Ocala National Forest Phase II Trail system

[GrizzlyBear]

Today the USFS announced the final draft for Phase II

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/florida/ocala_phase2.shtml

This is open for 30 days of comments starting June 20, 2007.  If you have any comments, please follow the procedures stated below:

Written comments on this proposal should be sent to: District Ranger, 40929 State Road 19, Umatilla, Florida 32784, telephone (352) 669-3153; fax (352) 669-2385.  Oral or hand-delivered comments must be received within our normal business hours of 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Monday through Friday, closed on federal holidays.  Comments may also be mailed electronically in a common digital format to our office at comments-southern-florida-seminole@fs.fed.us or at the local Ranger Stations in Umatilla and Silver Springs.
Friends of the Ocala National Forest           

I would appreciate everyone sending me a copy of your comments;  Terry@onfa.org.  This way I can monitor and make sure they are getting them

[novadave]

Is phase II going to have a 20 mph speed limit for atvs?

[tekhanto]

Are they going to keep up their end of the bargain and groom the trails.............the correct way 

[novadave]

Well i'm glad we have this forum so we can get answers to questions about ONF.

[NPRVinson]

I have no desire to ride ONF anymore with everyone piled onto a select few trails and all the fees that are not going towards improving riding. The regs. are ridiculous, I think it's only fair to tax everybody that enters the forrest as they are doing to the ATVers. Might as well close the whole thing down in my opinion because riding there now sucks!!!

[novadave]

If there was somewhere better to ride within an hour of me . I wouldn't go back either , but ONF and croom is the only place. I feel the same as you do. I wish some investor would figure out that they could make good money opening a atv park in central Fl .

[flware]

Hello all.  I'm new to the board and have been reading some of the posts.  I do have a question that maybe someone can be more clear about.  Is it true that, at this time , a riding permit is not required at big scrub?  We are considering a day trip there later this week and would like to be in compliance.

[GrizzlyBear]

That is correct.

[flware]

Thanks Grizz.  We are fairly new to this and live very close to the forest.  We should be there this week, so if anyone's around look for obvious newbies on a 2008 TRX300EX and say hey.  Thanks, Dave

[novadave]

Be sure to have your registration sticker and a copy of your drivers license and title on you while riding.

[TUFBEINGCHRIS]

I agree, ONF has become lame! Never had all of these rules just a few years ago when we use to ride out there every weekend. I'll stick to 5A for the most part....

[SHAWNPROST59]

OKAY TO RIDE AT BIG SCRUB I NEED PROOF THAT I OWN MY BIKE.   IVE HAD IT FOR 13 YEARS  AND NEVER HAD OR GOT A BILL OF SALE IT'S A 85 250R WHAT NOW AND DO I NEED TO GET THE 75. PASS THANKS

[jpdunc]

I am extremely new to this sport, but it is a great new experience riding with my sons and grandchildren--yes I am a senior...in age at least.  My wife thinks I have gone over the edge with this latest adventure.

We rode yesterday on the Northern ONF Trail system after purchasing our annual permits in Salt Springs and had a great day.  I have two questions:

!.  Are you required to wear the permit pinned to your clothing or simply to have it in your possession along with photo ID?  The Volunteer in Salt Springs said wearing was not required, but volunteers at two trail heads said to wear it to avoid a fine.  Who is correct?  Since they are not replaceable, wearing it on the trails seems a bit risky.

2.  When will the Highway 316 trail head be opened?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

[GrizzlyBear]

you should wear it, I would go to Walmart and buy one of the hunting licence holder.  That has a good pin.  They are working on the 316 trailhead and it should be soon.

[novadave]

you should wear it, I would go to Walmart and buy one of the hunting licence holder.  That has a good pin.  They are working on the 316 trailhead and it should be soon.

Is phase II going to have a 20 mph speed limit for atvs?

[GrizzlyBear]

It is in the specs.

[leeward bound]

Dear Grizz

What if any is the word on Phase II.  Was it approved and was it the example noted as the preffered

Thank you

[GrizzlyBear]

The appeal period for phase II is over.  There are 6 appeals, 4 from hunters and 2 from environmentalists.  These appeals will be heard.  Alternative III is the approved version.  Nothing can be done until after the appeals are heard, then trails can start to be signed.

[leeward bound]

Thanks Grizz,

Looks like a great deal of thought has gone into this new trail system.  And from what I was told by Eve last time I was up they are also connecting the existing system to the new southerly system.  If they are to do this will they then enforce a total speed limit on all marked trails of 20MPH?

Has the appeals process started?  Are the appeals publically posted?


Thank you

[novadave]

When do the new rules go into effect for phase II?

[GrizzlyBear]

July 1, 2008

[FoxHondaRider]

so wait ocala sucks?  I thought it was fun up there?  if i have to ride 20MPH thats like idling.

[novadave]

yep

[SpeedQuest]

so wait ocala sucks?  I thought it was fun up there?  if i have to ride 20MPH thats like idling.

Ocala doesn't suck.  But for those not willing to come up and try it and believe all the naysayers, you are missing out.

The 20MPH speed limit is only going to be a problem for someone who is making themselves a problem.

Funny how almost every ticket I have ever personally seen written by Rangers is given to somebody who is riding like a maniac or argumentative with the Ranger right off the bat.

I said it in another thread: http://www.atvflorida.com/forum/index.php/topic,34648.0.html

[Eworm]

so wait ocala sucks?  I thought it was fun up there?  if i have to ride 20MPH thats like idling.

Ocala doesn't suck.  But for those not willing to come up and try it and believe all the naysayers, you are missing out.

The 20MPH speed limit is only going to be a problem for someone who is making themselves a problem.

Funny how almost every ticket I have ever personally seen written by Rangers is given to somebody who is riding like a maniac or argumentative with the Ranger right off the bat.

I said it in another thread: http://www.atvflorida.com/forum/index.php/topic,34648.0.html

I'd have to disagree with these statements.............The rules of the new trail system were put in place to drive ATV traffic away from the forest, plain and simple. How smart was it to implement a two way trail system and say that it's safer than a one way system when most if not all trail systems that are maintained are one way. 

[stacktester]

Basically the 20mph speed limit get's rid of people who fly around the forest and could care less what they do. I personally like going 20 or below because I enjoy seeing the scenery of the forest. Unfortunately the trail system is 2 way but hey, there could be no trails at all.

I was glad to see the trail system put in because it was a free for all. I do hope more trails are put in so the current system doesn't get boring. 4 wheelers if ridden in a manner not to destroy everything aren't going to hurt those fire break trails.

If somebody is unhappy about not being able to fly on their sport quad or racing bike go to one of the tracks and haul ass all day. It's much more family friendly these days.

[novadave]

How exactly does a 4 wheeler that is ridin fast destroy the forest?

[SpeedQuest]

How exactly does a 4 wheeler that is ridin fast destroy the forest?

You are kidding right?  The ruts, whoops, and burms that are on those trails didn't magically appear.  They were created by the traction (or in some cases lack thereof) that is produced from your tires.  The trails themselves are a perfect example.  The only thing attached to the ground after ATV's come through is tree roots, and even some of those get tore up over time. 

Another perfect example is any MX track...  Why do you think most tracks need to be groomed every other day?  Because hauling ass on ATV's and bikes relocates about 1"-3" of topsoil anytime your barely spinning the tires.

Eworm...  You are right.  Those rules were implemented to drive ATV traffic away from the forest.  But what you failed to mention was the TYPE of ATV traffic they drove away...  They put those new rules in and ever since then, I hardly ever come across syringes and beer cans on the trails and at the sinkholes.  They put those rules in and I haven't seen as many Ambulances at the trailhead.  Those new rules have also made it very hard to find injured kids on the trails.

I am extremely supportive of the 'less government, more results' movement as anyone, but I have to say that other than not being able to ride any place in the forest I want (which is not a god-given right), the trails are much safer, cleaner and certainly the people I meet on the trails have been great.

[novadave]

Do you really think for a minute that a quad doing 20 mph is not going to make whoops and burms ? Why is it that every atv rider that likes to ride slow hates the ones that like to ride fast? I don't have a problem if you want to ride slow . I'm not into motocross or i would go to a track and go in circles. I like to trail ride at a moderate pace and get the adrinaline flowing. And just so you know the slower you ride the more whoops you will create, because as your quad hits a bump and bounces up it has to come down and when it does it causes the tires to spin and that is what creates the whoop. There wouldn't be any fear of fast riding if the trails were one way, but i guess its gunna take someone getting hurt to fix this problem. Two riders hitting head on both doing 20 mph on a blind corner is gunna hurt. We don't need to argue about this we are on the same side . We are both atv riders.

[stacktester]

I'm not saying I don't like to go fast because there's a couple wide open places on the hog valley trail and the west side of Delancy Trail that I can think of that are perfect spots to do so. Mainly what I'm talking about is the sport quads and mx bikes that are constantly throwing sand all over the place.

Big Scrub is a perfect example of why so many rules are in place. All you would see down there was people on the powerline spinning donuts and hauling ass. Unfortunately there are only a few idiots that put us here.

[leeward bound]

   I have to agree with Spped Quest and Nova Dave,

[SpeedQuest]

Do you really think for a minute that a quad doing 20 mph is not going to make whoops and burms ?

An ATV or motorcycle at any speed is going to tear up the natural habitat.  You can argue 'till your blue in the face on this one, but going fast causes more ruts and whoops than going slow.  Why do you think that all the super fast trail areas on the Tobacco Patch and Yellow trail are whooped out periodically each year?  Because we HAUL ASS on it!  How come the Purple trail isn't nearly as badly whooped out?  Because it's tight and slow!  Anyhow, the point being, we as ATV riders are the ones who are making the whoops.  The bears don't come out at night and make them.  The deer don't have shovels or opposable thumbs to do it.  You can't possibly ride any trail anywhere and ask the question you asked:

"How exactly does a 4 wheeler that is ridin fast destroy the forest?"

  That's a silly question.  That's like asking how does drinking and driving really add to traffic fatalities? 

Why is it that every atv rider that likes to ride slow hates the ones that like to ride fast? I don't have a problem if you want to ride slow . I'm not into motocross or i would go to a track and go in circles.

I have a Raptor 700 and there aren't many days in Delancy where it's not topped out at one point or another.  The difference is when and where I ride it at those speeds.  On this topic I am sort of a Darwinian.  I like to think, let the idiots take each other out and we will all be better off.  The only problem with that is what about the day that I am taking it easy around a blind corner and some idiot takes me out?  Then my whole perspective would likely change.  I hope it never comes to that.

There wouldn't be any fear of fast riding if the trails were one way, but i guess its gunna take someone getting hurt to fix this problem. Two riders hitting head on both doing 20 mph on a blind corner is gunna hurt. We don't need to argue about this we are on the same side . We are both atv riders.

Statistically speaking, one-way trails are no safer than two-way trails.  Here is why:
People riding one-way trails tend to ride faster, counting on the fact that there is no traffic coming at them.  As a result, they end up hitting other obstacles (trees, stumps, roots, animals) with equal or greater speed than they would on a two-way trail system.  When they hit those obstacles they get hurt, period.  Additionally, one-way trails are often compromised by people who don't follow the rules anyhow, thus turning your one-way trail security blanket (and you on your ATV) on it's head.  And lastly, in emergencies, riders will almost ALWAYS take the shortest route back to the trail origin regardless of one-way or not, once again making the one-way trail more dangerous than a two-way trail.

The moral of the story:  Trail riding CAN AND WILL BE DANGEROUS.  The more speed you add, the more dangerous.  If you want to be able to ride anywhere, everywhere, and however you want start saving money to buy your own land.

[Backwoods Racin]

Hey speedquest, You argue that speed is the problem with the trails, but in the same post you say you top your raptor out in areas you feel are ok to do it. Does that mean you are an expert on matters of speed versus trail damage, or just that you are a hipocrit? Also you mention statistics on the 1 way trail is no safer than the 2 way trail, can you post where you got these statistics? Myself and many others would be very interested in reviewing them.

[Chillinthemost]

Some see, ruts, whoops,berms, rutted hillsides, and mudholes as damage and some see it as a thing of beauty.  When I see a hill that has no tracks going up it, I think to myself "what a shame". 
 Realistically it is impossible for us as off road riders to do any permanent damage to the land. It always comes back, thats how mother nature works. She is WAY more powerfull than any man on any machine. Look at what tornado's, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. do to the land and people every year.
  Dumping trash and riding without respect to others is a whole different issue. I also understand that some forms of enjoying the outdoors conflicts with others and they must be enjoyed separately.

[Backwoods Racin]

Dumping trash is the most disresepectiful thing any A-Hole could do!

[auctioneer]

SPEED QUEST you must work for the Gov. It sucks in Ocala I grew up here the commy rangers are horses arsess and the rules change to suit them The thing with the Gov. here as other places is to buy public land with public money and deny public use

The po-po rangers make the rules to what they want that day and and set fines as high as they can get away with. same with air boats buggys and so on

[SpeedQuest]

Hey speedquest, You argue that speed is the problem with the trails...  Does that mean you are an expert on matters of speed versus trail damage, or just that you are a hipocrit?

Thanks for inserting words in my mouth.  I haven't once said that I support a speed limit.  I have said that speed on the trails most certainly destroys the natural habitat.  I haven't in one one of my posts said that I think the forest should remain a pristine, untouched nature preserve.  So that means your Backwoods interpretation of my position is quite incorrect.  And it's spelled 'hypocrit' by the way!

Auctioneer,
Some of the National Forests have been around for 118 years.  Ocala National forest is 101 years old.  I think what some of us fail to realize is that the National Forests weren't created so that people with ATV's and Dirt Bikes had a place to ride.  The National Forests were in fact started to provide examples to future generations of what our wildlife and nature looks like when undisturbed.  The last thing on the minds of the people who created the forests was you and your ATV.  The fact that the government allows us to 'pay' to ride in them is sort of an oxymoron itself. 

I liken the whole ATV's in the forest topic to something like a loosely supervised teenager.  At first, you give them free reign to do pretty much what they want.  Then as they prove that they don't have enough common sense and judgement to make good decisions and not hurt themselves and others, you have to start taking away their privileges.  Hopefully, the teenager learns and begins to respect the people and things around him/her.  But many times they don't and you have to resort to some sort of major restrictions.

At one time, ATV's and Dirt Bikes were given a free reign in ONF.  A very small percentage of riders abused the privilege and began damaging more areas than were acceptable.  Another small percentage of riders injured other riders by driving too fast for conditions.  Another small percentage decided that littering was acceptable.  Another percentage decided that drug use was acceptable.  And the list just continued until the Forest Service decided enough is enough.  Now the rules and regulations that they have imposed represent what years of a handful of irresponsible and environmentally disrespectful riders have forced on all of us.

You can complain all you want, but until we police ourselves better we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Here is a small list of what we should be doing while we are in the Forest instead of arguing in cyberspace:

1.  Eliminate littering in the forest.  This means don't pass trash without removing it.  Almost every time I hit the trails I come back with at least 5-10 items of trash in a bag.
2.  If you must use drugs when you're on the trails, get off your ATV and do it on foot (well off the trail), and don't leave your syringes and paraphenelia behind!.  Same goes with the beer cans!
3.  Speed is FUN!  Use it responsibly.  We setup checkpoints on many of our rides.  One rider goes forward to a pre-determined point and warns oncoming riders that ATV's will be approaching at high-speed.

It's not going to get better in ONF if people continue to abuse it.  It's the Ocala National Forest, not the Ocala National ATV Park.

[stacktester]

Very well said. Hopefully this thread is done unless somebody has something positive to say.

[novadave]

The trash problem in the forest was from the locals dumping it, so don't put that on use. And i'm pretty sure that there weren't any atv'ers setting up meth labs out there either.

[Eworm]

There wouldn't be any fear of fast riding if the trails were one way, but i guess its gunna take someone getting hurt to fix this problem. Two riders hitting head on both doing 20 mph on a blind corner is gunna hurt. We don't need to argue about this we are on the same side . We are both atv riders.

Statistically speaking, one-way trails are no safer than two-way trails.  Here is why:
People riding one-way trails tend to ride faster, counting on the fact that there is no traffic coming at them.  As a result, they end up hitting other obstacles (trees, stumps, roots, animals) with equal or greater speed than they would on a two-way trail system.  When they hit those obstacles they get hurt, period.  Additionally, one-way trails are often compromised by people who don't follow the rules anyhow, thus turning your one-way trail security blanket (and you on your ATV) on it's head.  And lastly, in emergencies, riders will almost ALWAYS take the shortest route back to the trail origin regardless of one-way or not, once again making the one-way trail more dangerous than a two-way trail.

The moral of the story:  Trail riding CAN AND WILL BE DANGEROUS.  The more speed you add, the more dangerous.  If you want to be able to ride anywhere, everywhere, and however you want start saving money to buy your own land.
[/quote]

Your opinion seems to be the only thing you care about. Remember what they say about those. Perhaps, thinking outside the box can enlighten you as to the reality of this situation.
IMO it is safe to say that an accident involving speed with a single rider and tree is much better than a head on collision with two riders, no? Speed does not kill or hurt if under a controlled enviroment. As for the emergencies, this can be easily overcome by creating exit trails to trail heads. This is the set up in most two way systems and it is a fact that it works.

[SpeedQuest]

The trash problem in the forest was from the locals dumping it, so don't put that on use. And i'm pretty sure that there weren't any atv'ers setting up meth labs out there either.

Funny, the locals must have a steady stream of Zephyrhills water bottles, Coke cans, and Budweiser cans.  But why would they haul them all the way into the middle of the Tobacco Patch trail and then dump them one by one on the trails scattered over 50 miles long?  When we rode just prior to Christmas, we took out about 40 bottles and cans that were on the trails.

By the way, people who do illegal drugs in the Ocala National Forest aren't necessarily manufacturing the drugs there.  And just for the record, people that are doing the drugs in the ONF really want you to pretend like it's not happening.  Ignoring the problem doesn't make it legal, nor does it make it non-existant.

Speed does not kill or hurt if under a controlled enviroment.

I think that's what they establish speed limits for, and the speed limit is in place.  We don't get to pick and choose who use the trails, nor do we get to pick and choose what those individuals do when they are on the trails.  All the Forest Service can do is establish rules to:

a)  minimize ATV's impact on the environment
b)  minimize risk of injuries

Once those are done, then they must police them and enforce them with warnings, tickets and fines.  That seems to be the part that none of us want.  We don't mind rules that restrict other people's abilities in the forests, but we don't want to be restricted ourselves. 

[auctioneer]

Speedy you are right and I have been around and grew up in ONF as I have been in it more than Half the years that its been a national forest ( I am Over 55) I remember when you could camp hunt and play UNHARASSED. I have never riding a atv there except working on forest fires They are also right about most of the trash being dumped by local redneck don't give a damn construction people Or people fed up with the local county GOV because they make it hard to do it legal. as they closed a lot of the dump areas. when I was a kid I had an old jeep a small kicker boat and we hunted and fished all over the ONF. We weren't hanging in gangs or messing up stuff If we drank a beer or a ;liquor drink we did it in our camp and didn't drive as my dad knew the game warden that was over the area and he would have caught us and took us home to get our butt beat. We didnt kill much over the limit and we ate what we caught and what we killed. It was a great place to grow up Now you cant rid threw there with out getting stopped or having a pile of paper work or a set of law books to know the regs IT SUCKS

[AintSkeered]

http://www.arra-access.com/arra/washingtonnewsletter_jun2009.html

[zman03]

I have not been back to ocala in several years cause of all the rules and regs now! I personally like riding fast with my friends in the trails. I can tell you we always talk before the ride and safety is the #1 priority (ours and other riders). We all agree and if we see or come up to other riders on the trail we slow down to idle (1st) gear or stop, never intimidating others or making them feel uncomfortable or in danger. I can tell you I have great respect for the people who like to ride slow and with their families cause I too ride with mine. I think that these trails should have been better planned and they should have seperate trails for the different types of users!!! This was in my opinion the cheapest and easiest way for the DOF to say well theres your trails for atv's, all the while knowing this was only going to satisfy one type of recreationalist. The fact that faster riders tear up the trails more, well dont we pay these people to groom the trails??  thats hardly a argument!!   The forrest gets more damage from the lumber companies  than what an ATV could do in a hundred years!!!  Croom is a great example, its been around for over thirty years and still doing fine!!!  I hope more guys who ride aggressively will consider the slower riders and remember in the end we are all enthusiast and need each others help. I know whether you are slow or fast the day I am needed on the trail you can count on me or my buddies to help and I hope we see each other at camp to swap stories one day.       

[stacktester]

Well said Zman. I'm not saying I want to ride idle all the time but I do take my daughter some and it kills me when people fly past us with no regard to safety. I've ridden many times fast through the forest but on straightaways not 90 degree turns as some do. I'm looking forward to the trail system connecting up to the Centennial trail someday. That will make for a good day ride.