Badluck/Squares Update: The Fat Lady has Sung

[450R_Matt]

Collier County is gettin slim on riding spots. Fellow ATVers are starting to feel like wild animals froced out of there territory

[ONEslowEXer]

I'm gunna through my bike in the back of my truck and ride out there tonight. I gotta see if the chase me off ....we got a group ride on sat. will report back tonight

[innocent_bystander]

Got a response from Hank Graham, District Manger, DOF:

There seems to be some disagreement between DOF and FWC with regard to enforcement of ATV use.  Our policy has not changed.  We are still allowing ATV’s to be used in the Forest.  However, FWC officers are enforcing their WMA rules which do not allow ATV’s.  I have spoken with their Regional Director in West Palm and asked him to address this issue.  He assures me he is working on it and hopefully we will get this resolved soon.  I apologize for any problems.  Thank you for your correspondence.



Hank Graham


We need to press them for an answer. This proves that DOF and FWC are screwed up and are not together on this, thats comming from the District Manager.

[Redgrizzly660]

Great work Inno.
Thanks

Grizz

[budman]

That was a test. well 2 tests. 1. to see if the Rancher runs upside down. ..  2.  see if the cooler can hold 2 bags of ice,  3 full B/L's and 9 empty's. hehe and it past both tests.

hmmmm... thats why I keep the "Standard" buds in my cooler....the added calories not only help in the spare tire department, but keeps the rubber down, where it belongs. Whenever the Bud/Miller Lite ratio goes too far to the left of bud, we do experience some "handling problems".  

[sk8r_dude]

Finally, a Government official admitting that one department has no idea what the other is doing. Now, who has the authority in bad luck/squares FWC or DOF or both?

[500runner]

i bet you will hear soon that FWC takes complete controll and kicks the DOF out of there.  theres goes more of our great amout of $$$ from the title scam to pay  the FWC, to purchase AIRBOATS,&ATVs to use to patrol out there!!!!!! and at this time it looks bad for the OCALA N. F there going to take most of the forest away from atvers and will be allowed on 13mi loop trail system!!    we need ban together and buy are our rideing areas  because the TREE HUGGERS will not go away.  croom will be the next TREE HUGGER attack !! the DOF cant fight the big FWC ....  again please stop the title scam  dont send in your $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[JeffP]

I can't believe some of you guys are still in the denile stage.  It's coming and it's right around the corner.  Why would badluck be any different then the other half dozen places they've locked down this year?

Face it riding in Florida is over with the exception of Croom, limited ONF area, and the couple of private locations such as SE etc.

The writing has been on the wall all along.

[familyatvers]

Attached is an E-Mail I sent tonight to Gov. Bush (jeb.bush@myflorida.com) and the Naples Daily News.  I urge all of you to also keep the letters, phone calls and e-mails flowing to all agencies. Let them know we are a cohesive group and are determined to keep State land open to us.

Gov.Bush,
  I feel I can speak for many of the recreational atv/swamp buggy outdoorsmen and women in our fine state.  I feel this is especially poignent on this the weekend of the Swamp Buggy Parade and races, here in Naples.(Billed as a Florida tradition)  
  Most of us in the above categories consider ourselves a strong portion of the Conservative base and cherish our rights afforded us constitutionally.  We enjoy the outdoors and all strive to raise our children with the same amazement for nature we hold so dearly.  
  The reason I feel Swamp Buggy weekend holds so much importance at this time is myself as many others, no longer own woods buggies.  Why?
  State, County and Federal agencies have systematically and aggressively closed basically all the lands once enjoyed by the recreational buggyowners and atv'ers.  
Recently FWC(Fish and Wildlife Commission) began warning ORV (off road vehicles)that they were not welcome in the Picayune State Park, and would be subject to fines and impoundments of their vehicles. They were further warned the prohibited area included the Bad Luck Prairie lands.  During the same time-frame DOF (Forestry) were handing out leaflets to those partaking of the Picayune State Park, that we were welcome there with the understanding that Helmet and Camping regulations would be enforced.  DOF advises they share jurisdiction with FWC but are the primary jurisdictional agency per the State Park charter, FWC officers claim their jurisdiction is primary over DOF always, and will continue to enforce as they see fit.  State agencies not knowing "Who's on First", makes our state government seem disorganized and non-cohesive.  I request your intervention to keep our heritage and lands open for recreational ORV use.
Sincerely, Jeff LeBlanc, Naples,FL

[Warrior]

Attached is an E-Mail I sent tonight to Gov. Bush (jeb.bush@myflorida.com) and the Naples Daily News.  I urge all of you to also keep the letters, phone calls and e-mails flowing to all agencies. Let them know we are a cohesive group and are determined to keep State land open to us.

Gov.Bush,
  I feel I can speak for many of the recreational atv/swamp buggy outdoorsmen and women in our fine state.  I feel this is especially poignent on this the weekend of the Swamp Buggy Parade and races, here in Naples.(Billed as a Florida tradition)  
  Most of us in the above categories consider ourselves a strong portion of the Conservative base and cherish our rights afforded us constitutionally.  We enjoy the outdoors and all strive to raise our children with the same amazement for nature we hold so dearly.  
  The reason I feel Swamp Buggy weekend holds so much importance at this time is myself as many others, no longer own woods buggies.  Why?
  State, County and Federal agencies have systematically and aggressively closed basically all the lands once enjoyed by the recreational buggyowners and atv'ers.  
Recently FWC(Fish and Wildlife Commission) began warning ORV (off road vehicles)that they were not welcome in the Picayune State Park, and would be subject to fines and impoundments of their vehicles. They were further warned the prohibited area included the Bad Luck Prairie lands.  During the same time-frame DOF (Forestry) were handing out leaflets to those partaking of the Picayune State Park, that we were welcome there with the understanding that Helmet and Camping regulations would be enforced.  DOF advises they share jurisdiction with FWC but are the primary jurisdictional agency per the State Park charter, FWC officers claim their jurisdiction is primary over DOF always, and will continue to enforce as they see fit.  State agencies not knowing "Who's on First", makes our state government seem disorganized and non-cohesive.  I request your intervention to keep our heritage and lands open for recreational ORV use.
Sincerely, Jeff LeBlanc, Naples,FL

But the DOF website says ATVs are prohibited:

http://www.fl-dof.com/state_forests/Forest_Fees.html

Has anyone found documentation that can be printed and carried with you if and when stopped?. Or perhaps an e-mail from a good source with a number to be called as backup?

Thanks...

[Warrior]

Some VERY interesting reading...:

T. MARK SCHMIDT OFF-HIGHWAY VEHICLE RECREATION GRANT PROGRAM
1. SPECIAL TERMS, CONDITIONS AND SPECIFICATIONS
A. INTRODUCTION
The growth in the use of off-highway vehicles [all terrain vehicles (ATV) and off-highway
motorcycles (OHM)] has steadily increased in Florida over the past several years. According to
Florida’s 2002 Statewide Comprehensive Outdoor Recreation Plan, four-wheel ATVs have had a
dramatic increase in popularity and are gaining widespread use in all parts of the state among
hunters, competitors, and those who merely enjoy riding them. An estimated 110,000 ATVs alone
are in use in Florida according to figures developed by motorized recreation groups. However,
with this growth, there are a very limited number of legal areas to ride on public lands. In order
to accommodate the increasing number of OHV users in Florida and adequately protect
sensitive Florida ecosystems, more areas need to be identified, planned, and developed.
B. PURPOSE
The purpose of T. Mark Schmidt Off-Highway Vehicle Grant Program (hereinafter referred to as
the OHV Grant Program) is to provide financial assistance to governmental agencies or eligible
applicants (see Section F - Eligibility Requirements) in order to provide or improve off-highway
vehicle recreational areas or trails for public use on public lands. Through the Off-Highway
Vehicle Titling Program, the State of Florida has been allocated $726,000 for state Fiscal Year
2004-05. The primary purpose of the OHV Grant Program is to provide and/or improve offhighway
riding opportunities on public lands by establishing and/or maintaining existing or new
riding areas; provide environmental protection and restoration to affected natural areas in the
system; provide enforcement of applicable regulations related to the system and off-highway
vehicle activities; provide safety, training, and rider education in the operation of off-highway
vehicles; and if funds are available, acquire lands to be included in the system and manage,
maintain, and rehabilitate such lands. Total funding available for grants will be recommended
by the Off-Highway Vehicle Recreation Committee on an annual basis and approved by the
Commissioner of the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services and appropriated by
the Florida Legislature.
The OHV Grant Program is intended to help state, federal, and local governments, state and
federally recognized tribal units with lands in Florida, volunteer groups, and nonprofit
organizations to plan, develop, and rehabilitate facilities and lands associated with off-highway
use and not meant to be a continual funding source for staffing such areas.

-------------------------------------------

Source: http://www.fl-dof.com/Recreation/OHV/Grant0405.html

Any comments?

[Warrior]

Got a response from Hank Graham, District Manger, DOF:

There seems to be some disagreement between DOF and FWC with regard to enforcement of ATV use.  Our policy has not changed.  We are still allowing ATV’s to be used in the Forest.  However, FWC officers are enforcing their WMA rules which do not allow ATV’s.  I have spoken with their Regional Director in West Palm and asked him to address this issue.  He assures me he is working on it and hopefully we will get this resolved soon.  I apologize for any problems.  Thank you for your correspondence.



Hank Graham


We need to press them for an answer. This proves that DOF and FWC are screwed up and are not together on this, thats comming from the District Manager.

I just wrote Mr. Graham and put my 2 cents in, this is what I wrote:

Dear Mr. Graham,

I understand you are working on finding out information regarding this topic. I would like to know if you have been able to find any relevant information. Also, would you provide a letter, via e-mail, that we can print and carry with us, in case we are pulled over by DOF Officers. Perhaps one with your name, title and phone numbers.

As you probably already know, there seems to be much confusion and/or jurisdiction issues between DOF and FWC, one agency says "come in and enjoy, just make sure you wear a helmet" and you are waved on. The other says "you are not allowed to operate ATVs in this area, you have to leave".

What is being done to take advantage of the "T. Mark Schmidt Off-Highway Vehicle Recreation Grant Program"?, What is being done with the $726,000.00 allocated to the State of Florida for this purpose?

Looking forward to your prompt response.

[Warrior]

More info found in the South Florida Water Management District website regarding Picayune:

Off Road Vehicle (ORV) Use

Past ORV use has been primarily associated with access for hunting and allied activities. Swamp buggies and four-wheel drive trucks were used, while all terrain vehicles (ATVs) have been utilized in more recent times. ORV’s and street legal vehicles may be allowed in conjunction with recommended public uses. Vehicles will be restricted to designated roads. When public access is established in Flint Pen Strand, several existing buggy trails will be designated for use by vehicles. All other vehicle regulations will remain unmodified.

[Gamer]

I can't believe some of you guys are still in the denile stage.  It's coming and it's right around the corner.  Why would badluck be any different then the other half dozen places they've locked down this year?

Face it riding in Florida is over with the exception of Croom, limited ONF area, and the couple of private locations such as SE etc.

The writing has been on the wall all along.

JeffP I can't believe your talking like that.  The new Mark T Off-Road highway act is a law that requires the state to find new riding areas.  DOF is in charge of finding the riding areas.  Picayune Strand is a State Forrest and DOF has already promised to find an area to either ride in Picayune or somewhere close by.  There's a reason Hank Graham says that DOF's position has not changed and is going to continue to let ATV's in the forrest.  Hank Graham appears to be on our side and fighting to let us continue to ride in there.  I say the next thing everyone does is call that FWC office in West Palm and ask for some clarification.  I still believe in that ATV Park in Picayune and we need to fight for it.

[Gamer]

Here's the number to FWC's South Office.  I'm going to call them first thing Monday and ask for the person in charge of Picayune.  If they can't get me in touch with that person then I'll ask for an email address and let you all know.

South Region
8535 Northlake Boulevard
West Palm Beach, FL 33412
(561) 625-5122

[stick_rider]

hey this is sean i had just gotten off phone with the florida diision of forestry he told me that they dont mind the riding and gave me some info that there is a lawer in your area named Douglas L Ranken realastate lawer we need to get with him and he had also told me  that ther is a lot of atv shops in your area that want to get to the bottom of this the DOF said to form a ralley and see what they do about then they will back us see if you can get any of your freinds out there i know i can round up about 100 or so maybe even more

if any ? feal free to call 305-216-4932

[500runner]

The FWC is not allowing ATV use, because of the hunnters that got the 1st time permmit to hunt there , the FWC said there game is getting to much pressure from ATV use.  i bet after hunting season, FWC will let up a little that is when the DOF HAS TO STAND UP AND GET IN THERE!!!

[Mars]

The FWC is not allowing ATV use, because of the hunnters that got the 1st time permmit to hunt there , the FWC said there game is getting to much pressure from ATV use.  

Smells like poop to me. People have been hunting out there for years. The area is listed as "poor" in the FWC hunting guide. I'm sure it will get better when the water table is three feet higher.
I have had more deer and bears in my yard than I have seen out there in 10 years.

[dirty1]

well for years Big cypress has been shared by hunters and pleasure riders, so that is not the issue, i was in the national parks office today and they says its all up to the DOF,  what i feel is 'we who do ride out there need to tread lightly and not draw attention as to give them a reason to kick us out, now as for the FWC  my boss is an ex officer an he says since it went from game and fish commision to FWC they really dont have much communication between departments, most FWC officers out there are part time guys lookinf to make there hours for the month,  from an FWC employes mouth"write to a senator, or someone else besides the FWC"..................

[Warrior]

Just spoke with Lisa Douglas at the Division of Forestry.  She was a super nice lady.  They are not certain what is going on with the Squares and said there is 3 agencies claiming authority of the area but that they have not been restricting ATVS.  She promised to try and get back to us today with some better answers.  

I also just realized that the times I stopped to speak with a FWC officer I was in a truck or jeep with a license plate. Everytime I've been on my 4wheeler they just wave, so I may stand corrected on the State Forest laws and OHVs.  In the past we used to get a OHV permit for State Forests but I believe that with the exception of Croom that has been removed.

Any answers from this Lisa Douglas lady?

[Warrior]

Just sent an e-mail to governor Bush, here is what I wrote:

Dear Mr. Bush,

There is a riding site located at Picayune State Park, seems to be much confusion and/or jurisdiction issues between DOF and FWC, one agency says "come in and enjoy, just make sure you wear a helmet" and you are waved on. The other says "you are not allowed to operate ATVs in this area, you have to leave".  We need your help regarding this issue, the bottom line is that apparently the patrol officers are not aware of the decisions being made by higher commands. In the end the officers on patrol are the ones enforcing the rules, but they seem to be getting different orders other than the information being given to us, the public.

I have sent messages to both agencies, but have not received a concrete response. The only response given is that the information has been passed on to the appropriate person or persons, but have seen no results.

I would like to know what is being done to take advantage of the "T. Mark Schmidt Off-Highway Vehicle Recreation Grant Program"?, What is being done with the $726,000.00 allocated to the State of Florida for this purpose?

Looking forward to your prompt response as well as some results.

[bbf]

keep on going we may get somewhere

[Braswell305]

are you still allowed to ride out htere if so were do you get the permit at?

[Warrior]

YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do you feel now, JeffP..., haha! We got them on our side now, this is GREAT!

[JeffP]

YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do you feel now, JeffP..., haha! We got them on our side now, this is GREAT!

LOL I'm not the bad guy.  So far this is like a temporary stay of execution.  Nothing is in writing yet but I hope it works out.  It's the only place in the southern half of the state where people can ride.

I'm still of the opinion Jeb is on the side of the popular vote right now and will sign whatever it takes to get that populus vote.  Which woln't be us.  We make up maybe .05% of the population.

Enjoy it and respect it as long as you can.  Some time is better then none.