ATV Rally

[Stewards]

Hey Dreth and everyone else this message is for all of you.

I have been reading some of the posts about your rally. Dreth by locking that post, you have admitted that some of the allegations that were being made is true.

You can read this and take my comments or you can bury your head in the sand.

If you have not crossed all your i's and dotted all your T's for this rally, if anything whatsoever goes wrong, all of you might as well sell your ATV's because there will not be a place to ride. I will emphasis that again no place to ride.

As I look at this now it looks like your i's are not dotted and your T's are not crossed.

One of the items taken off one of the message boards -

Uh-oh. No helmets, riding two up, no eye protection, etc. The intro says the rally is to show the State reps and news reporters how much you care about riding ATV's, but I think there is a very good chance it's going to backfire and create the wrong impression.

Hopefully no one gets hurt or killed riding with no helmet, two up on an ATV made for one person, while wearing shorts and flip flops. The media will eat that up, and the rally will harm the sport more than help it.

That is only a part of what I am finding on message boards. If I am finding this on message boards, don't you think the news media can get a hold of it, how about the environmentalist, they have already closed part of the forest due to messages as this on board. Don't you think they will use this video and anything else on the message boards against you?

Chuck - it does not make a difference whether they are dirt bikers or not, yes it makes a difference it makes a difference to everyone. It is that kind of attitude that is going to sink this ship. It makes a difference to the whole OHV world.

You keep telling everyone you put hard work into it, well maybe you did, but your hard work will be naught if the news media gets a hold of that video. News media doesn't like ATV's anyway, you are just fueling their fire.

There are other indications that you and your organization are not on top of this rally and or your sport.

Example - it was crazy how that rhino just plowed through that wall of vines and tree's. should of got a picture of that.  I hear Chillin's going to be giving lessons on how to truly go fast during the Rally.

The news media will pick this up about Chillins and eat it alive. The environmentalist will love what was said about vines and trees. There are ways to cut trails, there are tools to cut trails. Whether you were joking about this or not, it won't be taken as a joke, it will be used against you as it has in the past.

One last comment - if you Dreth can't fight Lisa and Viper what is going to happen when you have to face the environmentalist face to face, or the water management people face to face, my guess is you will send in Aorginal, alot of times if you are going to fight for your cause, they don't want to hear from a lawyer. They will probably turn their backs.

If you don't start to dot your i's and cross your t's, this rally is going to be a black eye for your sport. If this post offends anyone I apologize for that it was not meant to offend.

Joan
Stewards

[GrizzlyGator]

  t        i                 
         

[duroc825]

Sounds like another undercover spy operation going on . That makes three people I know of that I have my doubts about their intentions for joining and posting on this site.

[duroc825]

Instead of potentially opening up more problems why don't these people just contact Dreth with a PM . Seems as though some on here just become involved with this site to fight the government. I believe I speak for the majority of members here and we don't want to fight and complain,we want solutions and are trying to achieve that with no other motives whatsoever.

[gearhead400]

The media will ALWAYS eat us up. If we do nothing, nothing good will happen. If this rally does hurt us more than help us (which i doubt) then atleast we did SOMETHING as a group to try and get more riding areas. Dont be such a damn pessimist, theres always going to be something the media can get at us with.

Yea i understand now that i shouldnt of made that post about the vines and trees but i've seen much worse at construction sites for wal-mart.

[gearhead400]

#6.TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

hahahhahah

[tony pitts]

 it sounds like you dont like atv's yourself. first of all we were given permission to cut the trails. it doesnt matter how you cut them run over or cut whats the difference. if you think cutting a trail is going to hurt anything.maybe you should contact some developers and b!tch at them. the only reason the environmentalist B!itch about us is because we dont fatten there pockets like everyone else is.this rally is to show numbers of people in our sport.so either join us or leave us. if you can do it better give some ideas or shut the f.... up

[Chillinthemost]

We used my Rhino to "plow" through briars that were too thick to walk through. I am not even going to ride at the rally. That was just my buddy ribbing me. I personoly think that everyone that comes to this event will be there for the right reasons and act accordingly. I will personally "escort" anyone out the gate that tries to ruin it.

[Anoriginal]

Stewards:

You are as off base as it gets. Lets review and hopefully clarify things a little for you.

First, the Rhino issue. Chillin's Rhino was used to make trails in an area designated for trails. It was not a matter of him plowing over sensitive plant life with reckless abandon. Rather, it was developing a new trail as asked by the property owners.

Second, Chillin giving lessons on going fast. Guess what? I made the comments and I still think it was funny. Remember, this is taking place at a location set aside for riding and going fast. It's a race track! If Chillin or anyone else for that matter wants to put on his or her gear, fire it up and make some hot laps, what's the problem? After all, it's what we love to do and what we are fighting for. Not sure what your point is.

Third, Dreth and the rest are on top of things for the rally. We are working on ensuring a safe environment for all. You seem to have condemned us all before the first switch is thrown. Your comments are like Lisa's who is obviously upset at the fact that FL4WDA failed relative to Babcock. (which incidentally was a done deal years before she got involved........no ORV use was part of the very first purchase/sale draft ever developed) Often, people assume that because they can't get something accomplished, nobody else can. Typical in a "give zero ground" mentality. If we succeed, better for all of us. If we fail, then at least we know we tried. There is nothing wrong with that. Oh, and I'll be another one helping Chillin escort people to the gate that cannot control their actions.

Fourth, nobody was fighting Viper or Lisa. Rather, they were constructively asked to back up their allegations with fact. They never did. As far as Dreth being able to fight them off, so what if he sends me in? That's what an association with multiple members of different skills is for. So, yeah, maybe he sends me in. That's why I am here. I'll set it straight, plain and back it up with fact. You'll get no innuendo or idle threats from me. I've got no problem handling Viper, Lisa and now you.

It's amazing that people will actually make and effort to drown out the good in something just to satisfy the cloud over their own head. Get on board or go away.

[Paul_S]

Wow, what a coincidence. True story, I was on the phone at midnight last night talking to Dreth about the Rally and we were wondering why we had not heard from the Stewards. Low and behold - good morning, here you are 

Quite honestly, sometimes it has been very difficult to work out from the posts you three (Stewards, Lisa & Viper) make, whether you are actually for ATV's or not. The constant attacks on ONFA have completely alienated you guys from the rest of us. The patronizing tones etc. are really not going to endear you to anyone.

People ride ATV's without helmets and eye protection. It obviously not as safe as riding with one on but until they change the law, people have the choice to ride how they want. I drove past 3 or 4 county workers yesterday working by the side of I-75 and they were not wearing helmets. People are used to seeing people without helmets on ATV's. Just because one dirt bike rider from GA thought it may be detrimental, it does not make it true.

Some people just like to be critical, look at the way people bash on ONFA and now us. You can't help that, it is just the nature of some people.

My personal opinion is only a fool would think the Rally is going to be detrimental to our sport. It is going to be a great event. It is going to unite riders from across the State. We are not perfect though, and after the Rally, we will monitor the reaction from the press and the general public. There may be some things we might change for our next one, but you cannot seriously tell me that if we are successful in uniting 10,000 plus riders, this will not offset any of the small mistakes we MAY make while we are learning.

The thing you three forget is for the most part we are all friends. We ride together, camp together and know each other. I have personally ridden with hundreds of people from these forums and have yet to meet someone I did not like. Dreth has ridden with many more. Many of us are like a large extended family. That is why we will succeed. You guys are welcome to join the family, but please stop criticizing and start helping.

I am deadly serious here, you guys should volunteer for the Dunk Tank. I bet the members of the ONFA alone, will pay a small fortune to try and dunk you. If you start to step up and help, you will get a lot more respect.

Lisa wrote that nobody has asked her to help, this is not true - I asked EVERYBODY to help, some stepped up and some did not. The association has members from NPORA and ATVMIAXTREME, these guys are maintaining their own identity, while also trying to help out too. I heard nothing from her and nothing from you guys either.

The point raised regarding the Rhino is strange. Machinery is used to clear land, be it cutting a trail or clearing a lot for a new Target or Wal-Mart. The public know this. The thing you guys missed, is the fact that behind "Chillin" were a bunch of us, on foot clearing the trail with machetes. Most of us will not be riding the day of the rally, we just did it so a lot of other people will have an enjoyable day.

I personally think you guys are shooting yourselves in the foot here. Lisa has always stated that she wants the members of ATVFL to pay her to be a full time lobbyist, Stewards has tried to get ATV riders to join with them. It is not too late for you guys to achieve this, but do you really think that alienating the very people you are trying to attract is the best way?

[Joedirt]

This is something that has never been done before , how can you make assumptions on anything that may happen. This is not a Mudfest...This is a Protest..there is a safe place to use your ATV on the grounds ( Track and Trails).

I have read every post pertaining to ATV rights , and I have not seen Didly squat from the Stewards , LISA , or Viper. Finally someone is on the cusp of doing what you folks could only talk about on a Saturday night around the campfire with your friends.

Lisa you talk a good game and have posted about a statewide ATV associations and I personally responded to your Post that My group of almost 50 + riders would be interested. You never replied or organized anything. You are excellent at pointing out the Shortcomings of the Ocala Nat Forest Ass., but that is where it ends.

Stewards...Your cloak and dagger beginnings caused you to lose all Credibility with me...You are negative and you do not even Know it.

Viper you post Legitimate questions at times....but you are not Interested in the answers..you like to read what you have typed...end of story.


Call Dreth on His Cell Phone , or Email any of the appointed members of the Newly founded Association.
If you Truly wanted to help you all would handle this in a Professional manner , posting openly is a clear cut case of trying to cause a Mutiny.

The recent post by you folks makes any credibility to become null and void...quite frankly I now question your motives. Prove us wrong work with The TEAM.....show up..and Help...otherwise Go Away.


If you are truly genuine , you will sit back and think...and Hopefully realize YOU guys have failed in the past due to the Un-proffesionalism  you have Illustrated to us here in these forums.

[1FasterBlaster]

   As far as I can see, every point you have tried to shoot us down with has been stuffed back at you.Maybe you should check your T's and I's before questioning your accuser's.
   Designated trails being made, to lessons to ride fast.How do you think we expect everyone to learn the proper way to ride...with the lessons from experienced riders.
   My question to you is,"Why did you join this forum?" If we are destined to fail,then let us do it our way, without your useless input.We are trying to do our homework without cheating off of your answer sheet...thank you very much, but no thanks!!
   I wish you would just buy a quad and ride, it would change your whole outlook when you see how friendly and respectful everyone is to each other.I think it is the number one most important reason why I love this sport.I've been riding for 3 years and I can go anywhere by myself, and meet some total strangers who will then be my friends.It provides me with fun recreation and social interaction for myself, along with my whole family.Isn't this what life is about? We don't hate you,and we certainly don't want to fight.We just want you to see the light the way we do.Get a quad...have some fun in your life and make some friends!!
   You know the date, come see for yourself!!

[JackL]

Can't wait for the rally, and now I have to find this video.

[bigscrub79]

WOW, I was gonna post a response when I read your post Stewards but it looks like everyone else beat me to it. I really do wish that yourself, Lisa, and Viper would quit thinking that we are the enemy here. We are not out to hurt the sport, when in fact we are here to help it out. Maybe the three of you have never heard the old adage, you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. Hopefully you will jump on board and actually help rather than attack us around every corner. Constructive criticism is a good thing, but the criticism from yall is not helping anything.

[lswjth2]

I cannot vouch for stewards of the land or viper, but i can and will vouch for LISA. When i was requesting help fighting SFWMD here in Collier county, she was the one that called me and tried to help me in anyway she could and she's not even from SW Florida. I know that her bluntness probably turns off a bunch of people, but she FIGHTS more than 98% of the people here and she does not ride an ATV. She believes and fights for what i believe, public access for public lands.You may not like they way she delivers her messages, or the way she ask other members questions, but she fights so that the rest of us  can keep our areas open.She has very factually pointed out who the "bad guys" are. It may be people we interact with and like as people but when you look at who they are mixed with, you have to question what the real motive is.

Here's an example of Linda Duever's report. Do you really think she's pro atv or pro access???

http://www.defenders.org/habitat/florvs/

This is something that LISA pointed out. read it, then answer the question. LISA is  one of the good guys/girls.......

[Inyourdraft2000]

One thing I tend to do when people are negative or act the way these 3 individuals has is go to their profile and read all their last post. It sets some ground work for who they are.
Lisa comes accross as an alright person when she is in her element which is the ONF, then she comes over here on the Rally side and gives the impression to me she is upset because people are uniting and in her eyes no one wanted to get together when she wanted to start something.
Viper for the most part has been Lisa's supporter because most of his post contain ONF information , other then that has not posted anything of great value.
Here is the one that confuses me the most. When I read  Stewards I noticed several of her post ending w/ TheDirtyGirls email.
Correct me if I missed something but are they not being represented on our flyers as sponsors. If she is on our flyers under the Dirtygirls address and then cmes in here trying to pick us apart wouldn't that make her a sheep in Wolfs clothing.

Now for Lisa, Viper and Stewards, if you look at all the responses w/ an exception of one of mine and maybe one or 2 others you can plainly see what a great bunch of people we have and the responses you have been given invite you to be a part of something great.
Go back in time when you and I were in High School, do you remember the PEP Rallys and how exciting they were. They were out there pumping people up for the big game or event. As for our Rally thats what we are doing now, pumping people up and informing people.
The Association questions should be handled in the Association forumn or directly w/ those who are members of it. This site offers a wealth of information much more but it is not a good idea to come in here and shoot down other peoples ambitions and dreams.

If you are not an ATV Enthusiast here are a couple of thoughts. If you want a great double stacker cheeseburger you go to a burger joint, you most times will not get it in a seafood joint. Dont go to a Burger joint and expect great seafood.
Why would you come here and surround your self w/ people who have complete differant interest as you.
It is kind of like showing up to play football while wearing a ski suit, they just dont go together.
The ball has already been put in your court, either play with us or go home.

[Stewards]

I truly apologize if you all think that my posts are meant as negatives - it was not meant to be that way. It was meant to give you another pair of eyes, hind sight 20/20. I have as much to lose on this rally as every in this sport, I want to see it come off also, we don't need a black eye.

[Paul_S]

The fact of the matter is that we expected this negativity from a couple of groups/individuals, we have been waiting for it, it was always likely that the same people who attack the ONFA would start scrutinising what we are doing. You say you want to help, and you are concerned, but then you go and air in a forum that anyone has access too, the very thing you claim to be concerned with, drawing more light to the issue. That is why your concerns do not sound credible.

We have to be diplomatic, if you knew how much time & effort people like Shawn, myself and others have put into this rally you would understand why it is so irritating to read this. You guys almost come off like you want us to fail. This may not be true, but it is apparent that it reads this way to more people than just myself.

I trust the words of lswjth2 and if he says Lisa is pro our cause I believe him. Your organization may be pro ATV too. But as I previously posted, you guys have the opportunity to be positive as well as negative.

Naysayers, the ball is in your court, if you want to help us and join in, we welcome you.  If you choose not too, that is fine too, but please try not to be critical in an open arena, it hurts us all.

If you want to judge us, then meet us, talk to us. That is the way to decide what we are about. It is too easy to study mission statements etc. then sit there on your computer pulling what we wrote apart.  The fact is we are going to try and open or preserve access to as much land as possible. We have members all over the State, we are not confined to one area. We have some members who want to fly around on sport bikes, we have other members who want to drive around with a can of budweiser in one hand and a set of Mardi Gras beads in the other & we have a whole group in the middle.

Trying to satisfy such diverse group, over a whole State is going to be incredibly difficult. That is why we are actively seeking help in doing this. We are flexible and our approach in one area may be completely different to our approach in another.

My e-mail address is laptop@vol.com if you want to help, please contact me.

[bigscrub79]

we have other members who want to drive around with a can of budweiser in one hand and a set of Mardi Gras beads in the other

Budlight Paul, I am on a diet now.

I had the notion that Lisa and Stewards were possibly just playing devils advocate. If thats the case then fine, but please either say so from the begining or do it via PM or email. Like Paul said these concerns of yours dont need to be displayed in an open forum if you are truly trying to help.

[MadMudder]

I truly apologize if you all think that my posts are meant as negatives - it was not meant to be that way. It was meant to give you another pair of eyes, hind sight 20/20. I have as much to lose on this rally as every in this sport, I want to see it come off also, we don't need a black eye.

Ok from reading all this I putting in the fact that I have never met any of you face to face I only have this to say. What do YOU have to loose when this rally is concerned? From what I have gathered you dont ride or even own a quad. Most of your posts are negative and its not like you have poured time and effort into this like dreth or paul or anybody like that so please tell me and everyone else what is so important that having riders from accross the state come toghether and show everyone who we are is going to cost you...

[Chuck_Norris]

Chuck - it does not make a difference whether they are dirt bikers or not, yes it makes a difference it makes a difference to everyone. It is that kind of attitude that is going to sink this ship. It makes a difference to the whole OHV world.

Steward(Joan): amazing how you can twist my words to suit your needs. The comments I made were described on another website that is made up of a majority of Dirt Bike Riders with the intent of seeking their support. Yes It is about all OHV's but the description you are referring to is the on going saga of Dirt Bike riders and ATV riders not having similar views when it comes to shared riding areas. There are simply Dirt Bike riders that dont like ATV riders and vice versa. If you are not aware of that, then you are as blind to that as you are to the beliefs/intentions of our fellow riders here.  At the end of the day is about all OHV riders who are in jeapordy of loosing access to area mentioned. I am not going to be redundant with statements mentioned above , however I must agree with the below mentioned statement
 

now question your motives. Prove us wrong work with The TEAM.....show up..and Help...otherwise Go Away.
If you are truly genuine , you will sit back and think...and Hopefully realize YOU guys have failed in the past due to the Un-proffesionalism  you have Illustrated to us here in these forums.   PHQUE

You dont know me nor can you judge me, we are doing what you 3 have failed to accomplish. Raising awareness, your perseption is what it is.  I will respect what I have read about Lisa as it appears she is fighting. what have you done lately besides critize. If you cant see the positive with this event then dont look

I guess with this statement on your site we won't be getting much help from you

I can be considered I guess a tree hugger also, there are times when I just want peace and solitude of the wilderness, no motors, a simplier time in life.
Steward of the land
 

[450rcrazy]

I believe everyone attending the rally has the same goal and will hopefully act responsible and help us achieve these goals. I also believe it is better to try and end up failing than to never have tried at all. We are loosing riding areas every week by doing nothing, Hopefully by forming the atv association and organizing this rally we will be able to stop loosing areas and maybe begin to regain use of lost areas. If it were not for associations such as the NRA we would have lost our rights to bear arms by now. there are to many associations to list that have formed and protected our rights this is just another one and hopfully by organizing we can accomplish the task of keeping areas open for all OHVs to use.

[lisa]

  Couple of things I need to address here. I have never attacked or said the rally is a bad thing, just that I had reservations. Nothing more. I have also pointed out that the enemy will know what the board of this association is doing. Not attacking again, just FYI..... In fact, all my posts about this rally have been very neutral for me!

  Joedirt, you haven't heard from me, because I have not been ready to put things together yet. You would be asking questions that I needed to get answers to first. Then I got sick with the flu, then these guys said they are going to put this association together. I decided to hold off on starting something of mine, so that we are not competing for clubs, support, etc. (Does this sound like I have a bruised ego???  )

   Not saying anything till just a few days ago was also something I did to "help" this thing. Now ya'll want to attack me for things I haven't said, and put meanings into my posts that are not there. In each and everyone of my posts on this subject I have told ya'll good luck and wish you well type stuff. Dreth closed a thread (still don't have a solid reason why) after my post saying I am not going to fight about this anymore, good luck etc. (again, does this sound anything like what is being said about me here?)

   About Babcock, let it be...you are a Real Estate Lawyer and wouldn't know much about lobbying and how it works......if anyone wants to hear my side on it, they can get a hold of me through pm.

   Rick, thank you for all the support you have given me all this time. You are a true friend. I told you they don't  want me to have a solid part of this association, so don't worry about what you emailed me about. Good luck, if anyone can make a difference with this thing, you can!

    I hope that the cautions are heeded, that the clubs keep a close eye on what is being done. Associations doing things in secret is not a good thing. So far, the ONFA only has one set of minutes up on their site, if this association keeps things as secret, that is not a good thing.

    I don't have a very high opinion of most of the board. That is my opinion. That doesn't mean I don't wish them well, that I won't fight for their cause as long as it is what is right and good for the community. I am awed that these guys would get so bent over my thoughts, give them so much weight and be so worried that little old me isn't thrilled and glowing with praises for what they are doing. I have only stated my reservations and not even been nasty to the board members I usually am nasty to and about!

   That is about all I need to say. I am sure many folks are shocked I am not being as bad and nasty as I want to be or usually am, however, I do hope that the ATV crowd does get things together. If I am asked personally, not as a generality, I would love to help them out, but otherwise I won't lend my reputation to this thing until I see what/how they operate.

    As usual, good luck, hope all goes well.

   

[Paul_S]

Lisa

Comments like "I don't have a very high opinion of most of the board." are the exact reason why we could never ask you to be part of it.  I have a very high opinion of all of the board and we would never see eye to eye.

I also don't understand the constant references to secrets, of course we are going to conduct ourselves privately.  We are going to hold discussions, privately between the members, all voice our opinions, vote and then jointly take a stand.

Not everything has a sinister reasoning to it, I want to be able to state my thoughts to the people serving with me, knowing that every word I say is not going to be analysed, misquoted and published everywhere by a number of people out to see the association fail.  All of the board members need to be able to voice their opinions too, they are not going to freely do that with a bunch of "watchdogs" second guessing their every thought and idea.

I hope you do start your association. I don't think there can be too many people working towards a common goal. You obviously have a different approach than some of us, but that does not make one right and the other wrong.  Perhaps we will fail while you succeed, perhap we will succeed while you will fail, perhaps it will be something in between where we both have some measure of success. Either way, if the net result is we get and preserve more riding spots, we all win.

[lisa]

   Your meetings won't be secret from USFS. Ignoring whom board members are friendly with will lead to problems.

    My low opinion of the board stems from recent talks I have had with friends, and how the members of the board are reacting to my well wishes. That should be plain for any to see.

    There is no need for us to be competing for support. Since ya'll are so sure and have a handle on things go for it. I will continue to fight and ask support where and when it is needed. I will continue to provide information here, and hope that board members, as well as individuals will push the association in the way it should go.

    As far as the secret thing, well I already told you that USFS will be privy to what you say and do anyway. Only time will prove me right, I can wait. When I said not in secret, and stated about the ONFA meeting mintutes, I thought my meaning would have been clear.

    There is a time and place for the whole to be made aware of what you are doing, what information you have, etc. While somethings need to be held close, others must be made public. For instance, when I first found out about Forestry making parking spots along the power lines, I made descrete inquiries to whether they could legally do that or not. Having exhausted those avenues, I have approached Forestry directly and asked for all their information on contracts, memos, etc. with Progress Energy. Having been made aware of my next step, I will be asking for that through the Freedom of Information Act.

     Until I found out everything I could quietly, I didn't want Forestry to know what I was doing, hence kept it quiet. Now that I have found out that I need more information, I can freely tell what I am doing about this particular issue. Since your meetings will be broadcast to USFS, there is no need not to tell folks here what you are doing anyway, no need to keep anything secret from the board.....

     As always, good luck. Hope that it works out as you expect.