Byway meeting/ONFA

[lisa]

  Hi all, just an update.

  The Byway meeting for Jan. is scheduled for the 11th at the Pioneer Settlement, if todays storms didn't destroy it.....

  The public meetings are scheduled for Jan. 18th at Silver Springs. The new url for the Byway is: Scenic Byway

  Since I missed Dec. meeting, I will be reading the minutes, but I do know that ONFA wasn't there to deny their involvement with the Scenic Byway. Now, this wouldn't be an issue, if the president of ONFA wasn't proclaiming that they were not going to be involved with the Byway publically. I think the good folks here deserve a response to this issue and have the right to know if this is going to be taken care of at the Jan. meeting, or if the president spoke out-of-turn.

  This issue has been either ignored or dodged by said president. Since the president was very adamant about not being involved with the Byway, it shouldn't be such a problem to see this resolved. I hope he will respond to my query here and be willing to share with us exactly what is going on with this issue.

  Thank you.

[Ida_Mann]

less than 5 days ago I requested that the board members of ONFA be polled as to our official position regarding the byway, these 5 days have been covering the last few days before Christmas when everyone has things to do.

I have given my answer to the board president already, but I'm not sure everyone has had the chance to respond yet.

None of the board members are being paid anything for their time/effort being put into the organization(this would include my 4.5 hours of driving to and from a board meeting).

Short story even shorter,,,give us time to come up with an answer from everyone.

Id@

[viper]

good answer

[lisa]

  I thank you for the response. It is sad that this wasn't covered earlier in the month when I posted that the president attend the Dec. 7th meeting to state the official position of ONFA.

  I know this sounds snippy, but come on guys...it shouldn't take a post like this to get something going if ya'll are on the side of ATVs.....I know my post was seen since there was a response by the president of ONFA on a different part of the same post.

   Since the poll was put out before the end of Dec. I am sure that ONFA will be able to be represented at the Jan. 11th meeting, right?

  Just FYI, again if the Board is serious about being there for the ATV crowd, it is vitally important to make sure the Byway folks know where you stand, before they finalize the Corridor Management Plan in preperation for submission.

[GrizzlyBear]

Lisa,

I know that you feel that it very important, in your mind, that ONFA takes a position on the Black Bear Byway.  I have reviewed the sr40.com website and their documents and have discussed this group with our Board.  The mention of ONFA by this group has to do with ONFA being a resource that possibly could help them in the future.  It is nice that some other organization realizes that we are also involved in the forest.  We are however, a new organization, and at the present time have our hands quite full trying to get the Trail Ranger program and the education program to certify under 16 riders going.  All they seem to have asked of our group is that we be mutually supportive of programs of common interest.  I see  nothing wrong with this. 

While you believe we need to take a stand, I disagree.  I am continually informed of the actions of their organization, and do not feel that what they are attempting to do will endanger the trail system.

[viper]

Blinded by the light....

[lisa]

Lisa,

I know that you feel that it very important, in your mind, that ONFA takes a position on the Black Bear Byway.  I have reviewed the sr40.com website and their documents and have discussed this group with our Board.  The mention of ONFA by this group has to do with ONFA being a resource that possibly could help them in the future.  It is nice that some other organization realizes that we are also involved in the forest.  We are however, a new organization, and at the present time have our hands quite full trying to get the Trail Ranger program and the education program to certify under 16 riders going.  All they seem to have asked of our group is that we be mutually supportive of programs of common interest.  I see  nothing wrong with this. 

While you believe we need to take a stand, I disagree.  I am continually informed of the actions of their organization, and do not feel that what they are attempting to do will endanger the trail system.

Bad2thebone,

I do not see how you can speak of the Black Bear Corridor and say that ONFA is part of it.  I went to one meeting, and rapidly decided I wanted nothing to do with it,  I have not been back, and have no itention of backing their project.

  Now, this is you, as president, taking a stand. Technically, if you want to squirm out of it, you can say you were speaking of yourself staying out of it; however, you started the second quote by saying; "I do not see how you can speak of the Black Bear Corridor and say that ONFA is part of it."

   Now you are speaking like a politician, side-stepping the issue. ONFA is mentioned as a partner in this, while I tried to get them to include Fl4WDA in mentioning partners too. Interesting that they declined to add Fl4WDA, yet would include ONFA.....their intent is for you to be more than just a mere mention, but to actually be part of it.

  You as president will be part of this byway through ONFA. Since you have taken such a hard stand against it publically, what will you do when ONFA is a part of the byway???

[lisa]

  Oh, and if ONFA has taken grant monies from the Forestry Service, ONFA is no longer an entity onto itself, but a branch of Forestry. That will confirm what I have been saying, that ONFA will be a partner in this corridor; not just a mention.

[lisa]

   I realize I am being tough on Grizz. I am playing against the top notch folks in this state on this byway issue. It isn't going to get won coddling someone who may or may not be on my side. From what Grizz says, he doesn't like the byway, but he needs to understand, as do many of you, that those who are pushing for this byway are pushing the buttons behind-the-scenes in ONFA as well.

   They do not have yours or my, best interests at heart. The sooner Grizz, and others, realize that, the better! Grizz, I know I am being tougher on you than I would had this been the first year that they had been working on this byway. This byway is very, very close to becoming national, within the year 2007! Yes, that is how close it is! It is not the time to play nicey, nicey or hold someone's hand as they learn the true agenda of people they think are on their side.

  Others have been there, they have fought for years, been stabbed in the back time, and time again; only to find that now it is too late to get back to what they had. I will not let that happen. I will go down swinging for all I am worth; and hopefully take some of the enemy down with me.

  Stay strong Grizz. I don't know you, but I sure hope you are on our side. When you decide what side you are on, I will be there, either for you (as strong as I am against my enemy) or against you. I hope you are on my side. 

[johnb]

Hi Everyone:

I am not really new to the forum, but new to replying on here. I am not a resident of Florida, but do have parents and friends in Ocala, and ride the Ocala National Forest maybe twice a year, when vacation time allows it.

I have been following the discussion and it sounds like the ONFA doesn't want to be part of this so called Black Bear Corridor, (wildlaw project), but yet taken from ONFA website:

         The Ocala National Forest Association is a non-profit corporation committed to     the success of the Ocala National Forest as it works to fulfill its mission. The Association will complement and add to the skills and resources of the Forest, involve other partners - individuals, community groups, corporations, foundations, other government agencies, and non-profits - and foster citizen involvement in Forest planning and decision making.

By the above statement if the ONFA is committed to the success of the Ocala National Forest and will involve partners etc.. and forster citizen involvement in Forest Planning and decision making, I have to ask isn't that the Black Bear Corridor. Wouldn't you want to be part of this group (Other government agencies), this is going to involve Forest Planning and decision making. Looking at the documentation and looking at the map, it is going through the middle of the forest. But yet you don't want to take part in it, then your mission statement is not true.

Your three primary goals:

 Attract new resources of all kinds to the Forest. (Black Bear Corridor) Isn't that a new resource.

Encourage and promote broad based investment in the Forest as a way of supporting local community development and obtaining the involvement of members of these communities to determine their own destinies. Won't the black bear corridor support local community development? Isn't this a way to bring business and individuals together to enhance the community and let them know what the forest is all about?

I have read some of the documentation on this subject matter, and have from personal experiences seen what has happened to trails in other states, it is not a good site.

No where on the front page of the website do you state anything about OHV trails, or any OHV at all.

The entire program is made up of volunteers whose only purpose is to preserve the forest for the enjoyment of visitors who come to visit its unique environment. Your only purpose is to preseve the forest, that sounds like your against OHV's. Is that why the ONFA doesn't want to get involved.

This is a confusing issue for sure, but what seems to be more confusing is the above statements about the ONFA.

[lisa]

  You are right johnb; why wouldn't the ONFA want to be a part of this? I am confused about Grizz, he says he is for keeping trails open, yet refuses to acknowledge Mr. Lint's past insisting that now Mr. Lint has become a compeletly different man than the one who closed things down in Louisiana.

  Here is some more information on Scenic Byways for those who think they sound great! Munso Tatum of the CAG has been asking me to provide real folks who have been affected by Scenic Byways, this is as good a place as any to start bringing my information out! Especially since I know the Byway folks are either watching themselves, or have folks watching for them (paid or niave saps.)

 Scenic Byways Innocent Sounding Land Management

  The above was written by a reporter who found out exactly what Scenic Byways are all about. The folks who live in the Adirondacks have been fighting the byway since it was put in.

  This woman Joyce Morrison has been working with me to help me learn how to stop the byway. She worked with folks in her county to successfully dedesignate a Scenic Byway in her county.

  There are several articles on this site that show you how bad Scenic Byways are for property owners and those who love to enjoy the forests and parks [Property Rights Foundation of America

  The last site I gave you has a few articles on how the Scenic Byway was used to close down areas of the Adirondacks to outdoors lovers, including motorized access users, hikers, birdwatchers, etc.

   Now, I have been told, officially by the consultant for the byway, that the biggest reason to have a Scenic Byway was for grant monies. Now, just what projects do they need grant monies for? They haven't said yet. Why don't you come to the public meeting and ask them? I would love to hear what they say about their little projects in public. I do know that Mrs. Duever (a CAG member who has been promoting The Wildlands Project ) has suggested strongly that we have "eco-passages" across sr40 so that plants, amphibians and reptiles can cross sr40 without fear of getting run over by vehicles.

   That kind of radicalism sure sounds like someone we want helping plan our trails, right? Oh, and she was also technical advisor on; "Out of Control" an article written by the Defenders of Wildlife to convince folks that you, the ATVers are destroying the forest and should be banned.

   Back to the Corridor. Just look closer to home, the Tamiami Trail. County Commissioners have been overlooked in deciding what things can/should be done in their county. The NPS is using the corridor as an excuse to do radical things to the corridor; such as expanding the "viewshed" and destroying habitat for deer and other hunted animals effectively closing hunting areas.

  Just drive the Tamiami Trail and see how many OHV/ORV trails you see from the roadway. Trails cutting through the NPS or the ONF aren't "scenic". Just remember, the classification of this Byway is to be "scenic" not recreational, so what do you think their main focus is going to be?

  The CME has used the corridor to build many "panther underpasses" at a cost of $4 million each. What does that mean for ONF? Well, the animal underpasses don't work unless you fence them off for many miles on each side....could that mean fencing off the ONF? Think of the amount of work and the construction along sr40 and how that will effect recreation in at least Big Scrub if you get the feds building animal underpasses. Oh, and ONFA suggested that we use the underpasses for OHVs too; do you really think the enviros are going to allow that? Be realistic please.....they aren't going to allow any human activity around any underpass let alone allow us to use them.

   Yes, the Byway uses many words to "Sound Innocent" as the Susan Allen suggests. (BTW, I have permission from each of the groups and people to use quotes from them and to post links to their site.) It is just another way to grab lands for The Wildlands Project and for the Feds to get more control over roads and lands they can't otherwise touch.

[lisa]

  Here is a direct article written by Carol Lagrasse off of the PRFAInc. site. Now, if folks are having trouble with this stuff in other states, do you really think it is going to just go away in ours?

  ....Access Closed

[johnb]

I have done some research and I have pulled up the last meeting minutes, notice the USFS people in attendance, people on the board.

Minutes Florida Black Bear Scenic Byway CAG Meeting
10:00 AM, December 7th, 2006
Marion County Library, Ocala, Florida

In attendance: Rick Lint, Carl Petrick, Monso Tatum, Glenn Burns, Cathy Lowenstein, Laureen Kornel, Garry Balogh, Joan Carter, Jessi Smith, Guy Marwick, August Mazyck, Sandra Friend, Cindy Marihugh, Criss Specht, Lucy Tobias

1.  Introductions   Rick Lint introduced Carl Petrick, Ecosystems Staff Officer representing USFS Forest Supervisor. All others present introduced themselves.

Above taken directly from the December meeting.

Below taken from Scenic byways innocent sounding land management.

These byways require something called a “Corridor Management Plan.” The federal ISTEA law set up a 17-member “Scenic Byway Advisory Committee” to “develop standards for design review” in these corridor plans. This Advisory Committee consists of federal agencies, including the National Park Service and U.S. Forest Service, plus appointees from various interests, including environmental, recreational and historic organizations. The only overt commercial interest represented is the “outdoor advertising industry.” I have the handbooks produced for the “Corridor Management Planning” purposes, telling how to organize Byway advocates and how to keep control of the public information process. Listed as contributors to these manuals are organizations like Scenic America and National Trust for Historic Preservation.

In the preliminary thesis to the state CAG used the term "viewshed" , viewshed can mean anything within 5 miles or greater on either side of the corridor will be protected.

I think Mr. Thompson you missed the point.

[lisa]

 Right on johnb!

[ladyinpink]

Hey ya'll this lady is definately confused -- by ya'll ONFA not taking a stand, ya'll ONFA is saying it will not protect the trails?? Then that leaves this lady to believe ya'll ONFA doesn't care about the trails?? What does ya'll care about.

[Ida_Mann]

My main worry in regards to the byway is private property rights.  I worry that once they have their foot in the door and have the backing of an organization like the USFS that they will use it to take over land that was formally privately owned or tell the property owners around the area what they can/can't do with their own property.

I do see a lot of good that they "plan" to do, but some things in their goals scare me.

Id@

[johnb]

Your right

[IT200]

I have to take time to say a little bit about this subject. First let me start off by saying that I was one of the first OHV volunteers in the ONF, right by my side through all the training was Grizzlybear. I have known this man for some time know. Grizzlybear has given more of his personal time to this sport than any of you can imagine. His goal is to keep as many trails open as possible. As for the grant money, mainly it is to be used to educate riders. The grant does not come from the forest service but from the T.Mark Schmidt fund. Lisa until you meet this man and talk to him face to face and get all your facts in line, stop making personal attacks on him. The attacks make you look stupid and bring down the sport as a whole.

[viper]

Could that be that you might know this man --- I have been friends with him for sometime (friends), best pals, let's defend him. Usually one needs to be defended if they are in war, or hiding something, and many other numerous reasons.

[Mars]

Could that be that you might know this man --- I have been friends with him for sometime (friends), best pals, let's defend him. Usually one needs to be defended if they are in war, or hiding something, and many other numerous reasons.

Viper,That's just wrong.

I work for Collier County and some have seem me represent our sport locally.
That being said: You can't bully Forestry, WMA, or SFWMA. WE (atv owners) need to work with them and remind them of our issues. I might be wrong but this is what I believe ONFA is trying to do. Regardless of your opinion of ONFA they are by no means against you.
 
Lisa, The byway thing worries me too. The government and other large interest groups have many lawyers helping them write document that are hard to decipher and always leave them “a way out”.
All who can need to attend the Jan. meeting. I will try to be there.



 

[viper]

Mars - where has working with them got you. Do you have a place to ride down there? It is my understanding from previous threads there is going to be a huge rally down there, would you call that working with them?

No one has said the ONFA is against anyone. It is obvious that everyone thinks the ONFA and grizzly needs to be defended, no one has accused them of anything. I see this as information to keep the public informed.

It won't make a difference when the ONF gets closed, due to the corridor.

[lisa]

  My attempts to get Grizz and others to see that they will not be able to keep ONFA from being a partner in the corridor, and by proxy themselves a partner to it is being taken as attacks. That is interesting. I have used Grizz's own statements to show where he has said he doesn't want to be a part of this corridor, and told him that ONFA will be.

  I have apologized once for being strong, I will only apologize once. Grizz may be a "nice guy" however, I am at odds with several folks I know as "nice folks". My husband was one of them. He lives with me, and because I am able to bring my point-of-view to each and every discussion we have about this very topic, he has come to understand (although he personally doesn't like it) that my tactics are the only options we have now. The agencies, environmental groups, etc. have left us no choice.

  Mars, I suggest you talk with the Collier County Commissioners and see where working "with" SFWMD and WMA has gotten them; right into the battle they are having down there right now. W;/hy? Because these agencies do not play by the rules. They play by their own agenda and the devil-may-care where the chips fall. That is why you don't have anywhere to ride down there. 

  I know Rick Varela has been working hard to get trails opened back up down there. He has come closer than anyone else has and he has not done it by being "nice" to the WMD agencies! Where is Rick? He needs to tell these guys himself....Rick?!?

[lisa]

Now, anyone showing up at the public meeting, will learn how the Florida Growth Management Act of 1985 (FGMA) will force the County Commissioners, through their own Comprehensive Growth Plan (CGP) to abide by the Comprehensive Management Plan (CMP).

  I asked, specifically, if the FGMA would force the couties, at least as far as the corridor was concerned, to accept the laws of other counties. I also put the question into context by reading the paragraph from the State Manual on Scenic Highways. The consultant, Mr. Glen Burns was the only one to answer me at first, and  he told me that the FGMA is there to "make" the counties talk with each other; he added that they don't do that very well.

  Not happy with this answer, and knowing there was much more to it than that, I looked up the FGMA myself and found the answer to my questions. Folks, make no mistake, this Act does much more than require the counties to "talk" to each other. There is mention of sactions, monies that can be withheld from the counties for road and county projects, etc. This Act does much more than I was lead to believe.
 
   I will be bringing this information to the public meeting. I hope to see some of you there.

[stacktester]

Lord help us all. This is getting to be too much. I need to go to law school to understand you Lisa. I'm so sick of this crap that I'm ready to sell my atv's and buy a pair of binoculars and hiking boots to see the forest. This is getting rather sickening. Get a damned meeting for pete's sake and hash this out.

[lisa]

  Play Vonage theme song here:

  Um stactester, there is a meeting planned....it will be January 18th in Silver Springs. I would give you the link, but you don't seem like you are eager to save your ATV trails......or your rights....