Idiots Continue To Ruin It For Us

[Anoriginal]

As many of you know, I have a camp deep inside the Big Cypress. I am basically in the geographic middle of the place. Last weekend was opening general gun. I couldn't go but, several of my firends who have camps not far from mine made it in. It's about 15 miles in to get to my camp. However, located very close to my camp is the NPS backcountry camp.

This backcountry camp was donated to the NPS by a private property owner upon his death some years ago. It is the place the park rangers stay while inside the preserve. The problem is that this camp has now become a "destination" for many people to try to find. The GPS numbers have been handed around and now, everyone and their brother with an ATV tries to find it.

I've posted several times on this site about running across people on ATV's showing up at this camp (which is private property) at late hours, drunk and generally behaving incorrectly. Well, this weekend was no exception.

Apparently, on Saturday afternoon, a group of ATV's showed up at the NPS camp in a highly intoxicated state. They began riding all around the NPS camp, across the porches and even used lumber on site to build a jump. They threw trash, beer bottles and other garbage all over the place before another camp owner showed up and asked them to leave as it was private property. The ATV riders were belligerent but, did leave. Then, once they were gone, the camp owner picked up the trash in the yard and contacted the NPS via cell phone.

Now, thanks to those idiots and the many idiots on ATV's before them, the camp is now gated off and cameras have been installed to catch people trespassing. This couldn't happen at a worse time. We're currently battling to get a new place to ride opened on the edge of the Big Cypress while still fighting to keep the Big Cypress itself open to ATV use. Most people who come into the Big Cypress are decent folks. However, more and more we're seeing people on ATV's act stupidly and drive yet another nail in our coffin.

If any of you know these guys, tell them what a bunch of fools they are. Let them know that, because of people like them, it won't be long before we lose another place to ride. The single biggest common denominator for problems in the Big Cypress is an ATV. That's just a sad fact and I hate it.

[digginfool]

I've never been to the Big Cypress but after having driven up 19, I know it's got to be a beautiful place to explore.  I feel as helpless about Big Cypress as I did about Holeylands; I knew what was coming but couldn't do anything about it.  I don't know whether to try to get a permit or just let it go so I don't have to go through the pain of losing another place I loved to ride.  It really sucks.  As I said about Holeylands, the ones that will scream the loudest are the guilty.   

[lswjth2]

Unfortunately I have witnessed this myself and they were not kids in this instance, rather grown men in their 40's and 50's. I have also seen them camp out at Dusty's old landing strip and being belligerent when they were told it was private property. In my opinion it's just a matter of time before the NPS says atv's for hunting only like they do at holylands today. Please be respectful of private property and your surroundings and obey ALL laws while in the preserve. The Antis are looking to do everything possible to keep closing down what little is left...

[buythisatvstuff]

It's sad that some people are so ignorant and willing to ruin it for everyone else.

[Anoriginal]

Yeah, the Big Cypress is well on it's way to being cut off from ATV use. Just a matter of time. Idiots just can't seem to help themselves.

[mrbones]

It's not the ATV's but the degenerates riding them that ruin it. 

[Anoriginal]

It's not the ATV's but the degenerates riding them that ruin it. 

Most definitely.

[rdm225]

I would be willing to bet this was a group of beaners from Miami

[Keeter]

I would be willing to bet this was a group of beaners from Miami

[Anoriginal]

I would be willing to bet this was a group of beaners from Miami

It's all kinds. Not just one group of people. However, these folks were asking "which way is 8th Street"?

[Keeter]

I would be willing to bet this was a group of beaners from Miami

It's all kinds. Not just one group of people. However, these folks were asking "which way is 8th Street"?

What did you tell them??  Head south of Key West 50 miles......

[gery350]

I would be willing to bet this was a group of beaners from Miami

thats right. no self respecting hillbilly would do that. he'd be to busy doing his sister, cousin, mother, or brother.

[miker]

Man, I went to ONF a few years ago and couldnt believe the amount of idiots racing around the parking lot without helmets.  Definitely not a place i will bring my family again.  I can see why the dirt bikers look down on the quads.  I know there are bonehead dirt bikers out there too, but there are way more quadders screwing things up for us.

[bigAl300ex]

That's pretty messed up that on this forum people choose to blame certain nationalities or "beaners" as some of you like to call them on messing up riding areas.  I've gone riding in Evergades National Park, Croom, Ocala, Badluck Prairie (when you could ride there), Holey Lands, and lots of other places where many of the people trashing and doing screwed up things that closed some of these places down where of "white" skin color.  That doesn't make me think that "hillbillies" or "white trailer trash" folks are to blame for the destruction or closing down of riding areas.  I was born and raised in south Florida, but I refuse to blame "certain" people in the ATV community for what eventually will close down the few remaining riding areas.  I use to live off Tamiami Trail (8th st) and not once did I or my riding buddies make a drive to ENP to tresspass or cause destruction there.  Some of you might want to think a little before you make statements on this website.   

[Anoriginal]

Like I said, it's all types. Not just any group or skin color. I didn't see these guys over last weekend so I have no idea what race, color or creed they were. They asked where 8th Street was...that's not an indication of anything other than stupidity.

I've posted several times on this site about dummies doing this sort of thing in the Big Cypress. I can tell you that I've experienced several different races and creeds all acting like morons. Lets not make this into something it shouldn't be. It's got nothing to do with ethnicity. It's got everything to do with stupidity.

I agree with bigAl300ex's assesment of the situation. A few bad apples don't spoil the entire bunch when it comes to a person's race, etc. However, (unfortunate for all of us) when all of the bad apples are riding ATV's, it has a tendency to ruin all of it for the rest of us.

[foreman1]

I've been hearing the same comments from other camp owners in the area.
The hardening of these trails has turned Old Monument Grade into a freeway for idiots to go further north than they ever would've dared for fear of getting lost.
Time will tell what the end result will be.

[Mars]

Sounds like it's time for an accidental shooting.

[Gato]

That's pretty messed up that on this forum people choose to blame certain nationalities or "beaners" as some of you like to call them on messing up riding areas.  I've gone riding in Evergades National Park, Croom, Ocala, Badluck Prairie (when you could ride there), Holey Lands, and lots of other places where many of the people trashing and doing screwed up things that closed some of these places down where of "white" skin color.  That doesn't make me think that "hillbillies" or "white trailer trash" folks are to blame for the destruction or closing down of riding areas.  I was born and raised in south Florida, but I refuse to blame "certain" people in the ATV community for what eventually will close down the few remaining riding areas.  I use to live off Tamiami Trail (8th st) and not once did I or my riding buddies make a drive to ENP to tresspass or cause destruction there.  Some of you might want to think a little before you make statements on this website.   

only when they get back to the trucks and you see rebel flags on the front bumper, stickers on the rear windows of bass and deer and titles and names on the doors Like "Earl" husband on the driver side and "Charlene" Sister & Wife on the passenger side do you know then that they are  HAHA 

[renmus]

The powers that be who would close the location do not care about heritage.  They see an idiot rider and that is enough.  Don't change the topic to become some hate crap.

[Anoriginal]

Well, like I said, this doesn't have anything to do with race, color or creed. just stupidity.

I've seen groups of idiots in the Big Cypress who were not following the rules and misbehaving on countless occasions. Those groups have been comprised of Hispanics and Caucasians. It's unfair to attribute stupidity to just once race, color or creed as there appears to be plenty to go around for everyone.

Also, the last time I checked, I didn't see any of those stickers or names on any of the trucks parked at Monroe Station. Usually, it's all really nice, expensive stuff owned by people who care. We just seem to be getting more and more idiots these days coming into the Big Cypress. Pretty soon, I see the entire thing being closed to ATV.

And please, don't try to make this something it's not with the childish racist comments. I'd hate to have to lock the thread.

[zman03]

I hope this solidifies the fact that whether you ride 2,3,4 wheels its pretty clear what is appropriate ettiquette when you are recreating in an area that allows this type of use. We all know right from wrong and the people who feel as strongly and passionately as they do should get together and form a group,club,organization,whatever like they do throughout the country. This group of people would be like stewards of the said area and would assist the NPS in whatever to make sure this type of behavior or incident is avoided or curtailed in the future. I take real pride and care to be an example when I ride and Rick I hope you will vouche for me. This I hope will be an opportunity for someone smart and start an organized something to work with the NPS and have them EVENTUALLY one day say IF IT WASENT FOR THE "OFF ROADERS" what would we do? This could be a GOOD THING if we were to get together and have a  ORGANIZED GROUP!!!!!!!!    A true set of individuals with the same  things in mind.   I hope I get the chance to meet many of the people on here and one day you will see there are good riders in every race, kinda vehicle and from all areas of the country. What happened occurred because of LACK OF SECURITY, Thats all. If this area has had problems like this in the past, WHAT HAS ANYONE DONE ABOUT IT OTHER THAN POST A THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!     I truly hope to be able to meet with more people that feel this passionately about the recreational activity I enjoy so much.

[renmus]

I hope this solidifies the fact that whether you ride 2,3,4 wheels its pretty clear what is appropriate ettiquette when you are recreating in an area that allows this type of use. We all know right from wrong and the people who feel as strongly and passionately as they do should get together and form a group,club,organization,whatever like they do throughout the country. This group of people would be like stewards of the said area and would assist the NPS in whatever to make sure this type of behavior or incident is avoided or curtailed in the future. I take real pride and care to be an example when I ride and Rick I hope you will vouche for me. This I hope will be an opportunity for someone smart and start an organized something to work with the NPS and have them EVENTUALLY one day say IF IT WASENT FOR THE "OFF ROADERS" what would we do? This could be a GOOD THING if we were to get together and have a  ORGANIZED GROUP!!!!!!!!    A true set of individuals with the same  things in mind.   I hope I get the chance to meet many of the people on here and one day you will see there are good riders in every race, kinda vehicle and from all areas of the country. What happened occurred because of LACK OF SECURITY, Thats all. If this area has had problems like this in the past, WHAT HAS ANYONE DONE ABOUT IT OTHER THAN POST A THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!     I truly hope to be able to meet with more people that feel this passionately about the recreational activity I enjoy so much.

well, you have the group in Ocala that Grizzly Bear works with in Ocala as a template. 

[lswjth2]

Zman I do vouch for you and I personally know that you have always tried to fight a good fight. I sometimes wonder if the NPS actually wants our help or not. I offered to give them a VHF radio and antenna as along as they were willing to monitor an agreed upon channel,sometimes our cell phones don't work but we can talk via VHF and they turned it down. I had approached Ed Clark, the head ranger at the park about having a volunteer organization to help the park and at first he was all for it and that's died? I will try to revisit this with the park and let you know, maybe we can get some like minded people here and start doing some volunteer work and show the positive force that we could be....Rick

[Anoriginal]

The NPS isn't interested and will not accept any assistance from us in any way, shape or form. Many of us have approached the NPS about some form of assistance in the past. They're not interested and have no mechanism in place to deal with it.

I am afraid the damage has aleady been done when it comes to ATV use in the BICY. The kind of stuff I reported in my initial post happens every weekend down there. It's getting worse as time wears on and more idiots begin to flock to the BICY. Unfortunately, the overall mentality of many of the ATV riders that travel into the BICY these days is poor and lacks respect. Like the Holylands, the single largest common denominator for problems in the BICY is an ATV. Do away with the ATV's and you'll do away with most of the problems. Again, the Holeylands are a prime example. Just talk to anyone who has a camp in the Holeylands these days and they'll tell you it's great now that the ATV's have been banned.

I hate it but, it's true.

[zman03]

I was told by many agencies I delt with in the past that "lack of persistence" was the main factor for hesitation coupled with disorganiztion amongst the "off-rod vehicle community. We should not be complacent or simply give up hope. If we do nothing about the problem you cant be a possible solution for it!!!!!!!!!!!!  This is simply not going to solve itself!!!!!!!!!      Please dont just make this about ATV's   This is about adopting a set standard for (sport-quads,4x4,2-wheeled vehicles,and Utv's).  Everyone that rides there regardless of the vehicle will either follow the rules or their priveledges will be revoked!  The volunteer issue seems like we need to take this to a higher authority, but we must do this as a organized group with the main focus or goal being the Park and safety. This is basic risk management!!!!!!!!!!        I thank you rick for your voucher and also speak for you any day!!!!!!!!!!!!   

[Anoriginal]

Well, having been actively involved with the BICY ORV plan for many years, I can tell  you that the only real ORV problem they have revolves around ATV's and side by sides. The other ORV's (buggies) are not a problem.

You're right about the lack of organization issue. We (the ATV community) are the most disorganized ORV group I've ever experienced. In addition, even when we do manage to get somewhat organized, there always exists a very large group within us that tends to ruin any ground we gain.

There's already a very clear and concise set standard for ORV use in the BICY. It's really a no brainer. People forget that the BICY isn't an ORV park in any way, shape or form. It was never intended to be a place to "ride" or to off road. The NPS isn't interested in anyone volunteering to ride around in the BICY under the guise of "volunteering for ORV control". I hate to say it, but I don't blame them. ATV's are nothing but a great big headache in the BICY and for the NPS. And that's coming from someone that uses his ATV in the BICY all the time.

If they banned ATV's tomorrow, (which I am sure they will very shortly) I wouldn't be too upset. I know I'd feel more safe and secure with respect to my private property in the BICY. And again, it kills me to say that.

[AintSkeered]

I've come to know BC via ATV and love it's beauty. I share your concerns over the destruction of such a habitat by ATVs and won't lose any sleep when ATVs are banned. However, when you Google Big Cypress, you'll see a link to your right, which redirects you to conservation groups who actively-oppose any/all OHV use there. The lawsuit is old news, but, their efforts continue. The tree-huggers/Bambi savers show pictures of destruction caused by OHVs(buggies), not ATVs. OHVers and ATVers should be united against those groups and use more peer pressure to make the idiots follow the rules/laws! One way is to alert NPS via cellphone when you witness idiots destroying our parks or creating life/safety issues. If NPS chooses to respond to our calls by banning ATVs(instead of appreciating additional pairs of eyes), at least we didn't just sit and watch it happen. Similar symbiotic relationships have existed between hunters and ATVers for many years at places like River Ranch, ONF and Appalachicola Forest.

[Anoriginal]

I make calls to the NPS all the time when I see people acting improperly, operating ORV's without an ORV sticker or breaking the rules. Unfortunatley, over the past 6 years of making such calls, I've only had to call about ATV's.

The same class of people who ruined the Holeylands are the same ones that are well on their way to getting ATV's banned from the BICY.

[AintSkeered]

No question about the number of ATVers that don't get it. But, as your driving down the designated trails in BC, you'll notice the vast numbers of illegal buggy trails. Four men on one buggy may have less impact on the environment than 4 ATVs(maybe), but, one man driving each Jeep/Samurai in a pack certainly have a greater impact on the environment. In other words, when they ban ATVs, we'll still be driving our Jeeps and Samurais there. I say, raise permit fees to discourage bottom feeders and increase enforcement efforts with the proceeds.

[Anoriginal]

Actually there's no such thing as an illegal trail at this time. However, once we transition to the designated trail system, that will change.

The problem isn't with the environmental impact. The problem is in the class of people you get with one form of ORV verses another. It is just a sad fact that you get a higher concentration of morons on ATV's in the BICY than on any other form of ORV.

I agree that raising the fees would help. However, one of the key problems we're seeing is the sheer number of unpermitted ATV's coming in the BICY. For those types, only catching them and fining them HUGE will cure them.

[Gato]

well looks like that is what needs to be done if they are not patrolling it simply banning atvs is not gonna stop the illegals from riding in. They cry about budget cuts but if they hike the fees they should be able to patrol more offen

[MiamiE]

I own an ATV myself and frequent Turner River, Bear Island, and Stair Steps riding. I can see with confidence there are some serious idiots riding out there. They throw trash everywhere, think its a big mud pit, disrespect others property within the BC, and ride WAY to fast. I cannot wait until I can afford an airboat or buggy and they ban ATV's. Game will become less skittish as well.

[AintSkeered]

Current permit fee is $50 and they only sell 2,000. So, how much patrolling of 720,000-acres can be done with $100,000? I'd imagine that you'd need to double or triple the permit fees to pay for salaries, vehicles and fuel.

[MiamiE]

I was told they didnt sell out their permits for 2009 until September. I think they should do $100 fee per year.

[Anoriginal]

Like I've said all along, I wouldn't complain one bit if they banned ATV's in the BICY. In fact, at this point, I can honestly say it would probably be the best thing that could happen for the future of sustained ORV use in the BICY. And again, that's coming from someone who has ATV's for the main purpose of using them in the BICY.

Buggies are not the problem. For the most part, they use what will be designated trails. The reason is that the trails are usually the safest and most direct route to get somewhere anyway. Also, you find that there's a huge difference (in most cases...there are always exceptions) between the attitude of a person who has a ton of blood, sweat, tears and money in a buggy they built with their own hands verses someone who just had credit good enough get an ATV.

What I mean is this... The buggy crowd is usually in the BICY to hunt. In addition, they've got more time invested in their buggy. Also, it's usually an older crowd that tends to show a lot more respect for the Preserve as well as it's rules and regulations. More importantly, those buggy owners tend to show a HUGE amount of respect for the private property within the BICY. Remember, camps in the BICY (if you can find one) start at around $100k and go up from there.

The ATV group, on the other hand, is different. They're younger, not as interested in hunting, treat the BICY like a riding area and not a preserve, constantly break the rules and regulations and show little to no respect for private property.

Until recently, with the influx of ATV use in the BICY, we didn't have a trash problem in there. You just didn't see it. Now, you see it more and more. I've come across groups of ATV guys parked in an area, none or few of them have the ORV sticker. Most riding double. Well, once they leave, I've gone back to where they were hanging out and picked up all the trash they leave behind. This just doesn't happen down there with the buggy guys. Also, before the influx of ATV use, we never had a problem with trespassing or break ins. Now, we have it all the time. We know it's the ATV group because we catch them on the game cameras around the camps.

I've pulled in to Monroe Station to unload my buggy and had a few truckloads of guys pull in behind me with ATV's. Most of them sport bikes, none of them with stickers. I cross 41, unlock the gate (it's locked with a combo lock) and then locked it behind me, only to have the ATV guys come across the road and yell for me to leave the gate open for them so they can get in. I lock it anyway and head on. Later, those same guys come flying past me on the hard trails, way in excess of the 15 mph speed limit. One only has to look at the berms kicked up on the rock trails to see for themself that the ATV crowd is breaking the speed limit all the time.

What needs to happen (if they don't ban them first) is some serious enforcement of the rules. They're in the process of stepping up patrols and writing tickets. However, once they start seizing a few ATV's for repeat offenders, things may change. Don't forget, when you get in trouble in the BICY, it's a federal issue. They don't play nice with you like the State would in a WMA. The Feds will take your stuff and you'll never get it back. And once they ban them, you won't have to worry about too many illegal riders. Get caught in there with something you're not supposed to have and you'll really be in a heap of trouble as far as fines go.

I've had lengthy conversations with ton of people with the NPS as well as others with a stake in the BICY about the ATV problem. The solution everyone seems to come up with is the same...ban them. It's obvious that no amount of rules or regulations are going to be followed by the ATV community. In fact, things are getting worse every weekend. Everyone is dreading the upcoming "riding season". You know, cool weather and dry conditions in the BICY. Already people are having their camps trespassed and broken into. Riders are getting lost and having to be rescued. Trails are getting torn up, etc.. Meanwhile, I've been to to sites on the web that have pictures posted of people on ATV's picnicking in private camp's front yards like they owned the place with postings talking about "the neat camp they found". Come on!

Like I said, I've got $15k in two bikes that are used primarily for getting in and out of the BICY. In addition, there are several other camp owners I know who have them as well for getting to and from camp. We love them. But, if losing the privilegeto ride ATV's in the BICY means we preserve the privilege to use other forms of ORV's in the BICY for the future, I say ban them.  I am tired of sticking up and fighting for people who are too dumb to care or do anything for themselves. It's the same types that ruined the Holeylands. We all know who they are. I hate them and would like to put my size 14 in their butts dry and sideways personally. But, I fear they'd be too stupid to realize what it was for.

[rubicon500kid]

i hope they band atv's soon in BC if not we will loose one of the most beautiful place's in the world !!!!!


i have gone out to BC since i was 5  and i can tell you there is def a dif. soooooooo manny  idiots  now. just in the past 4-5 years its changed  it sucks when people think a national preserves is a mud pit...  when i go out there i dont use an atv or buggy to go "mudding" i use it to hunt and get me to point a-b(camp,stand ect......) sucks they are ruining it for use

[686RAPTOR]

I would be willing to bet this was a group of beaners from Miami
[/quot

Majority of us beaners dont ride around that area.

[Gato]

to say that the atv crowd is younger and anymore disrespectful is wrong also I have seen plenty of groups were ALL are older middle aged driving with 1 hand with a beer and 1 holding the bars, I agree the issue of the PP but Like someone else said on here it is not the bike it is the driver. If everything was so easy to blame on the younger crowd Lets just add all the road racers lets make the driving age limit to 21 will that help. NO, it is all about catching the perps. in action raise it to $100 or $150 that will keep some out at the same time help with funds to patrol more offen. IMO I have only gone 1 time and do not really know anything out there but I feel for the people with the properties going thru it, But maybe the cameras will help with catching some or at the very least help ID them some how.

[Anoriginal]

As I said in my post, there's exceptions to every rule. However, the problems (regardless of age) all seem to revolve around an ATV.

[Chillinthemost]

Damn Analriginal are you going to start an attack on the NRA next for all those nasty weapons that we are killing each other with?  You sound like such an old fart. You must be going through menopause.
  I'm sure when someone pulls up to your camp and sees you and all your "hunting buddys" laying out in the nude, the only reason they store your waypoints is to steer very clear of your camp in the future.

[Anoriginal]

I know I sound like an old woman bu, I just get pizzed off when 20 percent ruin it for the other 80. And Chillin is usually the first one to get naked at my camp and then chase us all around asking us to rub lotion on his back.

[MiamiE]

I passed by Monroe Station on the way to pick up an ATV and WOW was that lot packed! Lots of buggies out there today!

[Anoriginal]

Thanksgiving weekend has always been a traditional hunting weekend down there. Usually filled with hunters.