of religion to me.  And who's to say what's right in that aspect?  Who is, and what action is someone being yellow and spineless about?

I dont  know you on a personal level and mean you no disrepect but you last comment  sounds like absolute and utter disrespect for what has been done on your behalf

In response to the modification......
This war for example.  I would serve my jail time before putting a bullet in someones head.  And every American is entitled to this option.  I could not take someones life for any reason.  Even if it came down to me or him.

How is following guidelines for a religion disrespectful.  Would it not be the person trying to make me doing something against my religion the disrespectful one? 

guide lines for religion is something that is followed with the respect of the gift given by Jesus Christ,( my belief) The gift of salvation was given unto me therefore I respect the guide lines within.  you can believe that  your religous freedom comes from somewhere else, but somewhere someone had to fight for the freedom you are enjoying..Freedom is given unto me via my Military brothers and sisters, therefore I return the safety and securty they have provide with simple repect for what they have done for me.

One of the few things our government makes its people do is sign up for the Selective Service. I would assume you have registered right?  If there was a draft then I guess you would be one of those so called "draft dodgers" right?

    thank GOD for people like me and our military so you dont have to!!

So I take it if someone comes in your house and tries to murder you or your family, you would not try to kill them first. These  people come to our country and fly planes in our buildings and they should not be punished. If it wasn't for this war they would have already bombed us again.

People    People   People


Debate is good.       Personal attacks of ANY kind is NOT.


Understand

**Keep in mind I am Agnostic, arguing from a religious point of view that requires this of their followers.  **
Listen, I am not worried about what you or the next guy thinks is disrespectful. When it comes to answering to God, you could call me everyname in the book including spineless and yellow.  But if my beliefs say to do or not do something, then that's what I will do!  Why would I throw away what I believe to be a chance for a perfect life just because I am worried about offending some worldly people?!?!  I just don't understand.  Why is it disrespect for believing in something. Because it doesn't coincide with your beliefs? 

No, you are  probably right Yunt.  :(I most likely would make an attempt to restrain them in some form.  I really couldn't give an honest answer on how I would respond to a situation like that, but I would assume I would make an attempt to survive. 
Yes I would be a draft dodger.  Try and start something over that, see if I care.  I'm not about to put my life on the line for anyone, unless there was no way around it. 
Bluesman-respect

You should probably stop riding, you might run over a bug and kill it.  ;D

Lighten up, nobody is forcing you to do anything. Worship a god, kill someone, or even say a pledge. These are all just opinions here, and like something else, everyone's got one. Check on over at www.iwon'trecitethepledgebecausei'magnostic.com I think they've got a few good forums for you.

Lighten up. LOL.  I am not even fired up.  I am not worried about killing bugs either. And these people ARE being forced to say that they acknowledge GOD!  Everyone keeps saying that noone is making them do anything.  This is a false statement.  Taking the word God off of our money is not forcing you to do anything.  Leaving it on is forcing everyone in the nation to be titled as a believer in GOD!  I can't even see why this is a debate.  I would not be offended in any way if it was taken off and I believe in God.  But I would be offended if I did not believe in God, and this country(that is supposed to have freedom of religion, including not particiating in any) made me have on display that I did!  I am just a very open minded individual, who tends to take the side of the minority in debates.

lets be clear... the comment about being spineless and yellow was refferring to the public school system not a personal attack, non of the comments I have made were personal attacks, just so that we have an understanding

Ok, that was a misunderstanding then. Thaks for clearing it up!  As far as I know, I haven't made any comments that I should worry about offending someone. Well my views on this subject may offend some people, but I mean no name calling or anything like that.  If you feel I have made an offensive statement directed towards you(anyone), please let me know.   :-\

Nothing wrong with having your opinion. Isn't freedom great. I happen to disagree with you, but that's my opinion and I'm not going to sit here and argue all day about it.

The other great thing about this country is that things can be changed if you have a majority that agrees with you. But, if this thread is any indication, it looks like God will probably remain in the pledge and on our money.

I can agree with every bit of that. ;D

OK GOT QUESTION, IF <YOU> DONT BELIEVE IN GOD..
WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT YOU PLEDGE????



 
      I DONT BELEIVE IN THE TOOTH FAIRY  ,BUT I ALLWAYS GOT MONEY UNDER MY PILLOW!!
 
   AND IF ITS BEEN THIS WAY FOR 50,70 OR A HUNDRED YEARS AND ALL THESE NEW PEOPLE COME HERE WHY DO THE WANT TO CHANGE US???
THEY SHOULD BE MORE LIKE US!!!!   COMFORN TO US NOT US TO THEM



   IF ITS NOT BROKE DONT MESS WITH IT

Can explain your defination of Agnostic please?

Go back to when the pledge was originally written.  Under God wasn't written in then. This isn't people coming over on boats, these are people like you and me.  And like the post a little bit ago said, majority rules! So there might be a change soon, whether it's broken or not. I am not saying I do or don't believe in God!  So don't put those words in my mouth!!!! And noone is trying to conform anyone.  By having that removed, does it affect your beliefs?  Does it change in any way your relationship with who you choose to serve as your higher?

Agnostic-Not saying there is, not saying there isn't.
My reason is I really am not concerned whether there is or not.  I am more into immediate pleasures as opposed to long term. ;D
Athiest does not believe in God.

YOU STILL DIDNT ANSWER THE QUESTION YOU JUST STATED HOW YOU SEE IT
 
 
 
 
 
   

So what's the question, why do I care what I pledge. Or why do people that are arguing with God being in the pledge care what they pledge?
I want to point out to you again that I never said I do not believe in God!!! >:(  It would have been nice for you to show some respect after that and change your question around rather than ask me the same question I just told you does not apply to me!!!!!!!!! >:(
Myself, I don't pledge, therefore I don't care if it says "one nation under the anti-christ"!!!
Other people, they have their own beliefs that God may not be a part of.
"If you don't believe in God, why do you care what you pledge" What the heck does that mean anyway?  Doesn't the pledge have to do with the country?  Why is God involved with it?  Not everyone in the country is involved with God.

DUDE VERY NICE DEBATE. IAM NOT MAD HOPE YOUR NOT.
    LETS GO BACK TO THE START   JULY 2 1776
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

I SEE THE WORD   CREATOR!!!!!  1776 HMMMMMMM

I don't see the words Pledge of Allegiance. Hmm.....
I don't know about you, but my creator was my mother and my father. How we're you created?

Here ya go!



The wording of the Pledge has been modified three times.

On June 14, 1923, at the First National Flag Conference held in Washington, D.C., under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words. The latter words were added on the ground that some foreign-born children and adults when giving the Pledge might have in mind the flag of their native land.In 1923, the words “the flag of the United States” were substituted for “my flag.”

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

In 1924, “of America” was added.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

 
On Flag Day June 14, 1954, the words “under God” were added
Wow a whole 52 years.  How could we break something like that. Dude my grand parents are older than under god being in the pledge.

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

Not saying there is, not saying there isn't. :)

Anyone else? :box.gif 
I am just here to debate.  Like I said before I could care less about what's on the dollar bill or the pledge. 

What a cool life you live.

OK OK YOU WIN I CAME FROM APES..
   
 
 
 
 
 
     ANYONE HAVE ANY BANNANS??     ITS ALL GOOD

;D 8)

Some thing else I would like to point out.   It's not neccesarily the word God that is an issue here.  It's the way it is used.  Let me start off by quoting a selected part of the definition  Chuck provided for the word Agnostic. :)
Quote from Chucknorris

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
 one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

[/quote]
As you can see, even this dictionary(which I would consider any dictionary to be considered a reliable source)says, "God or a god".
"one nation under God". This isn't giving much room for flexibility.  ;)
I'm not saying that it could be rewritten at this pont neccesarily, but if it was worded in a different way originally, maybe this would not be such an issue for some people.  ;D

Boy did I miss out?   ;D  I can see that we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.  And for those of you (Vforcedave) who choose to pray for me, THANK YOU.   :bow.gif  

Now, one last thing.  You guys are not seeing the whole picture.  This is about more than The Pledge of Allegiance or In God we Trust on our currency.  This is about religious fundamentalist trying to ram their values on me.  

Lets look at these subjects.  Abortion, school prayer, creationism, anti-gay rights.  These are just a few things that right wing christians are trying to force on other people.  I'm not trying to force anything on anyone just don't force anything on me.

Yes, I respect your rights to believe in what you want just please respect mine!   I just thank God that we live in this country, oops did I just say that. ;D   Peace brothers, now lets ride! :drive.gif

Man I like your style fish. This will be my last response on here. Peace! 8)
LOL. Just this thread! ;D ;D ;D

 :ThumbsUp.gif

FORD OR CHEVY , DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN, PEACE FREAK OR WAR MONGER, OHV RIDERS OR TREEHUGGERS, SHORT OR VERTICALLY CHALLENGED, FISHERMAN OR HUNTER, BUTCHER OR P.E.T.A. MEMBER::) ::) ::) ::) ::)CAN SOMEONE PLEASE PUT THIS DEAD HORSE OUT OF IT'S MISERY.  THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!! The bottom line here is that the largest MAJORITY of the world, whether it be christian, buddhist, muslim, jewish, hindu or whatever "religion", they all beleive in a god, whether they call him God, Muhammad, Buddha or jimmy cricket. IMHO religious types are just an opinion. They all beleive in a God or a higher power, just not written in the same speech. So to shorten this, I beleive the atheist's or agnostics are definitely the minority.

I Agree.

I've said the pledge allegiance every day since kindergarten and I don't plan on stopping now God bless this country.

and thank you too

are yall trying kill me or what? i come home to find 7 pages i have to read ??? it looks as though i have inspired a few folks and for that i am very thankful! to both sides of this debate i say it was handled well considering the nature of the subject ;)  i can take home with me that the majority is on my side :ThumbsUp.gif

one more thing.................................i see that alot of yall still chose not to voice your opinions.........................thats sad, this is your country were discussing

I know how I got here, and I also know how you got here too!


Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

another saying written by man doesnt mean a thing

Its nice to see , we are good enough of a group that we can talk about this
without anyone getting hurt. This is a great debate.We should all thank GOD we live in a country that we could do so. without the fear of a beheading..   I know I am..       JAKE BLUES

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/Chuck_Norris/cross1.jpg)

GOTTCHA BACK BROTHER :ThumbsUp.gif



OK THAT BEING SAID AND TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING,THEN NOTHING YOU WRITE HAS ANY MEANING, THE LAWS THAT ARE WRITTEN DOCUMENTS MEAN NOTHING. OH WAIT THIS IS THE COMPUTER AGE SO LET TYPE EVERYTHING AND THEN MAYBE IT WILL HAVE SOME MEANING,  BETTER YET SMOKE SIGNALS. CAUSE I SMELL SOMETHING COOK'N

There are obviousley more  8)beleivers 8) on here than " >:Dagnostics >:D", so by a majority rule there is a higher power. To keep debating this is trying to change the unchangeable. I beleive in God as most on here & in America do, the ones keeping this useless bickering alive are the ones trying to hit a nerve with the rest of us beleivers. To let this thread keep going is just feeding the flame of agnosticism. GOD BLESS EVERYONE, even the agnostics.

Hell is too hot for too long to be wrong!

I'm kind of amazed that this thread hasnt been deleted/locked yet. All I see is this as is a bickering about religion and politics... arent those no-nos on the discussion boards? We all know that this thread can go back and forth for 10000000 pages... everyone has thier own opinion and considering the gravity of the topic, I HIGHLY doubt anyone is going to change thier opinions anytime soon, not that anyone should.

Thank you SkyHigh!!

Oh this thread is being watched, by many, trust me. You know what, the young children are watching also. Don't they copy us older ones in their actions as they grow up?

Anytime! Someone had to say it, because this is truely getting rediculous.

Why should this be locked it is not a heated, nasty name calling, personal attacking, people banning debate. I really don't see the bickering either. For once several members joined in on a debated situation and respected everyones OPINIONS. That should be a good thing shouldn't it?

There is really nothing in here that can't be read by any of the younger members on here either. If anything this is one of those debates that the younger members can benefit from. People standing up for what they beleive in with out insulting each other. They can see that a discussion that includes religion can be debated by people with many views on it without being rude or name calling.

I personally in my opinion see nothing wrong with this thread. I think everyone that participated in it should be proud of themselves for not letting it go where some of these have gone!

I didnt say that it should be locked, I'm just suprised that it hasnt been. Chances are, it'll be locked eventually because topics like these 99% of the time get a bit dirty, lol.

It is healthy for children to see that their parents make a stand for something that is important to them, something that should be done more often these days.  It is about courage and honor in the face of calamity.

Where would we be in this country if good people did not stand for what is right?  Segregation? Slavery? Women who can't vote?  You better believe that those were HOT topics.  In the end, Truth always prevails.

I made that statement for a few that have taken it to the edge, right to it. Just a nudge to maybe get them to think first. Enough said.

The remainder of you, a debate is good, duke it out, just keep it clean please.

Nothing wrong with a healthy debate and expression of opinions. But from what I can tell it's 2, maybe 3 people "debating" with everyone else and it's going 'round and 'round. In my opinion (yeah, I got one too), the closest this site should get to religion is relaying the prayer you said as you were going over the handlebars or getting swallowed by mud.

But hey, maybe I'm the dummy because I keep checking on the thread!  :-\

One Nation Under GOD ,Government of the people,by the people, for the people. A Nation of peace and Prosperity built upon the principles of God, not just any God but the one spoken of in the Bible, yes WE have freedom of religion here in this great nation to worship, a tree if you like, but it is God, Jesus Christ that our forefathers have built this nation upon.


WOW!! Could you imagine the heat President Bush would take over a statement like that today (IN OUR NATION!)

I personally am Thankful that me and my family are able to live in such a great nation, that many hundreds of thousands of our fellow countrymen  have payed a great price for, that many of us will never even begin to relate to, so that we can enjoy our freedoms & liberties.

   In 1952, William Randolph Hearst began a campaign to bring about legislation to officially add the words under God to the pledge of allegiance, this was started because President Abraham Lincoln had added these same words to the end of his Gettysgurg Address (there's more to this story but this is the short version)
  In 1954 President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved the change on Flag Day and proclaimed, "In this way we are REaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and FUTURE; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

 It's truly amazing & saddening  to me that we in this country have gone so long as the silent majority that one man in California can stand up and voice an opinion  against the plege of allegiance & one nation under God on money,and others can take the Ten Commandments out of court houses, and Christmas songs can't be sung anymore etc. and literaly reshape how our nation was founded upon.     

 

They (liberal non beleivers) will NEVER shape my life of my children. We can shape the future of America by teaching our children what IS RIGHT!!!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!

 :Clap.gifWELL SAID!!!!!! I COULD NOT HELP BUT TO GET UP AND SHOUT WITH THAT ONE :Clap.gif

if you live your life the right way you dont have to worry about any thing any way you dont need to follow any relegion because if there is a god up there he does'nt or should not judge you for what you believe just how you run your life.

    Let me get this right. You refuse to say the pledge, you think in god we trust should be removed from our currency, you admit you would be a draft dodger. I must say you seem as anti american as they come. I bet you probably have no problem with the burning of our flag if someone chose to do so. Am I correct? I do agree that you definately have the right to believe in whatever you like and practice whatever religion you choose,that's one of the things that makes this country so great is that it even opens it's arms to people that would not defend it or respect it's beliefs but I also have the right to not associate myself with the type of people with your beliefs. You see,this great country gives us both EQUAL rights. Yes here we believe in Jesus Christ and over there they believe in Allah. The difference is here we give people with different religious beliefs the right to practice them and preech them openly. Over there if an American openly proclaims his Christianity you may see his head attached to a stick being parraded down the street. I respect your right because American sons and daughters have and continue to spill their blood giving you that right but I dont respect your choice to dishonor the sacrifices given by these true blooded Americans. You may be a nice guy whos knows, but you don't have the values of someone I would want to associate myself with. I have tried to make my point in a polite way without name calling and I hope I have. Good luck and may you never find yourself "SITTING" at a Nascar race surrounded by camouflaged men when the National Anthem is being played.

Fishahallic,  I personally don't think anyone is raming their religeous values on you or anyone else, but I dare say that we are at a very touchy cross road in our country, let me explain, This country from the start was built upon our forefathers faith ,their belief in God , Jesus Christ and the teachings of the bible (what better laws to live by than the 10 commandment) if we all followed them I'd imagine prisons wouldn,t be populated and we wouldn't be in the quandry we are today! We grew a great nation from very humble beginings into the most powerful nation on earth, and the one common denominator that we had in our early exsistance was the helping hand of God and our forefathers belief in him and their great faith in him. There is a book that some on here may want to read maybe not but its called UNDER GOD by Toby Mac & Micheal Tait, over 350 pages of examples of letters, speeches, quotes of the very men and women, black & white who grew this nation into what it is today, you might be suprised at all the people written about in this book.



The reason it wasn't written in a more flexible form is because they mean't, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, maybe you don't believe in him but the founding fathers of this great nation did!!


The road to hell is paved with good intentions!  ;)

I'm sure it is, but how does anyone really know that? Who knows how many times the Bible has been altered, edited, cropped, etc. Not to mention all the books of the Bible (and other religions Bibles [EX: Koran]) that have  been lost over the ages. The truth is all in how people perceive it. With all the religions out there, every one of them thinks they are the "true" religion... who's really right and who's really wrong? It's all in what you believe and just like everything else in this world, everyone has thier own opinions on what is right for them, including religion and politics. 

Is this debate going to continue through this week as well?? Good Luck

very good point. IF YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THIS THREAD then dont click on it! let the rest of us enjoy our debate  ;D

I wasn't going to reply to this again, but dreth, you got me going again, so this one is for you:

One Nation, "Under GOD" 
 
One day, a six-year-old girl was sitting in a classroom.
The teacher was explaining evolution to the children.
The teacher asked a little boy:
 
TEACHER:
Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
 
TOMMY:
Yes
 
TEACHER:
Tommy, do you see the grass outside?

TOMMY:
Yes.
 
TEACHER:
Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
 
TOMMY:
Okay.
(He returned a few minutes later)
Yes, I saw the sky.
 
TEACHER:
Did you see GOD?
 
TOMMY:
 No.
 
TEACHER:
That's my point.
We can't see GOD because HE isn't there.
HE just doesn't exist.
 
A little girl spoke up wanting to ask the boy some questions. The
teacher agreed.
 
LITTLE GIRL:
Tommy, do you see the tree outside?

TOMMY:
Yes.

LITTLE GIRL:
Tommy do you see the grass outside?
 
TOMMY:
Yessssss!
 
 LITTLE GIRL:
Did you see the sky?
 
TOMMY:
Yessssss!
 
LITTLE GIRL:
Tommy, do you see the Teacher ?
 
TOMMY: Yes
 
LITTLE GIRL:
Do you see her brain?

TOMMY:
No.
 
LITTLE GIRL:
Then according to what we were taught today,
she doesn't have one.
 

II CORINTHIANS 5:7 "
FOR WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT"

The original dead sea scrolls were found in 1946 intact inside jars of clay.  Unfortunately, they don't teach "facts" in school anymore, so I doubt many people know about this because it is "religion".
 
The doors of hell are only locked from the inside, God gains no pleasure by people choosing to enter.

 :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :Clap.gif :Clap.gif

Ok, call me a hypocrite!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You know, I had a heck of alot typed here to debate with Mrs. Cableguy. To start this shorter version though, let me say thank you for callin me an anti-american!!!!  >:( >:( >:(  I always enjoy being called names.(for people that have peas for brains,thats called sarcasm) This is rediculous.  I can't even tell you how many times I have said I could care less about if it stays or goes.  I don't refuse the pledge.  (Once again,it would be respectful to actually read what I wrote!!!!)The only thing you had right out of that, was the fact that I would not let someone force me to put a gun in my hand and take another mans life.  You know what, I could go on and on just laying into Mrs.Cableguy, but honestly, I am so insulted by this guy talking to me as if I am some kind of idiot.  That was probably one of the most rediculous replies that has been on here. I mean true blooded American?!?!?!what the crap???And I like how you go on about me being dishonorable. Thanks for judging! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I am dying to whole heartedly reply, but ah.....screw it. Nothing I have said so far is getting through. Don't know if it's thick heads,   or just the lack of I.Q. 

Grizzlygator wrote-
The reason it wasn't written in a more flexible form is because they mean't, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, maybe you don't believe in him but the founding fathers of this great nation did!!
Did your mommy or daddy have to help you with that one?  That's the whole issue here.  It's labeling everyone as christians.   :Wacko.gif

Well WPBSMOKA, I happen to be 39 yrs old. so my mommy and daddy didnt have to speak for me, are yours doing it for you??? :dunno.gif I wasn't labeling anybody just making a statement which in fact is true, many let me clerify MOST of our founding fathers relied upon there great faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, It may be hard pill  ;)  to swallow for you but this nation was built upon Christianity no ifs, ands or buts (thanks mommy for that one).
I think the bottom line here from my stand point is this, Our nation was indeed founded upon Chritian beliefs, no one can deny that it wasn't, its importance to the earliest of settlers is quite evident look it up, yes we are a free nation, to speak, look, say, work, worship, atheism, live etc. what ever basically your heart desires as long as its not against the law, but don't deny or try to change our american heritage/history by taking God out of it, God is as much a part of this great county as any important person you can name in our short history. No body is LABELING anybody here, if I go to Russia does that make me Russian, Going to a football game dosn't make you a football player, being an american also dosn't imply that you are a Chritian either, as well as being an american dosen't make me a person that believes in abortion even though our country has more than anybody (1.5 million a year!) in the whole world.

bravo.

How about reading over everything I wrote.  This country is forcing to be labeled blah blah blah.  Everything that people keep bringing up in defense has already been shot down a few days ago.  All you have to do is go back and see that I already covered the labeling issue a few days ago.  And we already covered that the reason why people founded this country was to get away from one that was forcing them to only have one religious view point.  Like I said, I have already shot all of this down.  Now this is just  a waste of my time.  People coming to me with the same stuff that has already been discussed.  I won't even be checking this thread again.  Pathetic really.  If you have a dispute, send me a PM. Peace
You could at least give the courtesy of knowing whats already been discussed on here before you try jumping in the end of it. 

I am definately christian but in WPBSMOKA's defense: This country was foudned by christians and most of the laws were developed by christians. The founding fathers did how ever try to make it very clear that there should be a seperation of church and state. They saw what happened in England when the church and government were run together. They wanted to make sure that didnt happen again.

Ahhhh, if only WPBSMOKA could hear you now. But, since he won't be checking this thread again . . .  ;D

I appologize WPBSMOKA I didn't realize there was a time frame to reply on this board and or on certain subjects, this is however an open disscussion board and I did exersice my right to discuss! I don't have a dispute with anyone here, and I recognize everyones free will and speech & opinions, more power to you and yours, just remember you did come back to this thread and you did reply/quote using my statements which I suppose gives me the right to a rebuttle, even though! some items have been touched upon previously. peace 

Well said, glad to hear your family never forced English on the original Americans. What Native Indian dialect did you guys learn?
 

 ]I never knew that I was required to say the pledge of allegiance.  Hmm.... As a matter of fact, I'm 22 years old and have never said the pledge.   You're quote from reply # 55. Now check replies # 63 and finally [/b] # 96. You state that you don't and won'ts say the pledge.[/ Man you're 22 and think you know everything about anything. I was correct in saying you refuse to say the pledge, you don't think God should be on our currency and that you would be a draft dodger!!! I simply stated what you allready stated yourself. And yes with those quotes you do "SEEM" unpatriotic. Whats a matter did I hit a nerve. I did not resort to name calling little boy you did. Is that what happens when someone catches you with you're hand in the cookie jar. While you seem to be educated you can't hide from yourself. You contradict almost everything you debated about then when the heat gets turned up a little you resort to name calling and then take you're toys and go home. Okay poleSMOKA. Now let me tell you what I really think about you since you could'nt handle a little criticism directed in a nice way. You seem like a little spoiled baby that was bullied throughout life and now is old enough to do what he wants so you defy everything that is of sound morals and instead you go against it. Mrs Cableguy??? Is that the best you can do you little stay in the bathroom for 30 minutes a pop pimple face still trying to act like a big boy wearing pull ups little sissy. If you can't handle a heated debate that touches on issues that tend to rile up a few good ole boys or that peak the  interest of a few well versed ,articulate concerned citizens then go pop the rest of your zits while practicing you're "whats up ladies " line. Not only do some of you're statements SEEM unpatriotic to me but I also think you act like a coward by name calling and then leaving because you were called out. Is that what you were looking for poleSMOKA? Love Mrs Cableguy.

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Yea, thanks for refreshing my memory with the pledge.  That's true I remeber making a statement that I wouldn't say the pledge.  As far as knowing everything, I've been discussing one subject with everyone this whole time.  Just because your impressed with my intelligence, doesn't mean that I think I know it all.  This subject is just common sense if you look at it unbiasedly. Telling me I am an anti american wouldn't be calling me a name? What am I contradicting exactly?  I know with the self defense, and not saying the pledge comment. But what else? Haha, man I have to admit, the whole zit scenario is rather amusing.  Talk about hitting a nerve though.  I wasn't trying to turn this into a name calling match or anything(even though that might be your only chance to come out ahead here).  You called me anti American, so just to point out that you called me a name I made a slight alteration to your display name.  Only twice I believe too.  And I'm still not going to resort to trying to call you some names.  I was never picked on in school.(except for one time I was on LSD and turned into a punching bag over a girl)Pick up lines,lol, ya here's the only pick up line I use, I'm Drunk!To be honest, I think that reply was totally uncalled for.  I was upset over you asking me questions or bringing up stuff that was already discussed.  You turned around and just made a valiant attempt to hit a nerve with trying to play out my adolescent years.  Nice try.  I don't get fired up really over some name calling.  I can't really respond well with this little sleep.  But I will finish by saying that this is turning into a discussion about me.  In my opinion, MR. Cableguy,  I think your posts are just a desperate plea for attention.  I mean all of that back there was totally uncalled for.  I found it amusing, but sad at the same time.  But I will say I am impressed with your vocabulary.(for those of you with pea for brains, thats not sarcasm)I might make another attempt at a respnose when I am not recovering from a long night of sinning.

Now this is just  a waste of my time.  People coming to me with the same stuff that has already been discussed.  I won't even be checking this thread again.  Pathetic really.  If you have a dispute, send me a PM. Peace
 Reply # 148.      I am done with you. I call a truce before it gets to ugly. We obviously don't see eye to eye and rather then continue the verbal jabs I've decided to let it go. Good luck.

Mark Twain joked about putting a dog and cat together in a cage to see how they'd get along. They did fine so he added a bird, a pig and a goat. They all did well until he added a Baptist, a Presbyterian and a Catholic - and soon there wasn't a living thing left! Seriously, there's nothing Satan enjoys more than causing division by pitting Christian against Christian, often over insignificant issues.

      Notice, before His crucifixion Jesus didn't pray for his disciples to stay loyal or dedicated. No, he prayed that they'd remain united in their love for one another: "That they all may be one, as You...are in Me, and I in You...that the world may believe" (Jn 17:21 NKJV). Jesus recognized the fallacy of claiming to love God without loving your brothers and sisters. He knew that the church can't fulfill its mission of reaching the lost, if its members are at one another's throat. Listen: "The members of the body, though they are many, are one...For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body." Jesus puts it another way: "Love one another. In the same way I loved you...This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples" (Jn 13: 34-35 TM). If we have the right doctrine but the wrong attitude, we'll alienate the very people we hope to attract. A divided, confused world can only be reached by united, loving Christians!