Byway meeting/ONFA

[lswjth2]

I want to jump in on this and share my experiences on fighting the "system". Let me start by saying that I have a lot of respect for Terry. I have never met him in person, but i thank him for all the work he has done in trying to work to keep places open.I also have a lot of respect for Lisa. Even though she's not an ATV'r, she stands for what what I stand, and that's a deep belief in keeping "PUBLIC AREAS PUBLIC".I guess there are areas where you may actually work and be part of the "process" in the decision making,however from my own personal experience, you cannot work with these agencies, they constantly work against you, use words like "compatible,sustainable,manageable," and so on. The only reason we have made some progress, and now after a year of fighting these a$$holes, is because we have caught them in just about every lie. Lee county is trying to get out from under the SFWMD basin,Collier county is threatening to sue,  and now it's when they want "our help"??SCREW THEM.If you were able to do the research that I have done, you will see how everyone is against us, not everywhere, but as a majority. Think about this for a minute, the state collects money from us to set aside riding areas, the state owns more than 5,000,000 acres, and not one acre is available to ride on. When we meet for our state wide rally, i hope to have sometime to speak and  I will share with you some of the things I know. For example, US fish and Wildlife is the agency that is keeping us out of the Picayune, not the Department of forestry or Florida game and fish. We are being kept out because we could potentially "disturb" the wildlife. US fish and wildlife is issuing a building permit for an 8,000 acre community that back right in to the Florida Panther Preserve(Big Cypress), where according to the EIR report is where the majority of panther activity happens.This is a bunch of CRAP, and we will only get some attention when we scream and howler, unfortunately when we try to get some kind of protest together only handful reply.I suggest that we as a group or any entity decide to either backup or fight any proposal that they do their homework very well. I for one was for the "everglades Restoration" project and I have officials from the state and federal agencies giving us reassurances in a public forum that we would continue to be able to ride out ATV and Swamp buggies, I even showed the video to the Collier county commissioners and the county manager and luckily they have decided to pursue this,but if they would have decided not to pursue it, we would have been SOL.So please be very careful before you support something, because as we are painfully aware of, the Devil is in the details...Rick

[viper]

You know what, Terry can be a good guy, the ONFA can be a good place, good guys and good places don't keep things open. The end result if the USFS wants to ONF closed, Terry ain't going to stop it. As far as keeping things open, the USFS is keeping it open.

Hate to argue with you Rick, but every one is entitled to opinions.

[lisa]

  ONFA is not necessarily the enemy, Terry is not necessarily the bad guy; however, when ONFA and Terry don't take a stand, how do you tell them from the bad guys? Where is the line drawn?

  I started this thread with the intent to get that line drawn and people to take a stand. Terry took a stand, my question to him, and the rest of you is the same; When ONFA is made a partner of the corridor (and it will be because the Board has a say on that), are Terry and the rest of you going to stay with ONFA despite your claim that you are against the corridor?

  Also, is the poll the Board must take going to be up in time for the general meeting or even the public meeting? Time is ticking away.....

  One last remark I want to make; Why isn't the Board of ONFA put up on their site? I couldn't find it....

[Stewards]

    Terry took a stand, my question to him, and the rest of you is the same; When ONFA is made a partner of the corridor (and it will be because the Board has a say on that), are Terry and the rest of you going to stay with ONFA despite your claim that you are against the corridor?
 

Lisa:

The bold in your comments, maybe New Years Eve got to me, but I am a little slow this morning, can you clarify what board.

Joan
Stewards of the Land

[Ida_Mann]

    Terry took a stand, my question to him, and the rest of you is the same; When ONFA is made a partner of the corridor (and it will be because the Board has a say on that), are Terry and the rest of you going to stay with ONFA despite your claim that you are against the corridor?
 

Lisa:

The bold in your comments, maybe New Years Eve got to me, but I am a little slow this morning, can you clarify what board.

Joan
Stewards of the Land

she means the board members of ONFA, I am one, Terry is the president of the board.

Id@

[lisa]

 Thanks Id@.

[lisa]

  Hey Id@, since you are an ONFA Board member, can you tell us who the other Board members are?

[Mars]

  SNIP
  Mars, I suggest you talk with the Collier County Commissioners and see where working "with" SFWMD and WMA has gotten them; right into the battle they are having down there right now. W;/hy? Because these agencies do not play by the rules. They play by their own agenda and the devil-may-care where the chips fall. That is why you don't have anywhere to ride down there. 

  I know Rick Varela has been working hard to get trails opened back up down there. He has come closer than anyone else has and he has not done it by being "nice" to the WMD agencies! Where is Rick? He needs to tell these guys himself....Rick?!?

I also feel the agencies have too much power.
Down here (Naples) the main issue is the restoration plan in the south blocks. SFWM would like to just give up 600 acres right there and be done with it. They cannot. If they did they would have to stop the current project (right or wrong) and do another bugs and bunny count. Lake Trafford is the best they can offer and it will not be ready for at least one more year. There are many issues I would not post because I fell it would only hurt efforts to keep pubilc lands open.

 It’s a big bad onion and the more you dig in the more it stings.

[viper]

Do you think the ONF (USFS) is any different. The more I dig into this the more it stings. Someone told me that it is not what the (USFS ONF) wants, it is that they have to do it. Meaning, they don't want the trail system, they have to do it, manadory by washington. If they could close it down, I really believe they would.

Look at the facts - the black bear corridor, couldn't that be a way to close the trails and the ONF USFS washes their hands, we didn't close it. Think about this Rick Lint, and 2 other USFS officals are on the board, along with 2 environmentalists, and Office of Greenways and Trails, that should tell you something right there.

In the preliminary to the state they used a term called "viewshed" which means -
A viewshed is an area of land, water, and other environmental elements that is visible from a fixed vantage point. The term is used widely in such areas as urban planning, archaeology, and military science. In urban planning, for example, viewsheds tend to be areas of particular scenic or historic value that are deemed worthy of preservation against development or other change. The preservation of viewsheds is a goal in the designation of open space areas, green belts, and community separators.

Meaning of Open Space native lands including wilderness, undeveloped parkland and relatively undisturbed natural environment.

None of this points to OHV Trails. I have taken a map of the ONF and calculated 5 mile viewshed, from the scenic byways, that incorporates all the ONF.

Trail maintance - barely being done, if at all. I have been on the trails and in places there are trees down, puddles where people have gone around them, again off the trails. Whoops no matter where you go. But yet quote from the ONFA the ONF is a world class trail system. Something like that was said.

The ONFA is partners with the ONF, to provide substainable recreation for future generations, and to work with the forest system to help them with their goals. Can someone tell what is substainable recreation. Does that include OHV's nothing is mentioned about OHV's anywhere in the ONFA. On this site or the website.

I have looked at the facts, and everything including the ONFA points to not having OHV trails. The facts that I have stated and more.

I could go on but I think I have made my point.

[Ida_Mann]

  Hey Id@, since you are an ONFA Board member, can you tell us who the other Board members are?

I don't know everyone by name because I have been able to make it to only one meeting so far, I'm sure Terry can give you a list from the minutes.

Id@

[lisa]

  Id@, you don't know whom you are working with? Okay, I will take that at face value.

[Ida_Mann]

  Id@, you don't know whom you are working with? Okay, I will take that at face value.

I didn't say that, I know everyone's face, but not names, I'm horrible at names.  I also know everyone's email address, but don't feel it appropriate to give out those without consent.

Id@

[lisa]

   Thanks again Ida_man. I would not ask for email addresses though. If I know whom a person is, I can find out enough contact information to get that on my own.

[lisa]

  Okay folks, this is getting way out of hand. I am now being accused on other threads of trying to destroy the ONFA. That is not true. My first posts about ONFA and the Scenic Byway were talking about how the Forestry wants ONFA to be a partner with them in the Byway. The fact that ONFA is only one of a very select few groups that are named specifically in the Scenic Byway Corridor Management Plan(CMP) (and the fact that the Corridor Advocacy Group [CAG] resisted very strongly adding Fl4WDA in the same context) as an example group of whom should partner with the Corridor, should tell any reasonable person that something smells fishy. 

   Then, when I said that Mr. Thompson needs to attend the Dec. 7th meeting of the Scenic Byway to make sure the CAG knows "officially" that ONFA does not want to partner with the Scenic Byway and should have such suggestions taken out of the the CMP, neither he, nor a representative of the ONFA showed up. When I insisted that this be looked into just days after the meeting, still nothing was said.

   Ida_Man finally decided to do what the President should have done, and that was take a poll to the ONFA to see if the rest of the board wanted to "officially" be part of the Byway many weeks after I brought the subject up. Now, there are two things wrong with that first sentence of this paragraph. The first is we were told ONFA does not have anything to do with the Byway; what is wrong with that is that Mr. Thompson does not have the authority to speak for the organization without the majority consent of the Board. Two, the poll wasn't set till only 5-days before Christmas; again, many weeks after the ONFA president knew something should have been done.

    Now, if Mr. Thompson is very new to all this and is not undestanding how things work, I will cut him a lot more slack than I have been. It is tough to step-up-to-the-plate and have people come down on you for things you trully didn't know. However, if he does know, he should be held more accountable. I am begining to believe Mr. Thompson doesn't understand how this stuff works and with that understanding and belief will apologize to him. All my words have been geared at someone who knows how these meetings go, knows what a president can and should say in public, and understands the true agenda of the folks he is working with.

    I believe Mr. Thompson is in for a rude awakening though. The folks he is working with, Forestry and Linda Duever, know exactly how to work things out. ONFA is not a government-run entity yet, although accepting any start-up grant monies from a Federal agency ties them into such an agency closer than being just a "partner". However, when the President or others must turn to the Forestry or anyone else for "help" in running their group, that opens that organization up to Federal influence and manipulation. ONFA needs to be run without the assistance of the Forestry or any other outside organization.

    If ya'll want to be a group that works to keep motorized public access open, I suggest you take a second and third look at the things Linda Duever suggests. Her agenda is to see The Wildlands Project (TWP) put into effect in the Ocala National Forest. I will not bore ya'll with any more proof of what TWP is really about, but will be glad to send links to anyone who asks and will be happy to discuss this issue IRL by phone or meeting.

    I have seen the suggestions Mrs. Duever has made in the CAG. I have researched some of the "catch phrases" she and Mr. Lint have suggested in the CMP. I will be making written suggestions that these statements be removed due to the legal issues these phrases hold motorized trails to, and believe me, they are not in our favor.

    Do I go overboard? Yep, I will readily and publically admit that and apologize for it. This is a long apology to Mr. Thompson for slights both intended and otherwise because of his lack of understanding on the environmental front. I too am still learning. I have no wish to attack any new person who is really trying to learn. I do not have patience for someone who should know better whether I or someone else warns them of the people they are working with and what they really stand for though.

    I will give it time, ya'll will see what I am saying about certain folks both on the ONFA board and in Forestry. Hopefully some people are taking me seriously, asking serious questions and will make sure those people are watched closely. Only then will we be able to keep trails open and garner respect for your chosen sport.

   Thank you.

[lisa]

  Id@_Man, how is your poll on the ONFA and staying in the Byway Corridor Management Plan (CMP) coming? The general meeting is tomorrow. Are ya'll going to have a rep there to get ONFA out of the CMP, or are ya'll going to stay in the Byway?


   

[GrizzlyBear]

lisa,

refer to my post of Dec 28th, 2006 at 9:41am.  That is the result of the Board being polled.

Terry

[lisa]

 Thank you Terry. So, you are taking a non-stance on the issue?

[lisa]

  Okay folks, I have been wanting Terry to take a stand. I feel he has. While he says he personally doesn't like the Byway, he has no problem with the ONFA, a group he started and is president of, being connected with it.

   Now, not to pick at Ida_man, but Nate, how do you feel about ONFA being part of the Byway? Do you really feel that with ONFA mentioned as a group to be potentially partnered with the Byway and not Fl4WDA that ONFA won't be pressured to become a partner with the Byway? (remember, the Corridor Advocacy Group and more importantly Linda Duever of the ONFA board, didn't want Fl4WDA mentioned as a potential parterner or potential group to be associated with the Byway) There could be a confict-of-interest there....

   It is interesting that Terry doesn't like the Byway, and neither does Ida_Man, yet the ONFA has decided to keep their name in the Corridor Management Plan (CMP). So, who is really running ONFA? There are two against the Byway, unless Mr. Thompson changed his mind, and one for it for sure. Doesn't the other person who is an avid OHVer on the BoD stand against the Byway personally too?

  Terry would never let someone like Linda Duever persuade him that the Corridor Management Entity (CME) won't work to close OHV trails; especially since he knew Linda Duever was technical advisor to the Out of Control article right? Right...... This doesn't make sense Mr. Thompson. Why would you personally be against something (the Byway) then let a group you not only started, but are president of (ONFA) stay connected with that very thing you are personally against (the Byway)? 

   When ONFA becomes a partner with the Byway, Ida_Man, is that when you will pull out? You have to look at this long and hard Ida_Man. Do you really want to be associated with what is going on? Don't fixate on being pissed at me, open your mind and think about this....You obviously know a little about what Byways can do (I have given you the links to follow) to businesses and private citizens and their rights. Do you really think they will not touch the trails? Why would they want to take away private citizen's rights, tell businesses how they can advertise and what their property and buildings look like, curb development, force counties to abide by the CME's CMP, and then not stop the "carnage" of the Forest by folks they feel are just as bad, if not worse, than developers? (Keep in mind the Forest is the reason the Byway is being put in place.)

  Just think about it.....

   ar963, what I am telling you is no conspiracy theory. I have given you proof of what Mr. Lint and Ms. Duever are up to. Theories don't have facts to back them up, that is why they are theories. (Def. #7 of dictionary.com's definition of theory= conjecture or guess.)

   You are right, we have to stand together, but there is another saying; with friends like (insert name here...) who needs enemies? (I know, I know, some of you inserted my name. )

  I have given facts of what Mr. Lint has done in the past. Given you facts of how Byways were used as tools to close access in other states, and facts of Ms. Duever's position on ORV/OHVs. I have given facts of what Byways have been used to do, people you can contact yourself to talk to if you doubt what they said to me. I will be happy to supply email addresses to those interested and perhaps phone numbers if the people give their permission for me to hand out, although once you contact them  by email, you can get their phone numbers yourself.

  ar963, I don't want anyone to take what I say as fact. I encourage everyone to find out the answers on their own. I just help you by doing the research and supplying the links. Read, find out for yourself.

   As far as keeping your enemies closer, if I did that, I would never talk to my friends. I would not want my enemies closer than my friends. My friends know my weaknesses, my hopes, my dreams. I don't want my enemies to know those things.....that doesn't seem logical does it?

[ar963]

I do not usually post, but do visit the forums daily.  I am so tired of reading all this conspiracy theory that I feel I need to say my piece.  First of all I think it is great to have Linda on the ONFA board.  Have you ever heard the saying "keep your friends close but your ..........closer".  Second, the Forest Service will do with the forest as they please, enjoy it while you can.  There are many examples where the Feds have closed down areas (ex. Big Cypress & Dry Tortugas) even after lengthy public comment periods.  The truth is that us 4wheelers aren't viewed very positively by most people making us very easy targets.  I am not trying to be negative just stating my opinion.

Dedicated people working together are the only way we will preserve riding areas.

[Ida_Mann]

  Okay folks, I have been wanting Terry to take a stand. I feel he has. While on one hand, he says he doesn't like the Byway, he has no problem with the ONFA being connected with it.

   Now, not to pick at Ida_man, how do you feel about ONFA being part of the Byway? Do you really feel that with ONFA mentioned as a group to be potentially partnered with the Byway and not Fl4WDA (remember, the Corridor Advocacy Group and more importantly Linda Duever of the ONFA board, didn't want Fl4WDA mentioned as a potential parterner or group to be associated with the Byway) are you going to stay on the Board? That would be supporting the Byway. What side are you on Ida?

   It is interesting that Terry doesn't like the Byway, and neither does Ida_Man, yet the ONFA has decided to keep their name in the Corridor Management Plan (CMP). So, who is really running ONFA? I have told you that Linda Duever is totally against OHVs, and is on both the ONFA board, and the CAG for the Byway....so it is intersting that there are two folks on here that are also on the BoD of the ONFA against the Byway, and one that is positively for it, yet the ONFA is going to stay part of the CMP. I am sure Terry is not listening to Linda Duever, aren't you? NOT!!! This doesn't make sense. Why would you personally be against something, then let a group you not only started, but are president of, stay connected with that? 

   Again, not to pick on Ida_man, but you are as much to blame staying in ONFA if you allow ONFA to be part of the Byway. When ONFA becomes a partner with the Byway, is that when you will pull out? You have to look at this long and hard Ida_Man. Do you really want to be associated with what is going on? Don't fixate on being pissed at me, open your mind and think about this....You obviously know a little about what Byways can do (I have given you the links to follow) to businesses and private citizens and their rights. Do you really think they will not touch the trails? Why would they want to take away private citizen's rights, tell businesses how they can advertise and what their property and buildings look like, curb development and then not stop the "carnage" of the Forest by folks they feel are just as bad, if not worse, than developers? (Keep in mind the Forest is the reason the Byway is being put in place.)

  Just think about it.....

what do I think? I think that after the last few days of dealing with my ex-wife that I need not respond to you before I end up having to ban myself from the forums for saying something that little kids should not read.

but who cares, I'll go for it.

I don't know what the law says has to be revealed about board meetings of non-profit organizations, so I will keep quiet of what was said/done in the meetings unless Terry decides it is to be public knowledge.  I also want my fellow board members to know that they need not "watch their tongues" when around me because I would rather have a free and open discussion while there so we can all throw off the bravado and puffed-up feathers and speak as we wish to to get things done.  There was a frank discussion of your rantings/points at the last meeting that was brought up by me because I thought you had some valid concerns.

I'll tell you that in the eyes of many, you are hurting your cause more than you are helping it.  I hate to sound like a politician here but I will for the next sentence or so.  You seem to be very enthusiastic regarding your cause, but I feel you are going about it the wrong way,,,,let me explain.  When something is wrong, or someone is being wronged,,,the first thing I want to do is shout it from the nearest rooftop and tell anyone around me what is happening and how we fix it, if someone disagrees with me I want to step over them to get to someone who will. 

Sadly, this doesn't work to get the majority of people on my side, it only tend to alienate the very people who could help me most of the times,,,,,this is what you are doing.  I'm not saying,,,,wash my hands and I'll wash yours, but there are other ways of going about these things rather than throwing insults then only half-apologizing for them,,,,,ask how you can work with the organization to try to point them in the direction you feel they should go.

ONFA is not the enemy, but you are acting like they are already.

I think I'll stop there and probably just stay away from the net for a couple days till I get things sorted out.

Id@

[lisa]

  As I said Nate, I am not picking on you. I don't care what the Board said, I asked how you feel. I know that what you said here is repeated to those I am working against. The "funny" thing is, they love the fact that ya'll will let your feelings about me cloud your judgement.

   Many folks like you are saying the same thing Nate, so what do you recommend I do? Keep my information to myself? I brought information out to ya'll at first, without the sarcastic remarks, but ya'll took that as "attacking" Mr. Lint.

   I bring facts, logical thought processes to bear, and  ya'll call that "attacking". Stop, think, take a look at what I said. You didn't read my post. You thought I was asking you to tell us what was said in a BoD meeting. I never asked that, only your thoughts on it. It seems that both you and Mr. Thompson allowed the two folks I have been warning you about, Linda Duever and Mr. Lint, persuade you that I am the enemy. That and your belief that I want to see ONFA dissolve. I want neither.

    I have apologized before, did you see that? Did you acknowledge that? You or anyone else? Nope. You didn't want that apology. I kept to what I said when I apologized, till I saw Mr. Thompson was trying to mislead folks in another thread. I have shown how his misdirection over a simple, innocent question and misleading statements about his true association with Mr. Lint should be a wake-up call to folks when asking him more serious questions.

   I have not "attacked" you either in this post or the previous one either Mr. Basset (hope I spelled that right.) I haven't asked you to reveal what was said in what should have been a public meeting. I know the ONFA BoD would not want to get out what some of them trully feel, but I tell you anyway. I know ONFA is hiding  how close they are really working with the Forestry, but I am not fooled. I would not put you, in the position of revealing to us what really goes on in the meetings. I go to the CAG meetings. I read Ms. Duever's site. I know what she is about, and if she is going to these meetings, I know pretty much what she says and how nice it sounds.

   I have to laugh too, the folks who are telling you I am hurting what you are doing, are the very folks I am warning you about! Every time someone says I am hurting the cause, it is the very people I warn them about that convince them of that!  The fact that you and others listen to them instead of what I am telling you is both hilarious and a tragedy for the cause. By the time you realize you it, you have lost everything!

  Here is a great quote:
  "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1904

[Ida_Mann]

I don't care how much you try to "apologize" when you keep going on with the same behavior that you are apologizing for, the apology means nothing.

People who are truely apologetic about anything will show it, not just say the words.

"be good and you will be lonesome, be lonesome and you will be free, that's what living is to me."

Jimmy Buffett

a little quote somewhat borrowed from Sam Clemens.

Id@

[lisa]

  Don't like Jimmy Buffet, to much a greenie for me. Depends on what Samuel Clemens meant by "be good" doesn't it? Be good could mean doing what you feel is right, be good could mean not bucking the flow, be good could mean standing strong against opposition, as in the quote I put up. Interesting, I will look up the context of that quote, thanks Ida.

   As I said too, I did mean my apology, did any of you "accept it" after it was made in the time before I got pissed at someone's deliberate misdirection? Nope. Sorry Ida, you had no intention of accepting my apology, again, just be honest. I admire that more than the "white lies" than anything else.

  Hey, am I helping you vent? You can vent on me, I don't mind, and "yelling" at me is much more harmless than getting worked up at your ex. You can turn me off...

[lisa]

  Here is the whole quote by Mark Twain:

  Be good and you will be lonesome.
- Following the Equator

  That quote is only a little part of that line. Interesting...

[stacktester]

This chic is wacko man. I won't be reading her crap anymore.