Golden Gate/Badluck/Picayune

[JackL]

Rick,
I cant explain how happy I am that you are compling all this information and forwarding it to higher powers.
How do you feel about Gov Christ?  Do you think he is already in the pocket of the kings of development and sugar.

...and the insurance companies IMO. This information needs to reach the general public. Screw all these self serving politicians.

[lswjth2]

JustBilly, In my very limited opinion of Charlie, he's the same $hit as Bush when it comes to
us. He just appointed a lady (Estinoz) to the SFWMD board.

She's on record against atv/buggy use in the addition lands in Big Cypress. We need to do something drastic to draw attention to our plight.

[JackL]

JustBilly, In my very limited opinion of Charlie, he's the same $hit as Bush when it comes to
us. He just appointed a lady (Estinoz) to the SFWMD board.

She's on record against atv/buggy use in the addition lands in Big Cypress. We need to do something drastic to draw attention to our plight.

We have a perfect rally point very near Tallahassee now that can accommodate every single last person you can find to go and protest.

[lswjth2]

yep, we need to do this.We also have to have a huge protest in front of SFWMD headqurters in West palm and call them Liars, baby killers, SFWeapons of Mass Destruction ans so on. Call the media and try to get a snowball effect going.......Who's in???

[JackL]

yep, we need to do this.We also have to have a huge protest in front of SFWMD headqurters in West palm and call them Liars, baby killers, SFWeapons of Mass Destruction ans so on. Call the media and try to get a snowball effect going.......Who's in???

I think a huge showing in Tallahassee would be the ticket, and guarantee some media coverage where you can look straight into the cameras and call SFWMD out as the con artists and liars they are. I wonder how much notice 2000 people would need to make arrangements for the most important issue to date. I have a feeling many sportsmen would show in addition to off roaders.

Maybe if their is no charge to hit the plex many more folks would show up this time.....

I say make a date some time in October and post it up.

[foreman1]

Regarding the Glades ,the term "RESTORATION" is damn joke.
50 % of the Glades are gone for ever as is in covered with asphalt.
The remainder is  fragmented  areas for water storage areas for urban use.

Now there's talk of using Area 3/ Holey Land and Ray Rotenberg as water containment areas , why you ask ? Because an area known as the Everglades Agriculture Area (EAA) which is just south of the Lake O, is in the planning stages for development .
All one has to do is look at Area 2 before it was turned into a pond to see what will happen to the three areas I just mentioned ,deer herd , coons ,and  bobcats all gone. Sustained high water levels are devastating to all forms of life in the affected area.
What's the point in Everglades Restoration if wildlfe will be adversely affeted.

Thursday, Aug. 7, the Okeechobee County Board of
County Commissioners approved plans for a 9-square mile self-contained
residential and commercial development that will dwarf the City of
Okeechobee.

Presentations by developers of The Grove have been made several times
to different government and public groups since the project was made
public in January of 2006. The development, which would be located in
the northeastern part of the county, would be developed in three
phases beginning in 2008. The scheduled completion date is sometime in
2024.

Upon completion it would have 11,798 single family units and 2,202
multi-family units, with 1,350,000 square feet of retail space,
420,000 square feet of office space, 350,000 square feet of industrial
space, 600 hotel rooms and a hospital.

The Dade Lake belt area is another example of restorations/CERP's failure to identify and protect vital wetlands. This area is home to the largest rock mining operation in south florida and it recieved a blessing to mine permit from the ACOE for another 10 years , this pure Everglades . Keep in mind the draglines operate 24/7 and are consuming glades at an alarming rate so ,wheres the uproar to stop this ?

 We dont need "restoration" , because its impossible at this point , we need land protection from development and other types of activities that permanently destroy the glades .And guess what ,all our ORVs combined  haven't hurt a damn thing.

Regarding the Picayune or the Blocks as some know the area , should've been left alone .
The notion that wildlife will move north is halarious , I guess DEP will have to flyover the Picayune/SGGE and drop flyers to inform all wildlife that life as they know it for the area will change .
 Notice to all critters -Going forward disregard feeding areas you've  known years , just move north.
 The idea that flooding it (re-establishing sheet flow) will be a success is total BS.


For some good reading click on the links below.
02/02 The Everglades Restoration Project?
http://www.aaof.us/02.02.htm


12/00 The Everglades Oxymoron
http://www.aaof.us/12.00.htm


11/98 Story The Flow of Water in the Everglades
http://www.aaof.us/novstory.htm

Browns Farm WMA a CERP victim
http://fig.cox.miami.edu/~scofield/sofl_plants/brownsfarm_index.html


Rick's comments are dead on again.

[JackL]

This document is giving me a headache just looking at it. Way too late to read, and apparently stop. At first glance it looks like a pile of BS and the population numbers by 2025 they state are out to lunch IMO.


http://www.co.palm-beach.fl.us/PZB/planning/CalleryJudgeGrove/ORCResponseRpt.pdf

The County has been planning for growth in a comprehensive manner for over 30 years.
The Urban Service Area was established in the 1980 Comprehensive Plan to contain
growth in a confined area, and since that time there have been a series of studies and
analyses that have examined the area between the Urban Service Area and the 20 Mile
Bend. Some of these documents were adopted as part of the County’s Comprehensive
Plan, others were utilized as reference. This chain represents a consistent thread in
long term planning that the County has been anticipating growth within this
geographically specific area to occur as the Urban Service Area approached build-out.
A major focus within each of these documents has often been with regards to the timing,
extent, and land pattern that would occur in this area.


¨ In the adopted CWC Sector Plan Amendment, staff noted:” In concert with the guiding
principles, the amendments being proposed in this report seek to provide a more
sustainable development pattern for the CWC area than the current trend. The proposed
TMDs, Village Centers, and Employment Center are compact non-residential forms of
development that improve land use balancing in the area while helping preserve open
space and the rural character of the area. They are areas that could have collocation of
future public facilities.”
¨ The Callery-Judge Grove TTD similarly provides for compact non-residential forms of
development that improve upon land use balancing in the area while helping to preserve
open space and rural areas on the site.
¨ The Callery-Judge Grove TTD has been designed to be a livable community in concert
with County directions. The scale of the project provides an opportunity for a full suite of
balanced land uses and organized open space, distinct community design elements in
an attractive and functional town setting, efficient provision of services and opportunities
for education, employment, recreation and cultural enrichment.

[foreman1]

"This document is giving me a headache just looking at it. Way too late to read, and apparently stop. At first glance it looks like a pile of BS and the population numbers by 2025 they state are out to lunch IMO."

Yep ,I agree. .

[digginfool]

Hey, Foreman, you are slightly mis-informed.  The Lake Belt mines were shut down nearly a month ago and the first of the appeals failed to be heard.  You might think this is a good thing, but the effect on Florida's construction industry, and since construction makes up a large part of our economy, the overall effect on the state will be devastating.  I do not have the figures with me (they are at my office and this is Saturday morning) but, working from memory, FDOT was against the closing of the mines and had completed a study showing that even a 3% loss of aggregate production would have serious effects on construction costs and the ability of the State of Florida to complete it's planned road building efforts.  This report doesn't even take into account the effect on the price of everything else made of concrete or using aggregates (asphalt for instance); it only takes into account the road building/improvement projects.  FDOT said that if a loss of only 3% occurred, they would have to cancel billions of dollars of projects and in excess of 10,000 jobs would be lost.  The closing of the Lake Belt represents between 25% and 30% of all aggregate production in Florida. This will be devastating.  As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for.  You just might get it.

[JackL]

This sounds great to me. Our roads are fine, and sorry to say our construction industry can stop now....for good as far as I am concerned. They sure found money to make I-95 a toll road.
Reminds me of how the turnpike was suppose to go free once it was paid for.
Now it pulls 2 million+ a day.

[foreman1]

Hey, Foreman, you are slightly mis-informed.  The Lake Belt mines were shut down nearly a month ago and the first of the appeals failed to be heard.  You might think this is a good thing, but the effect on Florida's construction industry, and since construction makes up a large part of our economy, the overall effect on the state will be devastating.  I do not have the figures with me (they are at my office and this is Saturday morning) but, working from memory, FDOT was against the closing of the mines and had completed a study showing that even a 3% loss of aggregate production would have serious effects on construction costs and the ability of the State of Florida to complete it's planned road building efforts.  This report doesn't even take into account the effect on the price of everything else made of concrete or using aggregates (asphalt for instance); it only takes into account the road building/improvement projects.  FDOT said that if a loss of only 3% occurred, they would have to cancel billions of dollars of projects and in excess of 10,000 jobs would be lost.  The closing of the Lake Belt represents between 25% and 30% of all aggregate production in Florida. This will be devastating.  As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for.  You just might get it.

Diggin ,
You're absolutely right ,the closing of the mines will have devastating economic effects . The ripple effect will be felt in south florida for sure.
I've been seeing the long trains hauling rock out of Rinker daily ,so I forgot about the appeal you mentioned .

At some point in time there will be an end to the minning operation  though and the question is when ? When we run out of ground is the answer and nothin else. The argument is  the same for rural places we all hate to see developed because of jobs and the economic effect of a construction moratorium.

In my oppinion , south florida's contruction will run right to the levee's just like we have in area 2 and soon in south dade. Then when the pressure builds those lands will go as well.

Believe me , its no joke when a family is impacted because of a loss of a job .
Thats why out of necessity ,I feel the resources will be taken until there is no more.

[JackL]

A devastating effect on our economy will be felt when we loose our tourism dollars, anything else pales in comparison. It is the biggest industry in the entire world. Not gas, not oil, not anything but stupid tourists I have always hated.

South Florida's economy has, and always will be based on this since the time Flagler brought the first ones here to this terribly hot paradise.
Unchecked construction is leading to the destruction of the very things that brings people here in the first place.

Our sport fishing has been on a steady decline, our reefs are turning to chit, our everglades are being hacked up, why, to accommodate more people in a place that was never designed to hold them all. One look at the sewer outfalls in the ocean makes me sick.

This land I love is being turned in to New Yark City, a complete dump by anyone's standards.

Why in the world no one is against this unchecked destruction of South Florida is anyone's guess. I suppose a few quick bucks blinds everyone to the big picture. Let me tell you, I had a very prosperous time in the construction industry during the 80's helping this along, and couldn't see it either till now, when it is almost too late.

I hope everyone enjoys what is being created here, I could care less, I will be out of here soon like nearly every other native I have ever known.

[digginfool]

The rock you see being hauled out right now is stock piled materials.  There are also a couple of mines that are still operating and not part of the Lake Belt suit.  I wouldn't doubt they will be next.  If you are interested, I'll post more complete info next week and links for anybody who wants to confirm.  JackL, you might be on the mark as far as tourism goes but if the construction industry in Florida (there's more to construction than homes and roads) collapses, you won't be so smug when the realities start to manifest themselves.

[JackL]

The realities have been beating me in the head for years now, I just love this place too much to see it transformed into a dump in a short sighted attempt to satisfy a few people and line their pockets with what should be everyone's money.

I was sitting here reading an article that starts out with, "What's the largest industry on earth? Telecom, NO. Computers and software, NO. Not even close. How about automotive products or gas and oil? Close but NO. The largest industry on earth annually accounting for more than 3.5 TRILLION in spending -- and a 1/2 trillion in direct revenue is, drum roll please. Tourism. It accounts for 11.4% of all consumer spending and employs 10% of the global workforce..." It continues to rise each and every year BTW.

It has been so good to South Florida through the years, we have been able to weather every economic storm that has ever hit the country because of it. To destroy this is insane, we should embrace and expand our role I have come to believe, so my kids can enjoy what I have for so many years.

I welcome a total collapse of the construction industry here, sure their will be some sad people, their always it, but in the long run we will be better for it. Just like a hurricane rolling over us, it will barely be felt in the long term where as when we destroy what brings people here, we will be left with nothing but misery.

[digginfool]

I feel like I should be paying more attention to my sig but here goes.  Tourism is Florida's biggest industry and nobody argues that point.  However, the tourists must have a way to get here, have a place to stay once they get here and have access to what attracted them in the first place.  You have to have infrastructure in place to supply the hotels and resorts where the tourists stay; you have to have employees working at these hotels and resorts.  Those employees need housing, schools, stores, water and sewer systems, and roads to get them there.  You have to have employees working at the industries that support the employees that work at the hotels and resorts that provide the experience to the tourist that makes them want to return.  And on and on and on.  It's all inter-related.  Tourism drives Florida's economy but you cannot support tourism without the construction industry.  If the most basic construction material goes up in price by, as some theorize, a factor of ten or more, those extra costs must be passed on and eventually the tourists ends up paying for it.  At some point, Florida becomes too expensive and the tourists move on (I'm not suggesting a complete collapse but certainly a big impact).  In the meantime, the people who live in Florida become mired down in ever increasing taxes (that's what pays for road construction and improvements) and costs (everything becomes more expensive as the increase in construction costs are passed through to the consumer) that expendable income becomes severely impacted.  Don't forget also that as construction costs sky-rocket, projects are cancelled, tens of thousands of jobs are lost and not just in the construction industry.  There will be a ripple effect throughout the economy.  No matter how you slice it, this is not a good thing for Florida's economy.

[enniehall]

I was just out there Thursday the 16th fishing. The roads all seemed in the same condition from what I remember but they are cutting down the palms and selling them according to the Forestry guy we talked to.

[KB]

www.tbo.com/news/reports/everglades/.com


edit :I cant get this article to come up.

[JackL]

I feel like I should be paying more attention to my sig but here goes.  Tourism is Florida's biggest industry and nobody argues that point.  However, the tourists must have a way to get here, have a place to stay once they get here and have access to what attracted them in the first place.  You have to have infrastructure in place to supply the hotels and resorts where the tourists stay; you have to have employees working at these hotels and resorts.  Those employees need housing, schools, stores, water and sewer systems, and roads to get them there.  You have to have employees working at the industries that support the employees that work at the hotels and resorts that provide the experience to the tourist that makes them want to return.  And on and on and on.  It's all inter-related.  Tourism drives Florida's economy but you cannot support tourism without the construction industry.  If the most basic construction material goes up in price by, as some theorize, a factor of ten or more, those extra costs must be passed on and eventually the tourists ends up paying for it.  At some point, Florida becomes too expensive and the tourists move on (I'm not suggesting a complete collapse but certainly a big impact).  In the meantime, the people who live in Florida become mired down in ever increasing taxes (that's what pays for road construction and improvements) and costs (everything becomes more expensive as the increase in construction costs are passed through to the consumer) that expendable income becomes severely impacted.  Don't forget also that as construction costs sky-rocket, projects are cancelled, tens of thousands of jobs are lost and not just in the construction industry.  There will be a ripple effect throughout the economy.  No matter how you slice it, this is not a good thing for Florida's economy.

Thanks for the lesson in economics. I understand my point of view probably upsets you being in the construction industry, but in case you missed it last time, South Florida has already weathered a complete collapse of the 'NEW' construction industry a few times in the past quite well.

To try and say a moratorium on new construction will affect us in a catastrophic way is absurd, we have plenty of tourist driven taxes in place to fund our roads and quite a few more things that benefit the residents. Packing 5 million more people in here for a few new tax dollars is not the answer, and will only keep these tens of thousands of workers with food on their tables for a very limited time. It is unsustainable, we are nearly built out. When the roads are packed full of locals with no jobs, and no affordable housing, no one will have a reason to come here. As I watch every trailer park surrounding me be torn up and developed to make room for even more folks, I can't help but laugh at the fact we will have no where for anyone in the service industry to live in just a few short years, and I fail to see how a bunch of new million dollar homes will change that.

Obviously your short sited view is shared by the lawmakers and government, so you are in no danger from 'idiots' like me who don't want to see paradise lost. You all are well on the way to fulfilling the destiny laid out for us by the developers, sfwmd and the Broward commissioners.

[digginfool]

If you go back and browse through this thread, you will not find anything anywhere regarding any moratoriums on building.  Foreman1 asked why nobody is closing the Lake Belt mines.  I informed him the mines were already closed but this is not a good thing for Florida's economy.  Even if all additional growth stopped, you still need to maintain and replace roads, highways, structures, etc.  Again, if the most basic of building materials goes up by the amounts that are being discussed, your $2.00 garden stepping stone will now cost you 3 to 4 times as much.  Imagine what effect that type of change will have on the cost of resurfacing one mile of roadway or even the expenses for such enterprises as Habitat for Humanity.  The loss of Paradise started a long time ago and has nothing to do with politics.  It has more to do with your vaunted tourism industry than any other factor.  How many of us ended up here because we (or our parents or grand-parents) came to Florida as tourists and thought "What a great place to live.  I think I'll move here." ?  Politicians and SFWMD only manage what the developers try to build.  So don't blame them for your loss, blame Paradise itself.

[JackL]

People have been screaming about this for years, I am certainly not the first one to have this opinion, the only difference is I always laughed at them and called them idiots until recently.

http://www.sfwmd.gov/org/pld/proj/lakebelt/legislation.html
It has always sounded like politics and a plumbing job to me, furthermore all this sounds like propaganda from here: http://www.keepfloridarockin.org/whatsnew.html

I'm sorry if a bunch of gloom and doom predictions from Callaway and his lobbyists don't scare me anymore that the BS SFWMD has been feeding us about a water shortage, after dumping most of the lake into the ocean.

I am not new here and have seen it all. I honestly don't know why my stepping stones will cost 3x more than the rest of the countries because we aren't mining rock here, but I do understand why a guy with the handle digginfool, who most likely runs a drag line at this place would get pissed off at the suggestion closing them down just might be the right thing to do for South Florida though.

I'm sorry I feel Florida has been 'rocked' enough already IMO.

A better question to ask is, "Why has nearly every native son left here?"

[Justbilly]

I read through this part of the debate on this thread, and agree with both sides.  That complete collapse of contruction can not happen.  Also, the demise of the parts of South Florida that brings the tourists will kill what we have even more.

Of course we still need to maintain existing roads and buildings, repair after the storms and improve the run down areas.
But do we need to another 60acres of chitty zero lot line homes going farther and farther west?  How do those homes help the tourist industry?

Now my thinking also goes like this, they predict this huge population burst in south florida and I keep thinking back to that phrase "Build it and they will come" (field of dreams 1989).  Wouldn't it make sense that if we "didn't" build they wont come?

This is already showing progress on the illegal immigration front.  Remove the jobs and they wont come.  So he just need to remove the houses.
Makes sense to me...

[digginfool]

But just what do you believe they will do with all of the land surrounding the lakes they have dredged?  Should make for some nice, waterfront homes of all valuations.  There's not much that can be done with 30-60' deep lakes to restore sheet flow in the Everglades.  BTW, Jack, I don't operate a dragline.  I'm a civil engineer, own my own company and don't even use aggregates all that much but the related businesses in my industry will be severely impacted.  More info to come regarding the Lake Belt suit.

[foreman1]

Diggin ,
I have to admit ,I too thought you were a dragline operator and figured I hit a nerve with the Lake Belt area .Anyhow , good debate , lots good info and points of view exchanged here .

Now what was the original topic of this thread before I mentioned the lake belt??

[JackL]

Diggin ,
I have to admit ,I too thought you were a dragline operator and figured I hit a nerve with the Lake Belt area .Anyhow , good debate , lots good info and points of view exchanged here .

Now what was the original topic of this thread before I mentioned the lake belt??

How much the fine is to ride badluck.

[foreman1]

Diggin ,
I have to admit ,I too thought you were a dragline operator and figured I hit a nerve with the Lake Belt area .Anyhow , good debate , lots good info and points of view exchanged here .

Now what was the original topic of this thread before I mentioned the lake belt??

How much the fine is to ride badluck.

Fines apply only if ya get caught , run a quiet bike .