Damage Report- Ocala National Forest Big Scrub Area

[GrizzlyBear]

Hoefully this link will take you to the most damaging report I have ever seem regarding ATV's.  And sad to say, it is true.

http://www.wildlaw.org/docs/OHV_Report_Final.pdf.

This report will do more to shut down the forest then anything else.  It is NOT by the Forest Service, but by an environmental law firm that got the Rodman Pit excluded from Phase I. ONFA is the voice that we have to see that there are riding ares in Big Scrub and you need to join us. Starting next week we will be soliciting for members.  $25 for an individual and $50 for a family.

Read this report and look at the evidence (pictures) that have.  I believe this will shut the Big Scrub are down until we can get Phase II trail system in place.

I know people on this forum may think I speak for the Forest Service, but I am attempting to PARTNER with them to provide US with areas to ride.

[wilburz]

your link is not working for me!

[bigscrub79]

Just go to www.wildlaw.org and click on NEWS then at the top there is a link for ORV in Ocala

[GrizzlyBear]

Thanks

[rednipj]

http://www.wildlaw.org/docs/OHV_Report_Final.pdf

forgot the caps in report and final.

[backinsaddle]

i emailed you the document converted to word...note that pdf documents don't convert all formatting perfectly to word, so although it doesn't look too bad, you may want to edit a bit.

[wilburz]

Read the report. That company that created the report is probably financed by the logging companies. Nothing wrong with cutting large swathes of trees to the ground. plus it looks great! Looking at one large area that has all the trees cut down does not even compare the the tire ruts and unauthorized trails.  I don't have the answer to the problem but the report seemed to be heaping all the problems on OHV's. They failed to mention the damage that logging companies have done to the forest for the last 70 years!

There will be parts of the forests that you cannot drive on but how will disabled people be able to access these areas without a road to drive on?

All in all, I think the trails system that is currently available and the new ones in the works are a great idea. But i do not think it will stop the tresspassing and creation of more trails in restricted areas. Too much land to manage with too few enforcers.         

[ananomaly]

Thanks Grizz... Very interesting read.

[cheropride]

Printing the report to read, but I agree w/the above, oh it's okay to come in and cut down all the trees to make money. 

But like I said, if my slowa$$ computer - that I paid bigtime $ ever decides to print I will read it.  Going to throw this #$#%#%#% computer out the @#$@#$@#$@# window...

[PaulH]

Hopefully this link will take you to the most damaging report I have ever seem regarding ATV's.  And sad to say, it is true.

This makes me sad because if we keep people from enjoying the nature areas we have, our future generations will not have the same respect for them.  I think conservation groups are cutting their own throats by banning people from riding.  They need to work with us, not against us.  The sad reality is, I don't think this will ever happen because of inflated egos and cultural differences.

As an example... I am from Tennessee.  We had a riding area along the river bottoms for years.  They closed it because they said it was damaging the area.  Years later they made mountain bike trails out of it.  They closed it again saying the mountain bikers were too dangerous for the hikers.  Well, it didn't take long for the trails to get completely overgrown and impassable.  Since nobody was using it anymore... they cleared it and built strip malls backing up to the river.

Another example... we had an unofficial riding area just like North Port.  Trucks, 4wheelers, etc.  Of course, we had idiots that would dump trash, stolen cars, shoot, build bon fires, etc.  Well, they closed that area.  Did that stop the idiots?  No.  Instead, they now trespass on private land doing the same crap.

We MUST work together.

[miamigirlrider]

Wow PaulH nicely said....

Another example I used in the OHV Meeting on Friday, just like what we are facing now, when I was around 18 we were used to riding on 8 street and 142 avenue for many years, then they closed it because of wedland but if you drive by it now there is 400k houses in that exact spot....

LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.... $$$$ INFLUENCES ALOT....

[tekhanto]

The report from this firm IS TO make it look bad even if it isn't they want to shut this down
everywhere.  They are getting paid TO SEE THAT IT IS CLOSED.  AS always we are our own worst enemy and give them the bullets to shoot us with  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fastrnrik]

I've had lengthy posts regarding these matters on the ONF threads, so I will not go through the whole deal again. Grizzly Bear obviously has a good relationship with someone at the USFS, and I've been a USFS contractor since 1998. The thing that people need to realize is that the US Forest Service's mission statement is preservation of the forest and it's ecosystem. That's it. Logging, while it looks like an atrocity to the layperson, is actually a helpful tool in managing the forest, after all the majority of the trees being harvested were actually planted for that reason in the first place. The place called the "Old Seed Orchard" was just that, a nursery for baby pine trees. So what looks like destruction to most people, is actually proper forest management, and a renewable crop being harvested. Just remember, it is not anyones "right" to ride ATV's in ONF. Your tax money was spent to preserve the forest itself, not your use of it.

P.S.- Next time you want to be mad about logging, just try wiping your a$$ with a pine cone or your bare hand. LOL.       

[UncleRico]

OBJECTION YOUR HONOR!

This report is invalid. (or at least it should be)

It has no objectivity.  It's littered with conjecture, speculation and meretricious opinions?

If it's not based in objectivity, than it should carry no merit. It should thus be invalid. It's clear that the parties involved have a predetermined conclusion based on inconsistent premises. In fact, I would go as far as saying that the parties involved have conspired to portray ATV-ers in a pejorative light. Yes, a conspiracy against the people by a government backed entity. I rule in favor of the ATVers and here by declare it illegal to ever take public lands away from the general public again! (At least that's how Judge Judy would have ruled)


The forest should remain open until an objective third party entity does the research to determine the actual impact on the forest and it's relative impact on the surrounding environment.

Unfortunately, that won't happen. SHUT IT DOWN and let the government run beuarocracies (damn I slaughtered that spelling) control your land.  After all, public land is suppose to be the land of the people.

So take your "pursuit of hapiness" and fork it over to the goverment. They should just remove that phrasing from the document. It should read, "...life, partial liberty, and the pursuit of paying taxes"

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. Time to trade in the ATV and take up bird watching.
MY FAVORITE PART is where he refers to OHV's riding out of Big Scrub as an unmanageable situation

THIS MAKES ME SO MAD THAT I JUST WANT TO GO OUT AND SMASH SMOKEY THE BEAR UPSIDE THE HEAD WITH A SHOVEL!

Unmanageable situation...brought to you buy the same government monies that call IRAQ a "manageable" situation.

WHERE'S THE CONSISTENCY?

[raptor]

I have to disagree with you, if you go to the library and read about the USFS and why and how it came about, the orginal model for the USFS was a forest for the people, to utilize, and that was in the early 1800's. The moto of the USFS when it began was not to preseve the forest.

The bottom line is greed money... ONF within the next several years is going to clear cut 20% of the forest. The reason why they are clear cutting so much is because of the contract they made with the loggers several years ago, and the USFS is losing money on the contract. Most of the clear cut get sold to the pulp industry.

It sounds like your a contractor and everyone needs to make money to support their lifestyles, I don't disagree with that, but what I do disagree on is that the ONF could use the clear cuts to produce more OHV trails. It would be easy to do once the area is clear cut. Then let the forest grow back around the trail.

Wildlaw is going to rule in the end, and the rangers working at the ONF will probably be happy campers.

I've had lengthy posts regarding these matters on the ONF threads, so I will not go through the whole deal again. Grizzly Bear obviously has a good relationship with someone at the USFS, and I've been a USFS contractor since 1998. The thing that people need to realize is that the US Forest Service's mission statement is preservation of the forest and it's ecosystem. That's it. Logging, while it looks like an atrocity to the layperson, is actually a helpful tool in managing the forest, after all the majority of the trees being harvested were actually planted for that reason in the first place. The place called the "Old Seed Orchard" was just that, a nursery for baby pine trees. So what looks like destruction to most people, is actually proper forest management, and a renewable crop being harvested. Just remember, it is not anyones "right" to ride ATV's in ONF. Your tax money was spent to preserve the forest itself, not your use of it.

P.S.- Next time you want to be mad about logging, just try wiping your a$$ with a pine cone or your bare hand. LOL.      

[logger]

Funny how the ONFA is working with Wildlaw???

[UncleRico]

.
 but what I do disagree on is that the ONF could use the clear cuts to produce more OHV trails. It would be easy to do once the area is clear cut. Then let the forest grow back around the trail.

Wildlaw is going to rule in the end, and the rangers working at the ONF will probably be happy campers.

      

EXACTLY - If you're going to allow the loggers to rape the forest, and clear cut an entire area, why not use that area for OHV trails, riding pits, or some fun obstacles for sport riders.

AND as for WILDLAW...they shouldn't be allowed to rule anything..they're a legal firm.

To tell you the truth, I find their management situation to be unmanageable.

I SWEAR IF I SEE SMOKEY THE BEAR, I'M GONNA TACKLE HIM AND BEAT HIM OVER THE HEAD WITH A SCRUB JAY!

[GrizzlyBear]

The ONFA is NOT working with Wildlaw,  they offered some needed help in doing the IRS 501(c)3 application for free, and I grabbed it.  Somehow I was lucky enough to get on there mailing list and they sent me a copy of the report.  I am not sure if the Forestry Service has it yet, they may get it in the form of a lawsuit, who knows.  ONFA's motto is "Partnering with the USDA Forest Service to provide SUSTAINABLE recreation in the Ocala National Forest"  I posted this link so people could see what we are up against, highly funded, highly organized knowledleable opposition.  We will be at the table when they design the trail system in Phase II.  We want at least as many miles as are in the north, we want communities, businesses connected and we want it to connect with the sysytm in the north. 

[cheropride]

I posted this link so people could see what we are up against, highly funded, highly organized knowledleable opposition.  

You got that right GrizzlyBear!! 

As for the harvesting of trees is a good thing.  Look I am not against that at all, but to say that ATVer's are the ONLY ones causing ALL these problems is just wrong.  Yes, we all need products that trees produce, but have you ever seen how they leave a forest when they are done.  It's not a pretty sight.  Just like the control burns, they say it is necessary, and you know what it most likely is, but then I say to myself, you know what, the forest survived all these 1000's of years w/o us do "control burns", so who is to say that's right too.  My biggest complaint about the whole report and about the whole issue, it always comes down on the OHV/ATV's, well THAT'S JUST WRONG! 

WARNING - Once they get us out, next will be hunters, and the list will go on and on and on.  They are just starting with obvious, but it won't stop there. 

Also the fact that there is more OHV in the forest, is not because of increased sales, it is because THERE IS NO PLACES TO RIDE.  So when the state shuts everything down, well yea, you are going to have a major impact on the only few places left to ride.  So if you ask me, the state has done this to themselves.

Don't even get me started on the Everglades, what about all of the fertilizers and stuff from the farmers.  But no, IT'S THE OHV/ATV - It's all our fault - NOT.....

[logger]

Grizzley:

You should read the full report before you make that statement.

The ONFA is NOT working with Wildlaw,  they offered some needed help in doing the IRS 501(c)3 application for free, and I grabbed it.  Somehow I was lucky enough to get on there mailing list and they sent me a copy of the report.  I am not sure if the Forestry Service has it yet, they may get it in the form of a lawsuit, who knows.  ONFA's motto is "Partnering with the USDA Forest Service to provide SUSTAINABLE recreation in the Ocala National Forest"  I posted this link so people could see what we are up against, highly funded, highly organized knowledleable opposition.  We will be at the table when they design the trail system in Phase II.  We want at least as many miles as are in the north, we want communities, businesses connected and we want it to connect with the sysytm in the north. 

[Anoriginal]

This report, albeit disturbing, is well done, thought out, supported and very convincing. Wild Law is a good firm with attorneys that are devoted to their trade. They have some vehement environmentalists on board with experience connected to what some have termed "militant" environmental groups such as the Sierra Club.

Chest beating, name calling, clean up trail rides, signs, demonstrations and letter writing are not going to help the situation one bit. This is not a fly by night passing matter. These people mean business and have not only the ability, but the means to see things through to the end.

Bottom line is this: All the OHV groups are shattered about and have no continuity. One group blames the other, ATV's point to the Jeepers who point to the Motorcycle folks who point back at the ATV's and so on. Combine that with the infighting amoungst the individual groups and a complete lack of financial organization and it is clear that we can't beat these folks in our current state. Unless we as OHV users unite, organize and fund ourselves immediately, it's already over. The people have been on this for decades, not years, not months, not weeks. If we're going to catch up, we'd better get rolling or sell our OHV's and buy golf clubs.

[Bigscrb15]

This report, albeit disturbing, is well done, thought out, supported and very convincing. Wild Law is a good firm with attorneys that are devoted to their trade. They have some vehement environmentalists on board with experience connected to what some have termed "militant" environmental groups such as the Sierra Club.

Chest beating, name calling, clean up trail rides, eigns, demonstrations and letter writing are not going to help the situation one bit. This is not a fly by night passing matter. These people mean business and have not only the ability, but the means to see things through to the end.

Bottom line is this: All the OHV groups are shattered about and have no continuity. One group blames the other, ATV's point to the Jeepers who point to the Motorcycle folks who point back at the ATV's and so on. Combine that with the infighting amoungst the individual groups and a complete lack of financial organization and it is clear that we can't beat these folks in our current state. Unless we as OHV users unite, organize and fund ourselves immediately, it's already over. The people have been on this for decades, not years, not months, not weeks. If we're going to catch up, we'd better get rolling or sell our OHV's and buy golf clubs.

     Very well said, I couldn't agree more.

[logger]

If ONFA isn't working with wildlaw read page 27 Restoring Habit above the picture, wildlaw is working with ONFA and Our Big Scrub Inc.. It is in black and white...

[tekhanto]

  Golf courses are next on the list, carts tearing up the grass, large metal sticks tearing up the
turf causing run off  etc etc

[Anoriginal]

Look folks, drop the logging issue because, there is no issue. Logging has been shown time and time again to benefit the environment when done in a sustainable manner under strict guidelines.

Again, look how divided we get right off the bat. Hopeless? Lets hope not.

[SomBch]

Ive noticed people getting off point and straying from the real issue, so Ill have to agree with you .

[GrizzlyBear]

If ONFA isn't working with wildlaw read page 27 Restoring Habit above the picture, wildlaw is working with ONFA and Our Big Scrub Inc.. It is in black and white...

This was done entirely without my knowledge.  We have NEVER agreed to do anything for this organization.

[cheropride]

We will be at the table when they design the trail system in Phase II.  We want at least as many miles as are in the north, we want communities, businesses connected and we want it to connect with the sysytm in the north. 

Pg 27 specially states, "Wildlaw is currently working with Save Our Big Scrub, Inc and the new Ocala National Forest Association - an OHV user-group and support organization - to develop a plan for setting up appropriate facilities and training volunteers to do this."

The above does not inply to me that ONFA is working w/Wildlaw, but Wildlaw is specially trying to state that it is try to appease the OHV group, and their comments more than likely directly relate to the Phase II issue. 

It is basically a play on words, that should not be taken out of context.  You know what I mean.  Cause I had previously read the report, and that is actually how I interpretted that sentence.  Wildlaw is trying to say it is making attempt to appease our rights.

[GrizzlyBear]

As I at the present time am the only person authorized to speak for ONFA, I have contacted Wildlaw (only left a message) and I sent them an email demanding a retraction.  To quote someone without their permission is not allowed.  I am very upset that anyone could have interperated it to mean I was working with them.  If they think I am going to organize a group of volunteers to plant trees, they have another think coming.

[GrizzlyBear]

thank you Cheropride, I have to agree with you.

[4fittyr]

since i've been riding big scrub pre 1980 the forest looked like a forest  but the 1994 photos shows trees in the campground and around however back then their weren't too my 4 wheelers just bikes and atc's and no one complained. if the contracts with logger still exist?? and they bucther the land thats ok cause the ol mighty dollar. their gonna close it down to preserve for future delovopers with big$$$$$$$ to buy it up. you mark my words!!!! preserve squat, pictures showed areas of where public citizens had fun with their machines. personally speaking the only wild life i've seen lately is hound dogs with gps collars and # painted on them, not a bird, hawk ,deer, hawg, or gopher ever.so sit down and shut smokey the beaT UP .as for the trees and plants they will grow back someday, but if you cant use the land for anything but foot traffic and soon to band that what good is it.  frustrated to no end  unmanageable goverment.DAM IT THIS IS AMERICA HOME OF THE FREE   NOT ANY MORE HOME OF THE TREE HUGGEN- ANIMAL RIGHT ACTIVAISTS??  ALMOST FORGOT THE METH LAB HOMLESS MAKERS.  THEY'RE OK

[UncleRico]

OK, well this seems to be a passionate issue for most of us posting.  And as with anything, we have different opinions on "logging" and the "truthiness" of the report.

That aside....

We need to come up with a plan. I mean, it would be nice if we came up with a strategy that we could all get behind. That way we can all be on the same page.

I mean, I ride a sport  (450r), and it seems to me that the trail system seems more geared to utes, but I would gladly support other ATVers even if it means NO SPORT RIDING.

So...who's got a plan?

Maybe it would be wise to define what we expect from ONF, so that we can all work together to reach a compromise.

Any suggestions?

I for one would like to see a central area to ride out of, similar to Big Scrub where you could park, camp, maybe some showers, and some security.

It's always sketchy leaving a trailer at a trailhead in the middle of nowhere especially when there's not a crowd around.

[logger]

We will be at the table when they design the trail system in Phase II.  We want at least as many miles as are in the north, we want communities, businesses connected and we want it to connect with the sysytm in the north. 

Pg 27 specially states, "Wildlaw is currently working with Save Our Big Scrub, Inc and the new Ocala National Forest Association - an OHV user-group and support organization - to develop a plan for setting up appropriate facilities and training volunteers to do this."

The above does not inply to me that ONFA is working w/Wildlaw, but Wildlaw is specially trying to state that it is try to appease the OHV group, and their comments more than likely directly relate to the Phase II issue. 

It is basically a play on words, that should not be taken out of context.  You know what I mean.  Cause I had previously read the report, and that is actually how I interpretted that sentence.  Wildlaw is trying to say it is making attempt to appease our rights.

Not a play on words - it states working with Wildlaw.... it is that simple.. But I will be nice and let grizzley have the benefit of the doubt. It all boils down to interperting the words, and how one precives the written word. It is just like freedom of the press.. off the topic.. Sorry

[Sleazy_Rider78]

Anyone that has read a document written by a lawyer knows that the language they use is supposed to be confusing.  I am sure if we were to bring it to their attention, they would have some vague response.

[SomBch]

since i've been riding big scrub pre 1980 the forest looked like a forest  but the 1994 photos shows trees in the campground and around however back then their weren't too my 4 wheelers just bikes and atc's and no one complained. if the contracts with logger still exist?? and they bucther the land thats ok cause the ol mighty dollar. their gonna close it down to preserve for future delovopers with big$$$$$$$ to buy it up. you mark my words!!!! preserve squat, pictures showed areas of where public citizens had fun with their machines. personally speaking the only wild life i've seen lately is hound dogs with gps collars and # painted on them, not a bird, hawk ,deer, hawg, or gopher ever.so sit down and shut smokey the beaT UP .as for the trees and plants they will grow back someday, but if you cant use the land for anything but foot traffic and soon to band that what good is it.  frustrated to no end  unmanageable goverment.DAM IT THIS IS AMERICA HOME OF THE FREE   NOT ANY MORE HOME OF THE TREE HUGGEN- ANIMAL RIGHT ACTIVAISTS??  ALMOST FORGOT THE METH LAB HOMLESS MAKERS.  THEY'RE OK

I think I understand your point but, if there saving the land for future development how could that be misinterpreted as environmentalists trying to kill your sport? I think we all need to have a common understanding of who or what is effecting the future of our trails and riding areas. On the contrary do I believe its the environmentalists, no I believe we should take issue with those that we elect to maintain the lifestyles to which we have become accustom to.(to steal a term from divorce court) In the end just as was mentioned above , these lands end up being developed. We are run out and ther excuse is" its environmentally sensitive" well thats what they said about the Okeechobee woods and now look there are houses from Jog Rd all the way to 441, not to mention that a certain source has told me that the entire catchment area has sewer run thru out , now you tell me does that sound like its gonna stay that way? I think you would be hard pressed to find a enviromentalist that would rather have houses built on  huge properties than having trail riders using it recreationally

[ananomaly]

Anonomoly, I think your right on track. This is very well prepared and documented. I think we should all accept that we do damage to the areas we ride in. I'm Just not so sure I give a rats behind if a red belled long billed horny toed frogs habitat is disrupted when I ride.Do I think the environmentalists are out of control? Yep, but look at their powerhouse. Grizz seems to be on the right track trying to be part of the process to have a voice.

[Anoriginal]

"Anonomoly"... that's cute.

[Loven It]

Would anyone be interested in ATVFlorida holding a meeting someplace neutral that we can all discuss this openly together and set up a plan! Figure out who wants to go and what county everyone lives in that wants to go and see what the best general location would be. We all seem to have the same want...legal riding areas and to keep more from being shut down!

I say if everyone agrees we hold an ATVFlorida meeting and see how many show. At least that way we know how many on this site are seriuosly wanting to put their money well where their mouths are and get our group organized. Only once we are all organized and can agree on plan of action will anything get done.

There are some members on here that go to extreme lenghts to fight for ALL of us! I feel those folks have their ducks in a row and NEED more support from us. I for one am not rich and am a single mom. Funds are not that easy to come by, but I can spare at least 20-50 bucks next Friday to help get this started. Considering what I spend in coffee every week. I would rather give that money to the members on here that are fighting their asses off for me and my family to have a place to ride.

Lastly I know you guys don't see me at the meetings or posting in more threads related to this, but I do a lot as well. I am constantly reading new literature as I can find it, and emailing as many different people as I can. As someone else suggested to me that we need to help find an area that is suitable for atv's. So when we show up at these meetings we can propose a site. Trying to do that is hard. I am not familiar with a lot of the zoning issues and things like that. I hope that makes sense.

What do you guys think? I'll start...

I live in Pinellas County - Clearwater

[raptor]

It has been said many times that the ATV people need to be together, that is a tough fight. Finding a place to meet with everyone in mind will not be an easy way to do this, with the price of gas, and people as far south as Miami and as far North at Tallahassee, that is a tough fight. I have found threads like ATVFlorida.com where there is a lot of bickering but when someone talks no one walks.. Another words when someone steps up to the plate they are not willing to join the fight. It seems like everyone here wants to go their own way.. and nothing for the good of the order. That seems to be the way of the OHV world. It is an entirly different world in the non off road world.

I think what you have said are all good points.. My thoughts are:

1. Fighting on your own won't get you alot of places. Emails on your own won't get you a place to ride.

2. There are ways to get places to ride and their are ways to deal with the government. Once you know how to deal with the buracracy you will have scored a plus and you might get a place to ride. That takes a lot of team work, and a lot of people working together, to bring it off. And people in all areas of Florida. Emails and demand for land probably won't get you anywhere. And you probably won't get anywhere dealing with the USFS. Buracy will probably say yes to you to get you out of their hair.

3. Being a non profit organization will help --- but certain grants (won't mention names of grants) will not buy you land. It has been tried by FTR, and other clubs. There are grants out there that will get you land to ride on. You have to know where to look and how to write the grants. It is not that easy.

4. Come up with a plan -- what kind of plan Does anyone have an idea Coming up with a plan to do this right can be a lot of work, with a lot of volunteers. Are you guys willing to spend the time to do this.. How much does it mean to you ...

5. The members that are going to extreme lengths to get things done are to be commended for their efforts. Again they seem to be single people doing what they can to save areas to ride.

6. There are other options to consider rather than going to the government also. Maybe better options..

Solutions .....

1. Instead of having everyone travel to a place of who knows where, why not ask the adminstrator of this site if you can have people in the chat room, and use the internet whenever you can. Saves money, time, gas, and it is convient. Once you get the administrators OK post a date and time for the chat room. Somehow you might have to limit the number of people in the chat room, not sure..

2. Have the agenda emailed to all participants -- that way everyone knows what to talk about and will have there opinions ready. If you don't have an agenda you will have a meeting out of choas.

3. Your riding area should not only be ATV orientated it should be for everyone, that is espescially useful when you are approaching the government.

I have posted just some of the solutions, a solution to riding areas are numerous. You just need the people to work with you.

A little about me - I currently ride a motorcycle on and off road, I ride the Ocala when I get a change, and I do ride an ATV occassionally. I ride an off road bicycle, and a road bicycle.
I have been all over on my off road bicycle to a lot of parks out of the area. Basically what you can learn at these parks you can transfer to the OHV World.
 
These are my thoughts -- Again there are ways to approach the government for riding areas, but you need the people.

If this thread seems harsh it was not meant to be that way .. I am a realist, I need not say more.

Joan
Stewards of the Land
Off Road Recreation Assoc.
Email: soloffroad4@aol.com

[SomBch]

Kudos to you! You have made the most sense out of everyone! I think the most important thing that anyone could understand about this subject is you can not demand anything from state , local  or federal governments. Its a delicate slope that must be gone down with great diligence. To be effective when speaking to public figures, state planners, engineers etc. you have to be  well prepared with talking points and have a good  understanding of the zoning and land use laws that could make or break your argument for consideration.This takes one heck of a person.You cant just present facts sometimes. Sometimes its your attitude,your personality etc. The points that where made above are very good, and need serious consideration.

[raptor]

Stewards will step up to the plate -- how many people do we have that are serious about this and are willing to put some time in and help.. along with a contribution ??

Only serious enquires only please ..

Joan
Stewards of the Land

[ananomaly]

I,m in for a family. 

[raptor]

Thanks ananomaly --- it is appreciated ---

Here is what i am going to do - I will tell you what stewards of the land is all about, I'll make a new thread called stewards of the Land, and we will see if the mods will make it a sticky for 2 weeks.. At the end of two weeks we will see how many people are really serious about this... bottom line check the threads..