Is This really happening?

[Anoriginal]

Tell you what, I'll start with the debunking. Lets deal with the religious part first which is the first part of the movie. Regardless of what your beliefs may be, these items are belief neutral and therefore not influenced by the same.

False statement: Horus was born of a virgin
Fact: There are two separate birth accounts in regards to Horus, neither depict a virgin birth

False statement: Horus was born on Dec 25th
Fact: Horus' birth was actually celebrated during the month of Khoiak, (October/November)
( Dec 25 is mentioned no where in the bible, irrelevant)

False statement: Horus had 12 disciples
Fact: They were not disciples at all - they were the twelve signs of the zodiac which became associated with Horus, a sky god.
(the 12 disciples represented the 12 tribes of Judah)

False statement: Horus was crucified
Fact: Horus is never said to have been crucified, nevertheless to have died.

Better yet, look at what the film maker posted on his own website:

"Zeitgeist was created as a nonprofit filmiac expression to inspire people
to start looking at the world from a more critical perspective and to understand that very often
things are not what the population at large think they are. The information in Zeitgeist
was established over a year long period of research and the current Source page on
this site lists the basic sources used / referenced and the Interactive Transcript includes
exact source references and further information.

Now, it's important to point out that there is a tendency to simply disbelieve things that are
counter to our understanding, without the necessary research performed.
For example, some information contained in Part 1 and Part 3, specifically, is not obtained
by simple keyword searches on the Internet. You have to dig deeper. For instance,
very often people who look up "Horus" or "The Federal Reserve" on the Internet
draw their conclusions from very general or biased sources. Online encyclopedias or text book
Encyclopedias often do not contain the information contained in Zeitgeist. However, if one takes
the time to read the sources provided, they will find that what is being presented is
based on documented evidence. Any corrections, clarifications & further points regarding the film
are found on the Clarifications page. Non-Profit DVDs / Free Video Downloads are
available through the Downloads page.

That being said, It is my hope that people will not take what is said
in the film as the truth, but find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized.

Thank You"

Kind of says it all huh?

Don't worry, there's more to come. I never make a determination as to anyone's intellect or anything's truth without an investigation.

[Anoriginal]

Here's a little more for everyone:

"The allegations concerning Jesus in the zeitgeist movie can be summarized as follows: The Jesus proclaimed in the Bible is not a historical person, and in fact He never existed. Instead, the Jesus found in the pages of the New Testament gospels is an invention of the biblical authors who painstakingly copied attributes of ancient pagan deities and created a new god to be worshipped. Jesus mirrors various pagan deities in very exacting ways such as the manner of his birth, life, death, and resurrection.

Further, the movie asserts that astrology is the foundation behind much of the writing in Scripture. The end conclusion is that Christianity is a myth just as all the pagan religions that came before it and therefore is untrue. To address these assertions, it is helpful to break them up into three groups:

• The subject of astrology and the Bible.
• The supposed similarities between Jesus and mythological heroes.
• The evidence for the truthfulness of the gospel accounts.

The zeitgeist (the name is German and means `the spirit of the age` or literally `time (Zeit) “spirit” (Geist)) movie places great emphasis on how the Bible is based on astrology and the stars. Perhaps one of the most telling statements in all the Bible regarding the importance God places on the stars is found in Genesis 1:16b: “He made the stars also.” This translation is from the NASB, with the italicized words “He made” being inserted by the translators to help readability, so in essence only three words in Scripture highlight the importance and account of the star’s creation. Some biblical commentators have said this brevity of description is deliberate as God wants to in no way give the stars significance. In truth, rather than giving the stars, sun, and moon any value over what they were created for, there are a number of places in Scripture that denounce their worship. Deuteronomy 4:19 says, “And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.” In fact, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 prescribes a death sentence for anyone found worshipping the creation rather than the Creator. In Isaiah 47:13 God mockingly asks if the star gazers can actually protect those who follow them from the real Power of the universe: “You are wearied with your many counsels; Let now the astrologers, Those who prophesy by the stars, Those who predict by the new moons, Stand up and save you from what will come upon you.” So the claim the zeitgeist movie makes about the Bible being based and grounded on astrology goes against what is written in the actual Book itself.

In addition to the general faulty concept of astrology and the Bible being joined at the hip, the specific statements made in the film about this supposed link reflect a disregard for historical facts. For example, the movie states that the number “12” in the Bible refers to the 12 zodiacal signs. So the 12 patriarchs, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples of Jesus, etc., are supposed to match the number of the astrological signs. This is out of the realm of possibility as Genesis was written around 1,000 B.C. with the actual events having occurred even earlier. History shows that the division of the stars/constellations into the 12 zodiacal signs did not occur until the Babylonians made the divisions around the fifth century B.C. so the timing is off.

The meatier part of the first section of the movie is devoted to allegations of Jesus being nothing but a combination of pagan deity attributes that the gospel writers borrowed to create their own new god. For this short refutation, focus will be given to what appears to be the major authority used in this portion of the movie and the first major mythological figure presented as a forerunner of Jesus – Horus – using the logic that if the research on their primary character is flawed, it is likely the same faulty investigation methods/materials will be present in everything else that follows. Also note that it is the absence of documented scholarly material supporting the movie’s stance that challenges the position stated in the film.

The zeitgeist movie makes these claims about the Egyptian god Horus:

• He was born on December 25th of a virgin - Isis Mary
• A star in the East proclaimed his arrival
• Three kings came to adore the new-born “savior”
• He became a prodigal teacher at age 12
• At age 30 he was “baptized” and began a “ministry”
• Horus had twelve “disciples”
• Horus was betrayed
• He was crucified
• He was buried for three days
• He was resurrected after three days

If true, this would certainly be unsettling to followers of Christ. However, walking through each point in detail is quite revealing. First, it is true that Egyptian legend has Horus being born to Isis. But the trailing name of “Mary” used in the movie – where did that come from? No mention in any Egyptian literature links the name Isis to the actual name “Mary.” Isis was also not a virgin. Neither account of Horus’ birth makes this statement – instead readers are told Isis was not a virgin, but the widow of Osiris, another Egyptian god who conceived Horus with Isis. Finally, Horus was supposedly born during the month of Khoiak (Oct/Nov), and not on December 25th, a fact which does not help their claim of marrying the stories of Horus to Jesus anyway because the Bible never assigns a birth date to Christ.

Next, the film states that a star in the East announced his birth and that three kings came to bring gifts to the “savior.” However, when stories detailing the birth of Horus are examined, there is no star or three kings who come to visit him. Trying to link this to Christianity fails in any event as the account of Christ’s birth in Matthew has magi (wise men, not kings) coming to Jesus with their actual number not being stated. Finally, the movie calls Horus a “savior.” There are no descriptions of Horus being a savior to anyone or serving in that capacity.

This is an important point: the movie takes extreme liberty in the quick and subtle uses of Christian words and phrases that in no way accurately describe the actual pagan god or attribute being discussed. This is seen again in the statements made of Horus being “baptized” and starting a “ministry.” The only accounts remotely related to Horus and water are the stories told of Osiris (his father who is sometimes combined in ancient accounts with Horus to form one individual) whose body was cut up into 14 pieces by his enemy Set and scattered throughout the earth. Isis supposedly found each part of the body and after having Osiris float in the Nile, he came back to life or became the lord of the underworld, depending on which account is read. In any event, stating that Horus was “baptized” is simply playing fast and loose with Christian terminology.

In addition, Horus had no “ministry.” Horus becoming a teacher at age 12 (mimicking Jesus’ account at the temple as a youth) is nowhere to be found in accounts of Horus; neither are there any statements to the effect of him having twelve “disciples.” According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers and some indications of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. No accounts of Horus being betrayed are found in his portrayals and he certainly did not die by crucifixion in any account. There is an incident described in one story of Horus being torn to pieces, with Iris requesting that the crocodile god fish him out of the water he was placed into, but the movie does not mention this as it does not fit in with their agenda. Further, the movie puts the account of Horus as originating in 3,000 B.C., which predates the invention and practice of crucifixion, so there is another historical problem that must be overcome.

The claims of Horus being buried for three days and resurrected are not to be found in any ancient Egyptian texts either. Some accounts have Osiris being brought back to life by Isis and going to be the lord of the underworld. But there is not a burial for three days of Horus and no resurrection of him physically coming out of a grave in the same physical body he went in with and never dying again. And there is certainly no account of Horus dying for others as Jesus did.

In the end, the attempt to prove Horus was a picture/forerunner of Jesus simply fails from lack of any historical evidence. The movie continues in this same vein with all the other mythological pagan deities that pre-dated Jesus (Attis, Krishna, etc.) As just another simple example, the zeitgeist movie says that Hindu’s Krishna was also crucified and resurrected. However, Hindu teachings clearly state that Krishna was killed by an arrow shot from a hunter who accidentally hit him in his heal and after he died, he then ascended to be with Brahman. None of the pagan deities, when accurately examined, mirror the Son of God recorded in the New Testament gospels.

Of course, neither does the movie note the following facts:

• The many archaeological details confirming New Testament accounts.
• The historically confirmed references that run alongside the life of Christ.
• The early dating of the gospel accounts, during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses.
• The deep moral convictions of the authors and their commitment to truth.
• The accounts of the apostles going to their deaths for what they had seen.
• The typology of Joseph and Jesus (used by the film to supposedly debunk the actual existence of Christ) is very well known and accepted by conservative Christian scholars as a foreshadowing of the first coming of Jesus.
• All the good produced by Christianity (see “How Christianity Changed the World” by Dr. Alvin Schmidt), which are brushed aside with only the crusades and other like events being highlighted.

This is in keeping with the current militant atheist mindset of there only being violence in religion. Of course, violence done in the name of atheism/naturalism is not mentioned in the movie. Perhaps most overlooked is the fact that Jesus birth, life, and death were prophesied hundreds of years in advance in the Old Testament, which was written by monotheistic Jews who certainly would not have borrowed aspects from pagan cults for their work. The person and life of Jesus as lived out by the historically verified Nazarene carpenter is nothing more than an unfolding of what had been predicted by the prophets of the Old Testament years before.

It is interesting to note that the person of Jesus and Christianity is the only faith attacked in the movie – Islam, Hinduism, and others don’t warrant a mention. Though the faith of the producers is not exposed, there is a blurb at the end speaking to the effect that “all is one,” with a clip of noted evolutionist / materialist Carl Sagan being shown who says that the earth is a single organism and that a `new consciousness is developing` that shows all is one."

[trx#9]

Which religious web-site did you pull that from.

[WickedBanshee]

wow ....one hell of a copy and paste  And i read it all lol

[yfz450runner]

Here's a little more for everyone:

"The allegations concerning Jesus in the zeitgeist movie can be summarized as follows: The Jesus proclaimed in the Bible is not a historical person, and in fact He never existed. Instead, the Jesus found in the pages of the New Testament gospels is an invention of the biblical authors who painstakingly copied attributes of ancient pagan deities and created a new god to be worshipped. Jesus mirrors various pagan deities in very exacting ways such as the manner of his birth, life, death, and resurrection.

Further, the movie asserts that astrology is the foundation behind much of the writing in Scripture. The end conclusion is that Christianity is a myth just as all the pagan religions that came before it and therefore is untrue. To address these assertions, it is helpful to break them up into three groups:

• The subject of astrology and the Bible.
• The supposed similarities between Jesus and mythological heroes.
• The evidence for the truthfulness of the gospel accounts.

The zeitgeist (the name is German and means `the spirit of the age` or literally `time (Zeit) “spirit” (Geist)) movie places great emphasis on how the Bible is based on astrology and the stars. Perhaps one of the most telling statements in all the Bible regarding the importance God places on the stars is found in Genesis 1:16b: “He made the stars also.” This translation is from the NASB, with the italicized words “He made” being inserted by the translators to help readability, so in essence only three words in Scripture highlight the importance and account of the star’s creation. Some biblical commentators have said this brevity of description is deliberate as God wants to in no way give the stars significance. In truth, rather than giving the stars, sun, and moon any value over what they were created for, there are a number of places in Scripture that denounce their worship. Deuteronomy 4:19 says, “And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.” In fact, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 prescribes a death sentence for anyone found worshipping the creation rather than the Creator. In Isaiah 47:13 God mockingly asks if the star gazers can actually protect those who follow them from the real Power of the universe: “You are wearied with your many counsels; Let now the astrologers, Those who prophesy by the stars, Those who predict by the new moons, Stand up and save you from what will come upon you.” So the claim the zeitgeist movie makes about the Bible being based and grounded on astrology goes against what is written in the actual Book itself.

In addition to the general faulty concept of astrology and the Bible being joined at the hip, the specific statements made in the film about this supposed link reflect a disregard for historical facts. For example, the movie states that the number “12” in the Bible refers to the 12 zodiacal signs. So the 12 patriarchs, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples of Jesus, etc., are supposed to match the number of the astrological signs. This is out of the realm of possibility as Genesis was written around 1,000 B.C. with the actual events having occurred even earlier. History shows that the division of the stars/constellations into the 12 zodiacal signs did not occur until the Babylonians made the divisions around the fifth century B.C. so the timing is off.

The meatier part of the first section of the movie is devoted to allegations of Jesus being nothing but a combination of pagan deity attributes that the gospel writers borrowed to create their own new god. For this short refutation, focus will be given to what appears to be the major authority used in this portion of the movie and the first major mythological figure presented as a forerunner of Jesus – Horus – using the logic that if the research on their primary character is flawed, it is likely the same faulty investigation methods/materials will be present in everything else that follows. Also note that it is the absence of documented scholarly material supporting the movie’s stance that challenges the position stated in the film.

The zeitgeist movie makes these claims about the Egyptian god Horus:

• He was born on December 25th of a virgin - Isis Mary
• A star in the East proclaimed his arrival
• Three kings came to adore the new-born “savior”
• He became a prodigal teacher at age 12
• At age 30 he was “baptized” and began a “ministry”
• Horus had twelve “disciples”
• Horus was betrayed
• He was crucified
• He was buried for three days
• He was resurrected after three days

If true, this would certainly be unsettling to followers of Christ. However, walking through each point in detail is quite revealing. First, it is true that Egyptian legend has Horus being born to Isis. But the trailing name of “Mary” used in the movie – where did that come from? No mention in any Egyptian literature links the name Isis to the actual name “Mary.” Isis was also not a virgin. Neither account of Horus’ birth makes this statement – instead readers are told Isis was not a virgin, but the widow of Osiris, another Egyptian god who conceived Horus with Isis. Finally, Horus was supposedly born during the month of Khoiak (Oct/Nov), and not on December 25th, a fact which does not help their claim of marrying the stories of Horus to Jesus anyway because the Bible never assigns a birth date to Christ.

Next, the film states that a star in the East announced his birth and that three kings came to bring gifts to the “savior.” However, when stories detailing the birth of Horus are examined, there is no star or three kings who come to visit him. Trying to link this to Christianity fails in any event as the account of Christ’s birth in Matthew has magi (wise men, not kings) coming to Jesus with their actual number not being stated. Finally, the movie calls Horus a “savior.” There are no descriptions of Horus being a savior to anyone or serving in that capacity.

This is an important point: the movie takes extreme liberty in the quick and subtle uses of Christian words and phrases that in no way accurately describe the actual pagan god or attribute being discussed. This is seen again in the statements made of Horus being “baptized” and starting a “ministry.” The only accounts remotely related to Horus and water are the stories told of Osiris (his father who is sometimes combined in ancient accounts with Horus to form one individual) whose body was cut up into 14 pieces by his enemy Set and scattered throughout the earth. Isis supposedly found each part of the body and after having Osiris float in the Nile, he came back to life or became the lord of the underworld, depending on which account is read. In any event, stating that Horus was “baptized” is simply playing fast and loose with Christian terminology.

In addition, Horus had no “ministry.” Horus becoming a teacher at age 12 (mimicking Jesus’ account at the temple as a youth) is nowhere to be found in accounts of Horus; neither are there any statements to the effect of him having twelve “disciples.” According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers and some indications of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. No accounts of Horus being betrayed are found in his portrayals and he certainly did not die by crucifixion in any account. There is an incident described in one story of Horus being torn to pieces, with Iris requesting that the crocodile god fish him out of the water he was placed into, but the movie does not mention this as it does not fit in with their agenda. Further, the movie puts the account of Horus as originating in 3,000 B.C., which predates the invention and practice of crucifixion, so there is another historical problem that must be overcome.

The claims of Horus being buried for three days and resurrected are not to be found in any ancient Egyptian texts either. Some accounts have Osiris being brought back to life by Isis and going to be the lord of the underworld. But there is not a burial for three days of Horus and no resurrection of him physically coming out of a grave in the same physical body he went in with and never dying again. And there is certainly no account of Horus dying for others as Jesus did.

In the end, the attempt to prove Horus was a picture/forerunner of Jesus simply fails from lack of any historical evidence. The movie continues in this same vein with all the other mythological pagan deities that pre-dated Jesus (Attis, Krishna, etc.) As just another simple example, the zeitgeist movie says that Hindu’s Krishna was also crucified and resurrected. However, Hindu teachings clearly state that Krishna was killed by an arrow shot from a hunter who accidentally hit him in his heal and after he died, he then ascended to be with Brahman. None of the pagan deities, when accurately examined, mirror the Son of God recorded in the New Testament gospels.

Of course, neither does the movie note the following facts:

• The many archaeological details confirming New Testament accounts.
• The historically confirmed references that run alongside the life of Christ.
• The early dating of the gospel accounts, during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses.
• The deep moral convictions of the authors and their commitment to truth.
• The accounts of the apostles going to their deaths for what they had seen.
• The typology of Joseph and Jesus (used by the film to supposedly debunk the actual existence of Christ) is very well known and accepted by conservative Christian scholars as a foreshadowing of the first coming of Jesus.
• All the good produced by Christianity (see “How Christianity Changed the World” by Dr. Alvin Schmidt), which are brushed aside with only the crusades and other like events being highlighted.

This is in keeping with the current militant atheist mindset of there only being violence in religion. Of course, violence done in the name of atheism/naturalism is not mentioned in the movie. Perhaps most overlooked is the fact that Jesus birth, life, and death were prophesied hundreds of years in advance in the Old Testament, which was written by monotheistic Jews who certainly would not have borrowed aspects from pagan cults for their work. The person and life of Jesus as lived out by the historically verified Nazarene carpenter is nothing more than an unfolding of what had been predicted by the prophets of the Old Testament years before.

It is interesting to note that the person of Jesus and Christianity is the only faith attacked in the movie – Islam, Hinduism, and others don’t warrant a mention. Though the faith of the producers is not exposed, there is a blurb at the end speaking to the effect that “all is one,” with a clip of noted evolutionist / materialist Carl Sagan being shown who says that the earth is a single organism and that a `new consciousness is developing` that shows all is one."

wow some poeple are really brainwashed!!!!!!!!!!

[WickedBanshee]

I knew the religious part of the movie would be attacked ...the part of the movie i care the least about .....but found to be interresting to say the least .....what about the expert building demolation team and what was said about the way the towers fell and what not The 3rd tower that is never talked about and the video confirming that a plane actually hit the pentagon ? Why not show us the video? ........There is alot of untold ,unknown sh*t going on ....what about the federal reserve , is that all a LIE also ? My wife has been in the banking/credit union scene for over 20 years and when she saw some of the 3rd part of the video about banking ....she said wow ....she had attended(a few weeks ago) a financial seminar that cover alot of which was being told in the video .........North American Union   come on ....what is that about

[WickedBanshee]

I want to add ....Thanks for keeping this civil for the most part ....I know some of what is in the movie is touchy stuff ......i want to hear what others think about things like this .....If you have watched the video ,then post and tell us what your thoughts are ...keep it clean ....we have yougins watching us !

[Ida_Mann]

two of the things I think make this country great:

1. the abilty of people to question the actions/happenings of the government in ways like this movie, without fear of prosecution.

2. the ability of people like me to call the people who do, idiots ;-)

but seriously, anybody who TRUELY believes that the towers were brought down by a branch of our government should believe that their life is in grave danger and the only way to avoid being killed by our government is to flee.

so go.

no really, go.

I'd love to one day sit down and watch the entire movie,,,,with opocorn just like I did at my bosses house when watching an inconvenient truth while pointing out mistakes and flat lies in front of the gathering of tree huggers, but I doubt I will have the time to do so any time in the near future.

Id@

[WickedBanshee]

 when watching an inconvenient truth

is there a link to this video ? I would like to check it out myself .......thanks

[Ida_Mann]

nope, I watched the DVD in my boss' 2800sf home on the st. johns river.

I'm sure he bought the DVD to further the cause of getting the word out about global warming, or something like that.

Id@

[Anoriginal]

Of course I cut and pasted it. I certainly don't claim it as my own.
And, I didn't get it from a religious right wing web site. Rather, it came from something similar to Snopes. Kind of a middle of the road discussion board.

I will get to the other sections too when I have the time.

[HASBEEN]

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/      Watch it till the END!

Ah, that's pretty scary and if its true - that's real scary. Could we, as a society, be that manipulated. A lot of it seems to make sense and frankly, scares the hell out of me. Kind of makes you wonder that if you research it enough you may find out only what "they" want you to find out and if you're too smart - see ya.... Then again, maybe its all crap. The challenge, as always, is separating the fact from fiction.

[WickedBanshee]

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/      Watch it till the END!

Ah, that's pretty scary and if its true - that's real scary. Could we, as a society, be that manipulated. A lot of it seems to make sense and frankly, scares the hell out of me. Kind of makes you wonder that if you research it enough you may find out only what "they" want you to find out and if you're too smart - see ya.... Then again, maybe its all crap. The challenge, as always, is separating the fact from fiction.

exactly how i feel !

[renmus]

A long time ago, ancient history since it was before the internet, radio ruled the world.  There was a drama put on one day called War of the World, because it was on radio (the internet of that time) everyone went wild worrying that we were being invaded by aliens.  People were running around repeating what was heard as truth.  For those curious, this is a pretty good recap  http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/war_worlds.html This "movie", and I use that tern very lightly, and this post remind me of that.   You keep asking for opinions, and this is mine. 

[trx#9]

A long time ago, ancient history since it was before the internet, radio ruled the world.  There was a drama put on one day called War of the World, because it was on radio (the internet of that time) everyone went wild worrying that we were being invaded by aliens.  People were running around repeating what was heard as truth.  For those curious, this is a pretty good recap  http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/war_worlds.html This "movie", and I use that tern very lightly, and this post remind me of that.   You keep asking for opinions, and this is mine. 

That stretching it a bit.

[Ida_Mann]

A long time ago, ancient history since it was before the internet, radio ruled the world.  There was a drama put on one day called War of the World, because it was on radio (the internet of that time) everyone went wild worrying that we were being invaded by aliens.  People were running around repeating what was heard as truth.  For those curious, this is a pretty good recap  http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/war_worlds.html This "movie", and I use that tern very lightly, and this post remind me of that.   You keep asking for opinions, and this is mine. 

That stretching it a bit.

exactly what I think the movie is doing.

Id@